Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 16
 
Antarius
Posts: 2427
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing consiering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:42 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

But, I don't get why they want to release a 757-like plane to compete with the A321.
Wouldn't it be much easer to create a 737-replacement and lengthen it just like Airbus did?


Yeah, that worked so well with the Max...


Airbus took a 30 year old design and successfully updated it. Boeing took a 50 year old design (747) and successfully updated it (albeit not a commercial success).

It is doable. the Max had design limitations with ground clearance that complicated things. the 757 will not have this issue, much like the a320neo.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10637
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing consiering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:43 pm

gsg013 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I can see the 767-upgrade happening. The plane is still selling well and a relatively small investment could make it the go-to freighter for the coming decade(s).

But, I don't get why they want to release a 757-like plane to compete with the A321.
Wouldn't it be much easer to create a 737-replacement and lengthen it just like Airbus did?


"create a 737-replacement and lengthen it" that would be the 737-MAX which is a flop..

the biggest thing is the 737 is too low to the ground to add truly more efficient engines.. New Wing and new engines on the 757 type place could be a great idea.

But the A321 in essence is a “737-replacement” (A320) that was then lengthened. And it’s not a flop?

Obviously any Boeing designed 737-replacement would be sized for modern day engines. Reading comprehension matters people- ‘replacement’ and ‘update’ are not necessarily synonyms. The 737 Max is the latter not the former.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing consiering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:45 pm

Antarius wrote:
It is doable. the Max had design limitations with ground clearance that complicated things. the 757 will not have this issue, much like the a320neo.

757 has the problem that the factory that built it now builds 737s, the tools are either gone or in crates, the supply chain is gone and rebuilding it from scratch after it's been idle for 15 years would cost a tremendous amount of money.

Oh, and yeah, the article is not even suggesting this, it says Boeing is considering a clean sheet that is sized similar to 757.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:46 pm

Well. throwing ideas against the wall to see what sticks is no solution. Try a little this, try a little that? Quit wasting time and money on old, rehashed ideas.

I want drastic measures to ensure the long term viability of the industry in the United States.

1. Congress forms a bipartisan panel to guide the process and establish a temporary supervisory board.
2. Under the Defense Production Act, the U.S. government seizes control of the company and puts it into receivership.
3. Current and former executives arrested for negligence and manslaughter. Many mid-level managers fired. Take out the trash and cut the management level fat. Add support to the line-level workers, unions, apprenticeship programs.
4. HQ moved from Chicago back to Seattle.
5. Two companies created: one commercial aviation company and one defense/space company.
6. Temporary supervisory board appoints respective CEOs of the two companies.
7. The commercial aviation company is rebooted to focus on three Y1/Y2/Y3 products: Y1 is NSA or FSA, competing with E2/A220/A320; Y2 is NMA, competing with A321/XLR/A322; Y3 is essentially the 787NG, competing with the A350. Common cockpit from bottom to top. Freighter models would be based on the 777-8XF and the 787NG. If the market needs a VLA, it could be a double-decker twin based on Y3/77X.
8. The U.S. federal government/taxpayer remains a significant shareholder until losses have been recovered.
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2427
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:48 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
I still do not get the 767 size obsession.


Airlines seem to see the appeal. Fits a certain niche that no other plane currently does.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
Antarius
Posts: 2427
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing consiering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:49 pm

Revelation wrote:
Antarius wrote:
It is doable. the Max had design limitations with ground clearance that complicated things. the 757 will not have this issue, much like the a320neo.

757 has the problem that the factory that built it now builds 737s, the tools are either gone or in crates, the supply chain is gone and rebuilding it from scratch after it's been idle for 15 years would cost a tremendous amount of money.

Oh, and yeah, the article is not even suggesting this, it says Boeing is considering a clean sheet that is sized similar to 757.


I agree. Was just pointing out that a blanket statement that updating an old design is not inherently a bad idea.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 455
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:53 pm

sspontak wrote:
Could the cabin sidewalls be reduced in width enough to make the 767-X comfortable at 8 abreast seating?


