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Antaras
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 1:51 am

Devilfish wrote:
morrisond wrote:
If they do reuse 748 engines (maybe with a PIP) then they could have it flying by 2025/2026. They do have an GEnx-1B54/P2 listed as an option with 57T of thrust - I know that is the 787 Engine with bleed less design - no reason they couldn't derate the 2B as well.

GE Aviation no longer lists the -1B54/P2 among its offered engines for the 787 - and I think it also had the 111.1" diameter fan.....

https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/e ... enx-engine


Unless they would do an updated, de-scaled, bleed version for this mooted 767X.


The -1B54/58P2 was never an offered engine for the 787 family. The 787s use the 1B70 (788), 1B74/75 (789) and 1B76/78 (78X)

However I see the 1B58/P2 has higher potential for the 767X due to its thrust is quite close to the 763ER's thrust. A PIP would be perfect. GE may be developing something called GEnx-1B58X/P2, of course base on the mentioned 1B58/P2, but a lighten and (slightly) uprated version.
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Devilfish
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 2:29 am

Antaras wrote:
The -1B54/58P2 was never an offered engine for the 787 family. The 787s use the 1B70 (788), 1B74/75 (789) and 1B76/78 (78X)

I'd hazard a guess (likely wrong) that they were looking at it for the stillborn 787-3.

Antaras wrote:
However I see the 1B58/P2 has higher potential for the 767X due to its thrust is quite close to the 763ER's thrust. A PIP would be perfect. GE may be developing something called GEnx-1B58X/P2, of course base on the mentioned 1B58/P2, but a lighten and (slightly) uprated version.

Your link mentioned that GE was already offering the GEnx-2B last fall for the 767-XF based on the 767-400ER, but needed volume to proceed. Is there any indication now that this latest incarnation won't be based on the latter?
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Stitch
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 4:46 am

Devilfish wrote:
GE Aviation no longer lists the -1B54/P2 among its offered engines for the 787 - and I think it also had the 111.1" diameter fan...


All GEnx-1B engines should have an identical fan diameter. And the 54/P2 is still in the FAA and EASA TCDS so I expect it is still an option since thrust appears to be controlled via an engine identification plug (2125M31P62 in the case of the 54/P2).
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 5:14 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I agree that NG would most likely be the official Boeing name. When I call it the 767NEO I use that name as it best describes the upgrade of only fitting new engines. The A330NEO and A320NEO were pretty much engine only upgrades. They were basic and cost less than $2 billion.

The 737NG and 777X both have a brand new wing that was significantly bigger, a fuselage stretch and new engines. Using 767NG and 767X on here people might think of an extensively upgraded 767 model.

Uprated engines that were proposed for the 797 would be far better than using derated engines off the 747-8. The proposed 797 engine would be lighter and have better fuel burn but that comes at a higher development cost. That extra cost would easily cocer the extra sales it would generate.


To be fair Airbus did have the A320-E enchanted program of modifying the wing and winglets before the new engine opinions came. The Max mods was "basic" as well?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 5:24 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that it won't just be a lengthened 767-2c, stretched out a few frames past 763 length, with the GenX2B engines and any needed 764 parts to deal with the extra MTOW and bigger engines. Changing anything else, aside from a diet, makes it needlessly capable and adds a whole bunch of costs.


In times of an empty R&D account lengthening the 767-2C, stretching it past the 763 sufficient to address the 6% higher thrust affecting the rudder performance, swapping in the 764 wing & gear, and going with the GEnX-2B seems to be the only development that could fit the budget and make sense. It would take UPS, Amazon, &/or FedEX signing up for 50 or more to make it happen. It is probably only a freighter, but if done well could be taken to the full 764 length as a medium range passenger jet.

Wing - already done
Gear - already done
Engine - already done (note the 2B was because the larger fan would not fit under the 748 wing, nor the 767 wing, but the 2B does.
Base airframe - certified in around 2016 - done.

So this is a stretch and integration project. Basically no new tech, keeps the prices low.
 
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ADent
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 7:01 am

Seems like the 767+ should be a minimum change variant.

But the 757+ is where the investment is needed. Use the 777X wing line on this.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 7:04 am

I could see a 767 update making a lot of sense. Possibly Boeing trying to reclaim Delta and getting them to stay with their large 767 fleets instead of switching everything over to A330NEOs.

Maybe even American, they are joined at the hip to the A330s from US Airways, while they have a sizable 787 fleet, something cheaper for Domestic flights would be good, maybe even widebodies on their JFK-LAX/SFO routes which while served well with their A321Ts, means they're at a capacity disadvantage.
 
US319
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 7:43 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
I could see a 767 update making a lot of sense. Possibly Boeing trying to reclaim Delta and getting them to stay with their large 767 fleets instead of switching everything over to A330NEOs.

Maybe even American, they are joined at the hip to the A330s from US Airways, while they have a sizable 787 fleet, something cheaper for Domestic flights would be good, maybe even widebodies on their JFK-LAX/SFO routes which while served well with their A321Ts, means they're at a capacity disadvantage.


Delta has 15 767s left, AA 14 or so. I wouldn´t call that large fleets...
 
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seahawk
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 8:20 am

They also have quite a few A330CEOs.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 8:52 am

US319 wrote:
Delta has 15 767s left, AA 14 or so. I wouldn´t call that large fleets...

