Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
PepeTheFrog
Topic Author
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:51 am

Summary: Boeing posts quarterly loss of $641 million, burns through $4.3 billion cash in one quarter.

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/boe ... t-business

Production of commercial airliners is being cut, the 777 rate is down to 3 aircraft per month and 787 will be reduced to 7 aircraft per month. Production of the 737 MAX is due to restart later this year "at a low pace". That sounds like the rate is still to be decided.

Boeing is also cutting 10% of its payroll (including 15% in commercial airplanes).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... 2B1N7?il=0
Good moaning!
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:14 pm

For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4467
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:15 pm

Much of this probably predates the corona pandemic, but it would be interesting to see if the 7 a month 787 rate is permanent or just until the crisis ends. A cut was expected sooner or later, but 7 is much less than most suggested.
 
chiad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:20 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.


I think Boeing has a much bigger Military unit, which isn't much impacted by the Corona crisis and should still make them profits.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:23 pm

chiad wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.


I think Boeing has a much bigger Military unit, which isn't much impacted by the Corona crisis and should still make them profits.

The other thing are the jet freighters, which Boeing has a almost complete monopoly in, and has been delivering throughout Q1. This is a segment that is in demand now.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:29 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.


I have to disagree. Airbus´ A320 production is still in full swing with all costs for supplier, work force etc. attached and payments to be made for all purchased sub assemblies etc. Boeings 737MAX production on the other hand has stopped and certainly does not have a similar cash outflow for engines, avionics etc etc.

Boeing already had ~ 12 months to go into cash conservation mode, Airbus just got to this starting point. Both will improve, but Airbus has it´s full product line to improve on, Boeing "only" all other except for the 737MAX.

Still fear 7 787 per month will be too much (same goes for the A350, too).
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
Opus99
Posts: 978
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:29 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Summary: Boeing posts quarterly loss of $641 million, burns through $4.3 billion cash in one quarter.

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/boe ... t-business

Production of commercial airliners is being cut, the 777 rate is down to 3 aircraft per month and 787 will be reduced to 7 aircraft per month. Production of the 737 MAX is due to restart later this year "at a low pace". That sounds like the rate is still to be decided.

Boeing is also cutting 10% of its payroll (including 15% in commercial airplanes).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... 2B1N7?il=0

Do bear in mind the 777 figure is for both 777 and 777X in 2021
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:34 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.


I have to disagree. Airbus´ A320 production is still in full swing with all costs for supplier, work force etc. attached and payments to be made for all purchased sub assemblies etc. Boeings 737MAX production on the other hand has stopped and certainly does not have a similar cash outflow for engines, avionics etc etc.

Boeing already had ~ 12 months to go into cash conservation mode, Airbus just got to this starting point. Both will improve, but Airbus has it´s full product line to improve on, Boeing "only" all other except for the 737MAX.

Still fear 7 787 per month will be too much (same goes for the A350, too).

This is why Airbus will take a much painful cut. They are basically falling from a higher height to equal Boeing which fell at a lower height.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10337
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:43 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
I think Boeing has a much bigger Military unit, which isn't much impacted by the Corona crisis and should still make them profits.

The other thing are the jet freighters, which Boeing has a almost complete monopoly in, and has been delivering throughout Q1. This is a segment that is in demand now.[/quote]
Which jet fighters are you talking about, the F-15 and F-18 that Boeing sell are end of life products, they are trying to find ways to keep their fighter line relevant since they lost out to the F-35. We have a long thread in Military av on the F-15 which some call a gift from the US Air Force, as for the recent German order for the F-18....

The monopoly on fighter jets in the USA is on the F-35 and Boeing is not involved. Boeing's best bet is the new trainer for the US Air Force and expanded sales once deployed.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:45 pm

par13del wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The other thing are the jet freighters, which Boeing has a almost complete monopoly in, and has been delivering throughout Q1. This is a segment that is in demand now.

Which jet fighters are you talking about, the F-15 and F-18 that Boeing sell are end of life products, they are trying to find ways to keep their fighter line relevant since they lost out to the F-35. We have a long thread in Military av on the F-15 which some call a gift from the US Air Force, as for the recent German order for the F-18....

The monopoly on fighter jets in the USA is on the F-35 and Boeing is not involved. Boeing's best bet is the new trainer for the US Air Force and expanded sales once deployed.

I said freighters not fighters, read carefully.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10337
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:49 pm

My bad....apologies....
 
User avatar
PepeTheFrog
Topic Author
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:14 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Do bear in mind the 777 figure is for both 777 and 777X in 2021


True.