Ssssh, don´t.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2743
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
The cost/benefit trade offs change totally when you start thinking about a new wing.

As above I think if you are considering spending the $$$ for a new wing you really should look at whether or not it makes more sense to invest that money into the 787 family rather than 767, since the big issue with the 767 is that its cross section is not efficient compared to A330. If you could design a lighter 787 wing with folding wingtips that could fit in 767 gates/docks you may capture the next generation of medium sized freighters and have a good MOM pax airliner as well.



This makes the most sense to me - it seems like they are determined to use the Wing factory for something - this makes the most sense - if they can get it significantly lighter than 788.
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:03 pm

I've seen a lot of comments (in this thread and others) that suggest that the 767s 2-3-2 cross section is not particularly efficient for either pax or freight.

I understand the freight argument (container sizes, etc.) but isn't that to some extent negated by just how common and popular 767 freighters have become? I don't mean the 767's popularity for freight somehow proves the argument wrong but I mean more in that there is, now at least, a huge amount of already existing 767 freight infrastructure (containers included) that could from a commonality cost-savings point of view largely off-set the inefficiencies. I imagine that changing the infrastructure would cost a lot of money. Could be wrong on this of course.

From a pax carrying perspective what it the real issue with the 2-3-2? Not questioning anyone, just genuinely curious. It would seem to me that if you want a 210-220 seat long-haul airliner (with a lie-flat J, maybe a real W product, etc.) a 2-4-2 or a 3-3-3 would be a rather stubby thing and a 3-3 narrowbody may be too long to really be efficient. Those are just guesses on my part though-I lack the real world information to really no for sure. Any illumination would be welcome. Why did Boeing choose it to begin with back in the day? Thanks.

It seems to me that if Boeing wants to create a true 767 replacement aircraft without going clean-sheet they either need to update a 767 or 787 frame, possibly with a smaller 787/777X based wing if they want to truly be competitive for pax sales (freight could probably just do with a 764 frame and wing with GEnx I imagine). I guess the question would be which frame makes more sense for Boeing to work from in that case.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
The real problem with 767 is that its cross section is inefficient for...freight.


Is it though?


randomdude83 wrote:
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just launch the 787-8 frighter and then maybe focus on making the pax 788 lighter?


Well Boeing has been pulling significant weight out of the 787-8 for years, but a new 787-8 freighter will be much more expensive than a new 767-300F freighter and the overall numbers might not favor the 787 - especially for operators who already have very large 767 freighter fleets.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:30 pm

A 757Max would be a terrible competitor against the A321XLR. If the fate of Boeing depends of the people who have this kind of idea we should expect a Boeing bailout in the terms of the GM bailout post 2008 very soon.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1623
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:31 pm

Wouldn't it be better to convert existing passenger Dreamliners to freighters instead of building low margin 767 freighters new in order to trigger demand for new passenger 787 sales? This will be some years of low demand ahead so let's soak up what is idling on the market first and generate higher margin new plane orders.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:44 pm

Noshow wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to convert existing passenger Dreamliners to freighters instead of building low margin 767 freighters new in order to trigger demand for new passenger 787 sales? This will be some years of low demand ahead so let's soak up what is idling on the market first and generate higher margin new plane orders.


The 767s might not be all that low-margin (the commercial ones going to UPS and FedEx, anyway). Boeing significantly lowered the unit costs with the new FAL and the line is now at full rate.

Regardless of their margin, they're still going to be cheaper in terms of Average Sales Price than a 787-8 freighter (new-build or converted) and a 787-8 freighter is not going to easily fit into the infrastructure of major 767 operators like UPS, FedEx and Amazon.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1115
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:50 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:

From a pax carrying perspective what it the real issue with the 2-3-2? Not questioning anyone, just genuinely curious.


Because you add an aisle an get only 1 extra seat. Since cross section is proportional to the square of the diameter a lot of drag for only 16% more seats per row.

The conventional wisdom is you need to amortize the cost of the aisle with at least 2 extra seats. Then you get LD3s under the floor.