There are 200 787-8 aircraft that are now 15 years old. There is also 400 A330CEO's that are over 15 years old.

Now most of these aircraft were purchased because they were the smallest aircraft that could fly 4000+nm. I dare say a huge portion of these aircraft would be on routes where the airline would prefer a smaller aircraft.

That could easily mean 200 767NEO orders to rrplace these aircraft.

If the market takes a long time to recover airlines will no longer want to replace their 777's with a similar size aircraft. They will want to downgauge. We assume a downgauge to a 787 size as it carries two thirds the number of passengers with two thirds of the fuel burn. But airlines might want to downgauge all the way to the 767 size with half the number of passengers with half of the fuel burn. There are hundreds of 777's to be replaced in the next 5 years.

A 767-300 with cleansheet engine could fly any 777W route with just under half of the passenger load.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 9:28 am

There are 200 787-8 aircraft that are now 15 years old.

There are???? The oldest flying 788 is just over 9 years old.
Last edited by tullamarine on Tue May 05, 2020 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 9:29 am

RJMAZ wrote:
There are 200 787-8 aircraft that are now 15 years old.


788 EIS was October 26, 2011, with All Nippon Airways - so 8 years today. 15 when the 767x arrives in 2027.

Now most of these aircraft were purchased because they were the smallest aircraft that could fly 4000+nm. I dare say a huge portion of these aircraft would be on routes where the airline would prefer a smaller aircraft.

That could easily mean 200 767NEO orders to replace these aircraft.

If the market takes a long time to recover airlines will no longer want to replace their 777's with a similar size aircraft. They will want to downgauge. We assume a downgauge to a 787 size as it carries two thirds the number of passengers with two thirds of the fuel burn. But airlines might want to downgauge all the way to the 767 size with half the number of passengers with half of the fuel burn. There are hundreds of 777's to be replaced in the next 5 years.

A 767-300 with cleansheet engine could fly any 777W route with just under half of the passenger load.


A small widebody does well on routes with cargo, A321's doing anything close to 4,000 nm cannot fit cargo.

The 767x makes sense for cargo, maybe do a separate passenger plane possibly including the large door frame into the structure so in 10 -12 years it can convert to freighter if need be. They only need 50 orders to launch this baby.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 9:40 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
There are 200 787-8 aircraft that are now 15 years old.


788 EIS was October 26, 2011, with All Nippon Airways - so 8 years today. 15 when the 767x arrives in 2027.

Now most of these aircraft were purchased because they were the smallest aircraft that could fly 4000+nm. I dare say a huge portion of these aircraft would be on routes where the airline would prefer a smaller aircraft.

That could easily mean 200 767NEO orders to replace these aircraft.

If the market takes a long time to recover airlines will no longer want to replace their 777's with a similar size aircraft. They will want to downgauge. We assume a downgauge to a 787 size as it carries two thirds the number of passengers with two thirds of the fuel burn. But airlines might want to downgauge all the way to the 767 size with half the number of passengers with half of the fuel burn. There are hundreds of 777's to be replaced in the next 5 years.

A 767-300 with cleansheet engine could fly any 777W route with just under half of the passenger load.


A small widebody does well on routes with cargo, A321's doing anything close to 4,000 nm cannot fit cargo.

The 767x makes sense for cargo, maybe do a separate passenger plane possibly including the large door frame into the structure so in 10 -12 years it can convert to freighter if need be. They only need 50 orders to launch this baby.

This whole thing seems like a fiction. The plan this thread proposes is to spend billions expanding what will be a near 50 year old design which is targetting taking sales from another Boeing stablemate, the 788; the A321XLR is much smaller and targets a different market. Any major changes such as FBW will trigger a complete re-certification so there will be extra changes and $ to bring the '70s vintage 767 up to modern standards and all of this is on the back of the biggest economic crisis airlines have ever experienced with the market going backwards by 5-10 years and available capital for expansion largely eliminated for the next 5 years.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 10:09 am

For the few people frothing about the nomenclature, why not go with 767NG :stirthepot:

Maybe they should introduce a new scheme for their next generations of planes -

B808: A220 size
B828: A32X size
B838: A32X and plus size and bigger wing, range
B858: B763-A338 size but medium range
B868: per above but bigger wing, range
B878: B789/7810neo
B898: 777Xneo.

Now that I’ve lobbed that grenade, thank you and good night. :duck:
Cheers,
C1973
 
marcelh
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 10:31 am

RJMAZ wrote:
US319 wrote:
Delta has 15 767s left, AA 14 or so. I wouldn´t call that large fleets...

There are 200 787-8 aircraft that are now 15 years old. There is also 400 A330CEO's that are over 15 years old.

Now most of these aircraft were purchased because they were the smallest aircraft that could fly 4000+nm. I dare say a huge portion of these aircraft would be on routes where the airline would prefer a smaller aircraft.

That could easily mean 200 767NEO orders to rrplace these aircraft.


Whisful thinking. A lot of these A330 are the larger A33-300, so they were chosen because of their size. And a lot of those B788 are operated by airlines which also have the B789/10. It might only be a viable option for those who are flying the B767 and haven't made their mind up yet for an replacement, but this 767X has to compete with second hand A332/A333. And we don't know how many A330 and B787 will come available because some airlines won't survive the COVID-19 crisis. As said before, Boeing should have done this a decade ago, but at that time they were busy solving some issues with the 787....
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 11:19 am

keesje wrote:
Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
A re-enginining of the 767 has been looked for more then 15 years.

