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jeffrey0032j
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:05 am

VSMUT wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
I honestly expect A330P2Fs to take the lions share of the market, not new build freighters.

Unless it can cross an ocean at/near max payload (which it's doubtful it'll be able to) then that's unlikely.

Best it can hope for at that point is intra-Asian freight; but the A330F hasn't been a stellar seller at all there either.


A 767 can't cross the Atlantic at full payload either, but that doesn't prevent it from somehow being the hottest cargo plane of A.net.

Boeing built a lot of 777Fs and has a fair bunch still to go. These will last easily 15-25 years. That will cover the TATL market.

jeffrey0032j wrote:
That would easily be crushed by Boeing if they decide to do a 787 BCF, which is a more capable plane. What we know is that Boeing has designed the 787's cabling such that there is a provision for a cargo door to be cut.


A new build 787 is phenomenally expensive, it would suffer like the A330-200F. Secondhand 787 conversions won't happen until 787s start getting replaced by airlines en masse, realistically not until a 787NG has been around for a while.

The reason why the 767 is in high demand and the A330 is not for the cargo market is because the 767 is a smaller plane, meaning cargo consolidators like FedEx and UPS can fit in more planes on the ramp. Remember that cargo consolidators lease land from the airport, and every inch of the real estate has to be efficiently used, and the nightly bank of flights is when this gets critical. Whereas for a pax carrier, they may prefer flexibility in terms of size to suit different types of planes for different pax demand at different times of the day.

As for the 787, its a maturing product, and I am guessing that a BCF will be available in the next few years. They can work on the first lot of frames as these are slightly less desirable due to additional weight.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:28 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
The reason why the 767 is in high demand and the A330 is not for the cargo market is because the 767 is a smaller plane, meaning cargo consolidators like FedEx and UPS can fit in more planes on the ramp.


The 767 is popular because it is cheap, not because of its size.


LAX772LR wrote:
But it's not like you need to take anyone's word for it... we could let the myriads of A330Fs out there speak. ;)


I did specifically say in the future. But you can't deny that it is gathering pace, they are already up to 10 aircraft converted or undergoing conversion, 6 just within the last year. For a single conversion program that is still gathering pace, in the face of competition from cheap 767s, that's not nothing.

They recently inducted a 10 year old ex-Singapore A330, so it isn't just old bangers any more.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:46 am

Actually a lot of the processing facilities are limited by the wing span of the planes.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:56 am

VSMUT wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The reason why the 767 is in high demand and the A330 is not for the cargo market is because the 767 is a smaller plane, meaning cargo consolidators like FedEx and UPS can fit in more planes on the ramp.


The 767 is popular because it is cheap, not because of its size.


LAX772LR wrote:
But it's not like you need to take anyone's word for it... we could let the myriads of A330Fs out there speak. ;)


I did specifically say in the future. But you can't deny that it is gathering pace, they are already up to 10 aircraft converted or undergoing conversion, 6 just within the last year. For a single conversion program that is still gathering pace, in the face of competition from cheap 767s, that's not nothing.

They recently inducted a 10 year old ex-Singapore A330, so it isn't just old bangers any more.

The A330F and P2F program has been on offer for quite a number of years, it is not gathering pace after the initial flurry of activity. 10 frames is really not a great achievement for what is an established pax airframe. 767s are cheaper than A330s, but are not as cheap as they could be, due to the high freighter demand.

The other thing working against Airbus frames in the cargo market is the contour of the fuselage on the main deck. Not ideal for pallet stacking (shaping) and transfer when more than 90% of the fleet is Boeing. Pallets will need to be restacked when transferring from the minority Airbus types to the majority Boeing types and vice versa.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:51 am

VSMUT wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The reason why the 767 is in high demand and the A330 is not for the cargo market is because the 767 is a smaller plane, meaning cargo consolidators like FedEx and UPS can fit in more planes on the ramp.


The 767 is popular because it is cheap, not because of its size.


Cheap by its size...
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Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 am

A few weeks ago,
I said that the 2028-2030 period would be the time when the NMA will be operational. There will be 2-sizes aircraft because the market will become more precise and there will be a defragmentation phenomenon for the future.

The 757 + / 767X Combo is the right candidate for the next 20-30 years (2050-2060 and beyond).

We also know Boeing will reform the piloting. D. Calhoun has already expressed it. The 757, 767, 777 and 787 rely on 40 years of safety and reliability including the cockpit philosophy.

Today, there is nothing to say that this reform does not indicate the contrary but in reality D. Calhoun, prepares the general public and the industry to travel without pilot!

I said the brand new 757 + / 767X Game Changer will be more efficient than any other Middle Of Market and more efficient than any other Aircraft.

This drastic advantage will allow considerable weight gain and space saving for an additional seating row.

This "virtuous circle" will be very catching and will transform the travel market.
The two seats for cabin crew would be installed at the very front of the cockpit in the manner of a small rest area with a view of the landscape and a device for communication with the pilot at the piloting center on the ground.
This 2028-2030 deadline coincides with the ICAO standards.

As I said before, the Leap-X scal-up for the 757 + / + F and GE9-X scal-down for the 767-X / X-F would most easily meet ICAO standards. The 777-8F would also be the right candidate just to meet this standard for the 777-F (-200LR) remplacement.