—-

With the square law 8 is not better than 7 per my simple calculations of frontal area per passenger though, but if one can do some non-circular cross section .....
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 928
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:56 pm

Assuming this all comes to fruition, and that's a big if...

It will be interesting to see if Boeing goes for a standard cockpit design like they did with the original 757 and 767 to allow for a standard type rating. Were this cockpit also common with later build 777s, then it would go a long way towards reducing training costs and allowing airlines scheduling flexibility with their pilots. Thoughts?
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:06 pm

scbriml wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
i kinda like the name '757+'


I want to naming three new version of 757: 757X, 757XS and 757XS Max :duck:
Those literally make sense.


Seriously? If launched it would be a brand new plane and not called 757Anything.


We don’t know that.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:17 pm

Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The real problem with 767 is that its cross section is inefficient for...freight.

Is it though?

Seems that way to me, although it's hard to get side by side numbers.
http://brinkley.cc/AC/b762f.htm
https://www.bringeraircargo.com/aircraf ... a330-200f/
767s sell largely because they are cheap to acquire and because the infrastructure is already set up to deal with them, not because of their efficiency IMO.

Stitch wrote:
The 767s might not be all that low-margin (the commercial ones going to UPS and FedEx, anyway). Boeing significantly lowered the unit costs with the new FAL and the line is now at full rate.

Or they might be low-margin because Boeing needed the gap fillers till it could get to what it thought would be the high margin KC-46s, and once the low gap filling price was established the customers weren't willing to pay more. I doubt they are losing money on them, but also I doubt they're making a lot. The cash cow was supposed to be the tankers, yet these are suffering from cost overruns, penalties and customer hold backs due to missing or defective features.

Stitch wrote:
Regardless of their margin, they're still going to be cheaper in terms of Average Sales Price than a 787-8 freighter (new-build or converted) and a 787-8 freighter is not going to easily fit into the infrastructure of major 767 operators like UPS, FedEx and Amazon.

Correct. It's another aspect of why Boeing would spend the $$$ to put a new wing on the 767. The plane already is efficient in terms of airfield parking, and adding a new wing is going to be very expensive just for few percent gain in fuel burn so it's hard to see how it would pay off.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
smartplane
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:21 pm

Who is going to buy and finance any new aircraft?

Boeing has already ensured model upgrades, like engines and scaling are going to go under the FAA / EASA microscope.

There is minimal acquisition interest. What little exists, customers want OEM's to reduce prices, provide funding, negotiate lower engine maintenance contracts, and offer inflated trade ins.

With the current global fleet size, projected passenger demand and oil prices, the market will be characterised by low fleet utilisation, leading to increased theoretical life and lower new and used parts prices.

This is not an environment which will trigger any new model development, whether clean sheet or warm overs.
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:22 pm

I can see a 767-NG for the freighter market as a way to create an inexpensive product that makes it more difficult for Airbus to get back in the game. It makes some sense. A 757-NG makes no sense. Boeing needs a modular architecture for a single aisle FSA/NSA product that can be adjusted from 5-6 abreast and re-winged to compete with the E2/A220/A320/A321/XLR/A322.
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3711
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:23 pm

I have the perfect name:

757 SE
767 SE plus
Ain't I a stinker?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8088
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Regardless of their margin, they're still going to be cheaper in terms of Average Sales Price than a 787-8 freighter (new-build or converted) and a 787-8 freighter is not going to easily fit into the infrastructure of major 767 operators like UPS, FedEx and Amazon.

Correct. It's another aspect of why Boeing would spend the $$$ to put a new wing on the 767. The plane already is efficient in terms of airfield parking, and adding a new wing is going to be very expensive just for few percent gain in fuel burn so it's hard to see how it would pay off.


I'm not sure if you're agreeing with Stitch that a new wing makes sense for the 767?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8088
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:29 pm

smartplane wrote:
Who is going to buy and finance any new aircraft?

Boeing has already ensured model upgrades, like engines and scaling are going to go under the FAA / EASA microscope.

There is minimal acquisition interest. What little exists, customers want OEM's to reduce prices, provide funding, negotiate lower engine maintenance contracts, and offer inflated trade ins.