Boeing IMO should using the modifications developed and certified for the tankers and latest 767F's.

New wings would be nice if lead time & funding weren't an issue. They are.

The 767-200 as a basis seems short / heav0y. the 400 fully overlapping with the 787.

The -300 seems a nice spot. The 763's 90t empty weight is 30t (!) less than 787 and A330.

That should trickle down in lower operating costs in all areas.

Yes, reuse of tech saves money, 767MAX, 77X, etc.

Somehow you advocate it for 767 but strongly oppose it for 77X.

Strange world we live in.


Yes, indeed. But unlike a 767 re engining, the 777x doesn’t Reuse much tech. It used the 777 certification base to grandfather in new wings engines, tail, fuselage. Many insiders, Boeing employees, for years stumbling over each other to tell me I saw it wrong. Suggesting deletion, mis-qouting, generalizating, renaming threads. Man, was I miss guided, doubting Boeing - FAA certification.. who did I think I was.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 87.article


It is not new.
It is not unique to Boeing.

Others like Airbus also in the past (2002) we have seen the A340-500 / -600 grandfathering. Why create an unnecessary controversy? :roll:
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 11:37 am

Yes just re-engine and using some 400 parts is the easiest. - but it's only god as a freighter that way.

They would have to rewing and basically only keep the nose section and outer Mold line while making it a lot lighter and with a lot less capability so it works as a passenger aircraft. There would be almost 0 50 year old tech - unless you consider 777x tech 50 years old.

There is probably a reason it is called the 767x -as it resembles the changes of the 777x program. The article also reported that it included a new wing.

If this study was just a re-engine they probably would not have called it 767x.

People are also discounting how little scarce capital it would require vs a clean sheet MOM aircraft. It could be the right solution for the times.
 
randomdude83
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 11:49 am

What is the actual weight of the GEnX engine compared to the current 767 offerings? Also doesn’t the larger size of the GEnX can potentially lead into the same path of 737max where the engines gets hung higher and cause aerodynamic issues?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 11:58 am

morrisond wrote:
People are also discounting how little scarce capital it would require vs a clean sheet MOM aircraft.


How 'little'? While obviously cheaper than an all-new design, updating the 767 like the 777X will not be cheap. Per Wikipedia, estimated cost of the 777X program was over $5 billion in 2013. With delays, it will be well over that now.

How much real demand will there be for a "new" 767 passenger jet for airlines reeling from billions of losses?

The article also states that "One insider said the 767 study focused on the plane’s role as a freighter, while others saw a possible passenger role." There's a big difference between seeing a possible passenger role and actually building and selling one.
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morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 1:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
morrisond wrote:
People are also discounting how little scarce capital it would require vs a clean sheet MOM aircraft.


How 'little'? While obviously cheaper than an all-new design, updating the 767 like the 777X will not be cheap. Per Wikipedia, estimated cost of the 777X program was over $5 billion in 2013. With delays, it will be well over that now.

How much real demand will there be for a "new" 767 passenger jet for airlines reeling from billions of losses?

The article also states that "One insider said the 767 study focused on the plane’s role as a freighter, while others saw a possible passenger role." There's a big difference between seeing a possible passenger role and actually building and selling one.


I think the 777X is actually about $8 Billion but I believe that includes the new $1B wing factory.

This should be cheaper as it is reusing what was learned on 777X.

Do I think they will actually do it? I'd say it's less than 50% - however I'm quite certain that if they only re-engine it they will sell essentially zero as passenger models.

Otherwise I can't see Boeing doing anything larger than 737-10 up to 788 for at least a decade in the passenger space.

If current Airline losses continue to the time of 767X delivery there will be no airline industry.

They will be able to sell these for a lot less than a clean sheet - which would take a good ten years as it most likely will include a new Cockpit Philosophy/manufacturing system.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 2:22 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
What is the actual weight of the GEnX engine compared to the current 767 offerings? Also doesn’t the larger size of the GEnX can potentially lead into the same path of 737max where the engines gets hung higher and cause aerodynamic issues?


Assuming existing wing the Height of the 400 shouldn't be an issue as it has taller gear.

The weight of the RB211-524 (heaviest 763 Engine) is listed as 5,688–5,790 kg

The weight of the GEnx-2B67 is 5,613 KG according to this

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 191213.pdf

Both are listed as dry weights. According to these references the GEnx is actually lighter than RB211.

The CF6-80C2 is listed as 4,300–4,470 kg so GEnx is heavier - but the 763 can take the heavier RB211 so GEnx should not be a huge engineering challenge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_CF6

The weight should not be a problem New Wing or not. A new Wing could be canted up like 777X to get more clearance with existing Fuselage height above the ground on shorter than 400 models.

That would also simplify the aero as you can then reuse the 777X wing shape.

If they update the GEnx with PIP's it could lose some weight with lighter CMC rotating parts for the lower thrust.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 3:07 pm

US319 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
I could see a 767 update making a lot of sense. Possibly Boeing trying to reclaim Delta and getting them to stay with their large 767 fleets instead of switching everything over to A330NEOs.