All the pawns are put in place for a launch in 2022, a pre-COVID crisis opportunity for the first model and derivative.
Surely the 757+, then 2023 for the 757+Strech derivative, the 767-X, and the 777-8F. 2026 will see the launch of the 757+ ER derivative to fly 8 hours
while the 757+Strech ER will be launched in 2028, it will transporting 20% more passengers than the competition

These two all-new light twin engines will be made up of a brand new generation CFRP above the efficient 787's / 777-X's due to the progress and lessons learned during studies carried out in wind tunnels over 15 years ago ...

Regards
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:00 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Today, there is nothing to say that this reform does not indicate the contrary but in reality D. Calhoun, prepares the general public and the industry to travel without pilot!


You're still banging that drum in an orchestra of one. :rotfl:

Today there is nothing that Calhoun has said that in the slightest suggests Boeing's next plane will be a one-pilot plane, let alone pilotless.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:03 am

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Today, there is nothing to say that this reform does not indicate the contrary but in reality D. Calhoun, prepares the general public and the industry to travel without pilot!


You're still banging that drum in an orchestra of one. :rotfl:

Today there is nothing that Calhoun has said that in the slightest suggests Boeing's next plane will be a one-pilot plane, let alone pilotless.

Does FSA stand for Future supplementary airman, if it doesn’t then we can logically conclude that there will be the only 1 pilot.

BA-ZING!!!!!!

Fred


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LucaDiMontanari
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:53 am

Checklist787 wrote:
We also know Boeing will reform the piloting. D. Calhoun has already expressed it. The 757, 767, 777 and 787 rely on 40 years of safety and reliability including the cockpit philosophy.

Today, there is nothing to say that this reform does not indicate the contrary but in reality D. Calhoun, prepares the general public and the industry to travel without pilot!


This is in fact an interesting question. Not everything the OEM's or the airlines want to build is always a good idea, if considered closely enough. I my opinion, flying without pilots (or even just single pilot operations in commercial operations - we are not talking about Cessnas) is a stupid idea. There is always an equilibrium between costs and complexity and I am pretty sure that the thing you call "40 years old technology" is exactly, because we are at this point.

Why did we get rid of the Navigator? All they did (simplified, for sure) were taking measurements, do calculations and draw lines on maps to finally hand them over to the pilots. Lots of skills and high level of training for things a computer is much better suited. Basically the same applies to the flight engineer. And even for today's pilots, as there is much of automatization already in place. But at some point you are at a tipping point, where less humans means removing slices from the swiss cheese model, while the added complexity (for remote control, etc.) means drilling additional holes in the remaining slices, just to safe costs (yes B737MAX, I'm also looking at you!)

I've tried to do a small graph to show what I am talking about. It is neither to scale nor even remotely scientific or based on real numbers, but just to get an idea. And please forget about the number 101% - Excel wasn't ever and will never be my friend :tired:

Image

So, at some point costs and risks are again increasing with higher technology level, while not being saver anymore. We have to aim the point where the two lines meet and not head to the right side, just because we can. And I am pretty sure, we are already in the close vicinity of the crossing. There is one thing we have to keep in mind: computers are dumb. They can not cope with unexpected situations, as there is no such thing as AI (at least as long as we do not have self-conscious computers), there are just simulations looking like intelligence. We will encounter situations, where no programmer has gone ever before :biggrin: and yes, we will also run out of achievable technology regarding computers. Moore's law is coming to an end very soon, some say by around 2030, when it is no longer possible to create smaller integrated circuits due to some nasty quantum physics coming into effect. And when you need to add cryogenic cooling to your flight computers to work in superconductive environment, then a human pilot may pay of very quick...
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:07 pm

For a single or no pilot aircraft, there will absolutely have to be an ability for the plane to be remotely controlled/over ridden from the ground. That implies a wireless communication network AND it implies a requirement for absolute data security. As we see, day after day, wireless networks are often intermittent and unreliable in their ability to consistently maintain a solid connection between the host and the server in many, many different applications. We also see daily that existing "state of the art" data security measures are ROUTINELY breached. Until BOTH of those factors are completely overcome, it is my opinion that we will never have mainline airliners operated by single or no pilot systems. As for cargo, as long as they are flying aircraft that were designed for mainline use, the same will apply to them. Also, as long as they are flying aircraft that are capable of causing the same levels of destruction that we all witnessed twenty years ago, they will remain multi-pilot affairs until the first problems mentioned in this post are resolved.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:17 pm

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Today, there is nothing to say that this reform does not indicate the contrary but in reality D. Calhoun, prepares the general public and the industry to travel without pilot!


You're still banging that drum in an orchestra of one. :rotfl:

Today there is nothing that Calhoun has said that in the slightest suggests Boeing's next plane will be a one-pilot plane, let alone pilotless.


Excuse me but if you prefer to say that Calhoun wants to change the philosophy of 40 years of experience of safety and security?
It is that you criticize something about the safety and the piloting philosophy of Boeing widebody? ...
And more specifically the 787 the latest aircaft designed ?

Is that really your interpretation? :duck:
Last edited by Checklist787 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:22 pm

No dratistic advantage with only one pilote and even less for passenger safety.