I'm guessing 777X runs at a rate of 1 aircraft per month, while 77W/F continues at rate 2.
Good moaning!
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:18 pm

chiad wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.


I think Boeing has a much bigger Military unit, which isn't much impacted by the Corona crisis and should still make them profits.


Don't forget the Freighter market which is dominated by Boeing. What about Airbus? Uhm......... A332F I guess :roll:
Edit signature
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:28 pm

A couple of funny things in the quarterly report - an $827 Million pre-tax charge on KC-46 and an $862 Million Income tax recovery.

Net earnings (however meaningless they are as they can be manipulated so much) might have been close to 0 if no KC-46 Charge.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4245
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:57 pm

res supplier chain, Boeing and Airbus cannot standby and let these fail. As well as competition between the two biggies and their supply chains ultimately the survival of all is essential. Reality is brutal enough without beggaring those Airbus and Boeing depend on. And even Boeing and Airbus are in this together. Remember that when Apple was in dire straits Microsoft famously came through with a huge amount of money for Apple's survival. And it wasn't just generosity/charity that motivated Microsoft. Gates and Jobs knew is some sense they were in this together.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
sxf24
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:05 pm

morrisond wrote:
A couple of funny things in the quarterly report - an $827 Million pre-tax charge on KC-46 and an $862 Million Income tax recovery.

Net earnings (however meaningless they are as they can be manipulated so much) might have been close to 0 if no KC-46 Charge.


Manipulation is a strong word as it implies illegal activity. You may want to reconsider how you choose to describe your opinion.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:42 pm

I'm positively surprised their equity decreased by only one billion $.
Boeing: -9,4 billion $ equity and 152,5 billion liabilities
Airbus: +3,5 billion Euro equity and 110,5 billion liabilities.
Both are pathetic in their equity ratio. How many years of the last 20 years were a seller market?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
phxa340
Posts: 1116
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:38 pm

Antaras wrote:
chiad wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.


I think Boeing has a much bigger Military unit, which isn't much impacted by the Corona crisis and should still make them profits.


Don't forget the Freighter market which is dominated by Boeing. What about Airbus? Uhm......... A332F I guess :roll:


The A332F is getting beat out largely by the 767F. This doesn’t even include the 777F and 747F which also pads Boeing lead.

Even airbus would probably admit while a great product for some, Boeing has Airbus largely beat in the Freighter world (for now).
 
majano
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:56 pm

Interesting that a topic with a headline of "Boeing announces wider Q1 loss..." 11 hours into the discussion, 47% of the comments either note the better position Boeing is in vs Airbus or praise the superiority of its products. Is this what they refer to in German as "schadenfreude"?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:00 pm

I'm confused on this fear of the supply chain failing. Yes times are tough but we are still building large commercial aircraft just a whole lot fewer of them. It will be an adjustment and a loss of jobs (unfortunately) but US unemployment may approach 20% anyhow in the short term. As long as the US military is still buying P-8's, KC-46's, F-15's, F-18's and C-130, America's aerospace companies will have the ability to survive.
A lot of companies will be bought out by companies who have money. It will just be for a lot less than they were worth a few months ago. Remember too that the US Treasury is going to offer very low cost loans to any company that breathes.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    morrisond
    Posts: 2731
    Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:35 am

    sxf24 wrote:
    morrisond wrote:
    A couple of funny things in the quarterly report - an $827 Million pre-tax charge on KC-46 and an $862 Million Income tax recovery.

    Net earnings (however meaningless they are as they can be manipulated so much) might have been close to 0 if no KC-46 Charge.


    Manipulation is a strong word as it implies illegal activity. You may want to reconsider how you choose to describe your opinion.


    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.
     
    sxf24
    Posts: 1001
    Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:41 am

    morrisond wrote:
    sxf24 wrote:
    morrisond wrote:
    A couple of funny things in the quarterly report - an $827 Million pre-tax charge on KC-46 and an $862 Million Income tax recovery.

    Net earnings (however meaningless they are as they can be manipulated so much) might have been close to 0 if no KC-46 Charge.


    Manipulation is a strong word as it implies illegal activity. You may want to reconsider how you choose to describe your opinion.


    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.


    If you believe there are violations of accounting rules or securities laws, there are ways to anonymously report it. Throwing out anonymous bombs on the internet is a special kind of cowardice.
     
    Sokes
    Posts: 1643
    Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:46 am

    sxf24 wrote:
    morrisond wrote:
    sxf24 wrote:

    Manipulation is a strong word as it implies illegal activity. You may want to reconsider how you choose to describe your opinion.