Maybe even American, they are joined at the hip to the A330s from US Airways, while they have a sizable 787 fleet, something cheaper for Domestic flights would be good, maybe even widebodies on their JFK-LAX/SFO routes which while served well with their A321Ts, means they're at a capacity disadvantage.

Delta has 15 767s left, AA 14 or so. I wouldn´t call that large fleets...

AA has already announced that the the 767s and 757s aren't coming back. They were supposed to be gone end of this year anyway. AA is now taking delivery of their 788s with the 789 tail that we spent a lot of time talking about when they were ordered. AA also has A321 and A330ceo. It's hard to see them taking 767s going forward.

DL has A330neo and a large 767 fleet but seems to be more interested in keeping the vendors honest rather than rationalizing their fleet. I have a hard time seeing them wanting 767s even with new engines. They are already used to aircraft such as A350 that have modern systems with predictive maintenance. I can't see them wanting to take in new 767 with its old systems and I can't see Boeing spending to upgrade 767 with new systems.

UA seemed to be the most interested in updated 767s but that was before they ordered A321XLR and before COVID-19. Lord knows if/when they would be interested in re-engined 767s.
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Antaras
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 3:07 pm

So basically we are waiting for a lighten (and slightly derated) version of the GEnx-2B67, aren't we?
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 3:14 pm

Antaras wrote:
So basically we are waiting for a lighten (and slightly derated) version of the GEnx-2B67, aren't we?

We might have a bit of a wait.

BBC: GE to cut up to quarter of its aviation staff says:

The potential 13,000 job cuts at GE Aviation, which makes jet engines for companies such as Boeing and Airbus and employs about 52,000 people in 19 countries worldwide, comes shortly after the unit revealed profits had fallen roughly 40% in the three months to March.

They are part of a wider $3bn (£2,4bn) cost-saving effort, as the industry warns of an 80% drop in global air travel this quarter.

"As this pandemic continues to advance, our understanding of its impact on our industry and our business has also evolved," GE Aviation President David Joyce said in a message to staff. "Unfortunately more is required as we scale the business to the realities of our commercial market".

IMO they won't be lightening their engine for 767 any time soon. IMO they'll be glad to help fit an existing product to the airframe but that's about it. I also doubt Boeing could get enough orders for a modified 767 any time soon.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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randomdude83
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 3:16 pm

morrisond wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
What is the actual weight of the GEnX engine compared to the current 767 offerings? Also doesn’t the larger size of the GEnX can potentially lead into the same path of 737max where the engines gets hung higher and cause aerodynamic issues?


Assuming existing wing the Height of the 400 shouldn't be an issue as it has taller gear.

The weight of the RB211-524 (heaviest 763 Engine) is listed as 5,688–5,790 kg

The weight of the GEnx-2B67 is 5,613 KG according to this

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 191213.pdf

Both are listed as dry weights. According to these references the GEnx is actually lighter than RB211.

The CF6-80C2 is listed as 4,300–4,470 kg so GEnx is heavier - but the 763 can take the heavier RB211 so GEnx should not be a huge engineering challenge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_CF6

The weight should not be a problem New Wing or not. A new Wing could be canted up like 777X to get more clearance with existing Fuselage height above the ground on shorter than 400 models.

That would also simplify the aero as you can then reuse the 777X wing shape.

If they update the GEnx with PIP's it could lose some weight with lighter CMC rotating parts for the lower thrust.


what that confirms is GE definitely have to redesign the GEnX to be in the same weight as the CF6 and actually have a 10% or more efficiency while producing the same thrust to actually be worth the effort and investment.

I mean might as well just purchase the current CF6 and keep 2 Tons of potential weight you could use for fright/passenger.
 
morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 3:34 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
What is the actual weight of the GEnX engine compared to the current 767 offerings? Also doesn’t the larger size of the GEnX can potentially lead into the same path of 737max where the engines gets hung higher and cause aerodynamic issues?


Assuming existing wing the Height of the 400 shouldn't be an issue as it has taller gear.

The weight of the RB211-524 (heaviest 763 Engine) is listed as 5,688–5,790 kg

The weight of the GEnx-2B67 is 5,613 KG according to this

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 191213.pdf

Both are listed as dry weights. According to these references the GEnx is actually lighter than RB211.

The CF6-80C2 is listed as 4,300–4,470 kg so GEnx is heavier - but the 763 can take the heavier RB211 so GEnx should not be a huge engineering challenge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_CF6

The weight should not be a problem New Wing or not. A new Wing could be canted up like 777X to get more clearance with existing Fuselage height above the ground on shorter than 400 models.

That would also simplify the aero as you can then reuse the 777X wing shape.

If they update the GEnx with PIP's it could lose some weight with lighter CMC rotating parts for the lower thrust.


what that confirms is GE definitely have to redesign the GEnX to be in the same weight as the CF6 and actually have a 10% or more efficiency while producing the same thrust to actually be worth the effort and investment.

I mean might as well just purchase the current CF6 and keep 2 Tons of potential weight you could use for fright/passenger.