Pilot suicide, discomfort, food poisoning, blood alcohol level etc etc ...

Everything will be piloted on the ground!
(pilote center)
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Do it! "...
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:30 pm

Boeing and Airbus could build a pretty big parcel of freighters between now and 2028, enough to get well past the middle of the century.
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Aesma
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:09 pm

I will also be banging my drum but who is saying air cargo is going to continue as now or boom ? When all the talk is deglobalization ? Who's to say UPS or Fedex will even be allowed to operate in some countries in a few years, if the trade wars get really bad ?

While we'll still be discussing single pilot/no pilot on here, there will be fleets of trucks and cars on the road on autopilot...
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A 767 can't cross the Atlantic at full payload either, but that doesn't prevent it from somehow being the hottest cargo plane of A.net.

767F has a wingspan that can fit in far more common parking spaces on cargo aprons...


Oh come one, not that nonsense again, you are better than that. This isn't the USAF. Get some more real reasons. I don't recall a single airline complaining that the A330s and 787s that replaced the 767s weren't able to fit at the gates by the terminal, but when talking cargo aircraft parked on an open field of asphalt, it is suddenly a complete showstopper. Yeah, I don't think so either. Even constrained airports in Europe and Asia somehow always find space for bigger wingspans. UPS and FedEx replaced many MD-11s with respectively the 747-8F and 777-200F, but I didn't see you lining up to claim that airports couldn't take those two because of wingspan.


Let’s say FedEx or UPS fleets of 767 were A330F. How many less planes at a given instance could they fit? Now ting about how this cargo ops work; a large number of the flights are on the ground at the same time. One A330 isn’t that much bigger, but 10 of them take up much more space. How about at SDF where it is set up like a passenger terminal. They would run out of space faster there too. All you have to do is look at how many 767s these companies operate vs anything larger than it. Both of them still have most of their MD-11s and FedEx still has some DC-10s, but FedEx doesn’t even half half the number of retired DC/MD in 777F and UPS only has a small 747 fleet that is not growing. A small fleet of 747s or 777s isn’t that big of issue, an A330 fleet that eventually would supplant the 767 would be a tall order considering it is currently not a type any of them are set up for.

Their operation right now is set up to cater largely to the 767, 757, and A300; with the increase in population and increase in need for shipped goods, I don’t thing they will be finding extra ramp space without building it and that costs money. It has to be one contributory factor to why the A330F has failed so miserably so far. If Airbus really wanted to find success in cargo, they would probably have to revive and improve the A300 or A310.
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Stitch
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The 767 is popular because it is cheap, not because of its size.


It's popular because it fits in existing A300/MD-10 infrastructure and offers more payload and range than the A300 and has much better operating costs than the MD-10.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A 767 can't cross the Atlantic at full payload either, but that doesn't prevent it from somehow being the hottest cargo plane of A.net.

767F has a wingspan that can fit in far more common parking spaces on cargo aprons...


Oh come one, not that nonsense again, you are better than that. This isn't the USAF. Get some more real reasons. I don't recall a single airline complaining that the A330s and 787s that replaced the 767s weren't able to fit at the gates by the terminal, but when talking cargo aircraft parked on an open field of asphalt, it is suddenly a complete showstopper. Yeah, I don't think so either. Even constrained airports in Europe and Asia somehow always find space for bigger wingspans. UPS and FedEx replaced many MD-11s with respectively the 747-8F and 777-200F, but I didn't see you lining up to claim that airports couldn't take those two because of wingspan.

UPS plans its parking around Worldport. There is only so much wingspan the on-wing parking spaces can accommodate, MD-11 and smaller. So this is a primary driver in airplane analysis for UPS. I imagine similar with FedEx.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:33 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
I honestly expect A330P2Fs to take the lions share of the market, not new build freighters.

Unless it can cross an ocean at/near max payload (which it's doubtful it'll be able to) then that's unlikely.

Best it can hope for at that point is intra-Asian freight; but the A330F hasn't been a stellar seller at all there either.


LAX772LR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A 767 can't cross the Atlantic at full payload either, but that doesn't prevent it from somehow being the hottest cargo plane of A.net.

767F has a wingspan that can fit in far more common parking spaces on cargo aprons...


So range isn't such an issue then . . .
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:54 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Today, there is nothing to say that this reform does not indicate the contrary but in reality D. Calhoun, prepares the general public and the industry to travel without pilot!


You're still banging that drum in an orchestra of one. :rotfl:

Today there is nothing that Calhoun has said that in the slightest suggests Boeing's next plane will be a one-pilot plane, let alone pilotless.

Does FSA stand for Future supplementary airman, if it doesn’t then we can logically conclude that there will be the only 1 pilot.

BA-ZING!!!!!!

Fred


OMG, the wool has now been lifted from my eyes!

Checklist787 wrote:
Excuse me but if you prefer to say that Calhoun wants to change the philosophy of 40 years of experience of safety and security?
It is that you criticize something about the safety and the piloting philosophy of Boeing widebody? ...
And more specifically the 787 the latest aircaft designed ?

Is that really your interpretation?


