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2175301
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:55 am

My reading of the article is that it's largely just rehashing old discussions and news. The NMA was shut down. Boeing has looked at upgrading the 767 in the past. They see a need for a 757 sized aircraft in the future (that was considered in the NMA studies). The only possible new news is that Boeing looked at not just engines for a 767 upgrade, but also looked at wings as well. Didn't say any decision was made. Just that they looked at it.

I would expect that both Boeing and Airbus regularly have people looking at existing aircraft and asking questions about what could be done with new wings and new engines, or other modifications. That's normal business.

Overall, In my opinion, the articles seems to be the result of "SNDS" (Slow News Day Syndrome).

Have a great day,
 
acechip
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:15 am

A re-engined B767-200 would have been a perfect foil to anything that Airbus thought wrt A321, It could operate on sub 3000m runways and fly 4000nm routes.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:30 am

LCDFlight wrote:
This is where I chime in to say, smaller is almost certainly better when market conditions are weak. A bigger airplane only wins when conditions are consistently super strong.

Accordingly, a new 10-11 hour 200 seater is going to make more money for more airlines than a new 12 hour 375 seater. This is a hard fact to realize until you stare at what a money losing route’s financial impact truly looks like. It’s one of the ugliest things you ever saw in your life. You might sacrifice some profit in July, but you lose less money every Tuesday and every Wednesday and during the September-February low season (Northern hemisphere). It is far easier to make money with small aircraft. A very broadly true statement.



What airline Ceo said: No airline has ever gone bankrupt flying an airplane that was to small.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:13 am

FlyingViking wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
This is where I chime in to say, smaller is almost certainly better when market conditions are weak. A bigger airplane only wins when conditions are consistently super strong.

Accordingly, a new 10-11 hour 200 seater is going to make more money for more airlines than a new 12 hour 375 seater. This is a hard fact to realize until you stare at what a money losing route’s financial impact truly looks like. It’s one of the ugliest things you ever saw in your life. You might sacrifice some profit in July, but you lose less money every Tuesday and every Wednesday and during the September-February low season (Northern hemisphere). It is far easier to make money with small aircraft. A very broadly true statement.



What airline Ceo said: No airline has ever gone bankrupt flying an airplane that was to small.


People used to not believe it. But now, circumstances make it clear. The amazing Bombardier A220 is the best airplane for many jobs today. And over the long term. Fly some older flexible capacity in peak months. Your base capacity should be nimble, reliable, as small as you can get away with. Smallest aircraft that keep the network up and attract high yield business traffic. True now but it was true before too.
 
tcfc424
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:57 am

The 757 thought has some merit. I know, I know, it's our dream. I'm not saying remake it, I'm saying take the basics and start from there. My thoughts:

Composite fuselage (ala 787) and widen it a little so the interior isn't so narrow. (AA's Y seats were just 16.3" wide) This might even be possible through the advancement of the sidewall construction and materials.. That will lighten the aircraft up a lot. Same with the wing...similar in size and design, but use composite products where capable. Add new flight controls and engines and you have an aircraft *similar* to the 757 that is fully updated and made much lighter. Also, boarding through door 2L should be a requirement of the plan. It's not a completely new aircraft, but it's also not just an upgrade to an existing model. It would also help if it shared a type-rating.

Long and thin international routes had become quite the boon, and was the reason for the resurgence of the 757 after/as production was closing. That is likely to be a trend that continues. The A321XLR is a good aircraft, but some of the desires are at the max range of that jet. By lightening up the 757X or whatever it would be called, as well as the new engines, I would think range could be increased significantly over the current 757.

I never have understood why Boeing hasn't taken the lessons learned with the 787 (composites) and applied it to 737/757/767 aircraft. It's my understanding they have applied some of these techniques to the 77X.

*edited for spelling
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:43 am

morrisond wrote:

Put 787/777X wing on Photocopier and hit reduce - no need to push technology in an era of low fuel cost.



How long do you expect this low fuel cost era to last? It could be over long before Boeing has designed tested and launched anything.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:21 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Boeing are running out of numbers.


That is actually the funniest thing I've read in a long time. :lol:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:20 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
We don’t know what they’ll do, unless I am missing something?

It may be a different aircraft, but they could reuse the name. Or they could do something different. We just don’t know and cannot rule anything out.

Will it be like cars?

A 3 series BMW of today is very different to the 3 series of the 80s. But they share a name.

Who knows what will happen.


Next to the 797 can be the 7J7 or 7X7, but what next? 7117 and then 7127 and then 7137?