For a given mission of normal length you would be loading a lot less than that weight in fuel with more modern GEnx's. GEnx's I think have about 15% better SFC. So if you load 50T of fuel with CF6's (767 ER Fuel capacity is 73.4T) - you would be loading 42.5T of Fuel with an GEnx - and as overall weight would be lower at takeoff - you can can again load even less fuel - a nice virtuous circle.

https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/e ... enx-engine
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 4:07 pm

morrisond wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Assuming existing wing the Height of the 400 shouldn't be an issue as it has taller gear.

The weight of the RB211-524 (heaviest 763 Engine) is listed as 5,688–5,790 kg

The weight of the GEnx-2B67 is 5,613 KG according to this

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 191213.pdf

Both are listed as dry weights. According to these references the GEnx is actually lighter than RB211.

The CF6-80C2 is listed as 4,300–4,470 kg so GEnx is heavier - but the 763 can take the heavier RB211 so GEnx should not be a huge engineering challenge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_CF6

The weight should not be a problem New Wing or not. A new Wing could be canted up like 777X to get more clearance with existing Fuselage height above the ground on shorter than 400 models.

That would also simplify the aero as you can then reuse the 777X wing shape.

If they update the GEnx with PIP's it could lose some weight with lighter CMC rotating parts for the lower thrust.


what that confirms is GE definitely have to redesign the GEnX to be in the same weight as the CF6 and actually have a 10% or more efficiency while producing the same thrust to actually be worth the effort and investment.

I mean might as well just purchase the current CF6 and keep 2 Tons of potential weight you could use for fright/passenger.


For a given mission of normal length you would be loading a lot less than that weight in fuel with more modern GEnx's. GEnx's I think have about 15% better SFC. So if you load 50T of fuel with CF6's (767 ER Fuel capacity is 73.4T) - you would be loading 42.5T of Fuel with an GEnx - and as overall weight would be lower at takeoff - you can can again load even less fuel - a nice virtuous circle.

https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/e ... enx-engine


I understand where you're coming from. But your assumption is missing that in order for the GEnX to give you 15%, it has to have a lovely efficient wing to help it so. which the original article mentions. That Boeing is studying a costlier re winged 767. That right there tells you that the current 767 wing with GEnx won't make a meaningful difference for the fright companies to shell money for.

To me, The GEnX has that efficient wing with the 787. It really feels like Boeing should be focusing on 787 with may be reinforced floor for fright and of course newly cut door Versus brand new Wing/Engine design for 767. Everything else can not be that costly including pilot transition to the 787/ and or using current Cargo containers in the 787F.

The only thing that could truly be in the way of the 787F is if Boeing has an internal study that says composite fuselage/wing is too frail for fright operations and if that is not the case. really the solution is very obvious here.

Not only that but that money that Boeing wants to spend on re winged 767, I bet it'll only cost half of it if invested in the 787F and that can trickle to 789F and even 7810F.

That also leaves Boeing with the task of only designing ONE brand new wing and maybe engine configuration for the much needed 757/737 Replacment. The Actual project that will save your future.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 4:14 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:

what that confirms is GE definitely have to redesign the GEnX to be in the same weight as the CF6 and actually have a 10% or more efficiency while producing the same thrust to actually be worth the effort and investment.

I mean might as well just purchase the current CF6 and keep 2 Tons of potential weight you could use for fright/passenger.


For a given mission of normal length you would be loading a lot less than that weight in fuel with more modern GEnx's. GEnx's I think have about 15% better SFC. So if you load 50T of fuel with CF6's (767 ER Fuel capacity is 73.4T) - you would be loading 42.5T of Fuel with an GEnx - and as overall weight would be lower at takeoff - you can can again load even less fuel - a nice virtuous circle.

https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/e ... enx-engine


I understand where you're coming from. But your assumption is missing that in order for the GEnX to give you 15%, it has to have a lovely efficient wing to help it so. which the original article mentions. That Boeing is studying a costlier re winged 767. That right there tells you that the current 767 wing with GEnx won't make a meaningful difference for the fright companies to shell money for.

To me, The GEnX has that efficient wing with the 787. It really feels like Boeing should be focusing on 787 with may be reinforced floor for fright and of course newly cut door Versus brand new Wing/Engine design for 767. Everything else can not be that costly including pilot transition to the 787/ and or using current Cargo containers in the 787F.

The only thing that could truly be in the way of the 787F is if Boeing has an internal study that says composite fuselage/wing is too frail for fright operations and if that is not the case. really the solution is very obvious here.

Not only that but that money that Boeing wants to spend on re winged 767, I bet it'll only cost half of it if invested in the 787F and that can trickle to 789F and even 7810F.

That also leaves Boeing with the task of only designing ONE brand new wing and maybe engine configuration for the much needed 757/737 Replacment. The Actual project that will save your future.


If you read through the GE information you will see the GEnx is good for 15% itself on the same wing. A rewinged lightened 767 could be 20-25% more efficient.

That being said if it's for Cargo only they won't rewing it.

They need to change the engines on the 767f due to new emissions rules coming in 2028.

It's just whether or not they go full X and make it attractive for the passenger market - which admittedly is low probability - but is what they would have to do to make it viable.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 6:15 pm

In terms of rewinging the 767, my question is how long has Boeing been working on this? We know that they've looked at reworking the 767 for several years, and United wanted passenger versions last year, or at least inquired about their availability. The KC-46 is also still in production. So given the amount of engineering and potential studies that have gone into the 767 over the years, has Boeing already begun redesigning the wing? Are they perhaps further along than we're aware? If so, and its financially viable, then we could be seeing a 767X emerge somewhat earlier than anticipated. And, given the massive amount of cash Boeing's recent bond offering raised, they certainly do have the money to redesign the 767 further should demand actually emerge.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 11:20 pm

US319 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
I could see a 767 update making a lot of sense. Possibly Boeing trying to reclaim Delta and getting them to stay with their large 767 fleets instead of switching everything over to A330NEOs.

