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Devilfish
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 4:46 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
I still think a NMA/MOM is the plane the airlines will need after this: small, efficient, with long legs to do TATL and TPAC routes. The XLR is just barely there and the A330neo/B787 is just too much.

TATL maybe. Giving the MoM TPAC range defeats its purpose...and fares will shoot up once you deploy it there. :house:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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ssteve
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 5:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
[Consistent with what? A name associated with nothing good?


Seriously. At this point you could even expect that minor revisions to the Max will result in a product called something else.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 5:52 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
The current KC-46 is a FAA certified model (before becoming the tanker) 767-2C. It basically has the 787 cockpit with a lot more modern stuff thru out.

The military product is a lot different than the commercial one.

Neither has the 787 cockpit, they have 787 display technology mated to the 767 systems.

The commercial product has a few new nav modes added in that the stock 767 did not have, but that's to be expected given how old the stock 767 is.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Stitch
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 6:26 pm

morrisond wrote:
What is the floor area of an 762 vs A321?


Looks to be around:

B767-200: 170.7 sq meters

A321-200: 136 sq meters
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 6:56 pm

What if...and hear me out...they created a clean sheet airplane based upon the 757 which wasn't actually a 757 but they called it a 757 to be a "descendant/spiritual successor" of the original? That way, you wouldn't need the original tooling everyone says makes the idea a non-starter. Nobody outside this site and the avgeek community is going to be able to tell the difference.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 7:06 pm

Nice analysis. I see UPS and FedEx as 767X launch customers to serve as MD-11 replacements. UPS loves the 767, it really fits well into our operation. Anything larger introduces the wingspan concerns so the best idea is to lengthen in with new engines, sounds like a smart move by Boeing to do this soon.

Also don't forget about the 737P2F options. I think we will see more 738s becoming freighters. Depending on 757P2F availability, 738s sound like a viable option for FedEx particularly. The 738 could probably accomplish 50%-75% of 757 parcel routes.
JayinKitsap wrote:
The simple 764F with the GEnX engines seems relatively easy and it has a lot of positives for it. The current freighter market outside of old frames like A306F and MD-11 is limited to these choices with some notes alongside. I'm just looking at Boeing models, there are new A330F's and also P2F's of A320's & A330's but I am not familiar with them.

757 P2F conversions - most good candidates have been converted, balance too old /high cycle. - basically SOLD OUT
767 P2F conversions - still being converted but the best candidates have been. CV crisis is getting frames released for possible conversion
However, in not many years these conversions will slow down. - LAST CALL
767F - Good business, the lines is running decently. However, CORSIA will come into play 8 years out. - TIME to PLAN
777W P2F conversions - coming soon with slightly light package densities. Huge volume craft, will do well. - Promising but not by Boeing.
777F - Excellent freighter, will continue to sell well, but supply is close to demand at this capability. Freight for long distances. - GOING STRONG
744 P2F - no conversions in a decade - able to buy already converted frames from the desert. - LAST CALL
748F - Great freighter, but the line is closing. - LAST RIGHTS

The current KC-46 is a FAA certified model (before becoming the tanker) 767-2C. It basically has the 787 cockpit with a lot more modern stuff thru out. Start with that model with the 764 wings and gear, the GEnX-2B engines, raising thrust from 62 to 66.5, gaining the higher gear with a 19 ton add to MTOW. Adjust the length to be optimum as a tanker (future RFP's) which would be between the current 165 ft 6 to the 300F length of 180'-3". The larger engines require more tail or a longer arm. Anyway, basically make a 767-3C X tanker or freighter. Certify that model at that size. A stout freighter with 12 tons more payload than the 300F. - TARGETS the retiring MD-11's and B744F and conversions. - Gives the UPS and FedEX a high payload freighter.

Then do a 764F length craft for the 2nd freighter variant. Although primarily positioned as a freighter, the 764 is an excellent size but its range is short and it never took off being offered as such. The 764X would also be a very good E-4B replacement and as it came from the -2C would take far less certification and has air refueling capability. - GREAT PACKAGE FREIGHTER by volume almost a 777F, but a lot less cost and it fits the current hub stations.

The big bonus is in around 5 year the Air Force will go for the 2nd batch of freighters, if Boeing gets their ass in gear and finally get the KC-46 to be successfully in service, the Air Force would really like this larger capacity tanker, imagine 15 more tons of fuel to deliver or to stay on station with.

Personally, this seems to be a far better program than the 778. But it will only generate 300 or so sales in total. Well, freighters may be an easier sale than passenger widebodies.



https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/ca ... reighters/
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 7:20 pm

Jetty wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
i kinda like the name '757+'

I would prefer 757MAX to remain consistent.