I clearly said no such thing. I simply commented that you are the only person who interprets Calhoun's statements as suggesting that Boeing will build a pilotless commercial plane before the end of the decade. Just as you're the only person who believes FSA is a widebody.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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LAX772LR
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:16 pm

PW100 wrote:
So range isn't such an issue then . . .

Reason TATL range at max payload doesn't factor as much for the 767F is because (as stated above) it's versatile enough to perform the shorthaul jobs of the A310, AB6F, MD10, etc as/more efficiently than they do, using the same space/infrastructure that they do; yet can still do the TATL at reduced payload if desired.

A330F is a compromise on both for the operators.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:38 pm

This has got to be one of the most popular posts on A.net. I mean, not only does it cover 10 pages, but there are so many 757 and 767 fans, and everyone is anticipated. (I am too.)
 
VSMUT
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:30 pm

PW100 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
I honestly expect A330P2Fs to take the lions share of the market, not new build freighters.

Unless it can cross an ocean at/near max payload (which it's doubtful it'll be able to) then that's unlikely.

Best it can hope for at that point is intra-Asian freight; but the A330F hasn't been a stellar seller at all there either.


LAX772LR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A 767 can't cross the Atlantic at full payload either, but that doesn't prevent it from somehow being the hottest cargo plane of A.net.

767F has a wingspan that can fit in far more common parking spaces on cargo aprons...


So range isn't such an issue then . . .


Didn't you get the memo? The goalposts change depending on the argument. The aprons are too small and can't possibly under any imagination be expanded for an A330, trans atlantic range is an absolute must until it's a 767, and the 787BCF is a guaranteed winner the moment it is offered as a 767 replacement, despite having the same wingspan as an A330.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:15 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Didn't you get the memo?

That's what several posters have asked of you; it's not like you haven't received the same answer from a half-dozen sources, at least one of which is a professional in that specific area of the biz.

Fair to ignore them-- but it's rather illogical to ignore the airlines, who've made it almost painfully clear that they have near zilch interest in that platform, relative to just about every other option.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:52 am

VSMUT wrote:
PW100 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Unless it can cross an ocean at/near max payload (which it's doubtful it'll be able to) then that's unlikely.

Best it can hope for at that point is intra-Asian freight; but the A330F hasn't been a stellar seller at all there either.


LAX772LR wrote:
767F has a wingspan that can fit in far more common parking spaces on cargo aprons...


So range isn't such an issue then . . .


Didn't you get the memo? The goalposts change depending on the argument. The aprons are too small and can't possibly under any imagination be expanded for an A330, trans atlantic range is an absolute must until it's a 767, and the 787BCF is a guaranteed winner the moment it is offered as a 767 replacement, despite having the same wingspan as an A330.

Because the 787, if converted, would most likely make it across the ocean, putting it in a different market segment from the A330, plus it is more efficient. The fact that the most used temporarily converted pax planes during this coronavirus crisis are 77Ws and 787s says a lot about the A330 capabilities or lack of it.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:04 am

scbriml wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
scbriml wrote:

You're still banging that drum in an orchestra of one. :rotfl:

Today there is nothing that Calhoun has said that in the slightest suggests Boeing's next plane will be a one-pilot plane, let alone pilotless.

Does FSA stand for Future supplementary airman, if it doesn’t then we can logically conclude that there will be the only 1 pilot.

BA-ZING!!!!!!

Fred


OMG, the wool has now been lifted from my eyes!

Checklist787 wrote:
Excuse me but if you prefer to say that Calhoun wants to change the philosophy of 40 years of experience of safety and security?
It is that you criticize something about the safety and the piloting philosophy of Boeing widebody? ...
And more specifically the 787 the latest aircaft designed ?

Is that really your interpretation?


I clearly said no such thing. I simply commented that you are the only person who interprets Calhoun's statements as suggesting that Boeing will build a pilotless commercial plane before the end of the decade. Just as you're the only person who believes FSA is a widebody.


Stay cool

1. If you think that Calhoun meant that the 787 is faulty in the cockpit and the piloting, well you will be the only one to think it.

2. What Calhoun could really change since the cockpit and the philosophy have been working very well for the last 40 years?
It doesn't make sense not to understand that this would be a complete overhaul of the steering.
And that doesn't mean anything else!

3. It's my opinion based on current technologies experienced today, will be those of tomorrow.

To say otherwise or not include this perspective could be false...

4. The FSA was clearly shown as "not a narrowbody" when it echoed an aircraft that would carry more than 200 passengers. It has been shown as a real replacement for the 757, in Ocrobre 2019 for a few potential customers.

When you present a project, you present the one that seems "best" in a lot of area or criteria.

There were probably several fuselage widths in the drawing step out there.

Today we are talking about the 757+ concept, which seems to be this FSA in question.
What form/shape will it be? No one knows.
Will it be a long narrowbody aircraft?
It's not impossible...

If we are planning a launch for 2022 (tomorrow) and the work on the NMA hybrid fuselage concept (7-abreast) has not borne fruit, So this will tend to be something simpler like a narrowbody for example... :bigthumbsup:
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Do it! "...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:17 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Stay cool

1. If you think that Calhoun meant that the 787 is faulty in the cockpit and the piloting, well you will be the only one to think it.

2. What Calhoun could really change since the cockpit and the philosophy have been working very well for the last 40 years?
It doesn't make sense not to understand that this would be a complete overhaul of the steering.
And that doesn't mean anything else!