Maybe even American, they are joined at the hip to the A330s from US Airways, while they have a sizable 787 fleet, something cheaper for Domestic flights would be good, maybe even widebodies on their JFK-LAX/SFO routes which while served well with their A321Ts, means they're at a capacity disadvantage.


Delta has 15 767s left, AA 14 or so. I wouldn´t call that large fleets...


Parked does not equal retired; not at Delta, anyway. See the 1Q20 earnings call transcript or 10-Q filing.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue May 05, 2020 11:41 pm

So, if Boeing is looking not to spend the money on a new family, and airlines need a smaller aircraft then the 787, is there space for combi 787?

Build a wing for the 787-3 with a folding tip to match 767 gates while remaining aerodynamically viable, build a cargo hold after the main deck and try for "good enough" efficacy?
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed May 06, 2020 12:15 pm

tullamarine wrote:
This whole thing seems like a fiction. The plan this thread proposes is to spend billions expanding what will be a near 50 year old design which is targetting taking sales from another Boeing stablemate, the 788; the A321XLR is much smaller and targets a different market.

A330-200 OEW: 120,6 t
A330-800 OEW: I don't know. Based on input from Stitch I assume 9 t extra. ( viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1445735 )
B787-8 OEW: 120 t

The A330-800 has OEW of maybe 130 t and MTOW of 251 t.
The B787-8 has an OEW of 120t and MTOW of 228t.
10 t more OEW of A330-800 for 23 t more MTOW. One can exclude the A330-800 as competitor for a reengined B767. The competition is B787-8 if it's a new plane. But I believe old A330-200 is the closer competitor.

However:
A reengined B767 has no true competitor and is much cheaper to build than B787-8. I assume Boeing's profit range would be higher.
Considering that the only new plane competitor on top is a 228 t B787-8, I believe there is no point in having a short winged 187 t B767-300ER or even a stretch of it. It's better to go for -200 length and optimize engines for lower MTOW. That way even a rewinged A330 wouldn't be a competition.
According to Wikipedia the B767-200ER has 179 t MTOW and a range of 6,590 nmi / 12,200 km.
However according to the chart below 83 t OEW and 175,5 t MTOW has a range of 6600 nm with 216 passengers (?) and nearly 5000 nm with MZFW.
Assuming that a 7 abreast plane isn't needed for transcontinental US it sounds right to me. 170 t MTOW with today's engines should do.

Image
source: p.48, https://www.slideshare.net/Silver1982/767-2960717

Would today's high bypass engines fit under a B767 for a MTOW of 170t?
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morrisond
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed May 06, 2020 2:16 pm

Sokes wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
This whole thing seems like a fiction. The plan this thread proposes is to spend billions expanding what will be a near 50 year old design which is targetting taking sales from another Boeing stablemate, the 788; the A321XLR is much smaller and targets a different market.

A330-200 OEW: 120,6 t
A330-800 OEW: I don't know. Based on input from Stitch I assume 9 t extra. ( viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1445735 )
B787-8 OEW: 120 t

The A330-800 has OEW of maybe 130 t and MTOW of 251 t.
The B787-8 has an OEW of 120t and MTOW of 228t.
10 t more OEW of A330-800 for 23 t more MTOW. One can exclude the A330-800 as competitor for a reengined B767. The competition is B787-8 if it's a new plane. But I believe old A330-200 is the closer competitor.

However:
A reengined B767 has no true competitor and is much cheaper to build than B787-8. I assume Boeing's profit range would be higher.
Considering that the only new plane competitor on top is a 228 t B787-8, I believe there is no point in having a short winged 187 t B767-300ER or even a stretch of it. It's better to go for -200 length and optimize engines for lower MTOW. That way even a rewinged A330 wouldn't be a competition.
According to Wikipedia the B767-200ER has 179 t MTOW and a range of 6,590 nmi / 12,200 km.
However according to the chart below 83 t OEW and 175,5 t MTOW has a range of 6600 nm with 216 passengers (?) and nearly 5000 nm with MZFW.
Assuming that a 7 abreast plane isn't needed for transcontinental US it sounds right to me. 170 t MTOW with today's engines should do.

Image
source: p.48, https://www.slideshare.net/Silver1982/767-2960717

Would today's high bypass engines fit under a B767 for a MTOW of 170t?


I think the Engines may have problems on anything less than the 400 as that seems to have a larger height above the ground due to new Gear.

Then if you need a new wing or new gear - the investment spiral begins - but the efficiency gets radically better.

If nothing else is in development (I'm assuming it's going to take 3-4 years to flush out 737 replacement and figure out new cockpit before big spending begins with 2030+ EIS) they should be able to find the $5-7B to do this over the next five years.

But as REV says - it's just whether or not they can get orders. I'm sure they will show multiple options to the airlines to see if they will bite.