...consistent with what, the most tarnished branding in modern aviation?

Probably as good a time as any to move away from that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
strfyr51
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 7:43 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
Revelation wrote:
... a modified 767-X is still in play, but no time soon IMO.

With apologies if this has been answered elsewhere, but isn't Boeing facing a deadline for new 767s to meet new emissions standards essentially requiring new engines anyway?

the new KC-46 is equipped with the PW-4060 so I would doubt any brand new engine. the combustor and the fuel dispersion (Nozzles) make up the majority of any emissions as the finer the spray pattern the cleaner burning the exhaust will be. If any of you have seen airplanes on takeoff lately you may notice that you see very little or no smoke trail, And that's because the fuel nozzles have gotten so much better. And they're changed a little more often that in previous times.
Instead of engine removal the fuel nozzles are either periodically washed with Gas path cleaners or they're replaced.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 7:46 pm

Moving away from the MAX moniker would be the most sensible thing Boeing has done in about 5yrs

uote="LAX772LR"]
Jetty wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
i kinda like the name '757+'

I would prefer 757MAX to remain consistent.

...consistent with what, the most tarnished branding in modern aviation?

Probably as good a time as any to move away from that.[/quote]
 
Jetport
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 7:48 pm

Why did Boeing discontinue all 3 767 passenger versions in the first place? Was it really easier to fill the next 20-40 seats profitably 20-30 years ago as you went up in size from 767-200 to 767-300 to 767-400/A330-200 to A330-300, and not now? The popularity of the 767-300 long after it was discontinued suggests that filling the A330-200/300 profitably has not been as easy as many airlines thought it would be.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 7:54 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
i kinda like the name '757+'

I would prefer 757MAX to remain consistent.

...consistent with what, the most tarnished branding in modern aviation?

Probably as good a time as any to move away from that.

and? do what exactly? It's not like Airbus has been putting in much if any effort to build world class freighters. so Boeing is getting the lion's share of freighter business.
Airbus should have been on this years ago as they probably know what they're doing. Why they're not offering freighters for every model they build? Beats me!
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 8:54 pm

CX747 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
CX747 wrote:
1: Is JetBlue, going to launch trans-Atlantic service with A321 aircraft in 2021?

2: What will Airbus do with the A321 production slots that were reserved by the now defunct JetBlue?

1: yes
2: defunct?


That goes back to the original question of what is your current view on reality. You believe JetBlue is going to start trans-Atlantic service with brand new shiny birds.... The company just asked DOT for permission to STOP domestic service in the US to 16 major cities. They can't find work or make money with their existing fleet to support their costs. That is reality.

We need to recage our viewpoint on what is truly going on within aviation overall. In this instance, JetBlue is fighting for its very life and could indeed go out of business. The idea of flying brand new/shiny A321s to Europe is now a fantasy.

This is where I feel the 767 is well placed. 100+ orders in the backlog from the USAF and FEDEX/UPS taking deliveries. Incremental improvements to the platform keep those three very conservative and well run organizations coming back for more of a proven workhorse.


Plans for flying a typically high revenue route in 12-18 months has very little to do with temporarily suspending service in a time where nobody is flying. Delta and others are also asking for exemptions and stopping service to many places. Passenger numbers are increasing right now and we haven’t even peaked with the virus in some places. B6 will survive. And will likely still fly to Europe in 2021. If a bad second wave hits and everything gets shut down again, I could maybe see it push to 2022. But if I were a betting man I’d bet 2021 happens.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 10:14 pm

Jetport wrote:
Why did Boeing discontinue all 3 767 passenger versions in the first place?


The only reason Boeing stopped building passenger 767s was because airlines stopped buying them. It’s over eight years since an airline purchased a 767 for passengers and even longer since any were purchased that weren’t compensation for late 787 deliveries.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 10:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Why did Boeing discontinue all 3 767 passenger versions in the first place?


The only reason Boeing stopped building passenger 767s was because airlines stopped buying them. It’s over eight years since an airline purchased a 767 for passengers and even longer since any were purchased that weren’t compensation for late 787 deliveries.


:checkmark: LATAM springs to mind
 
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Stitch
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 01, 2020 10:55 pm

Jetport wrote:
Why did Boeing discontinue all 3 767 passenger versions in the first place?


As scbrimi noted, customer demand for the type as a passenger carrier dried up. Japan Airlines and All Nippon took a bunch to cover their cancelled 787-3 orders and a handful of other carriers (Azerbaijan, LATAM, MIAT, Air Astana) took them as compensation for their delayed 787-8 orders.