3. It's my opinion based on current technologies experienced today, will be those of tomorrow.

To say otherwise or not include this perspective could be false...

4. The FSA was clearly shown as "not a narrowbody" when it echoed an aircraft that would carry more than 200 passengers. It has been shown as a real replacement for the 757, in Ocrobre 2019 for a few potential customers.

When you present a project, you present the one that seems "best" in a lot of area or criteria.

There were probably several fuselage widths in the drawing step out there.

Today we are talking about the 757+ concept, which seems to be this FSA in question.
What form/shape will it be? No one knows.
Will it be a long narrowbody aircraft?
It's not impossible...

If we are planning a launch for 2022 (tomorrow) and the work on the NMA hybrid fuselage concept (7-abreast) has not borne fruit, So this will tend to be something simpler like a narrowbody for example... :bigthumbsup:


I'm as cool as a cucumber.

I never said any of the things you think I said. Read what people write, not what you think they say.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:09 am

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Stay cool

1. If you think that Calhoun meant that the 787 is faulty in the cockpit and the piloting, well you will be the only one to think it.

2. What Calhoun could really change since the cockpit and the philosophy have been working very well for the last 40 years?
It doesn't make sense not to understand that this would be a complete overhaul of the steering.
And that doesn't mean anything else!

3. It's my opinion based on current technologies experienced today, will be those of tomorrow.

To say otherwise or not include this perspective could be false...

4. The FSA was clearly shown as "not a narrowbody" when it echoed an aircraft that would carry more than 200 passengers. It has been shown as a real replacement for the 757, in Ocrobre 2019 for a few potential customers.

When you present a project, you present the one that seems "best" in a lot of area or criteria.

There were probably several fuselage widths in the drawing step out there.

Today we are talking about the 757+ concept, which seems to be this FSA in question.
What form/shape will it be? No one knows.
Will it be a long narrowbody aircraft?
It's not impossible...

If we are planning a launch for 2022 (tomorrow) and the work on the NMA hybrid fuselage concept (7-abreast) has not borne fruit, So this will tend to be something simpler like a narrowbody for example... :bigthumbsup:


I'm as cool as a cucumber.

I never said any of the things you think I said. Read what people write, not what you think they say.


Maybe it's time for you to share your thoughts with us on the words of Calhoun who clearly said that there would be a lot of change as he seems clearly questioning 40 years of philosophy of piloting the Boeings aircaft ...

Since you're cool as a cucumber, then can I get an answer on that.

What is your opinion on that? :)
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:02 am

Checklist787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Stay cool

1. If you think that Calhoun meant that the 787 is faulty in the cockpit and the piloting, well you will be the only one to think it.

2. What Calhoun could really change since the cockpit and the philosophy have been working very well for the last 40 years?
It doesn't make sense not to understand that this would be a complete overhaul of the steering.
And that doesn't mean anything else!

3. It's my opinion based on current technologies experienced today, will be those of tomorrow.

To say otherwise or not include this perspective could be false...

4. The FSA was clearly shown as "not a narrowbody" when it echoed an aircraft that would carry more than 200 passengers. It has been shown as a real replacement for the 757, in Ocrobre 2019 for a few potential customers.

When you present a project, you present the one that seems "best" in a lot of area or criteria.

There were probably several fuselage widths in the drawing step out there.

Today we are talking about the 757+ concept, which seems to be this FSA in question.
What form/shape will it be? No one knows.
Will it be a long narrowbody aircraft?
It's not impossible...

If we are planning a launch for 2022 (tomorrow) and the work on the NMA hybrid fuselage concept (7-abreast) has not borne fruit, So this will tend to be something simpler like a narrowbody for example... :bigthumbsup:


I'm as cool as a cucumber.

I never said any of the things you think I said. Read what people write, not what you think they say.


Maybe it's time for you to share your thoughts with us on the words of Calhoun who clearly said that there would be a lot of change as he seems clearly questioning 40 years of philosophy of piloting the Boeings aircaft ...

Since you're cool as a cucumber, then can I get an answer on that.

What is your opinion on that? :)


Can you provide a link to either a video, an audio recording, transcript or suitable article quoting Mr Calhoun in the context of what is being discussed. Without any such reference an opinion regarding the statement would hold as much relevance as suggesting it could be controlled by a slugs brain, I think that is maybe why your potentially valid statements are being ignored.

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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:44 am

For more than a decade Boeing has been trying to suppress all signals and incidents that their cockpit phylosophy has had it's best days. What still was good 20 years ago might not be good enough for 2040. Let alone what was good enough 50 years ago.

Research and reports addressing this topic (e.g. http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/hffaces.pdf) where pushed away when competition, costs & shareholder value became the overwhelming power drivers for design decisions. The FAA was forcefully "streamlined" by political opportunists (our way or the high way FAA re-authorizations). https://cms7.dot.gov/testimony/faa-reau ... on-process Folks that have retired / moved / keep their heads down until this blows over..

Calhoun doesn't have a new brain wave, authorities are telling him to change.

Calhoun says Boeing now realises the NMA’s design must center around the flight control system and how pilots interact with that system – a topic highlighted by the 737 Max crashes.