    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.


    If you believe there are violations of accounting rules or securities laws, there are ways to anonymously report it. Throwing out anonymous bombs on the internet is a special kind of cowardice.

    I know morrisond as somebody who defended Boeing in the past. However I can't judge about the tax discussion at hand. Anyway I'm also curious. Morrisond, mind to expand?
    Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
     
    eamondzhang
    Posts: 1799
    Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:12 am

    morrisond wrote:
    sxf24 wrote:
    morrisond wrote:
    A couple of funny things in the quarterly report - an $827 Million pre-tax charge on KC-46 and an $862 Million Income tax recovery.

    Net earnings (however meaningless they are as they can be manipulated so much) might have been close to 0 if no KC-46 Charge.


    Manipulation is a strong word as it implies illegal activity. You may want to reconsider how you choose to describe your opinion.


    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.

    Indeed, manipulation doesn't necessarily means illegal in finance terms at all.

    E.g. you can always write down larger amount of assets on your financial repoerts and call it manipulation. However it can be perfectly legal.

    Michael
     
    chrisp390
    Posts: 722
    Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 6:37 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:37 am

    The problem awaiting Airbus is a lot worse due to a lot of second tier carriers they have sold aircraft to who will be in a lot worse financial shape, if they even manage to survive the next few months. So expect a big drop in the Airbus order book, a lot of fairly new aircraft being repossessed/returned to lessors, and a lot of carriers simply refusing the aircraft at delivery as Air Asia recently did.
     
    User avatar
    Nomadd
    Posts: 389
    Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:07 am

    I hope stockholders don't get their news from UPI.
    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/04 ... 6355/?ls=3

    "U.S. aviation giant Boeing said in an earnings report Wednesday it lost $641 billion over the first three months of this year"
     
    LJ
    Posts: 5334
    Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:40 am

    sxf24 wrote:
    morrisond wrote:
    sxf24 wrote:

    Manipulation is a strong word as it implies illegal activity. You may want to reconsider how you choose to describe your opinion.


    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.


    If you believe there are violations of accounting rules or securities laws, there are ways to anonymously report it. Throwing out anonymous bombs on the internet is a special kind of cowardice.


    The word "manipulate" does not automatically imply illegal activity. As long as what you do is legal, there is no problem (at least from a regulator/accountant point of view). It's a little bit stronger than phrases as "window dressing", "ratio management" or "balance sheet management", though one would preferably use these phrases towards the regulators, accountants and outside world. However phrases like "cooking the books" are implying illegal activity.
     
    Scotron12
    Posts: 496
    Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:56 am

    Flying-Tiger wrote:
    jeffrey0032j wrote:
    For a comparison, Airbus burned through almost the same amount of cash in the same quarter. Considering Boeing's bigger size, and the Max crisis, the impact looks to be less severe for Boeing than for Airbus.


    I have to disagree. Airbus´ A320 production is still in full swing with all costs for supplier, work force etc. attached and payments to be made for all purchased sub assemblies etc. Boeings 737MAX production on the other hand has stopped and certainly does not have a similar cash outflow for engines, avionics etc etc.

    Boeing already had ~ 12 months to go into cash conservation mode, Airbus just got to this starting point. Both will improve, but Airbus has it´s full product line to improve on, Boeing "only" all other except for the 737MAX.

    Still fear 7 787 per month will be too much (same goes for the A350, too).


    Boeing has over 400 737MAX to deliver. Yet they will restart production at 31 per month next year. Their 787 production will decrease to 7 frames per month by 2022.

    Quick math: 7 months in 2020 Boeing will produce 70 787s (10×7). Then in 2021 they will produce another 110 787s (11×10). Gives us a grand total of 180 787s produced (potentially)

    Who's the buyer?? Which airline(s) have the finance or cash to buy 180 787s in the next 20 months. Given Boeings own estimate of air traffic not returning to 2019 levels before 2023/2024.
     
    User avatar
    par13del
    Posts: 10337
    Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:24 pm

    Scotron12 wrote:
    Boeing has over 400 737MAX to deliver. Yet they will restart production at 31 per month next year. Their 787 production will decrease to 7 frames per month by 2022.

    Quick math: 7 months in 2020 Boeing will produce 70 787s (10×7). Then in 2021 they will produce another 110 787s (11×10). Gives us a grand total of 180 787s produced (potentially)

    Who's the buyer?? Which airline(s) have the finance or cash to buy 180 787s in the next 20 months. Given Boeings own estimate of air traffic not returning to 2019 levels before 2023/2024.