Jetport wrote:
Was it really easier to fill the next 20-40 seats profitably 20-30 years ago as you went up in size from 767-200 to 767-300 to 767-400/A330-200 to A330-300, and not now?


It is more that within a family, the largest models tend to find the most favor with operators because the operating and trip costs are only slightly higher, while the revenue opportunities are often fairly higher. So you only need to sell a small percentage of those extra seats to cover those costs and the remainder sold are effectively pure revenue.

So 767-200 operators moved to the 767-300 and A330-200 operators moved to the A330-300 (especially once the A330-300HGW allowed it to perform missions formally only possible with the A330-200).


Jetport wrote:
The popularity of the 767-300 long after it was discontinued suggests that filling the A330-200/300 profitably has not been as easy as many airlines thought it would be.


It is much more a factor of "sunk costs" - airlines that currently operate the 767 have effectively fully amortized them over time so they're "paid for" so to speak and they can still effectively do the role they are used on at a profit. Moving to an A330 might generate more revenue (if demand is there), but the costs of adding them (financing, training, maintenance, insurance, etc.) can be such that you would need to operate them for an extended period (and at high load average load factors) to recover that money. So might as well keep flying the 767s as long as they remain profitable.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 12:01 am

You know given that the 767 Nose section has a lot of commonality with 777 a 767X doesn't seem so crazy. Port over the full cockpit and more Modern systems from 777x ( I think the 764 has a lot of these already), 777X based wing with folding tips to fit in existing 767 gates, new engines, etc..

Basically do what Boeing did to the 777W to become the 777x to the 767 - which kind of makes sense as the 777 was basically a larger 767.

Maybe start with a 767-250ish (as was contemplated for KC-46) size 5,500 NM about 150T's 300ish Y seats 1 class and then a larger model that could actually do TATL, maybe 160T.

It could be quite efficient. Just bored and dreaming. It does not require any new tech - and they have the wing factory with the capacity.

They would probably have to further dumb down/automate the cockpit to meet potential new certification rules but if they start with 777X cockpit they should be able to back port improvements to 777x/787 and have cockpit/procedure commonality.

The Asian market would love it with it's cargo capacity.

Truly middle of the market.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 12:49 am

And of course I forgot the most important thing - Sculpted Sidewalls/stringers from 777X to give 4" more interior width and allow 8W in Y with seats used in 10W 777W (not the wider seats that will be used in 777X).

There is a 45" difference in Cabin width from 767 to 777W - take 2 seats out of 777W = about 37-38" then another 4" for Sculpted Ribs and you might only have to make the aisles about 2" narrower.

It is shorter range so not as big an issue.
 
jagraham
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 1:21 am

Moose135 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
Boeing is still selling fighter jets and not at loss. The USAF has bought the new and improved F-15 EX. Boeing's military side will give it the ability to weather the the myriad of mistakes on the commercial side. If What AB says is true about their financial position, Boeing could use the time to catch up to the A321 Frankensteins.

How much are they making on the KC-46 contract?


You have to separate what Boeing Commercial Aircraft is making supplying green 767-2C airframes to Boeing Defense, from what Boeing Defense is making (losing for now, although the main contractural issues are settled and the cost divisions determined) converting those 767-2C airframes into KC-46 tankers.
 
US319
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 8:09 am

[twoid][/twoid]
Jetport wrote:
Why did Boeing discontinue all 3 767 passenger versions in the first place? Was it really easier to fill the next 20-40 seats profitably 20-30 years ago as you went up in size from 767-200 to 767-300 to 767-400/A330-200 to A330-300, and not now? The popularity of the 767-300 long after it was discontinued suggests that filling the A330-200/300 profitably has not been as easy as many airlines thought it would be.


Why did Boeing discontinue the 767 passenger version? The A330 is the main reason.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 8:43 am

jagraham wrote:
Moose135 wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
Boeing is still selling fighter jets and not at loss. The USAF has bought the new and improved F-15 EX. Boeing's military side will give it the ability to weather the the myriad of mistakes on the commercial side. If What AB says is true about their financial position, Boeing could use the time to catch up to the A321 Frankensteins.

How much are they making on the KC-46 contract?


You have to separate what Boeing Commercial Aircraft is making supplying green 767-2C airframes to Boeing Defense, from what Boeing Defense is making (losing for now, although the main contractural issues are settled and the cost divisions determined) converting those 767-2C airframes into KC-46 tankers.


I posted in the KC-46 thread the various mods on that contract. Boeing is up to about $313M per plane on the contract for the 67 delivered, however that includes a bunch of program costs and the EMD. The unit price of lot 5 including some spares and similar comes out to $173 Million. It would take special genius to lose money at $ 173M per 767, even with all the equipment added.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 9:49 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
The unit price of lot 5 including some spares and similar comes out to $173 Million. It would take special genius to lose money at $ 173M per 767, even with all the equipment added.