“We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” Calhoun says of NMA development. Design decisions related to “pilots flying airplanes” are “very important… for the regulator and for us to get our head around”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 96.article
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Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:00 am

keesje wrote:
For more than a decade Boeing has been trying to suppress all signals and incidents that their cockpit phylosophy has had it's best days. What still was good 20 years ago might not be good enough for 2040. Let alone what was good enough 50 years ago.

Research and reports addressing this topic (e.g. http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/hffaces.pdf) where pushed away when competition, costs & shareholder value became the overwhelming power drivers for design decisions. The FAA was forcefully "streamlined" by political opportunists (our way or the high way FAA re-authorizations). https://cms7.dot.gov/testimony/faa-reau ... on-process Folks that have retired / moved / keep their heads down until this blows over..

Calhoun doesn't have a new brain wave, authorities are telling him to change.

Calhoun says Boeing now realises the NMA’s design must center around the flight control system and how pilots interact with that system – a topic highlighted by the 737 Max crashes.

“We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” Calhoun says of NMA development. Design decisions related to “pilots flying airplanes” are “very important… for the regulator and for us to get our head around”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 96.article


Thanks for the links.

I think this is for everyone, Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, etc. etc.

My interpretation is that there will be a big change in the design of the cockpits in the near futur, and this will be operational from 2030.

I think revolutionizing cockpits will be the next new challenges of this century
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:24 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
For a single or no pilot aircraft, there will absolutely have to be an ability for the plane to be remotely controlled/over ridden from the ground. That implies a wireless communication network AND it implies a requirement for absolute data security. As we see, day after day, wireless networks are often intermittent and unreliable in their ability to consistently maintain a solid connection between the host and the server in many, many different applications. We also see daily that existing "state of the art" data security measures are ROUTINELY breached. Until BOTH of those factors are completely overcome, it is my opinion that we will never have mainline airliners operated by single or no pilot systems. As for cargo, as long as they are flying aircraft that were designed for mainline use, the same will apply to them. Also, as long as they are flying aircraft that are capable of causing the same levels of destruction that we all witnessed twenty years ago, they will remain multi-pilot affairs until the first problems mentioned in this post are resolved.


Using a rocket launch as an example, everything is automated. The ascent can be pre programmed because it must follow an exact course and all other air traffic is cleared away. I'm pretty sure the only things controlled wirelessly from the ground from launch through orbit insertion are the range safety system (aka self destruct) and the ability to trigger the launch escape system if manned and equipped.

An airliner would need much more capability at at least as high (if not higher) security. It would have to be on the level of a military UAV but probably better. If a UAV crashes it's not a huge deal outside of the cost as long as it doesn't kill someone on the ground (unintentionally).
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:59 pm

planecane wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
For a single or no pilot aircraft, there will absolutely have to be an ability for the plane to be remotely controlled/over ridden from the ground. That implies a wireless communication network AND it implies a requirement for absolute data security. As we see, day after day, wireless networks are often intermittent and unreliable in their ability to consistently maintain a solid connection between the host and the server in many, many different applications. We also see daily that existing "state of the art" data security measures are ROUTINELY breached. Until BOTH of those factors are completely overcome, it is my opinion that we will never have mainline airliners operated by single or no pilot systems. As for cargo, as long as they are flying aircraft that were designed for mainline use, the same will apply to them. Also, as long as they are flying aircraft that are capable of causing the same levels of destruction that we all witnessed twenty years ago, they will remain multi-pilot affairs until the first problems mentioned in this post are resolved.


Using a rocket launch as an example, everything is automated. The ascent can be pre programmed because it must follow an exact course and all other air traffic is cleared away. I'm pretty sure the only things controlled wirelessly from the ground from launch through orbit insertion are the range safety system (aka self destruct) and the ability to trigger the launch escape system if manned and equipped.

An airliner would need much more capability at at least as high (if not higher) security. It would have to be on the level of a military UAV but probably better. If a UAV crashes it's not a huge deal outside of the cost as long as it doesn't kill someone on the ground (unintentionally).


After seeing one of our most secret UAVs (RQ-170) get jacked by Iran, I would never trust a commercial airliners’ datalink security. Especially on a larger worldwide scale, far too many people would have the knowledge about the datalink. I think COMSEC would be a nightmare.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:07 pm

There are thousands of 737NG flights every day and god knows how many tens or scores of millions since the frame entered service and the pilots seem perfectly capable of operating them safely with the cockpits installed.

MAX's issue was not the cockpit or even the cockpit design philosophy. It was incorporating flight-control changes without the knowledge of the pilots. Do that on an A350 or a 787 and you're just as likely to encounter issues and just because it's fly-by-wire, that doesn't mean the computers will save you as we have seen A320s and A330s go down or almost go down due to the pilot's not understanding the FBW flight-envelope protection system interactions.

Regardless of the cockpit design or philosophy, pilots are humans and if you overwhelm them with information, they are more likely to make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes result in hull losses and injury and death. And that's happened with most every, if not every, commercial aerospace OEM through history.

So Airbus needs to work just as hard as Boeing on not overwhelming the pilots and instead presenting them with what they need to know when they need to know it. As does Embraer. And Mitsubishi. And Sukhoi. And COMAC. And...