The one advantage is that they should be able to sell this for a lot less than a Cleansheet NMA with new engines. The more and more I think of this - if they do a 767x it will most likely use a derivative of the GEnx-2b. They could offer this combo at a very attractive price and it would have trip costs a lot lower than any other new wide body. At 8W decent passenger capacity as well.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed May 06, 2020 2:21 pm

Sokes wrote:
A330-800 OEW: I don't know. Based on input from Stitch I assume 9 t extra. ( viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1445735 )

132 tons | 291,000lb
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed May 06, 2020 3:10 pm

Antaras wrote:
Sokes wrote:
A330-800 OEW: I don't know. Based on input from Stitch I assume 9 t extra. ( viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1445735 )

132 tons | 291,000lb

I also read that on Wikipedia. What raised my doubts:
On Wikipedia the difference between A330-200 and A330-300 is 8,8 t. However the difference between A330-800 and A330-900 is only 5 t. The source is from July 18.

OEW of A330-300 is given as 129,4 t while A330-900 is 137 t. If engine and wing weight increase is indeed 7,6 t, the A330-800 would be 128t.
I estimate the A330-800 OEW is in between 128t and 132 t. Stitch is right in the middle. At any rate for our B767 discussion it's clear that B787-8 and not A330-800 competes with a new engine B767.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed May 06, 2020 3:18 pm

If you rewing an aircraft, does that mean you have the option to locate the main gear at a new width so it can be longer?
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed May 06, 2020 4:58 pm

DenverTed wrote:
If you rewing an aircraft, does that mean you have the option to locate the main gear at a new width so it can be longer?


Yes - New Wing - new mounting points for the gear are possible.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed May 06, 2020 6:20 pm

I agree that the best way to go is the -200 length, but it should be based on the standard 200, with its 143 ton MTOW and 80 ton OEW. The freighter, if built, should be -300 length.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu May 07, 2020 3:11 pm

If Boeing is going to make a 757RS, we all agree it won't be a 757. It will basically be a NSA. It will be FBW (I can't imagine it not being) and likely have a lot of CFRP if not NTRP. So whatever they design won't be type-compatible with the 767NG.

As for the 767NG, I'd have thought that Boeing might have learned their lesson about strapping bigger engines onto an existing non-FBW frame.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu May 07, 2020 3:47 pm

DocLightning wrote:
As for the 767NG, I'd have thought that Boeing might have learned their lesson about strapping bigger engines onto an existing non-FBW frame.


Not forgetting the 767 is another “low rider” with short legs.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu May 07, 2020 4:59 pm

DocLightning wrote:
If Boeing is going to make a 757RS, we all agree it won't be a 757. It will basically be a NSA. It will be FBW (I can't imagine it not being) and likely have a lot of CFRP if not NTRP. So whatever they design won't be type-compatible with the 767NG.

As for the 767NG, I'd have thought that Boeing might have learned their lesson about strapping bigger engines onto an existing non-FBW frame.


If you bothered to read the various articles vs going straight for the attack and trashing Boeing one talks about longer gear - the other a new wing with presumably gear of appropriate length.

Also if you look at 777x and 787 which both have new gear the engines are mounted up high like the MAX as reportedly there is an aero benefit from it, Boeing just didn't design MCAS well enough on MAX to compensate.

BTW - the KC-46 has MCAS as well - but Multi sensor. Not sure about the regular 767.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu May 07, 2020 5:21 pm

scbriml wrote:
Not forgetting the 767 is another “low rider” with short legs.

Looking closer at the 764 photo in #202, you'd notice the mounted engine has adequate clearance from the tarmac -- courtesy of the 777 gear. Reusing the latter and maybe tweaking and relofting the 764 wing would give ample clearance for the GEnx2B.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu May 07, 2020 5:57 pm

scbriml wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
As for the 767NG, I'd have thought that Boeing might have learned their lesson about strapping bigger engines onto an existing non-FBW frame.

Not forgetting the 767 is another “low rider” with short legs.

I think the best study of what the 767X might be was from October, so only 6 months ago, but pre-covid and pre-Calhoun:

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 57.article

Given it's from FlightGlobal I'm confident they have some actual sources steering them in the right direction, as opposed to internet spitballing.

And yes it does say longer gear will be included:

FlightGlobal has learned that the study, with project name 767-XF, is based on the 767-400ER platform and powered by GE Aviation GEnx engines. To accommodate the larger-fan engines, the aircraft would incorporate extended landing gear to provide the necessary ground clearance.

The focus of the study is for the cargo market. Boeing is currently producing the newbuild 767-300 Freighter for FedEx and UPS and holds a firm backlog for 60 aircraft. The 767-XF would utilise the -300F's existing forward maindeck cargo door.

Beyond the re-engining and gear modifications, it is understood that the 767-XF study would be a minimum-change design using traditional structures. The projected in-service date would be around 2025.

But you never know, they have a version of MCAS for the KC-46! :stirthepot:
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 08, 2020 2:42 am

morrisond wrote:
If you read through the GE information you will see the GEnx is good for 15% itself on the same wing. A rewinged lightened 767 could be 20-25% more efficient.

That being said if it's for Cargo only they won't rewing it.

They need to change the engines on the 767f due to new emissions rules coming in 2028.

It's just whether or not they go full X and make it attractive for the passenger market - which admittedly is low probability - but is what they would have to do to make it viable.