I don't think we should underestimate Boeing's abilities. :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 12:58 pm

morrisond wrote:
You know given that the 767 Nose section has a lot of commonality with 777 a 767X doesn't seem so crazy. Port over the full cockpit and more Modern systems from 777x ( I think the 764 has a lot of these already), 777X based wing with folding tips to fit in existing 767 gates, new engines, etc..

Basically do what Boeing did to the 777W to become the 777x to the 767 - which kind of makes sense as the 777 was basically a larger 767.

Maybe start with a 767-250ish (as was contemplated for KC-46) size 5,500 NM about 150T's 300ish Y seats 1 class and then a larger model that could actually do TATL, maybe 160T.

It could be quite efficient. Just bored and dreaming. It does not require any new tech - and they have the wing factory with the capacity.

They would probably have to further dumb down/automate the cockpit to meet potential new certification rules but if they start with 777X cockpit they should be able to back port improvements to 777x/787 and have cockpit/procedure commonality.

The Asian market would love it with it's cargo capacity.

Truly middle of the market.



Continuing my discussion with myself - this isolation may really getting to me.

If they can make it 8W with 777W comfort I really think that may change the calculus on the 767 Cross section.

The big advantage of an 767X is very low Capital costs.

They already have the wing factory which is onsite so no transport costs and if they only use it for 777x that affects the profitability of 777X program and/or a big write off. They also already have the 767 Assembly line which I presume could be sped up. They also already have the tools to build the nose and Cross section. They would need new tooling to build a new tail if needed. But I'm sure a partner could do that - however they probably do have the ability to do that themselves and keep more in house which seems to be the trend.

The 777 line can build 77W and 777X interchangeably so I don't see why they couldn't do the same thing on the 767 line with two different wings/wingboxes.

You could also see further weight savings on 767 with things like Composite 777 style Floor beams and an 777/787 interior.

They would have to talk someone into a new engine - but maybe a Pratt/CFM combo - Pratt geared fan on an LEAP core for 45-50K of thrust - but that cost would be born by the engine manufacturers.

Scale 777x Nacelle/Pylon work for the new engine.

Yes - a lot of work - but they will have a lot of engineers sitting around not doing much and they just did the same thing with the 77W to 777X so really breaking no new ground.

But in terms of Capital cost which can be billions - not so much.

How much of the 777x $8-10 Billion cost was the new wing factory and original research? A 777X mini AKA 767X could be significantly less than that cost.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 1:34 pm

According to this article they spent $1B on the 777X Wing factory - 25 Football fields in size - it has 3 120' long Autoclaves.

That is a serious investment - and seems real overkill if they are only going to build a few 777X per month.

Neat Video in here https://www.geekwire.com/2016/boeing-op ... y-everett/

Also lots of great information on production automation in here https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -big-jobs/

Plus this https://www.boeing.com/777x/reveal/stat ... tes-parts/
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 2:21 pm

planecane wrote:
There will be a vaccine in 2 years max.

How do you know?

In 1984 a vaccine against HIV was also expected within 2 years. But after 36 years it still isn't there.

https://www.healthline.com/health/hiv-a ... ose-are-we
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 2:22 pm

morrisond wrote:
Continuing my discussion with myself - this isolation may really getting to me.


I'm enjoying it, even if I've nothing to add.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 2:28 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Continuing my discussion with myself - this isolation may really getting to me.


I'm enjoying it, even if I've nothing to add.


Thanks! And if they want to keep it even simpler PIP the 748 Engines and just use them. The 767X could be delivered a lot sooner than a clean sheet NMA - possibly by 2025/2026 especially if they don't have to wait for a new engine.
 
planecane
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 2:36 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
planecane wrote:
There will be a vaccine in 2 years max.

How do you know?

In 1984 a vaccine against HIV was also expected within 2 years. But after 36 years it still isn't there.

https://www.healthline.com/health/hiv-a ... ose-are-we


Because HIV is a completely different type of virus. This isn't really the place to have a detailed discussion about vaccine science but it is apples to oranges, in large part because HIV attacks the immune system. The PREP drugs are, in a way, an HIV vaccine. They just artificially prevent infection instead of teaching the immune system to do it.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 2:55 pm

morrisond wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Continuing my discussion with myself - this isolation may really getting to me.


I'm enjoying it, even if I've nothing to add.