    If you want to know who the buyer is just look at Boeing order book or review the airlines assigned to the a/c in the production slot, the a/c being produced this year and next were purchased prior to the MAX and the COVID crisis. The a/c were already bought, the question is whether the buyer has remorse, wants to defer or delay delivery.

    The question can be asked of Boeing future production slots, and since they reducing production rates, they are wiping out future slots for future buyers. Unlike cars, the a/c OEM's
    do not build white tails as a normal part of doing business.
     
    sxf24
    Posts: 1001
    Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:30 pm

    eamondzhang wrote:
    morrisond wrote:
    sxf24 wrote:

    Manipulation is a strong word as it implies illegal activity. You may want to reconsider how you choose to describe your opinion.


    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.

    Indeed, manipulation doesn't necessarily means illegal in finance terms at all.

    E.g. you can always write down larger amount of assets on your financial repoerts and call it manipulation. However it can be perfectly legal.

    Michael


    No, writing down assets at will is not legal. There are very strict rules and tests about how and when this occurs.

    LJ wrote:
    sxf24 wrote:
    morrisond wrote:

    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.


    If you believe there are violations of accounting rules or securities laws, there are ways to anonymously report it. Throwing out anonymous bombs on the internet is a special kind of cowardice.


    The word "manipulate" does not automatically imply illegal activity. As long as what you do is legal, there is no problem (at least from a regulator/accountant point of view). It's a little bit stronger than phrases as "window dressing", "ratio management" or "balance sheet management", though one would preferably use these phrases towards the regulators, accountants and outside world. However phrases like "cooking the books" are implying illegal activity.


    You can manage the balance sheet by borrowing or repaying debt, issuing stock or spending cash. You can’t just say, at the end of the quarter, we need to make this change to get a certain ratio or result. That is illegal.

    If there’s some manipulation that’s legal, and supposedly occurring, explain it.
     
    Sokes
    Posts: 1643
    Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:19 pm

    sxf24 wrote:
    eamondzhang wrote:
    morrisond wrote:

    I have 30 years in the Financial industry - Manipulation is one of the weakest words I could use.

    Indeed, manipulation doesn't necessarily means illegal in finance terms at all.

    E.g. you can always write down larger amount of assets on your financial repoerts and call it manipulation. However it can be perfectly legal.

    Michael


    No, writing down assets at will is not legal. There are very strict rules and tests about how and when this occurs.

    eamondzhang made a joke. It refers to the deferred production costs which Boeing considers an asset in the balance sheet. I agree the expression "write down" has a double meaning.
    Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
     
    Sokes
    Posts: 1643
    Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:22 pm

    Nomadd wrote:
    I hope stockholders don't get their news from UPI.
    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/04 ... 6355/?ls=3

    "U.S. aviation giant Boeing said in an earnings report Wednesday it lost $641 billion over the first three months of this year"

    Maybe they confused Boeing with a bank?
    Last edited by Sokes on Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
     
    AEROFAN
    Posts: 1862
    Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:23 pm

    morrisond wrote:
    A couple of funny things in the quarterly report - an $827 Million pre-tax charge on KC-46 and an $862 Million Income tax recovery.

    .


    $1B of income tax recovery? How? I don't understand this.
    “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
     
    User avatar
    enzo011
    Posts: 1901
    Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:40 pm

    par13del wrote:
    Scotron12 wrote:
    Boeing has over 400 737MAX to deliver. Yet they will restart production at 31 per month next year. Their 787 production will decrease to 7 frames per month by 2022.

    Quick math: 7 months in 2020 Boeing will produce 70 787s (10×7). Then in 2021 they will produce another 110 787s (11×10). Gives us a grand total of 180 787s produced (potentially)

    Who's the buyer?? Which airline(s) have the finance or cash to buy 180 787s in the next 20 months. Given Boeings own estimate of air traffic not returning to 2019 levels before 2023/2024.

    If you want to know who the buyer is just look at Boeing order book or review the airlines assigned to the a/c in the production slot, the a/c being produced this year and next were purchased prior to the MAX and the COVID crisis. The a/c were already bought, the question is whether the buyer has remorse, wants to defer or delay delivery.

    The question can be asked of Boeing future production slots, and since they reducing production rates, they are wiping out future slots for future buyers. Unlike cars, the a/c OEM's
    do not build white tails as a normal part of doing business.