That is when we need a 757 Plus, 757 Pro, 757 Max (no, please don't), 757 Pro Max, 757X, 757XS, 757XS Max or even the 757XR, 757SE, 757FE or anything else. Or Being need to create a new method of naming aircraft series :duck:
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alitis
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:19 pm

What airline Ceo said: No airline has ever gone bankrupt flying an airplane that was to small.


Didn't Gordon Bethune form Continental say something like that when they took delivery of 767-200's in 2000?

-alitis
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:46 pm

alitis wrote:
What airline Ceo said: No airline has ever gone bankrupt flying an airplane that was to small.


Didn't Gordon Bethune form Continental say something like that when they took delivery of 767-200's in 2000?

-alitis


He probably did, but I think the quote was coined even before that. Then there is the picture of a Pan Am 747-200 next to a Southwest 737-200 with the text: Bigger isn't always better. Not quite an apples to apples comparison of course. Two different airline models, but the point gets thru.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Put 787/777X wing on Photocopier and hit reduce - no need to push technology in an era of low fuel cost.



How long do you expect this low fuel cost era to last? It could be over long before Boeing has designed tested and launched anything.


Before Covid had even happened I would have said Oil long term is trending back to less than $20 per barrel (where is was in 1998)

Technology is making Oil very accessible and a lot cheaper and long term demand will fall - not grow. Sovereigns are willing to sell it at a loss to generate cash flow and employ people.

The inflection point will be when it is cheaper to make Electric Cars than Gas - which should happen sometime around 2025-2026.

Transport trucks I'm sure will probably follow 5-7 years later.

Long term - It will be emission regulations that drive new Airliner design - not necessarily fuel cost (although a lot of future fuel cost could be even more tax than is charged on it now).

Pop new wings and engines on an old tube and it is not that less efficient than a new state of the art design.

Things won't really change until we start building much more complex fuselage shapes.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
I think covid means there will be less of a middle of the market. Border crossings may come with quarantine requirements so there will be less international travel.


Agreed for a few years certainly. For the Middle Of The Market though I guess this will be offset a little by airlines wanting to downgauge 6-7 hour 767/787/A330 routes to A321N or 737-8MAXs.

Revelation wrote:
The 737/A320 family can do pretty much every domestic market. Boeing will be short of cash, so will airlines. I can't see how any of this can make the market in the next five years.

True

Revelation wrote:
Maybe a simple mod to put GEnX on 767 to keep selling freighters past the 2024(?) date where CF6s won't be allowed on new airplanes due to pollution regulations. That would be enough of a program to at least keep some development engineers and flight testers engaged till we know more about the post-covid world.


I don't disagree specifically, but at what point is it more profitable for Boeing to drop the 767F and replace it with a 787F with the 787 lines now running at a higher, more efficient production rate?

What costs more to develop + certify; a 767MAX freighter or a 787-8 freighter? If the 767MAX is going to have heavy GENX engines then the wing will need strengthening and if you're strengthening the wing, you might as well clean up the flaps to reduce drag and so the can of worms is opened. :scratchchin:

If you assume the 767MAX freighter costs broadly as much to develop and certify as the A330neo, how long does it take to pay back, bearing in mind the 767's low production rate? NPV can't be great, surely?

clickhappy wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

The 757 is not in production anymore. The tooling has been destroyed.



That is false. The tooling still exists.


Where is it?
First to fly the 787-9
 
IWMBH
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:54 pm

zkojq wrote:
clickhappy wrote:

That is false. The tooling still exists.


Where is it?[/quote]

And more important, where is your source?
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:36 pm

par13del wrote:
As for the 767, the A330 already moved the market up

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The question is: how would this be received in areas like Southeast Asia, given that the Boeing 767 is a 40-year old design? (Something needs to fill the 200-250 seat market that's a wide-body.)

At pain of bashing for annoyingly bringing this up time and time again, the A338 had been staring everybody in the face for most of the recent past, largely ignored...now certified and cleared for ETOPS beyond 180 minutes..... :arrow:

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 35.article

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 97.article

However, given current worldwide contraction of travel and cargo demand, cheap fuel, and the possibility of cheaper production in China - it offers Asian carriers a very flexible mid/long haul platform for when the industry rebounds. Doubtful the competition would come up with a new reiteration of the wheel within that timeframe.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:38 pm

acechip wrote:
A re-engined B767-200 would have been a perfect foil to anything that Airbus thought wrt A321, It could operate on sub 3000m runways and fly 4000nm routes.