Thanks! And if they want to keep it even simpler PIP the 748 Engines and just use them. The 767X could be delivered a lot sooner than a clean sheet NMA - possibly by 2025/2026 especially if they don't have to wait for a new engine.

The problems for the pax 767 market are still the same: A330neo already does 8 across with comfort, handles LD3 containers, has a newer and bigger wing, has a state of the art engine, has upgraded MTOW, center tank is activated for more range, has flight crew compatibility with other Airbus wide bodies and Airbus is a motivated seller. It's a lot to ask for Boeing to spool up its pax supply chain given the competition and the current airline situation. You would need an airline to order at least 20 and no one will do that in the current climate. In the short term there will be rejected airliners and young used frames to choose from so no one will pay for new.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 3:08 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
It's not like Airbus has been putting in much if any effort to build world class freighters. so Boeing is getting the lion's share of freighter business. Airbus should have been on this years ago as they probably know what they're doing. Why they're not offering freighters for every model they build? Beats me!

They have put in the effort and it's now flying...received wisdom here that the A338 would make a good freighter is not unfounded. That they have not done the last bit of design work and pursued the supplemental type certification may be down to the cargo carriers' desires that a new replacement fit their current wingspan profile...and maybe bottom-barrel pricing for a sizeable launch order. Airbus must have more compelling reasons where to invest their money and are content to let that business go Boeing's way. It could be a matter of timing and business strategy - or indeed survival - not to mention the large number of frames lying idle due to this pandemic.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 4:33 pm

Revelation wrote:
morrisond wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:

I'm enjoying it, even if I've nothing to add.


Thanks! And if they want to keep it even simpler PIP the 748 Engines and just use them. The 767X could be delivered a lot sooner than a clean sheet NMA - possibly by 2025/2026 especially if they don't have to wait for a new engine.

The problems for the pax 767 market are still the same: A330neo already does 8 across with comfort, handles LD3 containers, has a newer and bigger wing, has a state of the art engine, has upgraded MTOW, center tank is activated for more range, has flight crew compatibility with other Airbus wide bodies and Airbus is a motivated seller. It's a lot to ask for Boeing to spool up its pax supply chain given the competition and the current airline situation. You would need an airline to order at least 20 and no one will do that in the current climate. In the short term there will be rejected airliners and young used frames to choose from so no one will pay for new.


I totally get it - but that A330 also has the structure for a MTOW of 242T

We are talking about a wing (a new 777x folding style), structure and engines optimized for something more like 150-165T which should make it significantly more efficient. Maybe 50K Max thrust engines. Wing 48M folded - 53-54M unfolded built in the new 777X Wing factory.

It would be fully flight crew compatible with 787/777X.

You would be looking at at least 2025-2026 for delivery. The Asian carriers could order a bunch - this is what they are asking for - an NMA with more Cargo Capacity in the Belly.

This would be relatively low cost for Boeing and updates the freighter as well which could be produced for some time.

Folding wings would allow use of existing gates and what they freight market is asking for.

Do I think they would sell 1,000's? No - but 500-1,000 doesn't seem unreasonable over time including freighters.

It's going to take them 10 years to do a 737 clean sheet replacement with a new cockpit philosophy. Until then they are probably stuck with derivatives.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 5:01 pm

If they did a 767 with a new wing, then I assume it is a given that it would be converted to fly by wire. Then there is the question of if the authorities would want it certified as an all new model, which is highly probable. So, that will be a more extensive scope of work than the 777x and more expensive. So I don't see that in the cards. IMO, the next all new wing will be on an all new aircraft, although a 764F with new engines seems like it has a good chance.
Last edited by DenverTed on Sat May 02, 2020 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 5:01 pm

morrisond wrote:
I totally get it - but that A330 also has the structure for a MTOW of 242T

We are talking about a wing (a new 777x folding style), structure and engines optimized for something more like 150-165T which should make it significantly more efficient. Maybe 50K Max thrust engines. Wing 48M folded - 53-54M unfolded built in the new 777X Wing factory.

It would be fully flight crew compatible with 787/777X.

You would be looking at at least 2025-2026 for delivery. The Asian carriers could order a bunch - this is what they are asking for - an NMA with more Cargo Capacity in the Belly.

This would be relatively low cost for Boeing and updates the freighter as well which could be produced for some time.

Folding wings would allow use of existing gates and what they freight market is asking for.

Do I think they would sell 1,000's? No - but 500-1,000 doesn't seem unreasonable over time including freighters.

It's going to take them 10 years to do a 737 clean sheet replacement with a new cockpit philosophy. Until then they are probably stuck with derivatives.