As you say the freighter needs new engines and it needs to keep the original big wing to carry max cargo.

So only the passenger version would prefer a lighter wing. If you drop MTOW down to the levels you are talking about this version will need an entirely new engine to the freighter. You are looking at 25% less MTOW for the passenger version. The A350-1000 needed an entirely new engine core to support only a 12.5% MTOW increase.

On the 767 assembly line you are proposing it has the big original wing and small new wing. It must then have a heavy original wingbox/gear and a new light wingbox/gear. Then you want two new engines to fit onto 767 assembly line. Or you go with one engine for both and derate the passenger engine so far that SFC drops considerably. Even with one engine, integration with two wings will still cost much more.

This seems very unlikely and very costly.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 08, 2020 2:52 am

Weren't the original 757 and 767 built on the same line? Maybe Boeing is considering a modern reincarnation. In fact, I think I made a post about that over a year ago.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 08, 2020 3:33 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Weren't the original 757 and 767 built on the same line? Maybe Boeing is considering a modern reincarnation. In fact, I think I made a post about that over a year ago.


The 757 was built on its own FAL at Renton and the 767 on its own FAL at Everett.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 08, 2020 3:54 am

Antaras wrote:
So basically we are waiting for a lighten (and slightly derated) version of the GEnx-2B67, aren't we?

That would be the case.

To put the timeline into perspective this improved 767NEO would probably arrive only a few years before a 787NEO launch.

We might see an improved, smaller and hotter core for both the current 1B and 2B engines. Basically a very large PIP to fit the current nacelle. Keeping the nacelle is one of the main features that define a PIP versus a new engine. They could effectively be called a GEnx-3B and GEnx-4B.

Historically most engines get uprated thrust after a few years. It makes sense for GE to first launch this new core on the lower thrust 767. As the weak point of this new core are found and eliminated it can then be turned up to power a larger fan for the 787NEO. GE will invest to get sole source on 787NEO. Testing a new core on a 190t MTOW 767 is a great risk eliminator and will save Boeing on development costs.

If we look at the Trent 700 versus Trent 500. The Trent 500 had a newer, smaller and hotter core fitted to the same fan of the Trent 700 in the same diameter nacelle. The bypass ratio went up from 5.0:1 to 7.6:1. But the most important feature related to the 767NEO is that weight and thrust went down 20%.

Likewise the Trent 1000 on the 787 has already had a brand new core fitted in the form of the TrentTen. Because it was fitted in the same nacelle it was sold as a PIP and very minimal flight testing was required. Most people have no idea this engine had 80% of the parts changed it helps explain why the Trent powered 787 are having reliability problems. But it denonstrates how easy GE can change the core on the GEnx.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 08, 2020 9:47 am

Revelation wrote:
I think the best study of what the 767X might be was from October, so only 6 months ago, but pre-covid and pre-Calhoun:

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 57.article

Given it's from FlightGlobal I'm confident they have some actual sources steering them in the right direction, as opposed to internet spitballing.

And yes it does say longer gear will be included:

So we speak of a medium range freighter.
Memphis to San Francisco: 1570 nm
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 08, 2020 11:48 am

Revelation wrote:
And yes it does say longer gear will be included:

Though it didn't say that the gear would be new...only 'modified'. This surfaced just in time for a fresh look from another angle..... :wink2:




Sokes wrote:
So we speak of a medium range freighter.
Memphis to San Francisco: 1570 nm
Memphis to New York: 837 nm

Both are a rather 'short' definition of "medium range" by today's standards. TCON at least would be more like it, i.e. SFO-JFK...with TATL as the 'sweet spot'.....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SFO-JFK-LHR&DU=nm
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Fri May 08, 2020 1:51 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Revelation wrote:
And yes it does say longer gear will be included:

Though it didn't say that the gear would be new...only 'modified'.

Fair enough. I think I read in some other article the -400 gear was taller.

Devilfish wrote:
Sokes wrote:
So we speak of a medium range freighter.
Memphis to San Francisco: 1570 nm
Memphis to New York: 837 nm

Both are a rather 'short' definition of "medium range" by today's standards. TCON at least would be more like it, i.e. SFO-JFK...with TATL as the 'sweet spot'.....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SFO-JFK-LHR&DU=nm

If we are talking about the FlightGlobal version of 767-X we would not end up with such short range, and such range would not be sufficient for a wide body freighter so it's a non-starter.

It's another challenge for the 767-NMA proposal people here have: the freighter wants the range, the pax model wants to sacrifice range to get economy, yet the freighter has the most promising market so it'll have the priority.

The freighter will be easy to do using things already in Boeing's and GE's parts bin, the pax model will need a lot of regression to stuff no longer made or redesign of existing stuff to address a less certain market so it's pretty doubtful we'll see it IMO.

Regardless of what the brochure said, early A330F were said to be challenged to do TATL runs in freighter operation and this was said to have held it back a lot.

Now that A330 has had several MTOW bumps and the center fuel tank is enabled this should no longer be the case, but the market opportunity seems to have been missed.

We were told on this forum that Airbus was protecting the A350's market position till it got itself established, but perhaps these days Airbus wishes they had enhanced the A330 earlier. Maybe they did not have the engineering resources to do it along side other tasks earlier in the 00s.
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