And with today technology, the frame doesn't have to be as heavy as the original B767-200.
Add to that Airbus A321, anything that Boeing wanted with B737-10MAX.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
mig17
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:42 pm

Great idea from Boeing, the 737MAX, A330NEO and 777-X being tremendous succes, lets also revamp 757 and 767.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:50 pm

How light could an 787 Derived design be with lighter Wingbox/Wing/Gear/ Engines smaller tail - Optimized for say 5,500nm range and with folding tips to fit into 767 gates like Revelation is suggesting?

From our discussion on NMA/NSA - the A320 tube is only about 3-4% of the MTOW whole plane. So the Big 9W Fuselage may not be that much of a penalty.

How hard would it be to get it down to 160-180T MTOW or lower?

788 Length would be NMA-L with 4,800NM range with something like a 50M as the NMA-S at 5,500NM?

Nothing else to discuss.
 
Ufsatp
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:11 pm

mig17 wrote:
Great idea from Boeing, the 737MAX, A330NEO and 777-X being tremendous succes, lets also revamp 757.


Except that Boeing never said they were going to revamp the 757.
 
planecane
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:36 pm

morrisond wrote:

The inflection point will be when it is cheaper to make Electric Cars than Gas - which should happen sometime around 2025-2026.

Transport trucks I'm sure will probably follow 5-7 years later.



Battery costs won't come down fast enough to make an electric care that isn't subsidized cheaper than and ICE car in that time frame. It will be a while before they are on par with each other even taking into account higher oil prices and the lifetime energy cost savings.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:47 pm

planecane wrote:
morrisond wrote:

The inflection point will be when it is cheaper to make Electric Cars than Gas - which should happen sometime around 2025-2026.

Transport trucks I'm sure will probably follow 5-7 years later.



Battery costs won't come down fast enough to make an electric care that isn't subsidized cheaper than and ICE car in that time frame. It will be a while before they are on par with each other even taking into account higher oil prices and the lifetime energy cost savings.


I would have to disagree with that - they have fallen 87% in the last decade and the trend does not seem to be ending anytime soon. There are $10 of Billions being spent on battery research right now (maybe less going forward with Covid changes). Electric cars are much simpler than ICE.

We will all be driving glorified Golf Carts by 2030 even if we are actually controlling them.

https://www.marketplace.org/2019/12/03/ ... d-for-evs/
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:52 pm

morrisond wrote:
How light could an 787 Derived design be with lighter Wingbox/Wing/Gear/ Engines smaller tail - Optimized for say 5,500nm range and with folding tips to fit into 767 gates like Revelation is suggesting?
From our discussion on NMA/NSA - the A320 tube is only about 3-4% of the MTOW whole plane. So the Big 9W Fuselage may not be that much of a penalty.
How hard would it be to get it down to 160-180T MTOW or lower?
788 Length would be NMA-L with 4,800NM range with something like a 50M as the NMA-S at 5,500NM?
Nothing else to discuss.


Current 787-8 has an MTOW of 250T. ... 250T to 180T is a 28% reduction, 250T to 180T is a 36% reduction.
Even a 767-200 has an MTOW of 158T, but it's range falls very short of what your are describing..
I suspect everything about a 5.5k nm 787 gen2 redeaux would be heavy. Real challenge is cost. 787 is a premium baseline.
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morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:00 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
morrisond wrote:
How light could an 787 Derived design be with lighter Wingbox/Wing/Gear/ Engines smaller tail - Optimized for say 5,500nm range and with folding tips to fit into 767 gates like Revelation is suggesting?
From our discussion on NMA/NSA - the A320 tube is only about 3-4% of the MTOW whole plane. So the Big 9W Fuselage may not be that much of a penalty.
How hard would it be to get it down to 160-180T MTOW or lower?
788 Length would be NMA-L with 4,800NM range with something like a 50M as the NMA-S at 5,500NM?
Nothing else to discuss.


Current 787-8 has an MTOW of 250T. ... 250T to 180T is a 28% reduction, 250T to 180T is a 36% reduction.
Even a 767-200 has an MTOW of 158T, but it's range falls very short of what your are describing..
I suspect everything about a 5.5k nm 787 gen2 redeaux would be heavy. Real challenge is cost. 787 is a premium baseline.


Try 228T for an 788.

The 767-300 at 158T was good for 3,900 NM - that with a new Wing and Modern Engines could easily be good for 5,500NM

The 300ER at 187T was good for about 6,000NM. - New Wing and new engines should get that range and be a lot lighter. Or a 50M long 787 for similar capacity.

The 767-200 was 143T for 3,900 NM.