Hopefully multi-discipline groups like JTAR can push this forward for all OEMs so that all commercial airliners are safer. After all, if it is just Boeing who benefits from this knowledge, that's a disservice to every passenger and crew member on another OEM airframe.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:27 pm

keesje wrote:
For more than a decade Boeing has been trying to suppress all signals and incidents that their cockpit phylosophy has had it's best days. What still was good 20 years ago might not be good enough for 2040. Let alone what was good enough 50 years ago.

Research and reports addressing this topic (e.g. http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/hffaces.pdf) where pushed away when competition, costs & shareholder value became the overwhelming power drivers for design decisions. The FAA was forcefully "streamlined" by political opportunists (our way or the high way FAA re-authorizations). https://cms7.dot.gov/testimony/faa-reau ... on-process Folks that have retired / moved / keep their heads down until this blows over..

Calhoun doesn't have a new brain wave, authorities are telling him to change.

Calhoun says Boeing now realises the NMA’s design must center around the flight control system and how pilots interact with that system – a topic highlighted by the 737 Max crashes.

“We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” Calhoun says of NMA development. Design decisions related to “pilots flying airplanes” are “very important… for the regulator and for us to get our head around”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 96.article


Is Airbus 'fly by wire' complete enough to update to the upcoming requirement for fuller automation, and providing simplified pilot information? The 737 does not and cannot. I assume 777/787 is as up to date as Airbus. I assume Boeing needs a more substantial update of software than Airbus, but both are facing some major needs. What does this mean for commercial versions of any update to the 767?
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:07 pm

Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think the 'B757+' name isn't that descriptive. I think it's more likely to be a 762 sized airplane. This is going to add value beyond A32x family members. Yet it's not going to have range like A330/787 so it'll be lighter.


It arguably could, though. The 767-200ER had an MZFW of 5000nm, which is there with the A330-900. Add a better wing and better engines, the SFC reductions should allow range in the neighborhood of 5500nm which is there with the 787-8.


ewt340 wrote:
Adding 30 passengers to B767-300ER would bring it's capacity way closer to B767-400ER. And B767-400ER have almost the exact capacity to B787-8. For passengers variants, wouldn't it be better to just go with B787-8?


The 787-8 is effectively a niche model within the family, sharing surprisingly little with the 787-9 and 787-10 and therefore has not seen per-unit cost reductions as quickly as the 787-9 and 787-10 have. That being said, for operators of the entire 787 family, there are economies of scale and I really only see the 767-400ERXneo appealing to existing 767 operators, of which there are precious little (and the largest are the US3 whose appetite over the next decade about buying a new plane in the hundreds is suspect, IMO).


788 has been based upon 789 since LN 981. It was a major selling point, and the change allowed Boeing to undercut the A338.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:57 pm

767333ER wrote:
Their operation right now is set up to cater largely to the 767, 757, and A300; with the increase in population and increase in need for shipped goods, I don’t thing they will be finding extra ramp space without building it and that costs money. It has to be one contributory factor to why the A330F has failed so miserably so far. If Airbus really wanted to find success in cargo, they would probably have to revive and improve the A300 or A310.
Yes I think so, too. The A332F is just too heavy for the parcel companies. These prefer volume over max. payload. So the A332F would be a really bad choice, as it´s cargo department is only a bit larger compared to the A300, but the A332 is ~60,000 lb heavier. P2F A333 would be a bit better, but still worse than B767F or A300F. The A332 is just too big. There is no need to have tanks for 240,000lb if one only need to fly 1000-2000 miles. So in short: The A332F is too big for short/medium distances and too little for long range flights, cause there we have the B777F or 747F.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:09 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
keesje wrote:
For more than a decade Boeing has been trying to suppress all signals and incidents that their cockpit phylosophy has had it's best days. What still was good 20 years ago might not be good enough for 2040. Let alone what was good enough 50 years ago.

Research and reports addressing this topic (e.g. http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/hffaces.pdf) where pushed away when competition, costs & shareholder value became the overwhelming power drivers for design decisions. The FAA was forcefully "streamlined" by political opportunists (our way or the high way FAA re-authorizations). https://cms7.dot.gov/testimony/faa-reau ... on-process Folks that have retired / moved / keep their heads down until this blows over..

Calhoun doesn't have a new brain wave, authorities are telling him to change.

Calhoun says Boeing now realises the NMA’s design must center around the flight control system and how pilots interact with that system – a topic highlighted by the 737 Max crashes.

“We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” Calhoun says of NMA development. Design decisions related to “pilots flying airplanes” are “very important… for the regulator and for us to get our head around”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 96.article


Is Airbus 'fly by wire' complete enough to update to the upcoming requirement for fuller automation, and providing simplified pilot information? The 737 does not and cannot. I assume 777/787 is as up to date as Airbus. I assume Boeing needs a more substantial update of software than Airbus, but both are facing some major needs. What does this mean for commercial versions of any update to the 767?

I may be over simplifying what you wrote but I may agree with you here, the Digital FBW aircraft already have a suitably robust system for taking the aircraft where it is directed all that is needed is a suitably robust way of deciding/determining that direction, if that second part is solved then is it effectively solved for all FBW aircraft?