With the current global fleet size, projected passenger demand and oil prices, the market will be characterised by low fleet utilisation, leading to increased theoretical life and lower new and used parts prices.

This is not an environment which will trigger any new model development, whether clean sheet or warm overs.


What's the clarity and time horizon of your crystal ball? Think you know with any certainty what the market's going to be four or five years out? Apply for a job as CEO of Southwest, United, IAG, Airbus or Boeing, because you know more than they do - they've all announced they don't know.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11829
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:32 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, the tooling for the 757 is gone right? So no 757plus/max/ng or what ever Furthermore, why would Boeing - even if Boeing could invest billions right now - do a 757 type plane? Would make no sense to me, a 757 type plane would be a nice addition to a 737MAX replacement.

767NG/MAX would be nice though.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, the tooling for the 757 is gone right?


It's not "gone", per se, as in being physically destroyed. But it might as well be because even if Boeing has it's tooling to assemble fuselage and wing panels into complete fuselages and wings, their suppliers might no longer have the tooling to actually build those panels.

And even if they did and Boeing and their suppliers had the facilities to make brand-new 757s, they wouldn't because the market is not there outside of players of Airport Tycoon. And they'd probably still end up bankrupt and lose. :rotfl:
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with Stitch that a new wing makes sense for the 767?

My position is that it doesn't make sense to put a new wing on the 767.

I also agree with the position that there is no market for aircraft improvements in the near future.

I think if anything is going to be done it will be to fill current commitments (MAX RTS, 779 EIS, MAX10 EIS, etc).

But if somehow one could justify a new wing to address the "MOM" space I'd think it'd end up on a smaller 787 rather than a 767.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
But if somehow one could justify a new wing to address the "MOM" space I'd think it'd end up on a smaller 787 rather than a 767.


Considering how that smaller (shorter) wing so negatively impacted the 787-3 (and to a lesser extent, the smaller / shorter 787-8 wing impacted the 787-9 and 787-10), I don't see Boeing going down that route.

I am also skeptical about Boeing making major modifications to the 767 family, but we've heard about them off and on for close to a decade now so somebody is/are nudging Boeing to at least look into it, even if in the end they so far have not been willing to put down cash and orders to make it happen.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2951
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:56 pm

Well, a B767-200 size 767-X would come very handy to replace the B737-MAX 9/10.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7288
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:59 pm

A 767+ would be a big thorn in the side of the A330neo, but I’m sure it’s too little too late.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:03 pm

More paper airplanes.
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 928
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:11 pm

With the current global fleet size, projected passenger demand and oil prices, the market will be characterised by low fleet utilisation, leading to increased theoretical life and lower new and used parts prices.

This is not an environment which will trigger any new model development, whether clean sheet or warm overs.


It depends. If an airline has an older, less fuel efficient fleet and wants or needs a more fuel efficient plane for a cheaper price going forward, then a newish 757/767 style of plane might fit the bill. It might be cheaper in the long run to retire the older planes and then replace them as the economy slowly rebounds. Lufthansa is doing this now with its A340s and B744s, retiring them now, but what will they have to fly after the eventual recovery? When the economy does come back, the right combination of oil and acquisition costs might make such "new" planes financially viable.

In the end, none of us really knows what will happen. As with all things, time will tell.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19126
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:12 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Antaras wrote:

I want to naming three new version of 757: 757X, 757XS and 757XS Max :duck:
Those literally make sense.


Seriously? If launched it would be a brand new plane and not called 757Anything.


We don’t know that.


The Reuters article says they’re looking at a new 757-like plane. It won’t be called a 757 because it won’t be a 757.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
proudpilot94
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 4:08 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:26 pm

Antaras wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
i kinda like the name '757+'


I want to naming three new version of 757: 757X, 757XS and 757XS Max :duck:
Those literally make sense.


Boeing SE? Lol

Seriously speaking, Boeing could build a whole new airplane, throw a nose section similar to the 757 one and call it 757 plus, max, pro, etc and save the 797 number for another project.
 