Take your pick.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:30 pm

morrisond wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
morrisond wrote:
How light could an 787 Derived design be with lighter Wingbox/Wing/Gear/ Engines smaller tail - Optimized for say 5,500nm range and with folding tips to fit into 767 gates like Revelation is suggesting?
From our discussion on NMA/NSA - the A320 tube is only about 3-4% of the MTOW whole plane. So the Big 9W Fuselage may not be that much of a penalty.
How hard would it be to get it down to 160-180T MTOW or lower?
788 Length would be NMA-L with 4,800NM range with something like a 50M as the NMA-S at 5,500NM?
Nothing else to discuss.


Current 787-8 has an MTOW of 250T. ... 250T to 180T is a 28% reduction, 250T to 180T is a 36% reduction.
Even a 767-200 has an MTOW of 158T, but it's range falls very short of what your are describing..
I suspect everything about a 5.5k nm 787 gen2 redeaux would be heavy. Real challenge is cost. 787 is a premium baseline.


Try 228T for an 788.

The 767-300 at 158T was good for 3,900 NM - that with a new Wing and Modern Engines could easily be good for 5,500NM

The 300ER at 187T was good for about 6,000NM. - New Wing and new engines should get that range and be a lot lighter. Or a 50M long 787 for similar capacity.

The 767-200 was 143T for 3,900 NM.

Take your pick.


You make a case... and yet Boeing hasn't been able to make a case for a regional widebody in the more than 10 years since shutting down the proposed 787-3. They can't come up with a compelling design with sustainable volume at reasonable cost. Maybe they can? But I think they've lost their nerve.... hence Paper Airplane Exercises... or at best... floating a re-engine of a 40 year old design... hardly exiting..
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william
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:42 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
morrisond wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

Current 787-8 has an MTOW of 250T. ... 250T to 180T is a 28% reduction, 250T to 180T is a 36% reduction.
Even a 767-200 has an MTOW of 158T, but it's range falls very short of what your are describing..
I suspect everything about a 5.5k nm 787 gen2 redeaux would be heavy. Real challenge is cost. 787 is a premium baseline.


Try 228T for an 788.

The 767-300 at 158T was good for 3,900 NM - that with a new Wing and Modern Engines could easily be good for 5,500NM

The 300ER at 187T was good for about 6,000NM. - New Wing and new engines should get that range and be a lot lighter. Or a 50M long 787 for similar capacity.

The 767-200 was 143T for 3,900 NM.

Take your pick.


You make a case... and yet Boeing hasn't been able to make a case for a regional widebody in the more than 10 years since shutting down the proposed 787-3. They can't come up with a compelling design with sustainable volume at reasonable cost. Maybe they can? But I think they've lost their nerve.... hence Paper Airplane Exercises... or at best... floating a re-engine of a 40 year old design... hardly exiting..


Its not about being "exciting", its about making money.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:15 pm

I think we all want to see the beautiful 787 available in three sizes with three sets of wings and three sets of engines (minimum). I think this is what we all associate with the Y1/Y2/Y3 plan. I know I am guilty of thinking this should be "easy" due to economies of scale. After all, Toyota has its Toyota New Global Architecture (TNGA) and the BMW Group has the Cluster Architecture (CLAR) platform. Why can't an airframer do this? The same Wurst, three sizes.

Y3 = 787ceo/787 NG = Size Large = 9 AB
Y2 = A321/XLR/A322 competitor = Medium Size = 6 AB
Y1 = E2/A220/A320 competitor = Small Size = 5 AB

YX = Special Line = Freighters, 777-8F, Y3+ double-decker twin VLA, military applications, etc.

Why can't you just go to the 787 CRFP barrel maker, like a copy machine, and input, shrink by 25% for Y2 and 50% for Y1? Why not that easy? Then bolt on 3D printed wingbox Y2 or Y1 and CRFP wings Y2 and Y1? Finally add your GE/RR/PW GTF engine options as negotiated?

The problem is that all of this has to make money. If competition doesn't let you recoup costs and make a profit for shareholders, it's all DOA. I think many of us wish it could just be about the technical exercise of maximizing efficiencies from some sort of clean slate. But, it's not about that. It's about making money.
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Devilfish
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:04 pm

2175301 wrote:
I would expect that both Boeing and Airbus regularly have people looking at existing aircraft and asking questions about what could be done with new wings and new engines, or other modifications.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
But I think they've lost their nerve.... hence Paper Airplane Exercises... or at best... floating a re-engine of a 40 year old design... hardly exiting..

This idea has been around forever and looks exciting..... :hyper:

Image
https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/im ... 1&qlt=85,0


But there seems to be a lot of practical and psychological hurdles for it to be the best new mousetrap ever..... :talktothehand:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1440873&hilit=tube+%26amp%3B+wing+design
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Sokes
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:19 pm

I believe the NMA wasn't done as there was no engine available. Moreover engine makers are still busy getting existing engines reliable. Once engine makers can commit to a new engine Boeing will make the NMA.

The E195-E2 has 61,5 t MTOW and a 35 m wing. The A321 has the same wingspan. It's not a good wing for it's weight.
The B757-200 has 116 t MTOW with 38 m wing.
The A321 is 44,5 m long, the B757-200 is 47,3 m and the B757-300 is 54,4m long.

Just like with B787 the first 500 pieces would have to be sold at a loss. I don't see why such a plane shouldn't be able to compete with the A321 afterwards. Capital cost would be higher, operating cost lower.
The B777X is flying. What are engineers supposed to do?
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:58 pm

Devilfish wrote:
But there seems to be a lot of practical and psychological hurdles for it to be the best new mousetrap ever..... :talktothehand:


Me and half the passengers would puke on that think every time it banked out of DC area airports. :crazy: Passengers would fight for the middle seat.
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strfyr51
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Re: Reuters: Boeing consiering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:57 pm

Polot wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

But, I don't get why they want to release a 757-like plane to compete with the A321.
Wouldn't it be much easer to create a 737-replacement and lengthen it just like Airbus did?


Yeah, that worked so well with the Max...

Worked out great for Airbus, and the Max’s issues are not because of lengthening the plane.


The Max is a “737-replacement”. It is an updated 737. There is a difference between the two.

In reality?? The 757 fuselage planform should replace the 737. The replacement for the 767 should have a LOT of 787 DNA. to make the airplane a stepping stone to the 787 and the 777X. Boeing should build airplanes in a hierarchy so that pilots and mechanics can see similarities between airplanes. Something that Airbus has tried to do for years now.
 
mrkerr7474
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:44 pm

Ufsatp wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Great idea from Boeing, the 737MAX, A330NEO and 777-X being tremendous succes, lets also revamp 757.


Except that Boeing never said they were going to revamp the 757.


Also except the A330NEO has nothing to do with Boeing..
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 12:02 am

Revelation wrote:
... a modified 767-X is still in play, but no time soon IMO.

With apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but isn't Boeing facing a deadline for new 767s to meet new emissions standards essentially requiring new engines anyway?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 2:07 am

NameOmitted wrote:
Revelation wrote:
... a modified 767-X is still in play, but no time soon IMO.

With apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but isn't Boeing facing a deadline for new 767s to meet new emissions standards essentially requiring new engines anyway?

The Reuters article ( https://www.reuters.com/article/aircraf ... SL5N2CF5PN ) says:

Since Boeing delivered its final passenger 767 in 2014, the model has enjoyed a rebirth as a cargo workhorse and needs modifying to meet 2028 emissions standards.

One insider said the 767 study focused on the plane’s role as a freighter, while others saw a possible passenger role.

Seems other people have quoted this as 2024 but Google searches suggest the concern is ICAO CO2 standards due to take effect in 2028.

So if Boeing will need to do something by 2028 to keep selling 767F. I'm pretty sure military hardware is exempt, it usually is.

It shouldn't be too hard to slap the GEnX onto the 767 by 2028 if that is worth doing.

Knowing Boeing, they will try to find a way to get the military to pay for it first.
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CX747
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 2:28 am

As the CEO said, no new aircraft right now. Incremental product increases to the 767 make a ton of sense. The platform is around for the long run and is tied to the USAF, FEDEX, UPS and Amazon. Four blue chip "carriers" to say the least. To not keep that airframe relevant is a mistake. The production line is very well supported and extremely efficient. Additionally, it OWNS the freighter market and the tanker market.

There is no competition right now to the 767 and with the current market, no new Airbus product is coming to face it. Quick, snark comments about the tanker program miss the mark. The KC-46 is a long term gold mine. The KC-46 is going to be flying for the USAF and being maintained possibly long after the youngest person reading this post is dead from old age.

We won't be seeing a new 757 "like" aircraft any time soon as there are no airlines looking to buy or discuss buying anything right now. We need to now question the orders of the past several years for the new reality.

Here are two questions, one of which I believe is the actual reality of the situation.

1: Is JetBlue, going to launch trans-Atlantic service with A321 aircraft in 2021?

2: What will Airbus do with the A321 production slots that were reserved by the now defunct JetBlue?
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CX747
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 2:36 am

Revelation wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
Revelation wrote:
... a modified 767-X is still in play, but no time soon IMO.

With apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but isn't Boeing facing a deadline for new 767s to meet new emissions standards essentially requiring new engines anyway?

The Reuters article ( https://www.reuters.com/article/aircraf ... SL5N2CF5PN ) says:

Since Boeing delivered its final passenger 767 in 2014, the model has enjoyed a rebirth as a cargo workhorse and needs modifying to meet 2028 emissions standards.

One insider said the 767 study focused on the plane’s role as a freighter, while others saw a possible passenger role.

Seems other people have quoted this as 2024 but Google searches suggest the concern is ICAO CO2 standards due to take effect in 2028.

So if Boeing will need to do something by 2028 to keep selling 767F. I'm pretty sure military hardware is exempt, it usually is.

It shouldn't be too hard to slap the GEnX onto the 767 by 2028 if that is worth doing.

Knowing Boeing, they will try to find a way to get the military to pay for it first.



Hey USAF, FEDEX, UPS and possibly Amazon. You know the perfect sized pickup truck you all love called the 767? We have a new engine for it. You "buy" in and you are looking at a program supported by the USG and 3 of the most stable blue chip companies in the world. Fantastic product, cheap life cycle costs because of stable operators needing parts & service. You could even have a "group" discount price for all 4 going in together on the project.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 2:48 am

NameOmitted wrote:
With apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but isn't Boeing facing a deadline for new 767s to meet new emissions standards essentially requiring new engines anyway?


I've yet been able to find anything directly related to the 767 being at risk from this standard, but even if it is, it may be possible for GE to offer another emissions PiP to meet it (I am not sure PW will bother since the KC-46A is exempt). GE has done emissions PiPs for the CF6-series currently used on 767s in the past.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 6:03 am

morrisond wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
morrisond wrote:
How light could an 787 Derived design be with lighter Wingbox/Wing/Gear/ Engines smaller tail - Optimized for say 5,500nm range and with folding tips to fit into 767 gates like Revelation is suggesting?
From our discussion on NMA/NSA - the A320 tube is only about 3-4% of the MTOW whole plane. So the Big 9W Fuselage may not be that much of a penalty.
How hard would it be to get it down to 160-180T MTOW or lower?
788 Length would be NMA-L with 4,800NM range with something like a 50M as the NMA-S at 5,500NM?
Nothing else to discuss.


Current 787-8 has an MTOW of 250T. ... 250T to 180T is a 28% reduction, 250T to 180T is a 36% reduction.
Even a 767-200 has an MTOW of 158T, but it's range falls very short of what your are describing..
I suspect everything about a 5.5k nm 787 gen2 redeaux would be heavy. Real challenge is cost. 787 is a premium baseline.


Try 228T for an 788.

The 767-300 at 158T was good for 3,900 NM - that with a new Wing and Modern Engines could easily be good for 5,500NM

The 300ER at 187T was good for about 6,000NM. - New Wing and new engines should get that range and be a lot lighter. Or a 50M long 787 for similar capacity.

The 767-200 was 143T for 3,900 NM.

Take your pick.


I'd pick the 767-200 (non-ER) re-winged and re-engined with overwing exits. Should be good for at least 5500nm with 275 pax.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 6:11 am

CX747 wrote:
1: Is JetBlue, going to launch trans-Atlantic service with A321 aircraft in 2021?

2: What will Airbus do with the A321 production slots that were reserved by the now defunct JetBlue?

1: yes
2: defunct?
 
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MrBren
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 8:01 am

What's next, a PlusXMaxER?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 8:29 am

The simple 764F with the GEnX engines seems relatively easy and it has a lot of positives for it. The current freighter market outside of old frames like A306F and MD-11 is limited to these choices with some notes alongside. I'm just looking at Boeing models, there are new A330F's and also P2F's of A320's & A330's but I am not familiar with them.

757 P2F conversions - most good candidates have been converted, balance too old /high cycle. - basically SOLD OUT
767 P2F conversions - still being converted but the best candidates have been. CV crisis is getting frames released for possible conversion
However, in not many years these conversions will slow down. - LAST CALL
767F - Good business, the lines is running decently. However, CORSIA will come into play 8 years out. - TIME to PLAN
777W P2F conversions - coming soon with slightly light package densities. Huge volume craft, will do well. - Promising but not by Boeing.
777F - Excellent freighter, will continue to sell well, but supply is close to demand at this capability. Freight for long distances. - GOING STRONG
744 P2F - no conversions in a decade - able to buy already converted frames from the desert. - LAST CALL
748F - Great freighter, but the line is closing. - LAST RIGHTS

The current KC-46 is a FAA certified model (before becoming the tanker) 767-2C. It basically has the 787 cockpit with a lot more modern stuff thru out. Start with that model with the 764 wings and gear, the GEnX-2B engines, raising thrust from 62 to 66.5, gaining the higher gear with a 19 ton add to MTOW. Adjust the length to be optimum as a tanker (future RFP's) which would be between the current 165 ft 6 to the 300F length of 180'-3". The larger engines require more tail or a longer arm. Anyway, basically make a 767-3C X tanker or freighter. Certify that model at that size. A stout freighter with 12 tons more payload than the 300F. - TARGETS the retiring MD-11's and B744F and conversions. - Gives the UPS and FedEX a high payload freighter.

Then do a 764F length craft for the 2nd freighter variant. Although primarily positioned as a freighter, the 764 is an excellent size but its range is short and it never took off being offered as such. The 764X would also be a very good E-4B replacement and as it came from the -2C would take far less certification and has air refueling capability. - GREAT PACKAGE FREIGHTER by volume almost a 777F, but a lot less cost and it fits the current hub stations.

The big bonus is in around 5 year the Air Force will go for the 2nd batch of freighters, if Boeing gets their ass in gear and finally get the KC-46 to be successfully in service, the Air Force would really like this larger capacity tanker, imagine 15 more tons of fuel to deliver or to stay on station with.

Personally, this seems to be a far better program than the 778. But it will only generate 300 or so sales in total. Well, freighters may be an easier sale than passenger widebodies.



https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/ca ... reighters/
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 8:51 am

Devilfish wrote:
This idea has been around forever and looks exciting.....

Image


.....until you realize that the likelihood of this design meeting current evacuation standards for pax, is slim to none.

Though, that image juxtaposed to your avatar just enlightened me as to how much of this thing resembles a manta ray. Weird, but cool!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
VSMUT
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 8:57 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Why can't you just go to the 787 CRFP barrel maker, like a copy machine, and input, shrink by 25% for Y2 and 50% for Y1? Why not that easy? Then bolt on 3D printed wingbox Y2 or Y1 and CRFP wings Y2 and Y1? Finally add your GE/RR/PW GTF engine options as negotiated?


You can't just scale things in aviation.

A wing works by moving through air molecules, molecules that do not change in size. What works for a 787 will not be optimal for a smaller aircraft.

Materials don't scale very well either. Aircraft, from a Q400 to a 777, are built from material of pretty much the same gauge. If you just scaled down a 787 wing, you would get a wing made from paper-thin material. If you don't scale down the gauge of the material, the parts won't fit together.

Finally there is the issue that the 787 is optimised for long range cruise. It adds a lot of weight in areas that provide fuel savings in cruise, because a 787 only has to drag all that weight up to cruising level twice a day. A narrowbody needs to climb over 12 times a day, so weight savings will be much more relevant, while cruise economy means less. Just scaling it down will not provide this.

These principles apply to almost every aspect of an aircraft. Look at the fuselage barrels, the windows alone would be a big challenge.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 8:59 am

Stitch wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
With apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but isn't Boeing facing a deadline for new 767s to meet new emissions standards essentially requiring new engines anyway?


I've yet been able to find anything directly related to the 767 being at risk from this standard, but even if it is, it may be possible for GE to offer another emissions PiP to meet it (I am not sure PW will bother since the KC-46A is exempt). GE has done emissions PiPs for the CF6-series currently used on 767s in the past.


I too have searched extensively, yes CORSIA goes into effect in 2028, yes CORSIA identifies CO2 reductions of like 20% from current (this is the first year data was being collected - I hope we don't have to reduce emissions from this airplane free year <yes sarcasm>) and the text identifies that older generation engines cannot be sold on a new plane after that date. But I have not found any reference any engine model that is or is not meeting CORSIA. Possibly GE would like to close the CF6 line down anyway. Only around 100 in backlog for the 763F, some for the A330 ceo and others but the end is approaching.'

Covid may also be changing IATA's appetite for CORSIA, finances may dictate a delay in implementation.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 1:31 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Well. throwing ideas against the wall to see what sticks is no solution. Try a little this, try a little that? Quit wasting time and money on old, rehashed ideas.

I want drastic measures to ensure the long term viability of the industry in the United States.

1. Congress forms a bipartisan panel to guide the process and establish a temporary supervisory board.
2. Under the Defense Production Act, the U.S. government seizes control of the company and puts it into receivership.
3. Current and former executives arrested for negligence and manslaughter. Many mid-level managers fired. Take out the trash and cut the management level fat. Add support to the line-level workers, unions, apprenticeship programs.
4. HQ moved from Chicago back to Seattle.
5. Two companies created: one commercial aviation company and one defense/space company.
6. Temporary supervisory board appoints respective CEOs of the two companies.
7. The commercial aviation company is rebooted to focus on three Y1/Y2/Y3 products: Y1 is NSA or FSA, competing with E2/A220/A320; Y2 is NMA, competing with A321/XLR/A322; Y3 is essentially the 787NG, competing with the A350. Common cockpit from bottom to top. Freighter models would be based on the 777-8XF and the 787NG. If the market needs a VLA, it could be a double-decker twin based on Y3/77X.
8. The U.S. federal government/taxpayer remains a significant shareholder until losses have been recovered.


You should pitch this to Netflix as a series called "8 Things That Will Never Happen". ;)
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 1:39 pm

@Bricktop: one can dream though, right? Point is, they are good ideas for the long-term. The powers that be are currently thinking short-term.
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morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 2:07 pm

744SPX wrote:
morrisond wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

Current 787-8 has an MTOW of 250T. ... 250T to 180T is a 28% reduction, 250T to 180T is a 36% reduction.
Even a 767-200 has an MTOW of 158T, but it's range falls very short of what your are describing..
I suspect everything about a 5.5k nm 787 gen2 redeaux would be heavy. Real challenge is cost. 787 is a premium baseline.


Try 228T for an 788.

The 767-300 at 158T was good for 3,900 NM - that with a new Wing and Modern Engines could easily be good for 5,500NM

The 300ER at 187T was good for about 6,000NM. - New Wing and new engines should get that range and be a lot lighter. Or a 50M long 787 for similar capacity.

The 767-200 was 143T for 3,900 NM.

Take your pick.


I'd pick the 767-200 (non-ER) re-winged and re-engined with overwing exits. Should be good for at least 5500nm with 275 pax.


Yes - that is the interesting one. Especially if their Asian customers want it for the larger below floor Area to take existing containers - then no point in doing a new cross section. Asian clients probably more likely to take new frames going forward.

I assume 3,900NM was with 1982 Engines. Modern engines are how much more efficient? A 40 year newer Wing? 30-40% improvement doesn't seem impossible.

Lighter avionics/lighter interior - lighter wing, maybe lower MTOW - sculpted sidewalls.

It could be interesting.

What is the floor area of an 762 vs A321?
Last edited by morrisond on Fri May 01, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 2:28 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
.....until you realize that the likelihood of this design meeting current evacuation standards for pax, is slim to none.

Hence this line.....
Devilfish wrote:
But there seems to be a lot of practical and psychological hurdles for it to be the best new mousetrap ever.....


LAX772LR wrote:
Though, that image juxtaposed to your avatar just enlightened me as to how much of this thing resembles a manta ray. Weird, but cool!

:checkmark: Bingo! The BWB design was the inspiration for my user name and avatar. Speaks of biomimicry. :smile:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
CX747
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 2:34 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
CX747 wrote:
1: Is JetBlue, going to launch trans-Atlantic service with A321 aircraft in 2021?

2: What will Airbus do with the A321 production slots that were reserved by the now defunct JetBlue?

1: yes
2: defunct?


That goes back to the original question of what is your current view on reality. You believe JetBlue is going to start trans-Atlantic service with brand new shiny birds.... The company just asked DOT for permission to STOP domestic service in the US to 16 major cities. They can't find work or make money with their existing fleet to support their costs. That is reality.

We need to recage our viewpoint on what is truly going on within aviation overall. In this instance, JetBlue is fighting for its very life and could indeed go out of business. The idea of flying brand new/shiny A321s to Europe is now a fantasy.

This is where I feel the 767 is well placed. 100+ orders in the backlog from the USAF and FEDEX/UPS taking deliveries. Incremental improvements to the platform keep those three very conservative and well run organizations coming back for more of a proven workhorse.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 4:17 pm

I still think a NMA/MOM is the plane the airlines will need after this: small, efficient, with long legs to do TATL and TPAC routes. The XLR is just barely there and the A330neo/B787 is just too much. The easy solution is a A322, stretched, new wing, larger GTF engines, giving the A321 XLR the extra long legs it needs. Development costs would be low, demand would be high. Airbus could slot it into one of its "less busy" A320/321 lines, likely in Alabama.
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Jetty
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 4:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
i kinda like the name '757+'

I would prefer 757MAX to remain consistent.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 4:44 pm

Jetty wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
i kinda like the name '757+'

I would prefer 757MAX to remain consistent.


Consistent with what? A name associated with nothing good?
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