I get it too. I'd love to see something short of a clean sheet targeted at what is thought of as the MOM market. The issue is really when will the airlines be ready to spend again, and what will their goals be when that happens.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 5:36 pm

DenverTed wrote:
If they did a 767 with a new wing, then I assume it is a given that it would be converted to fly by wire. Then there is the question of if the authorities would want it certified as an all new model, which is highly probable. So, that will be a more extensive scope of work than the 777x and more expensive. So I don't see that in the cards. IMO, the next all new wing will be on an all new aircraft, although a 764F with new engines seems like it has a good chance.


Quite possibly a 764 with new engines as a freighter is the easiest path forward.

777X is basically a new airplane - the advantage of 767X over a clean sheet is a lot less capital investment - even if you have to certify from scratch. However if you are using the 777x Fly by wire system that may save some certification activities as it will have been proven by then.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 7:05 pm

morrisond wrote:
However Boeing does have a brand new Wing factory built for the 777X that isn't doing much and probably won't be for quite some time. The Capital cost of rewinging the 767 or 757 may not be that bad.

Plus tons of unused Factory space - especially if they shift all 787 to Charleston.

Put 787/777X wing on Photocopier and hit reduce - no need to push technology in an era of low fuel cost.

They could sell those frames at quite a low Capital price - they just need engines.

Although I can see an 767x as a lot more likely than 757x as 767x can use 748 engines which are about the same as weight as the Rolls Royce 763 Engines.

That with a PIP and new Wing could be compelling. Long live 7W and of course 737-8/10 ER versions.


How do you rewing a plane for which the tooling was destroyed 15 years ago? I understand that the 757 shares systems with the 767, but it doesn't share landing gear. There's a whole lots of things that would need to be recertified.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 8:57 pm

morrisond wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
If they did a 767 with a new wing, then I assume it is a given that it would be converted to fly by wire. Then there is the question of if the authorities would want it certified as an all new model, which is highly probable. So, that will be a more extensive scope of work than the 777x and more expensive. So I don't see that in the cards. IMO, the next all new wing will be on an all new aircraft, although a 764F with new engines seems like it has a good chance.


Quite possibly a 764 with new engines as a freighter is the easiest path forward.

777X is basically a new airplane - the advantage of 767X over a clean sheet is a lot less capital investment - even if you have to certify from scratch. However if you are using the 777x Fly by wire system that may save some certification activities as it will have been proven by then.


If they did a 767X as fly by wire with a 777X FBW system, couldn't it be certified with a common type rating as a 777 and 787?
 
jagraham
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 9:31 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
planecane wrote:
There will be a vaccine in 2 years max.

How do you know?

In 1984 a vaccine against HIV was also expected within 2 years. But after 36 years it still isn't there.

https://www.healthline.com/health/hiv-a ... ose-are-we


At least one coronavirus vaccine is working in monkeys. Human trials begin this month

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/suc ... 57846.html

It won't take 36 years for coronavirus. Not even close.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 10:09 pm

morrisond wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
If they did a 767 with a new wing, then I assume it is a given that it would be converted to fly by wire. Then there is the question of if the authorities would want it certified as an all new model, which is highly probable. So, that will be a more extensive scope of work than the 777x and more expensive. So I don't see that in the cards. IMO, the next all new wing will be on an all new aircraft, although a 764F with new engines seems like it has a good chance.


Quite possibly a 764 with new engines as a freighter is the easiest path forward.


Thats what I think too, and as a passenger variant shrinked to 767-300 fuselage lenght, ideally with those 777X sidewalls in the cabin allowing for 2-4-2 seating in Economy. This would make that 767X a killer.

The only problem may be: when has Boeing produced the last 767-400? 2002? 2003? Do they even have the tooling to build that -400 wingbox and wing? If I remember correctly they canceled the 767-400 production long ago.
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Stitch
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat May 02, 2020 11:30 pm

DLHAM wrote:
The only problem may be: when has Boeing produced the last 767-400? 2002? 2003? Do they even have the tooling to build that -400 wingbox and wing? If I remember correctly they canceled the 767-400 production long ago.


The last commercial delivery was in 2002 with Continental Airlines. One additional frame was ordered by the USAF in 2006 to serve as the demonstration aircraft for the E-10A Technology Development Program and it was completed in late 2007. When the E-10A program was cancelled, the frame was parked at PAE and eventually re-sold to the Bahrain Royal Flight.

At least as of early 2011 Boeing could still build a 767-400ER as FedEx expressed interest in it for a freighter before deciding to order more 767-300Fs. Boeing pulled the 767-400ER from their formal price lists sometime last decade so it may be that their suppliers no longer have the ability to produce the specific parts for the model.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 12:16 am

So at first I didn't think this made much sense. The 767/757 is a quite old design, I just happened to come across two delta models I have an MD-11 and 767-200, and while the planes are quite different in size I was amazed to find that the wings are very similar in size. After doing some more digging the 767 wing is just 600sqft smaller than the MD-11. For comparison the MD-11's wing is 1000sqft smaller than the 777.

So in looking at things, the 767 appears to have quite the capable wing, with a redesign to lighten the structure and some updated engines, the 767-200 and -300 would be quite impressive machines and I would have to imagine significantly cheaper than designing a whole new airplane. This does also help boeing in the narrow body area as well. While a refreshed 757 might not be as competitive, it would be cheap, but more importantly the work on refreshing the 767 would be like a test bed for the 737 replacement. Lessons learned on refreshing the 767 could be used for the new aircraft essentially the 797(737 replacement) would be a culmination of technology from 777X/787/767 refresh with the 767-800/-900 as the test bed for the most challenging tech.

After all the 767-200ER is a plane that seats 200-220 and has a range of 6500nm as it is today, a refreshed wing, and new engines would definitely make that more economical.

Even if this is closer to rumor than reality, it is definitely worth a closer look.
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planecane
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 1:08 am

Why would Boeing take on the expense of crazy modifications like a new wing for such a limited market? Wouldn't it make more sense just to make whatever changes are necessary to support new engines so the cargo version can keep being sold and then shop it with a low purchase price (relatively) to passenger airlines? I would think the biggest benefit to an airline of a 767NG would be low acquisition cost and also a short program so it is available sooner.

Maybe sculpting the sidewalls would make sense if it allows 17" seats at 8ab because that would significantly reduce CASM and make it more marketable. But the expense of a brand new wing seems like it would make the aircraft too expensive for a limited market.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 1:22 am

The 767 needs new engines, some wing tweaks and some fuselage length adjustments. It's controls have been updated over time for various versions.
The 757 fuselage is great other than possibly adjusting the lengths of the 2 versions. It needs a new wing and engines and better controls.

The upside is that they can still work the "same type rating" angle by applying the same driver interface and flight characteristics to both.
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ikramerica
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 1:24 am

Stitch wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
The only problem may be: when has Boeing produced the last 767-400? 2002? 2003? Do they even have the tooling to build that -400 wingbox and wing? If I remember correctly they canceled the 767-400 production long ago.


The last commercial delivery was in 2002 with Continental Airlines. One additional frame was ordered by the USAF in 2006 to serve as the demonstration aircraft for the E-10A Technology Development Program and it was completed in late 2007. When the E-10A program was cancelled, the frame was parked at PAE and eventually re-sold to the Bahrain Royal Flight.

At least as of early 2011 Boeing could still build a 767-400ER as FedEx expressed interest in it for a freighter before deciding to order more 767-300Fs. Boeing pulled the 767-400ER from their formal price lists sometime last decade so it may be that their suppliers no longer have the ability to produce the specific parts for the model.


I would assume they would want more modern tooling to build the modified wing they would use anyway, and if the wing box is made with new materials, the tooling would need modification. Plus it would be 20 years old.
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par13del
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 1:49 am

morrisond wrote:
I totally get it - but that A330 also has the structure for a MTOW of 242T

We are talking about a wing (a new 777x folding style), structure and engines optimized for something more like 150-165T which should make it significantly more efficient. Maybe 50K Max thrust engines. Wing 48M folded - 53-54M unfolded built in the new 777X Wing factory.
.

Why would you want a new wing that is long enough to require folding?
The NMA / MOM a/c for Boeing is supposed to be abused when competing with the A321 and less of an a/c than the 787, so it must sit between the MAX-10 / 200 and the 787-8.
As such, if you start with a 767 you only need a wing based on new material, see if you can save weight, take a tip from the A330 / A321, no one is using an A330 when a A321 can do the job. Beefing the 767 up to match the A330 makes no sense, that's what the 787 was built for, do all that can be done to keep the a/c at the 767-200 size, it would offer a bit more comfort than the A321 with more range and payload, if you need less get a MAX, if you need more get a 787.
The changes from the 787-9 being ported to the 787-8 may have been due to AA but they did anticipate additional sales, at least prior to COVID.
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 2:16 am

the 767-400 wingspan is 14 ft longer than the 767-300 so there might some issues for the integrators with parking. That might have been why FedEx nor UPS didn't order them in 2011. A folding wing 767X might be the answer.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 2:23 am

UPS757Pilot wrote:
the 767-400 wingspan is 14 ft longer than the 767-300 so there might some issues for the integrators with parking. That might have been why FedEx nor UPS didn't order them in 2011. A folding wing 767X might be the answer.

The 767-400 has a raked wingtip extension.

There may be a way to get a more efficient split scimitar design that closer to the 763 wingspan.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 2:52 am

par13del wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I totally get it - but that A330 also has the structure for a MTOW of 242T

We are talking about a wing (a new 777x folding style), structure and engines optimized for something more like 150-165T which should make it significantly more efficient. Maybe 50K Max thrust engines. Wing 48M folded - 53-54M unfolded built in the new 777X Wing factory.
.

Why would you want a new wing that is long enough to require folding?
The NMA / MOM a/c for Boeing is supposed to be abused when competing with the A321 and less of an a/c than the 787, so it must sit between the MAX-10 / 200 and the 787-8.
As such, if you start with a 767 you only need a wing based on new material, see if you can save weight, take a tip from the A330 / A321, no one is using an A330 when a A321 can do the job. Beefing the 767 up to match the A330 makes no sense, that's what the 787 was built for, do all that can be done to keep the a/c at the 767-200 size, it would offer a bit more comfort than the A321 with more range and payload, if you need less get a MAX, if you need more get a 787.
The changes from the 787-9 being ported to the 787-8 may have been due to AA but they did anticipate additional sales, at least prior to COVID.


I have no idea how long the wing would need to be and at 150-165T 48m may be more than enough - but Boeing does have the tech if they want to put something on it that is very efficient with a very high spect ratio.

This is not about beefing the 767 up to 787 - it's actually about optimizing it around the NMA mission at 5,500Nm maximum and sizing everything off that.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 2:55 am

ikramerica wrote:
Stitch wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
The only problem may be: when has Boeing produced the last 767-400? 2002? 2003? Do they even have the tooling to build that -400 wingbox and wing? If I remember correctly they canceled the 767-400 production long ago.


The last commercial delivery was in 2002 with Continental Airlines. One additional frame was ordered by the USAF in 2006 to serve as the demonstration aircraft for the E-10A Technology Development Program and it was completed in late 2007. When the E-10A program was cancelled, the frame was parked at PAE and eventually re-sold to the Bahrain Royal Flight.

At least as of early 2011 Boeing could still build a 767-400ER as FedEx expressed interest in it for a freighter before deciding to order more 767-300Fs. Boeing pulled the 767-400ER from their formal price lists sometime last decade so it may be that their suppliers no longer have the ability to produce the specific parts for the model.


I would assume they would want more modern tooling to build the modified wing they would use anyway, and if the wing box is made with new materials, the tooling would need modification. Plus it would be 20 years old.


Watching the new wing factory videos it kind of seems like the tools used to build the 777X wing could be used to build an 767x wing. At the very least they can use the same Autoclaves - of which Boeing built three - they have the capacity to make wings for another program.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 4:14 am

MartijnNL wrote:
planecane wrote:
There will be a vaccine in 2 years max.

How do you know?

In 1984 a vaccine against HIV was also expected within 2 years. But after 36 years it still isn't there.


This isn't HIV. We already have coronavirus candidates that work in animals. In 1984, molecular virology was a very primitive science. In 2020, we have tools at our disposal that give us a much better idea of what is and what isn't possible. This is CivAv so I'm not going to go into why an HIV vaccine is so difficult while a coronavirus vaccine is well within reach. But it's easier than flu.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Sparker
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 4:23 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
However Boeing does have a brand new Wing factory built for the 777X that isn't doing much and probably won't be for quite some time. The Capital cost of rewinging the 767 or 757 may not be that bad.

Plus tons of unused Factory space - especially if they shift all 787 to Charleston.

Put 787/777X wing on Photocopier and hit reduce - no need to push technology in an era of low fuel cost.

They could sell those frames at quite a low Capital price - they just need engines.

Although I can see an 767x as a lot more likely than 757x as 767x can use 748 engines which are about the same as weight as the Rolls Royce 763 Engines.

That with a PIP and new Wing could be compelling. Long live 7W and of course 737-8/10 ER versions.


How do you rewing a plane for which the tooling was destroyed 15 years ago? I understand that the 757 shares systems with the 767, but it doesn't share landing gear. There's a whole lots of things that would need to be recertified.


I don't read the article as suggesting literally a 757-Plus or 767X; I read it as suggesting two different models, that are targeted at the 757 and 767 markets respectively, rather than trying to produce a single MOM model with variants that target those markets.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sun May 03, 2020 4:25 am

Stitch wrote:
When the E-10A program was cancelled, the frame was parked at PAE and eventually re-sold to the Bahrain Royal Flight.

Rumor or sound byte aside, that is still one of the slickest state transports around..... :bigthumbsup:



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