Redsand187
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:47 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:30 pm

CPHGuard wrote:
Don't you think Boeing are done, messing with +40 year old airliner designs, to revamp outdated technology?
The track record isn't exactly stellar.

Does Boeing really appear to be a company that learns from its mistakes rather than going for the cheap way out?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:32 pm

Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
But if somehow one could justify a new wing to address the "MOM" space I'd think it'd end up on a smaller 787 rather than a 767.

Considering how that smaller (shorter) wing so negatively impacted the 787-3 (and to a lesser extent, the smaller / shorter 787-8 wing impacted the 787-9 and 787-10), I don't see Boeing going down that route.

Yeah, it's just a thought experiment. Yet the -3 wing was really just the -8 wing with a winglet at the appropriate place to fit into the 767 gates. Now if you did a whole wing for the MOM it would not need to hold so much fuel so would not need as much volume, and you could use folding wing tips to keep the efficiency up across the entire span with a higher aspect ratio. It's been a dozen or so years since they did the -8 wing and I can hope/imagine they'd do a better job if they had the ability to focus on a different mission than -8 had.

Stitch wrote:
I am also skeptical about Boeing making major modifications to the 767 family, but we've heard about them off and on for close to a decade now so somebody is/are nudging Boeing to at least look into it, even if in the end they so far have not been willing to put down cash and orders to make it happen.

I think it's mostly "slow news day" kind of stuff. We had the enhanced 767 for United trial balloons floated when Boeing was trying to keep them on side. We had the freighter / -400X idea floated near air show season, with a GE executive talking it up because they liked the idea of selling more GEnX. Lots of sizzle, not much bacon.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:33 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
More paper airplanes.


Probably more newspaper airplanes (as in they are being made up by the media).
 
OB1504
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
The real problem with 767 is that its cross section is inefficient for pax and inefficient for freight. Airbus would be able to sell cheap A330neo and/or upgraded A321s or the eventual A322s and kill it dead. That, along with its aging systems tech and inefficient production line tech, makes it hard to see how they could justify building a new wing for it. If you wanted to own that segment you'd be better off designing a new light weight wing and wing box for a smaller 787/787F, one with folding wing tips able to fit into 767 gates/docks at FX and UPS.


The popularity of the 767 as a freighter compared to the anemic sales of the A330 freighter would beg to differ.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Seriously? If launched it would be a brand new plane and not called 757Anything.


We don’t know that.


The Reuters article says they’re looking at a new 757-like plane. It won’t be called a 757 because it won’t be a 757.


Boeing are running out of numbers.

We don’t know what they’ll do, unless I am missing something?

It may be a different aircraft, but they could reuse the name. Or they could do something different. We just don’t know and cannot rule anything out.

Will it be like cars?

A 3 series BMW of today is very different to the 3 series of the 80s. But they share a name.

Who knows what will happen.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:56 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The real problem with 767 is that its cross section is inefficient for pax and inefficient for freight. Airbus would be able to sell cheap A330neo and/or upgraded A321s or the eventual A322s and kill it dead. That, along with its aging systems tech and inefficient production line tech, makes it hard to see how they could justify building a new wing for it. If you wanted to own that segment you'd be better off designing a new light weight wing and wing box for a smaller 787/787F, one with folding wing tips able to fit into 767 gates/docks at FX and UPS.

The popularity of the 767 as a freighter compared to the anemic sales of the A330 freighter would beg to differ.

If everything else was equal, you'd have a good point.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 3179
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:10 am

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Boeing is still selling fighter jets and not at loss. The USAF has bought the new and improved F-15 EX. Boeing's military side will give it the ability to weather the the myriad of mistakes on the commercial side. If What AB says is true about their financial position, Boeing could use the time to catch up to the A321 Frankensteins.

How much are they making on the KC-46 contract?
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
reltney
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 am

Revelation wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
The 757 is not in production anymore. The tooling has been destroyed.