    I see how it works, Airbus customers (the airlines out there in the world fighting for survival due to almost no flights happening) are in serious trouble and Airbus will be producing a lot of frames that will not be accepted by the airlines and will be returned to lessors or repossessed.

    Boeing on the other hand doesn't have this issue with their customers (the airlines, who is currently out there living the high life with 80% load factors) and they will all be able to accept the produced aircraft when they are ready for delivery. The only problem for Boeing will be the reduction will mean the empty slots will be reduced so future sales may be affected. Gotcha!
     
    StTim
    Posts: 3715
    Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:46 pm

    I believe many are once again trying to compare apples with oranges. Yes both framers burned through a similar amount of cash but from what I read this was the quarter when Airbus paid the fine for their bribery case. This skewed the figures considerably.
     
    morrisond
    Posts: 2731
    Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:07 pm

    StTim wrote:
    I believe many are once again trying to compare apples with oranges. Yes both framers burned through a similar amount of cash but from what I read this was the quarter when Airbus paid the fine for their bribery case. This skewed the figures considerably.


    Airbus burned through 8B Euro Including the fine - about 4.3B Euro without. The Euro was worth about 10% in the quarter so closer to $5B US.
     
    User avatar
    par13del
    Posts: 10337
    Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:35 pm

    enzo011 wrote:
    I see how it works, Airbus customers (the airlines out there in the world fighting for survival due to almost no flights happening) are in serious trouble and Airbus will be producing a lot of frames that will not be accepted by the airlines and will be returned to lessors or repossessed.

    If that is what you want to believe go ahead, to each his own.

    As far as I know, Airbus also produces a/c for clients who ordered years in advance and frames being produced this year and on the same time frame that the previous poster said all have buyers, if they did not, Airbus would not have been building the frames.

    Whether the a/c being produced in the next two years will be accepted or deferred is the question, not whether there are buyers. The bulk of these purchases also have financing already in place and stage payments were being made. If the airlines now want to defer or not take delivery they have to negotiate with the OEM's.
     
    LJ
    Posts: 5334
    Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:44 pm

    sxf24 wrote:
    You can manage the balance sheet by borrowing or repaying debt, issuing stock or spending cash. You can’t just say, at the end of the quarter, we need to make this change to get a certain ratio or result. That is illegal.


    Yes you can, it happens each quarter, and especially at yearend. Financial firms are an expert in doing this (if you've worked for a financial firm in accounting or regulatory reporting you know what I mean). Companies like Boeing have less options, but there are certainly ways to do this within your accounting policy.

    sxf24 wrote:
    If there’s some manipulation that’s legal, and supposedly occurring, explain it.


    Transfer pricing, impairments are some of the possibilities. Other include timing of contracts. I agree that the possibilities for a company as Boeing are somehow limited. Your accounting policy sets the boundries, however a company usually is working on those boundries when it suits them (hence why you have auditors) Is this manipulation? Off course. Does it happen? Nobody knows as nobody is going to tell you. However when raeding any income statement one has to take it for what's worth.
     
    sxf24
    Posts: 1001
    Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

    Re: Boeing announces wider Q1 loss, cuts 787/777 production and workforce

    Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:46 pm

    LJ wrote:
    sxf24 wrote:
    You can manage the balance sheet by borrowing or repaying debt, issuing stock or spending cash. You can’t just say, at the end of the quarter, we need to make this change to get a certain ratio or result. That is illegal.


    Yes you can, it happens each quarter, and especially at yearend. Financial firms are an expert in doing this (if you've worked for a financial firm in accounting or regulatory reporting you know what I mean). Companies like Boeing have less options, but there are certainly ways to do this within your accounting policy.

    sxf24 wrote:
    If there’s some manipulation that’s legal, and supposedly occurring, explain it.


    Transfer pricing, impairments are some of the possibilities. Other include timing of contracts. I agree that the possibilities for a company as Boeing are somehow limited. Your accounting policy sets the boundries, however a company usually is working on those boundries when it suits them (hence why you have auditors) Is this manipulation? Off course. Does it happen? Nobody knows as nobody is going to tell you. However when raeding any income statement one has to take it for what's worth.


    Again, there is no explanation of how Boeing could manipulate the balance sheet. Transfer pricing between parts of Boeing does not impact the balance sheet or earnings. Impairments are tested based on defined accounting policy and the CFO must assert each quarter to the US government that policies, both internal and GAAP, are being followed.

    I think people have an axe to grind of program accounting. It’s part of US GAAP, so get over it.

    Popular Searches On Airliners.net

    Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

    Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

    Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

    Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

    Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

    Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

    Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

    Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

    Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

    Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos