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Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:15 am

Opus99 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Now it’s time for BA’s last piece of the transformation puzzle, the removal of high cost legacy cabin crew and a reduction of pilots wages.


BA pilots are some of the cheapest in the world flying for a major international carrier. The LGW A320 skippers are typically paid less than Easyjet captains. Cadet pilot pay at BA is lower than EasyJet and and Virgin. It's only after 20 years that a BA longhaul captain overtakes a Virgin captain's pay and the BA pilot has been flying 900 hours a year all that time as opposed to 750 at Virgin. I'm paid about 40-50% less than a United 777 FO with the same length of service. In fact, I'm paid about the same as a United 737 FO with 3 years service and I'm a relatively higher paid longhaul FO compared with the 1000+ new entrants we've had in the past 4 years.

There really isn't a justification for taking on pilot pay when benchmarked against elsewhere. They'll try it on, but the loss of goodwill will cost them their savings several times over, no doubt.

I think this is something that I find so crazy. How can you pay your pilots less than an LCC and even less than one of the smallest TATL competitors. Like wow. WW has to go because he has been the only constant in the past 15 years. It’s enough, I think with him out of the way maybe some sort of change can begin. Or what do you think?


What difference does it make what a UA FO earns? How many BA pilots can work in the US? IAG know what the demand and supply of pilots is currently, WW was a pilot at some stage of his career. They know there is nowhere to go for many - much like the rest of any workforce today. And as for entry level salaries being low, there are clearly plenty of people willing to take these jobs so why pay more? If U2 have to pay more to attract pilots to their brand than that is their problem.

Why would a legacy carrier have to pay their pilots more than a LCC? Are their aircraft different to fly because they have premium seats in them? Do BA short haul pilots provide a better service than U2 pilots? Maybe it's time to rethink all of our exceptionalism?
 
BA777FO
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:32 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

BA pilots are some of the cheapest in the world flying for a major international carrier. The LGW A320 skippers are typically paid less than Easyjet captains. Cadet pilot pay at BA is lower than EasyJet and and Virgin. It's only after 20 years that a BA longhaul captain overtakes a Virgin captain's pay and the BA pilot has been flying 900 hours a year all that time as opposed to 750 at Virgin. I'm paid about 40-50% less than a United 777 FO with the same length of service. In fact, I'm paid about the same as a United 737 FO with 3 years service and I'm a relatively higher paid longhaul FO compared with the 1000+ new entrants we've had in the past 4 years.

There really isn't a justification for taking on pilot pay when benchmarked against elsewhere. They'll try it on, but the loss of goodwill will cost them their savings several times over, no doubt.

I think this is something that I find so crazy. How can you pay your pilots less than an LCC and even less than one of the smallest TATL competitors. Like wow. WW has to go because he has been the only constant in the past 15 years. It’s enough, I think with him out of the way maybe some sort of change can begin. Or what do you think?


What difference does it make what a UA FO earns? How many BA pilots can work in the US? IAG know what the demand and supply of pilots is currently, WW was a pilot at some stage of his career. They know there is nowhere to go for many - much like the rest of any workforce today. And as for entry level salaries being low, there are clearly plenty of people willing to take these jobs so why pay more? If U2 have to pay more to attract pilots to their brand than that is their problem.

Why would a legacy carrier have to pay their pilots more than a LCC? Are their aircraft different to fly because they have premium seats in them? Do BA short haul pilots provide a better service than U2 pilots? Maybe it's time to rethink all of our exceptionalism?


Gosh, you sound like our management! Quite a few of us have the right to work and live in the USA. But that is besides the point. We all currently have the right to work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia etc and they all pay more too.

AA is our JBA partner across the Atlantic - we have a revenue sharing agreement - pricing is dictated in part not only by supply and demand but costs too. Given an AA crew flying between JFK and LHR costs ~50% more than a BA crew flying the same route in the same aircraft distorts the profit/loss equation.

But let's take you at face value with what you say; BA can afford to pay less because it's a bigger draw - yes, people took pay cuts and command opportunities at easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 to come to BA. That was mainly for two reasons; the draw of a longhaul network and that BA had previously never made anyone redundant. If you lose the second of those, is the first really a reason to take a pay cut for and stagnate on a seniority list that has a time to command for longhaul of 20+ years? BA were struggling to recruit just before this shutdown - they had scraped the barrel so far that they were starting to see new entrant failures on a rate they hadn't before. Now there'll be a bit of a glut, yes. But in 5 years time? People will be put off apllying to BA given the way they're treating staff at the moment. Retirements will start accelerating and there won't be the numbers or talent to fill them. That's their problem though.

As for do BA pilots provide a better service - BFD has proven to increase revenue by BA's own internal market research, so you could say so. It's also commonplace for all of us to regularly "save the day" after BA messes up somewhere along the line with system failure or staff shortages or supplier issues. That goodwill will vanish if they're not careful.

We'll see how long they manage to get away with some of the worst T&Cs for new joiners in the UK and Europe. But ultimately your second point undermines your first.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:09 am

BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think this is something that I find so crazy. How can you pay your pilots less than an LCC and even less than one of the smallest TATL competitors. Like wow. WW has to go because he has been the only constant in the past 15 years. It’s enough, I think with him out of the way maybe some sort of change can begin. Or what do you think?


What difference does it make what a UA FO earns? How many BA pilots can work in the US? IAG know what the demand and supply of pilots is currently, WW was a pilot at some stage of his career. They know there is nowhere to go for many - much like the rest of any workforce today. And as for entry level salaries being low, there are clearly plenty of people willing to take these jobs so why pay more? If U2 have to pay more to attract pilots to their brand than that is their problem.

Why would a legacy carrier have to pay their pilots more than a LCC? Are their aircraft different to fly because they have premium seats in them? Do BA short haul pilots provide a better service than U2 pilots? Maybe it's time to rethink all of our exceptionalism?


Gosh, you sound like our management! Quite a few of us have the right to work and live in the USA. But that is besides the point. We all currently have the right to work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia etc and they all pay more too.

AA is our JBA partner across the Atlantic - we have a revenue sharing agreement - pricing is dictated in part not only by supply and demand but costs too. Given an AA crew flying between JFK and LHR costs ~50% more than a BA crew flying the same route in the same aircraft distorts the profit/loss equation.

But let's take you at face value with what you say; BA can afford to pay less because it's a bigger draw - yes, people took pay cuts and command opportunities at easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 to come to BA. That was mainly for two reasons; the draw of a longhaul network and that BA had previously never made anyone redundant. If you lose the second of those, is the first really a reason to take a pay cut for and stagnate on a seniority list that has a time to command for longhaul of 20+ years? BA were struggling to recruit just before this shutdown - they had scraped the barrel so far that they were starting to see new entrant failures on a rate they hadn't before. Now there'll be a bit of a glut, yes. But in 5 years time? People will be put off apllying to BA given the way they're treating staff at the moment. Retirements will start accelerating and there won't be the numbers or talent to fill them. That's their problem though.

As for do BA pilots provide a better service - BFD has proven to increase revenue by BA's own internal market research, so you could say so. It's also commonplace for all of us to regularly "save the day" after BA messes up somewhere along the line with system failure or staff shortages or supplier issues. That goodwill will vanish if they're not careful.

We'll see how long they manage to get away with some of the worst T&Cs for new joiners in the UK and Europe. But ultimately your second point undermines your first.


If the JBA is determined in part by cost, surely BA will have a larger share of flying with lower pilot wages? Isn't that a good thing?

Sure, pilots have the right to work for AF, LH etc., some even in the US. Question remains why someone works for 40-50% less at BA? There are clearly advantages, even beyond past job security? The longhaul network remains as a draw and there aren't too many opportunities in the UK.

I might sound like management but I do think the world is changing and if there is an oversupply of staff now, airlines will take advantage of that fact. It's one of the most cut throat industries I know with a degree of management callousness not seen in other industries. But in my experience pilots have escaped the worst of this in the past unlike staff on the ground or cabin crew. It was only ever a matter of time and the writing has been on the wall for a long time.

I am sure IAG will adjust new entry conditions if they struggle to recruit in the future. Airlines have been in a massive growth phase over the past few years and it's only natural that recruiting becomes harder. I can't see this being a problem for a while yet.
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:18 am

Nightmareliner wrote:
Unite have now issued a vote of no confidence for Alex Cruz, and also an email to check everyone's details are correct in preparation for a potential ballot for industrial action. This is the exact same email they issued prior to the strike ballot of 2019 and 2017.

Something's on the horizon, and this isn't going to end anytime soon.

As we are considering all options to respond to BA, (...), we MUST be prepared to consider (...).


MFU have no need to update their message - with mixed fleet staff turnover they're talking to about a 75% different group
of people than previously. How many people from the 2017 strikes are still here?! From MFU perspective this is a fresh problem.
In certain and several ways it is not especially for BASSA. (I don't really know what communications they have sent out)

It could potentially end quickly and soon at least for MFU. Are the proposals unethical - yes. Are they unkind - definitely. Are
they opportunistic - probably. Are they illegal - doesn't appear that they are. The first thing MFU did was to cry: foul! illegal! But did they
spend member monies on good counsel - no. They spent time and money putting on #betrayal electronic graffiti shows in public spaces.
No one seems to have gone out and found the act of legistlature that made it illegal. The gov.uk ammended furlough rules within days
to allow union work to continue.

To my experience MFU lacks the balls to function without herd security. Can I say balls here?
 
BA777FO
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:47 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

What difference does it make what a UA FO earns? How many BA pilots can work in the US? IAG know what the demand and supply of pilots is currently, WW was a pilot at some stage of his career. They know there is nowhere to go for many - much like the rest of any workforce today. And as for entry level salaries being low, there are clearly plenty of people willing to take these jobs so why pay more? If U2 have to pay more to attract pilots to their brand than that is their problem.

Why would a legacy carrier have to pay their pilots more than a LCC? Are their aircraft different to fly because they have premium seats in them? Do BA short haul pilots provide a better service than U2 pilots? Maybe it's time to rethink all of our exceptionalism?


Gosh, you sound like our management! Quite a few of us have the right to work and live in the USA. But that is besides the point. We all currently have the right to work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia etc and they all pay more too.

AA is our JBA partner across the Atlantic - we have a revenue sharing agreement - pricing is dictated in part not only by supply and demand but costs too. Given an AA crew flying between JFK and LHR costs ~50% more than a BA crew flying the same route in the same aircraft distorts the profit/loss equation.

But let's take you at face value with what you say; BA can afford to pay less because it's a bigger draw - yes, people took pay cuts and command opportunities at easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 to come to BA. That was mainly for two reasons; the draw of a longhaul network and that BA had previously never made anyone redundant. If you lose the second of those, is the first really a reason to take a pay cut for and stagnate on a seniority list that has a time to command for longhaul of 20+ years? BA were struggling to recruit just before this shutdown - they had scraped the barrel so far that they were starting to see new entrant failures on a rate they hadn't before. Now there'll be a bit of a glut, yes. But in 5 years time? People will be put off apllying to BA given the way they're treating staff at the moment. Retirements will start accelerating and there won't be the numbers or talent to fill them. That's their problem though.

As for do BA pilots provide a better service - BFD has proven to increase revenue by BA's own internal market research, so you could say so. It's also commonplace for all of us to regularly "save the day" after BA messes up somewhere along the line with system failure or staff shortages or supplier issues. That goodwill will vanish if they're not careful.

We'll see how long they manage to get away with some of the worst T&Cs for new joiners in the UK and Europe. But ultimately your second point undermines your first.


If the JBA is determined in part by cost, surely BA will have a larger share of flying with lower pilot wages? Isn't that a good thing?

Sure, pilots have the right to work for AF, LH etc., some even in the US. Question remains why someone works for 40-50% less at BA? There are clearly advantages, even beyond past job security? The longhaul network remains as a draw and there aren't too many opportunities in the UK.

I might sound like management but I do think the world is changing and if there is an oversupply of staff now, airlines will take advantage of that fact. It's one of the most cut throat industries I know with a degree of management callousness not seen in other industries. But in my experience pilots have escaped the worst of this in the past unlike staff on the ground or cabin crew. It was only ever a matter of time and the writing has been on the wall for a long time.

I am sure IAG will adjust new entry conditions if they struggle to recruit in the future. Airlines have been in a massive growth phase over the past few years and it's only natural that recruiting becomes harder. I can't see this being a problem for a while yet.


Crew costs are only part of the equation when it comes to JBA flight allocation. But it does have a distorting effect on pricing. It's interesting that Delta pilots kicked up quite a fuss about a lot of their flying being outsourced to cheaper crews at KLM and Air France. I expect American pilots will come out with something similar when the dust settles.

Why do people stay at BA? Largely seniority - people tend to leave airlines where seniority is largely meaningless rather than where it counts for something. Leaving an airline where you have a lot of seniority to start all over again at the bottom isn't too appealing. A consultant at Guys hospital is not going to move to Leeds General Infirmary and become a junior doctor. That's what we'd be expected to do, so pilots tend to fight for their career against short term executives who are just looking to expand their yearly bonus before they go and ruin another company.

The other reason is the UK - most of us have family here. A significant number last year left to join Aer Lingus, KLM, Virgin, some even went back to Jet2 and easyJet. Just goes to show how things are - that was unheard of a few years ago.

You say pilots have been largely unaffected - not sure where your evidence for that is. Indexed to 2009 our pay is still below the rate of inflation. BA refused last year to initiate a profit share - in that case it's only fair we don't share so much of the losses. Cabin crew and ground staff don't pay £100,000+ for their training nor does it take 2 years to get them qualified. It stands to reason this is harder to recruit into and while there may be a short-term oversupply of low hours pilots there'll still be a shortage of experienced and type-rated crew. Many that are being made redundant this time around/taking early retirement won't rejoin the industry.

But then that'll serve us well when the upturn happens. The current tactics being used are awful all round - the loss of crews' goodwill can't be put on a balance sheet but it'll manifest itself in time. No doubt by then the CEO & COO will have been moved out or moved on leaving someone else to clear up their mess.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:36 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Gosh, you sound like our management! Quite a few of us have the right to work and live in the USA. But that is besides the point. We all currently have the right to work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia etc and they all pay more too.

AA is our JBA partner across the Atlantic - we have a revenue sharing agreement - pricing is dictated in part not only by supply and demand but costs too. Given an AA crew flying between JFK and LHR costs ~50% more than a BA crew flying the same route in the same aircraft distorts the profit/loss equation.

But let's take you at face value with what you say; BA can afford to pay less because it's a bigger draw - yes, people took pay cuts and command opportunities at easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 to come to BA. That was mainly for two reasons; the draw of a longhaul network and that BA had previously never made anyone redundant. If you lose the second of those, is the first really a reason to take a pay cut for and stagnate on a seniority list that has a time to command for longhaul of 20+ years? BA were struggling to recruit just before this shutdown - they had scraped the barrel so far that they were starting to see new entrant failures on a rate they hadn't before. Now there'll be a bit of a glut, yes. But in 5 years time? People will be put off apllying to BA given the way they're treating staff at the moment. Retirements will start accelerating and there won't be the numbers or talent to fill them. That's their problem though.

As for do BA pilots provide a better service - BFD has proven to increase revenue by BA's own internal market research, so you could say so. It's also commonplace for all of us to regularly "save the day" after BA messes up somewhere along the line with system failure or staff shortages or supplier issues. That goodwill will vanish if they're not careful.

We'll see how long they manage to get away with some of the worst T&Cs for new joiners in the UK and Europe. But ultimately your second point undermines your first.


If the JBA is determined in part by cost, surely BA will have a larger share of flying with lower pilot wages? Isn't that a good thing?

Sure, pilots have the right to work for AF, LH etc., some even in the US. Question remains why someone works for 40-50% less at BA? There are clearly advantages, even beyond past job security? The longhaul network remains as a draw and there aren't too many opportunities in the UK.

I might sound like management but I do think the world is changing and if there is an oversupply of staff now, airlines will take advantage of that fact. It's one of the most cut throat industries I know with a degree of management callousness not seen in other industries. But in my experience pilots have escaped the worst of this in the past unlike staff on the ground or cabin crew. It was only ever a matter of time and the writing has been on the wall for a long time.

I am sure IAG will adjust new entry conditions if they struggle to recruit in the future. Airlines have been in a massive growth phase over the past few years and it's only natural that recruiting becomes harder. I can't see this being a problem for a while yet.


Crew costs are only part of the equation when it comes to JBA flight allocation. But it does have a distorting effect on pricing. It's interesting that Delta pilots kicked up quite a fuss about a lot of their flying being outsourced to cheaper crews at KLM and Air France. I expect American pilots will come out with something similar when the dust settles.

Why do people stay at BA? Largely seniority - people tend to leave airlines where seniority is largely meaningless rather than where it counts for something. Leaving an airline where you have a lot of seniority to start all over again at the bottom isn't too appealing. A consultant at Guys hospital is not going to move to Leeds General Infirmary and become a junior doctor. That's what we'd be expected to do, so pilots tend to fight for their career against short term executives who are just looking to expand their yearly bonus before they go and ruin another company.

The other reason is the UK - most of us have family here. A significant number last year left to join Aer Lingus, KLM, Virgin, some even went back to Jet2 and easyJet. Just goes to show how things are - that was unheard of a few years ago.

You say pilots have been largely unaffected - not sure where your evidence for that is. Indexed to 2009 our pay is still below the rate of inflation. BA refused last year to initiate a profit share - in that case it's only fair we don't share so much of the losses. Cabin crew and ground staff don't pay £100,000+ for their training nor does it take 2 years to get them qualified. It stands to reason this is harder to recruit into and while there may be a short-term oversupply of low hours pilots there'll still be a shortage of experienced and type-rated crew. Many that are being made redundant this time around/taking early retirement won't rejoin the industry.

But then that'll serve us well when the upturn happens. The current tactics being used are awful all round - the loss of crews' goodwill can't be put on a balance sheet but it'll manifest itself in time. No doubt by then the CEO & COO will have been moved out or moved on leaving someone else to clear up their mess.


I can see your points and I agree it's appalling how BA/IAG management behave. I just think pilots need to start looking a bit beyond their own turf and see what is going on and has been going on around them. The profit share point is making that case very neatly. A lot of other groups did not share in profits either and they are clearly expected to shoulder their part of the pain. This is a crisis that impacts on everyone...even pilots.
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:32 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
Nightmareliner wrote:
JumboMaiden wrote:

Lordy. Strike from what? I haven't had my butt on a crew seat for almost 3 months!


That's what I can't get my head around. Unlike the airplanes, the plans are all up in the air.
I get a sense that Unites' back is up against a wall here, with little other option. But I could be wrong.


Unite are issuing a vote of no confidence? What does that even mean? Are they a key shareholder in IAG so they can vote to have him removed from the board? I am not sure anyone in IAG cares if cabin crew have confidence in Alex Cruz or not.


Problem is, if you raise that (or anything that isn't Keep The Faith) to other members, you get called all sorts of names or accused of supporting the company. You don't get taken seriously for raising valid points.


JumboMaiden wrote:
Nightmareliner wrote:
Unite have now issued a vote of no confidence for Alex Cruz, and also an email to check everyone's details are correct in preparation for a potential ballot for industrial action. This is the exact same email they issued prior to the strike ballot of 2019 and 2017.

Something's on the horizon, and this isn't going to end anytime soon.

As we are considering all options to respond to BA, (...), we MUST be prepared to consider (...).


MFU have no need to update their message - with mixed fleet staff turnover they're talking to about a 75% different group
of people than previously. How many people from the 2017 strikes are still here?! From MFU perspective this is a fresh problem.
In certain and several ways it is not especially for BASSA. (I don't really know what communications they have sent out)

It could potentially end quickly and soon at least for MFU. Are the proposals unethical - yes. Are they unkind - definitely. Are
they opportunistic - probably. Are they illegal - doesn't appear that they are. The first thing MFU did was to cry: foul! illegal! But did they
spend member monies on good counsel - no. They spent time and money putting on #betrayal electronic graffiti shows in public spaces.
No one seems to have gone out and found the act of legistlature that made it illegal. The gov.uk ammended furlough rules within days
to allow union work to continue.

To my experience MFU lacks the balls to function without herd security. Can I say balls here?


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's not MFU calling the shots. Unite have overall control on the path they chose to take in retaliation to BA. But the legacy union (BASSA) have long been able to twist the arm of Unite to go down the path that they chose, even if it's not beneficial for MFU / Mixed Fleet.

In 2019, there was this pay deal dispute. MFU & the vast majority of MF did not agree with it, as peanuts on top of peanuts = peanuts. We very nearly went on strike over it. But BASSA found the deal to be good, and convinced Unite to accept the deal, subsequently having it imposed it on MF. We were called unruly children for bringing it up and complaining about it.
Now Unite call that deal "poverty pay" simply because it's coming back to bite them on the arse. They didn't care that the deal was "poverty pay" last year. MF are just along for the ride. MFU do not truly represent us in the same way BASSA represents legacy. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

Since then I lost all faith in Unite as a whole.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:51 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

If the JBA is determined in part by cost, surely BA will have a larger share of flying with lower pilot wages? Isn't that a good thing?

Sure, pilots have the right to work for AF, LH etc., some even in the US. Question remains why someone works for 40-50% less at BA? There are clearly advantages, even beyond past job security? The longhaul network remains as a draw and there aren't too many opportunities in the UK.

I might sound like management but I do think the world is changing and if there is an oversupply of staff now, airlines will take advantage of that fact. It's one of the most cut throat industries I know with a degree of management callousness not seen in other industries. But in my experience pilots have escaped the worst of this in the past unlike staff on the ground or cabin crew. It was only ever a matter of time and the writing has been on the wall for a long time.

I am sure IAG will adjust new entry conditions if they struggle to recruit in the future. Airlines have been in a massive growth phase over the past few years and it's only natural that recruiting becomes harder. I can't see this being a problem for a while yet.


Crew costs are only part of the equation when it comes to JBA flight allocation. But it does have a distorting effect on pricing. It's interesting that Delta pilots kicked up quite a fuss about a lot of their flying being outsourced to cheaper crews at KLM and Air France. I expect American pilots will come out with something similar when the dust settles.

Why do people stay at BA? Largely seniority - people tend to leave airlines where seniority is largely meaningless rather than where it counts for something. Leaving an airline where you have a lot of seniority to start all over again at the bottom isn't too appealing. A consultant at Guys hospital is not going to move to Leeds General Infirmary and become a junior doctor. That's what we'd be expected to do, so pilots tend to fight for their career against short term executives who are just looking to expand their yearly bonus before they go and ruin another company.

The other reason is the UK - most of us have family here. A significant number last year left to join Aer Lingus, KLM, Virgin, some even went back to Jet2 and easyJet. Just goes to show how things are - that was unheard of a few years ago.

You say pilots have been largely unaffected - not sure where your evidence for that is. Indexed to 2009 our pay is still below the rate of inflation. BA refused last year to initiate a profit share - in that case it's only fair we don't share so much of the losses. Cabin crew and ground staff don't pay £100,000+ for their training nor does it take 2 years to get them qualified. It stands to reason this is harder to recruit into and while there may be a short-term oversupply of low hours pilots there'll still be a shortage of experienced and type-rated crew. Many that are being made redundant this time around/taking early retirement won't rejoin the industry.

But then that'll serve us well when the upturn happens. The current tactics being used are awful all round - the loss of crews' goodwill can't be put on a balance sheet but it'll manifest itself in time. No doubt by then the CEO & COO will have been moved out or moved on leaving someone else to clear up their mess.


I can see your points and I agree it's appalling how BA/IAG management behave. I just think pilots need to start looking a bit beyond their own turf and see what is going on and has been going on around them. The profit share point is making that case very neatly. A lot of other groups did not share in profits either and they are clearly expected to shoulder their part of the pain. This is a crisis that impacts on everyone...even pilots.


With all due respect I think you're coming from a point of ignorance - you say we need to see what's going on around us and we should shoulder our part of the pain. That's why we were the first work group in BA to take a pay cut at the outset of Covid (even before our own CEO announced what cut he'd take) and we also took the largest percentage cut (bigger than Willie Walsh). So we've taken more than our fair share of pain so far and no doubt we'll continue to lead as we always do.

Our point is if you don't want us to take part in the good times with the profit share we shouldn't take any permanent hits - like Aer Lingus and many others have agreed, this is a temporary problem so a temporary solution should suffice.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:35 am

BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Crew costs are only part of the equation when it comes to JBA flight allocation. But it does have a distorting effect on pricing. It's interesting that Delta pilots kicked up quite a fuss about a lot of their flying being outsourced to cheaper crews at KLM and Air France. I expect American pilots will come out with something similar when the dust settles.

Why do people stay at BA? Largely seniority - people tend to leave airlines where seniority is largely meaningless rather than where it counts for something. Leaving an airline where you have a lot of seniority to start all over again at the bottom isn't too appealing. A consultant at Guys hospital is not going to move to Leeds General Infirmary and become a junior doctor. That's what we'd be expected to do, so pilots tend to fight for their career against short term executives who are just looking to expand their yearly bonus before they go and ruin another company.

The other reason is the UK - most of us have family here. A significant number last year left to join Aer Lingus, KLM, Virgin, some even went back to Jet2 and easyJet. Just goes to show how things are - that was unheard of a few years ago.

You say pilots have been largely unaffected - not sure where your evidence for that is. Indexed to 2009 our pay is still below the rate of inflation. BA refused last year to initiate a profit share - in that case it's only fair we don't share so much of the losses. Cabin crew and ground staff don't pay £100,000+ for their training nor does it take 2 years to get them qualified. It stands to reason this is harder to recruit into and while there may be a short-term oversupply of low hours pilots there'll still be a shortage of experienced and type-rated crew. Many that are being made redundant this time around/taking early retirement won't rejoin the industry.

But then that'll serve us well when the upturn happens. The current tactics being used are awful all round - the loss of crews' goodwill can't be put on a balance sheet but it'll manifest itself in time. No doubt by then the CEO & COO will have been moved out or moved on leaving someone else to clear up their mess.


I can see your points and I agree it's appalling how BA/IAG management behave. I just think pilots need to start looking a bit beyond their own turf and see what is going on and has been going on around them. The profit share point is making that case very neatly. A lot of other groups did not share in profits either and they are clearly expected to shoulder their part of the pain. This is a crisis that impacts on everyone...even pilots.


With all due respect I think you're coming from a point of ignorance - you say we need to see what's going on around us and we should shoulder our part of the pain. That's why we were the first work group in BA to take a pay cut at the outset of Covid (even before our own CEO announced what cut he'd take) and we also took the largest percentage cut (bigger than Willie Walsh). So we've taken more than our fair share of pain so far and no doubt we'll continue to lead as we always do.

Our point is if you don't want us to take part in the good times with the profit share we shouldn't take any permanent hits - like Aer Lingus and many others have agreed, this is a temporary problem so a temporary solution should suffice.


With all due respect, if you want guaranteed participation in your company's profits and losses invest your money in its shares. It's your board's decision if they offer a profit share or not. And in hindsight, not offering it seems a sound decision. It bolstered its cash reserves and enables it to survive this crisis. Don't forget that unlike France and Germany, a Tory government will not plough £9 billion into BA to save it. You are being paid a (reasonably good) wage in a reasonably safe (until very recently) job. Why do you think you are entitled to anything above and beyond? Because you gave up some money in the past to safe the company and with it your own jobs?
 
BA777FO
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:52 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

I can see your points and I agree it's appalling how BA/IAG management behave. I just think pilots need to start looking a bit beyond their own turf and see what is going on and has been going on around them. The profit share point is making that case very neatly. A lot of other groups did not share in profits either and they are clearly expected to shoulder their part of the pain. This is a crisis that impacts on everyone...even pilots.


With all due respect I think you're coming from a point of ignorance - you say we need to see what's going on around us and we should shoulder our part of the pain. That's why we were the first work group in BA to take a pay cut at the outset of Covid (even before our own CEO announced what cut he'd take) and we also took the largest percentage cut (bigger than Willie Walsh). So we've taken more than our fair share of pain so far and no doubt we'll continue to lead as we always do.

Our point is if you don't want us to take part in the good times with the profit share we shouldn't take any permanent hits - like Aer Lingus and many others have agreed, this is a temporary problem so a temporary solution should suffice.


With all due respect, if you want guaranteed participation in your company's profits and losses invest your money in its shares. It's your board's decision if they offer a profit share or not. And in hindsight, not offering it seems a sound decision. It bolstered its cash reserves and enables it to survive this crisis. Don't forget that unlike France and Germany, a Tory government will not plough £9 billion into BA to save it. You are being paid a (reasonably good) wage in a reasonably safe (until very recently) job. Why do you think you are entitled to anything above and beyond? Because you gave up some money in the past to safe the company and with it your own jobs?


I am a shareholder. Can't say I think they've been making sound commercial decisions lately though. While every other airline is focused on restarting their operation BA is focused on picking a fight with its staff.

You're right, it's the board's decision whether or not to offer a profit share. Pilots will remember that it's our decision whether or not we go into discretion next time, or whether we allow our agreements to be compromised and depart on time anyway. It's not one way traffic. Not offering a profit share wasn't a sound decision, you mistakenly assume that profit share was allocated instead to cash; it wasn't, it was used to pay dividends to shareholders (as well as losing 10 times as much during a strike over the issue).

Why are we entitled to more? I think you misunderstand what's being said. We were the first group to take a pay cut, we have taken the biggest cut of any work group too. Our point is that this is a temporary problem so it requires a temporary solution. Permanent cuts will lead to a permanent loss of trust and goodwill and that'll cost more than any saving that'll be made.
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:53 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

I can see your points and I agree it's appalling how BA/IAG management behave. I just think pilots need to start looking a bit beyond their own turf and see what is going on and has been going on around them. The profit share point is making that case very neatly. A lot of other groups did not share in profits either and they are clearly expected to shoulder their part of the pain. This is a crisis that impacts on everyone...even pilots.


With all due respect I think you're coming from a point of ignorance - you say we need to see what's going on around us and we should shoulder our part of the pain. That's why we were the first work group in BA to take a pay cut at the outset of Covid (even before our own CEO announced what cut he'd take) and we also took the largest percentage cut (bigger than Willie Walsh). So we've taken more than our fair share of pain so far and no doubt we'll continue to lead as we always do.

Our point is if you don't want us to take part in the good times with the profit share we shouldn't take any permanent hits - like Aer Lingus and many others have agreed, this is a temporary problem so a temporary solution should suffice.


With all due respect, if you want guaranteed participation in your company's profits and losses invest your money in its shares. It's your board's decision if they offer a profit share or not. And in hindsight, not offering it seems a sound decision. It bolstered its cash reserves and enables it to survive this crisis. Don't forget that unlike France and Germany, a Tory government will not plough £9 billion into BA to save it. You are being paid a (reasonably good) wage in a reasonably safe (until very recently) job. Why do you think you are entitled to anything above and beyond? Because you gave up some money in the past to safe the company and with it your own jobs?


I agree with BA777FO above - respect runs both ways. The entire company is being shafted, and BA/IAG would rather spend more on breaking strike action than ever give in.

During the 2017 cabin crew strike they spent more breaking the strike than giving the pay rise. EG paying QR to cover us, or paid crew £30 for toiletries if they didn't check a bag in, or paid for taxis for crew to come to work. There was so much more.

IAG are on a mission to devalue everyones contracts, not just within BA but across the industry through establishing precedent. When one airline does it, everyone else follows suit relatively quickly.

When you say the flight crew are paid a reasonably good wage, you miss the point that it's lower than the average across the rest of Europe. Those very profits you describe are created by the staff. IAG can destroy staff moral all it wants, but eventually the costs of staff doing the bare minimum will take it's toll on profits. As BA777FO mentioned, things like discretion - where crew would rather the flight gets cancelled than go into discretion simply because the company won't recognise the fact that the crew saved them tens of thousands of pounds.

I love British Airways as a company, and I enjoy my job. And the financial stability of the company has made it a relatively secure job in a volatile industry, but you clearly miss the point that if you push staff moral to the brink and cut costs that far - it has the reverse effects on profits.

There comes a point where it just becomes pure greed. IAG are extremely ostentatious in their wealth at the expense of the very people who created it for them.
 
uta999
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:19 pm

BA/AIG have to buy around 200 new aircraft over the next ten years, just to keep up with everyone else. That costs a lot of money.

The management are simply doing what any of us would do if we were in charge. Cut costs and improve productivity. Staff moral at the moment is quite low down the list of priorities, given that only around 1% of the fleet is earning any money at the moment.

The unions are still living in the past. They think they have power over the company. In reality they are irrelevant in today’s employment market. Others will simply come in and do virtually the same job for less.

That is the reality of a successful business.
Your computer just got better
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:33 pm

uta999 wrote:
BA/AIG have to buy around 200 new aircraft over the next ten years, just to keep up with everyone else. That costs a lot of money.

The management are simply doing what any of us would do if we were in charge. Cut costs and improve productivity. Staff moral at the moment is quite low down the list of priorities, given that only around 1% of the fleet is earning any money at the moment.

The unions are still living in the past. They think they have power over the company. In reality they are irrelevant in today’s employment market. Others will simply come in and do virtually the same job for less.

That is the reality of a successful business.


If management are doing what anyone else would do, why are IAG the ONLY airline / consolidated airline group acting in this manner?

No staff member at BA is saying there shouldn't be redundancies, and nobody is saying we aren't willing to make temporary sacrifices.

Note how I emphasize temporary. Why should we make permanent sacrifices to a problem that is (going by IATA and IAG figures) going to take around 4 years to rectify? I don't fully agree or understand what Unite are doing, but this is a smash and grab by IAG (particularly Willie Walsh) to do something he's tried to do for 15 years. COVID-19 is just the perfect reason.

When things are back to normal and IAG are making billions again (mainly of the back of BA who are the breadwinner of the group) we won't see any improvements.

You're right, IAG don't value staff moral. But there is a direct correlation between staff moral and customer satisfaction. And it's the staff that keep the customers coming back. Without either of them, that profit vanishes quicker than its made.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:38 pm

I think the indefensible element of this is that BA management, in response to a temporary problem, are proposing a permanent set of cuts as well as shedding staff (which they’ve wanted to do for some time).

It is obvious to anyone that it is naked opportunism and whether or not it is forced through the management must now accept the significant negative consequences of that choice which seems to be the destruction of staff morale (when most businesses are doing what they can to help staff) and the burning of a significant volume of political capital.

It’ll be interesting to see the repercussions of this in 10 years.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9726
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:42 pm

A major cut in employee wages across the economy is unlikely to stimulate demand for long haul flights.

People will either not have the money, or will be reluctant to spend.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10333
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:06 am

uta999 wrote:
BA/AIG have to buy around 200 new aircraft over the next ten years, just to keep up with everyone else.

So you believe the landscape will be roughly unchanged, that the funding being provided by governments will be enough to prevent the elimination of a number of airlines?
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:29 am

Nightmareliner wrote:
uta999 wrote:
BA/AIG have to buy around 200 new aircraft over the next ten years, just to keep up with everyone else. That costs a lot of money.

The management are simply doing what any of us would do if we were in charge. Cut costs and improve productivity. Staff moral at the moment is quite low down the list of priorities, given that only around 1% of the fleet is earning any money at the moment.

The unions are still living in the past. They think they have power over the company. In reality they are irrelevant in today’s employment market. Others will simply come in and do virtually the same job for less.

That is the reality of a successful business.


If management are doing what anyone else would do, why are IAG the ONLY airline / consolidated airline group acting in this manner?

No staff member at BA is saying there shouldn't be redundancies, and nobody is saying we aren't willing to make temporary sacrifices.

Note how I emphasize temporary. Why should we make permanent sacrifices to a problem that is (going by IATA and IAG figures) going to take around 4 years to rectify? I don't fully agree or understand what Unite are doing, but this is a smash and grab by IAG (particularly Willie Walsh) to do something he's tried to do for 15 years. COVID-19 is just the perfect reason.

When things are back to normal and IAG are making billions again (mainly of the back of BA who are the breadwinner of the group) we won't see any improvements.

You're right, IAG don't value staff moral. But there is a direct correlation between staff moral and customer satisfaction. And it's the staff that keep the customers coming back. Without either of them, that profit vanishes quicker than its made.


The writing has been on the wall at BA since the introduction of Mixed Fleet. It was designed specifically for people to come in, fly for a few years and leave again. No more long term career, no more career progression to speak off, no more costly pension obligations. That has set the direction of travel. No recognition of the benefits that come with years of experience in customer service - they are just not valued or wanted.

What happens now is just the logical next step. It's the culmination of the Anglo Saxon version of free market capitalism - no sense of social responsibility, everything for share holder value.
 
AA100
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:57 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:04 am

BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think this is something that I find so crazy. How can you pay your pilots less than an LCC and even less than one of the smallest TATL competitors. Like wow. WW has to go because he has been the only constant in the past 15 years. It’s enough, I think with him out of the way maybe some sort of change can begin. Or what do you think?


What difference does it make what a UA FO earns? How many BA pilots can work in the US? IAG know what the demand and supply of pilots is currently, WW was a pilot at some stage of his career. They know there is nowhere to go for many - much like the rest of any workforce today. And as for entry level salaries being low, there are clearly plenty of people willing to take these jobs so why pay more? If U2 have to pay more to attract pilots to their brand than that is their problem.

Why would a legacy carrier have to pay their pilots more than a LCC? Are their aircraft different to fly because they have premium seats in them? Do BA short haul pilots provide a better service than U2 pilots? Maybe it's time to rethink all of our exceptionalism?


Gosh, you sound like our management! Quite a few of us have the right to work and live in the USA. But that is besides the point. We all currently have the right to work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia etc and they all pay more too.

AA is our JBA partner across the Atlantic - we have a revenue sharing agreement - pricing is dictated in part not only by supply and demand but costs too. Given an AA crew flying between JFK and LHR costs ~50% more than a BA crew flying the same route in the same aircraft distorts the profit/loss equation.

But let's take you at face value with what you say; BA can afford to pay less because it's a bigger draw - yes, people took pay cuts and command opportunities at easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 to come to BA. That was mainly for two reasons; the draw of a longhaul network and that BA had previously never made anyone redundant. If you lose the second of those, is the first really a reason to take a pay cut for and stagnate on a seniority list that has a time to command for longhaul of 20+ years? BA were struggling to recruit just before this shutdown - they had scraped the barrel so far that they were starting to see new entrant failures on a rate they hadn't before. Now there'll be a bit of a glut, yes. But in 5 years time? People will be put off apllying to BA given the way they're treating staff at the moment. Retirements will start accelerating and there won't be the numbers or talent to fill them. That's their problem though.

As for do BA pilots provide a better service - BFD has proven to increase revenue by BA's own internal market research, so you could say so. It's also commonplace for all of us to regularly "save the day" after BA messes up somewhere along the line with system failure or staff shortages or supplier issues. That goodwill will vanish if they're not careful.

We'll see how long they manage to get away with some of the worst T&Cs for new joiners in the UK and Europe. But ultimately your second point undermines your first.


The JB does NOT share costs. It is a revenue sharing agreement that does not include each carrier’s costs, therefore how much it costs each airline to pay a pilot to fly a shared route does not come into it.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:29 am

AA100 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

What difference does it make what a UA FO earns? How many BA pilots can work in the US? IAG know what the demand and supply of pilots is currently, WW was a pilot at some stage of his career. They know there is nowhere to go for many - much like the rest of any workforce today. And as for entry level salaries being low, there are clearly plenty of people willing to take these jobs so why pay more? If U2 have to pay more to attract pilots to their brand than that is their problem.

Why would a legacy carrier have to pay their pilots more than a LCC? Are their aircraft different to fly because they have premium seats in them? Do BA short haul pilots provide a better service than U2 pilots? Maybe it's time to rethink all of our exceptionalism?


Gosh, you sound like our management! Quite a few of us have the right to work and live in the USA. But that is besides the point. We all currently have the right to work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia etc and they all pay more too.

AA is our JBA partner across the Atlantic - we have a revenue sharing agreement - pricing is dictated in part not only by supply and demand but costs too. Given an AA crew flying between JFK and LHR costs ~50% more than a BA crew flying the same route in the same aircraft distorts the profit/loss equation.

But let's take you at face value with what you say; BA can afford to pay less because it's a bigger draw - yes, people took pay cuts and command opportunities at easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 to come to BA. That was mainly for two reasons; the draw of a longhaul network and that BA had previously never made anyone redundant. If you lose the second of those, is the first really a reason to take a pay cut for and stagnate on a seniority list that has a time to command for longhaul of 20+ years? BA were struggling to recruit just before this shutdown - they had scraped the barrel so far that they were starting to see new entrant failures on a rate they hadn't before. Now there'll be a bit of a glut, yes. But in 5 years time? People will be put off apllying to BA given the way they're treating staff at the moment. Retirements will start accelerating and there won't be the numbers or talent to fill them. That's their problem though.

As for do BA pilots provide a better service - BFD has proven to increase revenue by BA's own internal market research, so you could say so. It's also commonplace for all of us to regularly "save the day" after BA messes up somewhere along the line with system failure or staff shortages or supplier issues. That goodwill will vanish if they're not careful.

We'll see how long they manage to get away with some of the worst T&Cs for new joiners in the UK and Europe. But ultimately your second point undermines your first.


The JB does NOT share costs. It is a revenue sharing agreement that does not include each carrier’s costs, therefore how much it costs each airline to pay a pilot to fly a shared route does not come into it.


Re-read what I wrote: I said there is a revenue sharing agreement. I never said costs were shared. The cost of the operation has an impact on pricing just ae supply and demand does and it affects yields and margins.

Don't accuse me of saying something I didn't say!
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:42 am

BA777FO wrote:
AA100 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Gosh, you sound like our management! Quite a few of us have the right to work and live in the USA. But that is besides the point. We all currently have the right to work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia etc and they all pay more too.

AA is our JBA partner across the Atlantic - we have a revenue sharing agreement - pricing is dictated in part not only by supply and demand but costs too. Given an AA crew flying between JFK and LHR costs ~50% more than a BA crew flying the same route in the same aircraft distorts the profit/loss equation.

But let's take you at face value with what you say; BA can afford to pay less because it's a bigger draw - yes, people took pay cuts and command opportunities at easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 to come to BA. That was mainly for two reasons; the draw of a longhaul network and that BA had previously never made anyone redundant. If you lose the second of those, is the first really a reason to take a pay cut for and stagnate on a seniority list that has a time to command for longhaul of 20+ years? BA were struggling to recruit just before this shutdown - they had scraped the barrel so far that they were starting to see new entrant failures on a rate they hadn't before. Now there'll be a bit of a glut, yes. But in 5 years time? People will be put off apllying to BA given the way they're treating staff at the moment. Retirements will start accelerating and there won't be the numbers or talent to fill them. That's their problem though.

As for do BA pilots provide a better service - BFD has proven to increase revenue by BA's own internal market research, so you could say so. It's also commonplace for all of us to regularly "save the day" after BA messes up somewhere along the line with system failure or staff shortages or supplier issues. That goodwill will vanish if they're not careful.

We'll see how long they manage to get away with some of the worst T&Cs for new joiners in the UK and Europe. But ultimately your second point undermines your first.


The JB does NOT share costs. It is a revenue sharing agreement that does not include each carrier’s costs, therefore how much it costs each airline to pay a pilot to fly a shared route does not come into it.


Re-read what I wrote: I said there is a revenue sharing agreement. I never said costs were shared. The cost of the operation has an impact on pricing just ae supply and demand does and it affects yields and margins.

Don't accuse me of saying something I didn't say!


Unlike what you think, pricing at BA is predominantly a function of supply and demand. The system is optimising revenue for every seat on every flight. The limitations of course are the number of fare types you can file in a GDS. Cost will simply
determine if a flight can run profitably and if it will continue to operate as a result. You seem to imply that cost distorts the JBA and that is simply not the case - as pointed out it's a revenue sharing agreement. If anything, the lower cost at BA will make marginal routes possible for BA where they might not be for AA.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:13 am

Whether people would like to acknowledge it or not, what we now have is a function of supply and demand. Airlines have historically been forced to pay more for pilots to keep them because they would have easily left for greener pastures. It was not hard to hear of airlines spending money to train pilots and the first chance they had to leave, they left. This is simply a role reversal.

If anyone thinks that this is going to be the first airline to try and do this, then they are mistaken. It will happen across the industry because airlines are going to become thinner. Those that do not initiate cuts will automatically not be competitive going forward. This is what it essentially what it boils down to.
 
Opus99
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:53 pm

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/06/1 ... /#comments

I’ve heard multiple times that this deal is improved for mixed fleet but not legacy. T&Cs remain the same for legacy and slightly improved in some areas

For many legacy it’s still a BIG pay cut. But how you have crew doing the same work with different pay I don’t know.

This new pay is largely the same as what Cabin crew are paid in VS
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 872
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:59 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/06/19/british-airways-reveals-improved-cabin-crew-pay-offer-a-big-win-for-mixed-fleet/comment-page-1/#comments


But.... my doubt is, under those numbers proposed at 28,000 for cabin crews 31,000 for Lead Cabin Crew and 39,000 for Managers....what number would BA still need to lay off? Or would that mean that if that was to be accepted by unions they could get through this without any redundancies?
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 pm

a350lover wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/06/19/british-airways-reveals-improved-cabin-crew-pay-offer-a-big-win-for-mixed-fleet/comment-page-1/#comments


But.... my doubt is, under those numbers proposed at 28,000 for cabin crews 31,000 for Lead Cabin Crew and 39,000 for Managers....what number would BA still need to lay off? Or would that mean that if that was to be accepted by unions they could get through this without any redundancies?



The (updated) proposal today said redundancies are still likley.

The proposal is an extension of MF practises but I wouldn't call it a big win because there were still questionable things in the original proposal that haven't been taken out or ammended.
A mention of MF disciplinary etc. practises being the fleet norm should be taken into consideration by WW and EF who have not generally had any exposure to the punitive and some very petty measures that manage MF.
The working changes for both fleets WW and EF would be pretty significant apart from money and from people I know on both, not wanted.
VR went out to WW and EF yesterday (friend on EF hasn't received anything - she is from the BMI take over). They have until June 27th
to accept or decline. I guess then they will be able to adjust the redundancy figures.
I hope people will make sound judgements for themselves and not depend on the union which so far has done less than nothing to be of
use or benefit to anyone and that the militant types will not sign up with one primary disruptive intention in mind.

Maybe Nightmareliner has more info I have missed.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:52 pm

It's been BA's practice for many years to first offer VR and see how many people accept it. I expect that the recent offering includes a notification that any subsequent redundancy offering will be on less favourable terms.

Your friend on EF came across on TUPE and undoubtedly is on a lower salary than her colleagues. If she were to accept a new contract she might well be no worse off.
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:34 pm

Its good to see some level headed intelligent people who have done well defending my original statements on this carrier and its mafia style conglomerate. Those of you that continue to stand up for this disgusting Capitalism where EVERYTHING IS SOLELY FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS, and i suppose that means the multi millions, sometimes over hundreds of millions in pay/bonus/incentives and parachutes for a small executive group, something is seriously wrong with you.

BA/IAG specifically are blatent with this behaviour, that is why i called them out, the same i do Boeing. Too horrible corporations that once were not, but now represent everything that is driving society into a flaming abyss. Defend it all the way down if you wish, but how you live with yourselves , making comments like " BA has been making sound decisions, while competitors have sought aid" is beyond me.
Seeking Aid is not wrong, its actually more sound during a global meltdown than trying to wing it, with your nose in the air, and then ravaging your staff.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:15 am

JumboMaiden wrote:
a350lover wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/06/19/british-airways-reveals-improved-cabin-crew-pay-offer-a-big-win-for-mixed-fleet/comment-page-1/#comments


But.... my doubt is, under those numbers proposed at 28,000 for cabin crews 31,000 for Lead Cabin Crew and 39,000 for Managers....what number would BA still need to lay off? Or would that mean that if that was to be accepted by unions they could get through this without any redundancies?



The (updated) proposal today said redundancies are still likley.

The proposal is an extension of MF practises but I wouldn't call it a big win because there were still questionable things in the original proposal that haven't been taken out or ammended.
A mention of MF disciplinary etc. practises being the fleet norm should be taken into consideration by WW and EF who have not generally had any exposure to the punitive and some very petty measures that manage MF.
The working changes for both fleets WW and EF would be pretty significant apart from money and from people I know on both, not wanted.
VR went out to WW and EF yesterday (friend on EF hasn't received anything - she is from the BMI take over). They have until June 27th
to accept or decline. I guess then they will be able to adjust the redundancy figures.
I hope people will make sound judgements for themselves and not depend on the union which so far has done less than nothing to be of
use or benefit to anyone and that the militant types will not sign up with one primary disruptive intention in mind.

Maybe Nightmareliner has more info I have missed.



JumboMaiden - Do you think many on legacy fleets will take that VR?

Being honest, it looks as if the proposals have really split Mixed Fleet. I've seen remarks ranging from "Give me the pen & paper now" to "I don't trust the proposal, trust the Union & KTF" , and everything inbetween.

I personally think the contract isn't that bad for someone coming from Mixed Fleet - but that's only because I'm coming from a MF perspective, and it's better than the jobcentre. However I do totally empathize with my legacy colleagues who are having this unfair smash & grab on their T&C's, with potential huge lifestyle changes at short notice. From that perspective, it's not a good contract.

I do have a couple of concerns with the new proposal. Firstly is that because the new allowances system is based on destinations - so crew will be bidding for destinations based on the ££ is gives - whereas before, because it was the same pay per destination (£3.42 per hour from check in to clear back at LHR), crew would bid for places they wanted to visit. There is only a couple of trips that were very good money earners (such as LHR-SIN-SYD, but many crew didn't like being away that long).

The allowances are also based on the cost of living in the destination - so SIN has much better allowances than JNB for example. But because I'm A380 crew - myself and others on the A380 would lose more than the A350 / B747 crew on Mixed Fleet simply because we fly to JNB more often than not.

Yes the allowances are supposed to be spent downroute - but if you spent all that money downroute you wouldn't be able to live in the UK (especially near LHR) after bills, rent etc etc.

And finally, mortgage lenders don't look at tax free allowances from pay. So before with the £3.42 P/H, 33% of that was tax free. So we could use the base salary + 67% of the allowances towards a mortgage. Now that would go down to £17,00 before tax to get a mortgage on.

But I would personally take it, because it's better than being unemployed in an economy with very few jobs - especially in aviation.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:43 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
AA100 wrote:

The JB does NOT share costs. It is a revenue sharing agreement that does not include each carrier’s costs, therefore how much it costs each airline to pay a pilot to fly a shared route does not come into it.


Re-read what I wrote: I said there is a revenue sharing agreement. I never said costs were shared. The cost of the operation has an impact on pricing just ae supply and demand does and it affects yields and margins.

Don't accuse me of saying something I didn't say!


Unlike what you think, pricing at BA is predominantly a function of supply and demand. The system is optimising revenue for every seat on every flight. The limitations of course are the number of fare types you can file in a GDS. Cost will simply
determine if a flight can run profitably and if it will continue to operate as a result. You seem to imply that cost distorts the JBA and that is simply not the case - as pointed out it's a revenue sharing agreement. If anything, the lower cost at BA will make marginal routes possible for BA where they might not be for AA.


The lowest price point on a route will have a cost input - as you know the lowest fare classes are often (but not always) loss leaders. Your cost base will determine how low that loss leader can be. With the JBA, it's a revenue sharing agreement, but the antitrust immunity also allows for legalised collusion on pricing.

The share of routes is largely determined by frequent flier mix (hence why AA has more DFW-LHR and CLT-LHR passengers and BA flies to JFK/LAX more) and hub structure/ease of operation, which is largely a reflection of the FF mix.

New offer for Mixed Fleet sounds largely positive but still involves a drastic cut for WW and EF.
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:55 am

I’ve read in a few places that it’s the crew people choose BA for.

It really isn’t. The high frequency comprehensive route network, the monopoly at Heathrow and the airlines loyalty scheme are higher scorers on CSQs as the reason for choosing BA
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 872
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:03 am

Would these conditions mean all fleets will remain operating separately and under different rostering conditions?
 
Channex101
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:41 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:20 am

a350lover wrote:
Would these conditions mean all fleets will remain operating separately and under different rostering conditions?


No, this is the main topic... its everyone together. all crew will work 319/20/21 + 777/787 then either 747/350/380

One team, harmonised contract and payscales.
 
Channex101
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:41 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:24 am

[quote="Opus99"]https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/06/19/british-airways-reveals-improved-cabin-crew-pay-offer-a-big-win-for-mixed-fleet/comment-page-1/#comments

For many legacy it’s still a BIG pay cut. But how you have crew doing the same work with different pay I don’t know./quote]

Because even the most junior person on EF/WW has been with the company a lot longer than some of the most senior crew on MF.

EF/WW last recruitment was end of summer 2008, those with the most service on MF either joined very early on and managed to stick it out, or theyve moved over from elsewhere in the company or from another fleet.

I agree with what you say, in a way.... crew should all be on one standard contract, but if you've done 20+ yrs service surely you should be on more than an 18yr old coming straight from school into flying? loyalty and length of service should be rewarded! most of these senior serving crew have been here longer than any of the current management
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:50 pm

Channex101 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/06/19/british-airways-reveals-improved-cabin-crew-pay-offer-a-big-win-for-mixed-fleet/comment-page-1/#comments

For many legacy it’s still a BIG pay cut. But how you have crew doing the same work with different pay I don’t know./quote]

Because even the most junior person on EF/WW has been with the company a lot longer than some of the most senior crew on MF.

EF/WW last recruitment was end of summer 2008, those with the most service on MF either joined very early on and managed to stick it out, or theyve moved over from elsewhere in the company or from another fleet.

I agree with what you say, in a way.... crew should all be on one standard contract, but if you've done 20+ yrs service surely you should be on more than an 18yr old coming straight from school into flying? loyalty and length of service should be rewarded! most of these senior serving crew have been here longer than any of the current management


Only to a point. Good performance should be rewarded, not length of service. That's largely how it works in the real world. Seniority and the sense of entitlement that comes with it is what drives some of the behaviours.

Don't get me wrong, what IAG are trying is nor right and I am not defending it. What happens here however is what has happened in many other industries.
 
JumboMaiden
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:28 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:55 pm

Nightmareliner wrote:
JumboMaiden wrote:
a350lover wrote:

But.... my doubt is, under those numbers proposed at 28,000 for cabin crews 31,000 for Lead Cabin Crew and 39,000 for Managers....what number would BA still need to lay off? Or would that mean that if that was to be accepted by unions they could get through this without any redundancies?

d.



JumboMaiden - Do you think many on legacy fleets will take that VR?

Being honest, it looks as if the proposals have really split Mixed Fleet. I've seen remarks ranging from "Give me the pen & paper now" to "I don't trust the proposal, trust the Union & KTF" , and everything inbetween.

I personally think the contract isn't that bad for someone coming from Mixed Fleet - but that's only because I'm coming from a MF perspective, and it's better than the jobcentre. However I do totally empathize with my legacy colleagues who are having this unfair smash & grab on their T&C's, with potential huge lifestyle changes at short notice. From that perspective, it's not a good contract.

I do have a couple of concerns with the new proposal. Firstly is that because the new allowances system is based on destinations - so crew will be bidding for destinations based on the ££ is gives - whereas before, because it was the same pay per destination (£3.42 per hour from check in to clear back at LHR), crew would bid for places they wanted to visit. There is only a couple of trips that were very good money earners (such as LHR-SIN-SYD, but many crew didn't like being away that long).

The allowances are also based on the cost of living in the destination - so SIN has much better allowances than JNB for example. But because I'm A380 crew - myself and others on the A380 would lose more than the A350 / B747 crew on Mixed Fleet simply because we fly to JNB more often than not.

Yes the allowances are supposed to be spent downroute - but if you spent all that money downroute you wouldn't be able to live in the UK (especially near LHR) after bills, rent etc etc.

And finally, mortgage lenders don't look at tax free allowances from pay. So before with the £3.42 P/H, 33% of that was tax free. So we could use the base salary + 67% of the allowances towards a mortgage. Now that would go down to £17,00 before tax to get a mortgage on.

But I would personally take it, because it's better than being unemployed in an economy with very few jobs - especially in aviation.


Hi NightM.
It's been healthier to tune out over the last days ! My EF friends (2 of them legacy) are refusing to accept VR offers, they are convinced the union is going to sweep in and
double + the offer (despite being in the teeth of the ugly facts). There are some (I am told) who won't even open the email for some strange reason.
The former british midlands people I also hear are sure their tupe agreements protect them in other ways, though what, this many years later they
might be, no one can say.
Let's see how chipper people feel on Saturday 27 deadline if the union hasn't made an appearance.
My WW friend is taking the offer but has no kids/mortgages. He has almost 26 years in the pension pot too.
This is a very complex fight... though having read Willie's letter to the transport minister and looked at my. own contract, the paperwork appears at any
rate to enable Waterside to do whatever they want.

If the new t&cs show up in my inbox I will sign them, the alternative being less appealing. I didn't pick up on the allowance structure fully, but
all in all I can live with what the improvements --technically-- could be and I can also live without going to NAS and SYD if it means getting the kind
of flying I prefer.
If the rumour is true that the 747 is not coming back I wonder if there will be a choice option 350 or 380 to address that imbalance. Personally I'd go
for the 380 because of the mean and nasty galley arrangements on the 350. I'm all about making life easier, not harder.

Happy days.
 
Opus99
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:04 pm

https://simpleflying.com/british-airway ... guarantee/

BA sent a letter to crew saying that their pay won't fall by more than 20% and I believe mixed fleet crew are seeing a pay bump.

Can anyone confirm this letter was sent?
 
Galwayman
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:12 pm

I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1202
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:14 pm

Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.


It’s called seniority ....
Those people on the top bucks deserve every penny.
They’ve helped put the company where it is today, and for the past 30 years +....
 
Opus99
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:19 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.


It’s called seniority ....
Those people on the top bucks deserve every penny.
They’ve helped put the company where it is today, and for the past 30 years +....

I agree with that, when seniority actually means you have significantly more responsibility attached to your job....not when you're doing the exact same job and your earning over double people who came in 5 years ago and will probably never reach that....that is not seniority...that seniority does not mean a damn thing...im so sorry.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19978
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:53 pm

bennett123 wrote:
A major cut in employee wages across the economy is unlikely to stimulate demand for long haul flights.

People will either not have the money, or will be reluctant to spend.

I do not think this is to stimulate demand, I think it is to be closer to break even so that more flights can be offered.

Sadly, we are probably entering a depression (> 25% unemployment). We were in a debt bubble compounded by the lock downs. Business travel, which pays the BA premium, is going to recover slowly.

Small and nimble airlines will thrive. The traffic available is VFR. BA must get costs in line with VFR traffic.

I feel for BA staff. But it isn't a question of if airlines fail, but how many.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:05 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.


It’s called seniority ....
Those people on the top bucks deserve every penny.
They’ve helped put the company where it is today, and for the past 30 years +....


Rubbish. they've been greedy, it's time to move on - I'm sure Mixed fleet crew will be glad to see the back of them -It's called greed and entitlement, sod seniority
 
RexBanner
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:37 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:32 am

That’s one of the most insensitive, disrespectful and pompous things I’ve ever read. Greed? These people did not set the terms and conditions of their employment when they joined. They were being paid in accordance with an AGREED level of remuneration and living their lives in accordance with that salary. It’s exactly what you and I do every day. Would you be greedy to defend your position if your boss suddenly decided that you were paid too much, quoting other employers in the field and slashed your pay dramatically, leaving you struggling to live? It’s not their fault that the CC world started racing to the bottom around them. Jeez I’m not even cabin crew but I’ve read some inflammatory and insensitive things but that takes the biscuit.
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:12 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-crew-pay-guarantee/

BA sent a letter to crew saying that their pay won't fall by more than 20% and I believe mixed fleet crew are seeing a pay bump.

Can anyone confirm this letter was sent?


BASIC pay won’t fall by more than 20%, but most of their pay is from other things anyway such as their allowances so pay cuts of around 40% are very very real still.

It’s a good headline for the press though. Until they realise how little BASIC pay forms part of their remuneration.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
Opus99
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:14 am

APYu wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-crew-pay-guarantee/

BA sent a letter to crew saying that their pay won't fall by more than 20% and I believe mixed fleet crew are seeing a pay bump.

Can anyone confirm this letter was sent?


BASIC pay won’t fall by more than 20%, but most of their pay is from other things anyway such as their allowances so pay cuts of around 40% are very very real still.

It’s a good headline for the press though. Until they realise how little BASIC pay forms part of their remuneration.

Yes I realised that. The truth is they’re not going to get better than this so it’s really up to the legacy crew members what they want to do
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:15 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.


It’s called seniority ....
Those people on the top bucks deserve every penny.
They’ve helped put the company where it is today, and for the past 30 years +....


The concept of this seniority also started to disappear 30 years ago too. It’s ridiculous it’s lasted so long in the airline industry.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:19 am

Opus99 wrote:
APYu wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-crew-pay-guarantee/

BA sent a letter to crew saying that their pay won't fall by more than 20% and I believe mixed fleet crew are seeing a pay bump.

Can anyone confirm this letter was sent?


BASIC pay won’t fall by more than 20%, but most of their pay is from other things anyway such as their allowances so pay cuts of around 40% are very very real still.

It’s a good headline for the press though. Until they realise how little BASIC pay forms part of their remuneration.

Yes I realised that. The truth is they’re not going to get better than this so it’s really up to the legacy crew members what they want to do


I expect a further slight improvement which will be given to the union when they engage to make it look like they won something. What’s worrying is there are still crew who think the union will save them from all this. There are crew who think a No Vote will make a blind bit of difference. The requirement is to consult, there’s no requirement to agree.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:06 pm

APYu wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.


It’s called seniority ....
Those people on the top bucks deserve every penny.
They’ve helped put the company where it is today, and for the past 30 years +....


The concept of this seniority also started to disappear 30 years ago too. It’s ridiculous it’s lasted so long in the airline industry.


I agree. While the majority of employees are seeing pay rises and promotions in line with their performance, seniority based systems hand you these benefits just for sticking around long enough. It fosters a culture of entitlement and an unwillingness to accept change. The world and the workplace are ever changing and we all do better to accept that.

I don't want to make apologies for BA. They have always been an employer that knew how to exploit loop holes (B2Bs, the way they paid the W patterns to JFK, etc.). The unions though for years were to busy fighting pre take-off drinks or a choice of newspaper in WTP to focus on the real changes happening.

If legacy crew were managed and rewarded by how customers rate them (as an individual, a group or overall - and I don't mean one customer complimenting or complaining but a robust measuring system), they would have long ago seen how much the playing field has changed.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1028
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:08 pm

Opus99 wrote:
APYu wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-crew-pay-guarantee/

BA sent a letter to crew saying that their pay won't fall by more than 20% and I believe mixed fleet crew are seeing a pay bump.

Can anyone confirm this letter was sent?


BASIC pay won’t fall by more than 20%, but most of their pay is from other things anyway such as their allowances so pay cuts of around 40% are very very real still.

It’s a good headline for the press though. Until they realise how little BASIC pay forms part of their remuneration.

Yes I realised that. The truth is they’re not going to get better than this so it’s really up to the legacy crew members what they want to do

Never waste a crisis to please the shareholders.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:33 pm

marcelh wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
APYu wrote:

BASIC pay won’t fall by more than 20%, but most of their pay is from other things anyway such as their allowances so pay cuts of around 40% are very very real still.

It’s a good headline for the press though. Until they realise how little BASIC pay forms part of their remuneration.

Yes I realised that. The truth is they’re not going to get better than this so it’s really up to the legacy crew members what they want to do

Never waste a crisis to please the shareholders.


It's an international race to the bottom. And as much as we like to blame others, it is us as consumers that have got the ball rolling. Cheap, cheaper, cheapest. From clothing (now made by people barely being paid enough to live), to food (the meat industry in most places is nothing short of a disgrace) to flights. We all love a good bargain. As long as it was someone else's industries impacted we were all fine with it. Now that it has reached the airlines it's a big outrage and an injustice.

Who on here will pay an extra £50 per ticket (short haul economy) to fly BA so the crew can be paid the same?
 
marcelh
Posts: 1028
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:39 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Yes I realised that. The truth is they’re not going to get better than this so it’s really up to the legacy crew members what they want to do

Never waste a crisis to please the shareholders.


It's an international race to the bottom. And as much as we like to blame others, it is us as consumers that have got the ball rolling. Cheap, cheaper, cheapest. From clothing (now made by people barely being paid enough to live), to food (the meat industry in most places is nothing short of a disgrace) to flights. We all love a good bargain. As long as it was someone else's industries impacted we were all fine with it. Now that it has reached the airlines it's a big outrage and an injustice.

Who on here will pay an extra £50 per ticket (short haul economy) to fly BA so the crew can be paid the same?

Where does that £50 per ticket come from? And yes, I’m willing to pay some more. But unfortunately that money will Probably go to the shareholders. IMHO shareholder greed is the Anglo-Saxon cancer.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:25 pm

marcelh wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Never waste a crisis to please the shareholders.


It's an international race to the bottom. And as much as we like to blame others, it is us as consumers that have got the ball rolling. Cheap, cheaper, cheapest. From clothing (now made by people barely being paid enough to live), to food (the meat industry in most places is nothing short of a disgrace) to flights. We all love a good bargain. As long as it was someone else's industries impacted we were all fine with it. Now that it has reached the airlines it's a big outrage and an injustice.

Who on here will pay an extra £50 per ticket (short haul economy) to fly BA so the crew can be paid the same?

Where does that £50 per ticket come from? And yes, I’m willing to pay some more. But unfortunately that money will Probably go to the shareholders. IMHO shareholder greed is the Anglo-Saxon cancer.


I fully agree with the Anglo Saxon cancer. But consumers are the driving force. The £50 are a symbolic amount. How much would you pay more for some of the senior BA crew keeping the £70k basic pay quoted in newspaper articles?
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