Yet post 25 says:

reltney wrote:
Well, it was in AWST less than a year ago. The 757ish plane was a slightly redesigned wing, mainly the fuselage/wing joint for better efficiency for production and flight. Many forget why the 757 production gave in to the 737 stretch/stretched and stretched again plus another stretch, was the cost difference and it was due to the wing fuselage Attachment. Same fuselage, different type of wing mounting. For the naysayers.... The 757 tooling was not destroyed. Go on the tour, they will show you where it is, along with 727 tooling... The fuselage size mentioned was between the 200 and 300 size. The 757 clearly beats the 321 in all aspects except fuel flow and heck, I like the slightly wider fuselage of the 320 series......who doesn’t. New engines take care of fuel flow problem. I have flown both. #s don’t lie...facts are facts.

Let the lost war of opinion start .............now..

Cheers

Lord knows where the truth is. The big deal is the supply chain doesn't exist any more, and setting it all up again would mean a lot of FAA production certificates have lapsed and would need new FAA evaluations to reinstate. Very expensive task.

william wrote:
The 777X program cost 7-10 Billion dollars for in essence a new wing and engines. Which is going to give Boeing and its customers (actual price) the biggest bang for the buck. A rewinged and engine 787? Or 767? Either program will be in production for a long time.

It's hard to evaluate.

The 767 production line was reorganized when the tanker deal was signed but I doubt it is as efficient as the 787 line. The 767 cockpit displays have been modernized and some new features added, but once you get past that, most of the systems are old designs. For instance you do not get the data you can use for predictive maintenance. Yet we read some operators prefer to avoid all that stuff and stick with old tech. Slapping GEnX from 747-8 on to the current wing seems to be a good compromise with regard to cost versus benefit, at least if/when oil prices return to historical trends.

The cost/benefit trade offs change totally when you start thinking about a new wing.

As above I think if you are considering spending the $$$ for a new wing you really should look at whether or not it makes more sense to invest that money into the 787 family rather than 767, since the big issue with the 767 is that its cross section is not efficient compared to A330. If you could design a lighter 787 wing with folding wingtips that could fit in 767 gates/docks you may capture the next generation of medium sized freighters and have a good MOM pax airliner as well.



Agree... I think you are Spot On...

Time will tell and its a great thread. It’s not a BvsA, it’s a “what will they do” . Gotta tell you, it will be a great plane...

Cheers!
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:29 am

I guess Boeing finally started hiring Anutters
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7075
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:05 am

As if in answer to the questions here..... :spin:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 49.article
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 707
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:16 am

The 757 takes a beating because of its weight. The wing, which was top of the line when it was introduced is extremely heavy by today's standards. The engines are heavy because of the materials they had to use back then to make the thrust necessary. The fuselage itself isn't too bad. Stretching it 12 feet won't hurt. A new wing box, wing and engines will bring it very close to the A321NEO/XLR. However, if they're going for a clean sheet design, the fuselage will definitely be in a position that it could lose some serious weight even while lengthening the 200 model.

The supply chain doesn't matter when you look at the 777 and 787 alone. The 747 chain has evolved from the 400 to the 8. The 737 from NG to Max.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
flyinggoat
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:38 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:01 am

A new 757 isn't going to happen, and that's not even what the article says. Something the size of a 757 will happen at some point, but it will probably be a part of whatever replaces the 737.

Putting a new wing and engines on a 767 is a dumb idea. If I had stock in Boeing, and they did that, I'd sell my stock. New engines make some sense, but a new wing? No. Putting the resources towards a new wing/landing gear/engines for a 787-3 or maybe even a 787-2 would be a better idea, but even that isn't so great of a plan. A 787-10ER and 787-11 would be a better use of resources.

I still have hopes in the light twin idea that was talked about so much last year, but my feeling is that will never happen.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10337
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:23 am

Revelation wrote:
As above I think if you are considering spending the $$$ for a new wing you really should look at whether or not it makes more sense to invest that money into the 787 family rather than 767, since the big issue with the 767 is that its cross section is not efficient compared to A330. If you could design a lighter 787 wing with folding wingtips that could fit in 767 gates/docks you may capture the next generation of medium sized freighters and have a good MOM pax airliner as well.

The option of modifying the 787-8 was there when the NMA / MOM debate was at its peak, however it does not appear as if Boeing offered up a modified 787 even based on the -3, my assumption is that they do not think they can get the necessary weight out of the a/c, so new wing alone will not work.

As for the 767, the A330 already moved the market up, the 767-200 is in the region of where the MOM is supposed to sit, rather than the cost of the wing being the main impediment my thought is that the FAA will be the major obstacle, they will want too many updates to the cockpit systems. Like the 737, the limitations of the 767 are known.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3585
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:41 am

The 767 idea seems intriguing, given that the B763 became a 6000 nmi plane (with winglets) despite being less than 200t MTOW. The 767 actually got an increase in production, and the US3 and Air Canada would have to be at least intrigued at renewing a sub-200t long-haul plane. The question is: how would this be received in areas like Southeast Asia, given that the Boeing 767 is a 40-year old design? (Something needs to fill the 200-250 seat market that's a wide-body.) I wonder how the B748's engines on the B763 would work (the B744 and the B763 did share engines, especially GE-powered models). Was there ever a PW4060-powered B744?
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:57 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Right now, Boeing is not in a position to spend billion of dollars on new airplane developments.

But they have all the tools needed to digitally update both models with fly by wire flight control systems, New Engines and advanced flight control systems like the 78X
series. And? They would have 2 damn awesome airplanes..
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:01 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The 767 idea seems intriguing, given that the B763 became a 6000 nmi plane (with winglets) despite being less than 200t MTOW. The 767 actually got an increase in production, and the US3 and Air Canada would have to be at least intrigued at renewing a sub-200t long-haul plane. The question is: how would this be received in areas like Southeast Asia, given that the Boeing 767 is a 40-year old design? (Something needs to fill the 200-250 seat market that's a wide-body.) I wonder how the B748's engines on the B763 would work (the B744 and the B763 did share engines, especially GE-powered models). Was there ever a PW4060-powered B744?

the 744 was powered by the -4056 and was interchangeable to the 767 with -4060's as all you had to do was change the plug in the EEC.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:18 am

This is where I chime in to say, smaller is almost certainly better when market conditions are weak. A bigger airplane only wins when conditions are consistently super strong.

Accordingly, a new 10-11 hour 200 seater is going to make more money for more airlines than a new 12 hour 375 seater. This is a hard fact to realize until you stare at what a money losing route’s financial impact truly looks like. It’s one of the ugliest things you ever saw in your life. You might sacrifice some profit in July, but you lose less money every Tuesday and every Wednesday and during the September-February low season (Northern hemisphere). It is far easier to make money with small aircraft. A very broadly true statement.
 
planecane
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:28 am

Revelation wrote:
zkojq wrote:
So at this point our friends in Seattle and/or Chicago are just throwing paper planes at a whiteboard and seeing what hits?

The NMA mkIV or V has same problem as it's predecessor did five years ago: nobody is going to pay a worthwhile premium over an A321neo (or an XLR now that's been launched) for an aircraft that is only marginally bigger and has only marginally better range and CASM? Any premium customers do pay over a neo won't be enough to cover the development costs, especially considering how the ship that was the 757-200 replacement market has sailed long, long ago. Yes there's a handful of 757-300s that don't have a direct replacement, but that's nowhere near enough to launch a program. How many planes will they sell? 200? 250? What's changed to make the business case work?

I think covid means there will be less of a middle of the market. Border crossings may come with quarantine requirements so there will be less international travel. The 737/A320 family can do pretty much every domestic market. Boeing will be short of cash, so will airlines. I can't see how any of this can make the market in the next five years. Maybe a simple mod to put GEnX on 767 to keep selling freighters past the 2024(?) date where CF6s won't be allowed on new airplanes due to pollution regulations. That would be enough of a program to at least keep some development engineers and flight testers engaged till we know more about the post-covid world. Boeing's still got to do MAX RTS, MAX-10 EIS, 779 EIS, etc so there's still a few tasks coming down the pike.

Even new engines on the 767 will put EIS after any covid-19 international quarantines. Anything more complex the next pandemic will be the risk. There will be a vaccine in 2 years max.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 16

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos