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skipness1E
Posts: 4786
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:44 pm

Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.

It’s a tiny minority and Mixed Fleet would deal with this over time. It was once a career with prospects, now intended to burn kids out while they’re young and replace them.

Perhaps you’d share your salary with us so we can decide your worth too?
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:49 am

BAs fares haven’t really dropped though so not sure the crew are paid less as we are paying less
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:54 am

marcelh wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Never waste a crisis to please the shareholders.


It's an international race to the bottom. And as much as we like to blame others, it is us as consumers that have got the ball rolling. Cheap, cheaper, cheapest. From clothing (now made by people barely being paid enough to live), to food (the meat industry in most places is nothing short of a disgrace) to flights. We all love a good bargain. As long as it was someone else's industries impacted we were all fine with it. Now that it has reached the airlines it's a big outrage and an injustice.

Who on here will pay an extra £50 per ticket (short haul economy) to fly BA so the crew can be paid the same?

Where does that £50 per ticket come from? And yes, I’m willing to pay some more. But unfortunately that money will Probably go to the shareholders. IMHO shareholder greed is the Anglo-Saxon cancer.


Yes, shareholders (the owners of the company) are the most important people to any private company. Not sure that’s going to change unless we move to a very different political system
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1012
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:29 am

APYu wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

It's an international race to the bottom. And as much as we like to blame others, it is us as consumers that have got the ball rolling. Cheap, cheaper, cheapest. From clothing (now made by people barely being paid enough to live), to food (the meat industry in most places is nothing short of a disgrace) to flights. We all love a good bargain. As long as it was someone else's industries impacted we were all fine with it. Now that it has reached the airlines it's a big outrage and an injustice.

Who on here will pay an extra £50 per ticket (short haul economy) to fly BA so the crew can be paid the same?

Where does that £50 per ticket come from? And yes, I’m willing to pay some more. But unfortunately that money will Probably go to the shareholders. IMHO shareholder greed is the Anglo-Saxon cancer.


Yes, shareholders (the owners of the company) are the most important people to any private company. Not sure that’s going to change unless we move to a very different political system

I don’t agree we have to move to a very different political system. IMHO we should make some adjustments to prevent unwanted side effects.
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:07 pm

Galwayman wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ... The legacy fleet should have been dealt with years ago . Zero sympathy.


It’s called seniority ....
Those people on the top bucks deserve every penny.
They’ve helped put the company where it is today, and for the past 30 years +....


Rubbish. they've been greedy, it's time to move on - I'm sure Mixed fleet crew will be glad to see the back of them -It's called greed and entitlement, sod seniority


Absolutely not. I have never once resented legacy for earning what they do. And 99% of Mixed Fleet don't either. We'd love to earn what they earn, don't get me wrong. But to say I'd / we'd love to see them out of a job? Please, grow up & have some respect rather than second guessing how people feel.

Their contracts were written when that was the market rate. That's not greed - they are paying what BA agreed to pay them once upon a time.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1187
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:27 pm

Any news on you BA777FO...?
Grim rumours re: LGW 777 flight crew circulating in the press a few days ago.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1136
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:56 pm

Bear in mind that it's LHR pilots who fly the LGW 777s.
 
flyjay123
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:07 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:49 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ...

. It was once a career with prospects, now intended to burn kids out while they’re young and replace them.

Perhaps you’d share your salary with us so we can decide your worth too?


How exactly do they burn the kids out while they're young?
Aren't ALL crew regulated to fly a maximum of 80 hours in any 28 days, irrespective of what contract their on. Therefore the workload can't be that different between them.

In all honesty I think 28k is more than enough pay for an average 25 hours work a week. Some only fly two 10 hour sectors once a week!
 
Thomaas
Posts: 681
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:54 pm

flyjay123 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ...

. It was once a career with prospects, now intended to burn kids out while they’re young and replace them.

Perhaps you’d share your salary with us so we can decide your worth too?


How exactly do they burn the kids out while they're young?
Aren't ALL crew regulated to fly a maximum of 80 hours in any 28 days, irrespective of what contract their on. Therefore the workload can't be that different between them.

In all honesty I think 28k is more than enough pay for an average 25 hours work a week. Some only fly two 10 hour sectors once a week!

Flight crew is supposed to earn you as much as full time employment, regardless of how many hours you actually fly. One does not count the long airport commutes, time on the ground before pushback, delays or layovers. Although crew members don’t spend a large amount of time actually flying, they do spend many more unpaid hours on-duty.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:29 pm

flyjay123 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
I saw that article. Can't believe BA pay some CC £70k and others £28k ...

. It was once a career with prospects, now intended to burn kids out while they’re young and replace them.

Perhaps you’d share your salary with us so we can decide your worth too?


How exactly do they burn the kids out while they're young?
Aren't ALL crew regulated to fly a maximum of 80 hours in any 28 days, irrespective of what contract their on. Therefore the workload can't be that different between them.

In all honesty I think 28k is more than enough pay for an average 25 hours work a week. Some only fly two 10 hour sectors once a week!


There is a big difference if you fly longhaul only or mixed schedules. The limit is 900 flying hours a year but as mentioned there is a lot of time spent before and after. Proportionally that increases with shorter flights. If as a result of hour limitation you get rostered seven trips on seven days from LHR to AMS instead of one JFK nightstop, you would soon notice the difference.

And as for your remark about salary, it's a full time job. Have you ever done it? Tiredness from irregular schedules accumulates over time. Working during the day today, during the night tomorrow, back to during the day... There is a reason why nurses, policemen etc do longer shift patterns. I am not saying it's astro physics but every job is worth being paid a living wage for. I am not sure what your circumstances are and it doesn't matter, but try raising a (or more) child (ren) in London on £28k a year...
 
Opus99
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:54 pm

Apparently a deal has been reached with BA & BALPA. Details not yet revealed

https://twitter.com/headforpoints/statu ... 65664?s=21
 
Vicenza
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:16 pm

APYu wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:

Yes, shareholders (the owners of the company) are the most important people to any private company. Not sure that’s going to change unless we move to a very different political system


Are they really? But then, that's the problem isn't it.......because without customers shareholders are really pretty worthless in themselves.
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:34 pm

BA Cityflyer today confirmed closure of its Edinburgh base, working with BALPA & Unite to minimise redundancies.
 
75driver
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

BA Pilots Accept Temp 20% Pay Cut

Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:41 pm

The pilots wanted to save as many jobs as possible. This vote limits the redundancy cuts even though there will be some. It won’t be as bad with this concession. Likely one of several dominoes to fall in response to COVId repercussion.

https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Pres ... -Jobs-Deal
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:29 pm

Any inner update on the development of negotiations of new contracts for cabin crews?
I heard they were notified recently with wether new contract terms (which they were due to accept before the 17/08) or redundancies.
Will it be enough with the voluntary leaves? I hope BA crews can make it through this saving the maximum amount of jobs;)
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1265
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:40 pm

There are suggestions that the bulk of staff cuts are being made at Gatwick, suggesting that short haul is being pulled permanently. This coincides with a report about one Gatwick terminal remaining closed well into 2021.

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/0 ... m-gatwick/
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4766
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:55 pm

Redundancy notices went out last week with over 10,000 being cut. Good news at least was that 6,000 of those were voluntary departures.

https://news.sky.com/story/more-than-10 ... t-12044454
mercure f-wtcc
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:44 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:20 pm

The figures being quoted are incorrect and BA has not confirmed a final number as yet. Many areas are still going through the process and have not communicated the outcomes to the staff in those departments.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:46 pm

At the risk of sounding cruel... what is taking so long?

I know they don’t have an October 1 date like the US. International travel is down 80 plus percent. They have an almost non existent domestic network.

Isnt this the same “worst case” scenario they have been discussing for 6 months? Wouldnt it be better to stop the bleeding of cash already?
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1384
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:13 am

jfklganyc wrote:
At the risk of sounding cruel... what is taking so long?

I know they don’t have an October 1 date like the US. International travel is down 80 plus percent. They have an almost non existent domestic network.

Isnt this the same “worst case” scenario they have been discussing for 6 months? Wouldnt it be better to stop the bleeding of cash already?


In the UK, any company wanting to make 100 or more employees has to follow a a 45 day consultation process before any dismissals become effective and involve the trade unions.

Additionally, it's becoming more apparent that the longer this crisis goes on the less likely it is demand will bounce back to pre-COVID levels, so it's probably meant companies are having to change plans to recover from it as anything drawn up in April/May time probably wouldn't work now.

Finally, given the amount of bad press BA have been receiving since the Spring over the treatment of their staff, I would hazard a guess it's dawned on them that following through with mass compulsory redundancies would tarnish their brand even further, so being cynical it would be "better" for their image if many of them choose to take voluntary redundancy. Not that it makes it easier for those affected though and I feel for them. Regardless of brand damage, I doubt it will some people from flying with them though, especially those that fly exclusively BA.
 
jomur
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:48 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
At the risk of sounding cruel... what is taking so long?

I know they don’t have an October 1 date like the US. International travel is down 80 plus percent. They have an almost non existent domestic network.

Isnt this the same “worst case” scenario they have been discussing for 6 months? Wouldnt it be better to stop the bleeding of cash already?


In the UK, any company wanting to make 100 or more employees has to follow a a 45 day consultation process before any dismissals become effective and involve the trade unions.

Additionally, it's becoming more apparent that the longer this crisis goes on the less likely it is demand will bounce back to pre-COVID levels, so it's probably meant companies are having to change plans to recover from it as anything drawn up in April/May time probably wouldn't work now.

Finally, given the amount of bad press BA have been receiving since the Spring over the treatment of their staff, I would hazard a guess it's dawned on them that following through with mass compulsory redundancies would tarnish their brand even further, so being cynical it would be "better" for their image if many of them choose to take voluntary redundancy. Not that it makes it easier for those affected though and I feel for them. Regardless of brand damage, I doubt it will some people from flying with them though, especially those that fly exclusively BA.


Any bad press will be short lived. In BAs favour is the fact that passengers are generally happy with how they have handled refunds so are more likely to rebook with them later compared to how other airlines have/are handling refunds, looking at you Virgin...
 
BA777FO
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:02 am

In addition to B74741R's comprehensive reply, the cash burn due to staff hasn't been that high - many have been furloughed under a UK government scheme paying 80% of staff salaries up to £2500 per month (staff that weren't furloughed either earned in excess of that and gave up things like unpaid leave like pilots essentially being on little over 50% pay for 3 months) or were working and earning what little revenue was coming in. That support tapers away this month so the bulk of settlements will be in place for August/September onwards. The first batches of voluntary redundancies have started to leave the business.
 
jomur
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:08 am

fcogafa wrote:
There are suggestions that the bulk of staff cuts are being made at Gatwick, suggesting that short haul is being pulled permanently. This coincides with a report about one Gatwick terminal remaining closed well into 2021.

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/0 ... m-gatwick/


I doubt shorthaul is going permanently. BA will not want to lose its slots and flying shorthaul it is easier to use them all than langhaul. Maybe they will just be outsourcing ground based jobs so they can increase and decrease number as and when required. Its so easy to make the wrong assumptions based on a few details..
 
a350lover
Topic Author
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:33 pm

This is shocking:

"Fire and rehire" at BA
-57% less pay
-36 days off a year
-Forced 6 weeks unpaid leave a year
+25 increased productivity

https://twitter.com/flyingfrisian74/sta ... 22598?s=20
 
SEU
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:05 am

a350lover wrote:
This is shocking:

"Fire and rehire" at BA
-57% less pay
-36 days off a year
-Forced 6 weeks unpaid leave a year
+25 increased productivity

https://twitter.com/flyingfrisian74/sta ... 22598?s=20


By all means I am on the same side, but I think that tweet is a little bit emotional and exaggerated.

1) 57% less pay? The minimum wage is £16,000 in this country, so that means they were earning and minimum of £32-35,000 which Is very high. I doubt they have been offered minimum wage as well, so they are looking at £40,000+ which is maddness.

2) 36 less days off a year, the minimum allowed is 28 days, so they were getting 64 days a year off, with a salary of minimum £32-£35k (which is actually more like £40,000?) thats 1535 hours a year.... thats stupidly high

3) Forced 6 weeks leave, pretty rubbish to be honest, hopefully that isnt long term

4) +25% productivity, does this mean longer hours? 25% more hours per week is 46.5 hours a week? Or are they just doing 25% more when they are working?

Either way, I reckon the figures in that tweet are a little exaggerated, it doesnt change how they have been treated. Fire and rehire just shouldnt be allowed.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:54 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
JumboMaiden wrote:
Is there a larger breakdown for redundancy numbers in other departments?
Cabin crew numbers are quoted excluding IBMs.


The Commercial team have been told that their headcount will be reduced by 33%.


As of today, 12th August:
In the Commercial team those who want to take voluntary severance have applied and are waiting to hear if they will get it. The timescales are not yet known.
In Customer Services ('over the wing') at Heathrow those who want to take severance have applied. The final discussions with the unions are taking place. People have been told that they will be told if they can have severance this week.
So, at this time the final numbers for voluntary severance for those areas is not yet know.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:41 pm

SEU wrote:
a350lover wrote:
This is shocking:

"Fire and rehire" at BA
-57% less pay
-36 days off a year
-Forced 6 weeks unpaid leave a year
+25 increased productivity

https://twitter.com/flyingfrisian74/sta ... 22598?s=20


By all means I am on the same side, but I think that tweet is a little bit emotional and exaggerated.

1) 57% less pay? The minimum wage is £16,000 in this country, so that means they were earning and minimum of £32-35,000 which Is very high. I doubt they have been offered minimum wage as well, so they are looking at £40,000+ which is maddness.

2) 36 less days off a year, the minimum allowed is 28 days, so they were getting 64 days a year off, with a salary of minimum £32-£35k (which is actually more like £40,000?) thats 1535 hours a year.... thats stupidly high

3) Forced 6 weeks leave, pretty rubbish to be honest, hopefully that isnt long term

4) +25% productivity, does this mean longer hours? 25% more hours per week is 46.5 hours a week? Or are they just doing 25% more when they are working?

Either way, I reckon the figures in that tweet are a little exaggerated, it doesnt change how they have been treated. Fire and rehire just shouldnt be allowed.



Think the figures are in relation to the legacy Euro Fleet and Worldwide crews coming down to the new contract which will match Mixed Fleet.
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1265
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:12 pm

Pilots agreed a deal, Terminal staff are voting on a deal, cabin crew, after refusing to negotiate are now belatedly asking for the same deal as the pilots. The unions have really messed up. What happened to the strike threat?

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/1 ... undancies/
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/1 ... undancies/
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant

Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:24 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
SEU wrote:
a350lover wrote:
This is shocking:

"Fire and rehire" at BA
-57% less pay
-36 days off a year
-Forced 6 weeks unpaid leave a year
+25 increased productivity

https://twitter.com/flyingfrisian74/sta ... 22598?s=20


By all means I am on the same side, but I think that tweet is a little bit emotional and exaggerated.

1) 57% less pay? The minimum wage is £16,000 in this country, so that means they were earning and minimum of £32-35,000 which Is very high. I doubt they have been offered minimum wage as well, so they are looking at £40,000+ which is maddness.

2) 36 less days off a year, the minimum allowed is 28 days, so they were getting 64 days a year off, with a salary of minimum £32-£35k (which is actually more like £40,000?) thats 1535 hours a year.... thats stupidly high

3) Forced 6 weeks leave, pretty rubbish to be honest, hopefully that isnt long term

4) +25% productivity, does this mean longer hours? 25% more hours per week is 46.5 hours a week? Or are they just doing 25% more when they are working?

Either way, I reckon the figures in that tweet are a little exaggerated, it doesnt change how they have been treated. Fire and rehire just shouldnt be allowed.



Think the figures are in relation to the legacy Euro Fleet and Worldwide crews coming down to the new contract which will match Mixed Fleet.


On the days off figure, don't forget cabin crew don't work 5 day weeks but rotating shifts. This is 36 days off the total including what they would have as weekend. Minimum allowed is not 28 days unless you count public holidays in the UK. Normal office workers tend to get 52x2 for weekends, 25 days annual leave and 8 (or so) public holidays makes 138 days off in a year. Not sure how that stacks up.

And how is £40k madness for someone having progressed in their professional career for 20 years? That compares very unfavourably with say train or tube drivers for example. Have you ever done the job to judge what it should pay?
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