Fred


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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:13 am

For most of my life, people said, "But what happens if the computer fails?"

Today's youth will be saying 30 or 40 years from now, "Wait a second, there was a time when an airplane would just let a human fly it into a mountain?"

The questions are how do we make the transition, and when? FBW aircraft with hard limits have already reduced pilots to just another voter in the circuit. CPDLC coupled to the FMS with an "accept" button have effectively given route, altitude, and speed guidance to ATC. Unforeseen mechanical and structural failures are increasingly rare. Pilots have a hard time staying awake and alert....complacency is already an issue, translation: loss of hand flying skills is already an issue. So airlines have upset recovery courses to build pilot confidence and the result is AA 587.

Subsonic aerodynamics is dead, almost all efficiency gains now come from engine technology. Barring non-standard airframe configurations (flying wings?), the 757/767 with new engines and modern cockpit can hardly be improved upon for the short term.

New engines will drastically change the 767 imho, but the PW powered 757 was an efficiency marvel for 1983, and even now is quite competitive on a per seat basis, notwithstanding the usual PW reliability issues.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:57 am

Qf648 wrote:
Okay

So, for all the rumours of a pilotless airplane, how many would get on it? At what price/room point do you get on it? If you got the choice.

Unless its like drastically cheaper, or they give me 35" of seat pitch i'm not interested


I believe there is only 1 person on this tread claiming that a pilotless aircraft is on the horizon. No one else is expecting that capability within several decades.

What many do accept is that we may get a cockpit that would allow single pilot operation in the relatively near future (say within a decade of its introduction).

I would foresee that single pilot operations would be feasible for relatively short flights (under 5 hours), and are most likely to start with flights under 2 hours. I do not see it as an option for long distance intercontinental flying (trips > 8 hours flight time)

Even for short flights; this will require an ability for remote control of the aircraft in certain situations; an ability that currently does not exist outside of military drones. There are many issues that have to be resolved for that to occur regarding protocols and data/control security. I at least believe that those issues can be resolved adequately within 10 to 20 years from now.

I would expect that the next generation cockpit design that Boeing is working on will incorporate the basic capacity and structure to allow for remote control in the future, even if that capability is not yet ready to be implemented.

Most important is to be able to handle the data flow to the pilots on what is wrong with the aircraft and things to do to correct and recover (and when to revert to totally manual control with just pitch and power as the starting point, perhaps with a basic stall recovery procedure as part of that). That is my sense of where the regulators are asking for better than today's existing technology. All aircraft companies have had aircraft crash because the pilots were either overwhelmed or responded incorrectly to the situation because they did not understand the situation. My understanding is that the goal or the next generation cockpit is to greatly reduce those occurrences. Bonus is to build in the structure for future single pilot operation.

I don't believe anyone is talking about totally autonomous aircraft at this point, except for a single person in this thread.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:48 pm

Maybe take a look at this systems that is being certified/ offered today..
It changes your opinion on where we are on autonomous flight.
Garmin has been secretly working on it for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ruFmgTpqA

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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:06 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I assume 777/787 is as up to date as Airbus. I assume Boeing needs a more substantial update of software than Airbus


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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:16 pm

Qf648 wrote:
Okay

So, for all the rumours of a pilotless airplane, how many would get on it? At what price/room point do you get on it? If you got the choice.

Unless its like drastically cheaper, or they give me 35" of seat pitch i'm not interested


I think the airlines will bait the passenger with 35 " pitch comfort. After a few years they will deliver 29"-30 "pitch to be competitive.
It is the airlines that have destroyed comfort and Ryan Air has been the trigger since 20 years...
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:25 pm

What is wrong with Ryanair? At least they have relatively young aircraft and cheap average prices.
Tight seating has been known before.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:44 pm

2175301 wrote:

What many do accept is that we may get a cockpit that would allow single pilot operation in the relatively near future (say within a decade of its introduction).


It is no more acceptable.
A single pilot is even less relevant. Imagine the dangers.

Pilot suicide, pilot discomfort, pilot food poisoning, pilot blood alcohol level. Etc., etc.

ALL these cases have already been observed in the past.
Either two pilots or zero on the aircaft


2175301 wrote:
I would foresee that single pilot operations would be feasible for relatively short flights (under 5 hours), and are most likely to start with flights under 2 hours. I do not see it as an option for long distance intercontinental flying (trips > 8 hours flight time)


2 hours or 8 hours be not guarantee more security...

2175301 wrote:
Even for short flights; this will require an ability for remote control of the aircraft in certain situations; an ability that currently does not exist outside of military drones.


You are exposing a problem that does not exist IMHO
There is nothing which is in the military domain preventing going towards the civilian domain.
Drones have been flown for more than 20 years now...

2175301 wrote:
There are many issues that have to be resolved for that to occur regarding protocols and data/control security. I at least believe that those issues can be resolved adequately within 10 to 20 years from now.


2030-2040 it's 10 to 20 years from now...
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:52 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
2175301 wrote:

What many do accept is that we may get a cockpit that would allow single pilot operation in the relatively near future (say within a decade of its introduction).


It is no more acceptable.
A single pilot is even less relevant. Imagine the dangers.

Pilot suicide, pilot discomfort, pilot food poisoning, pilot blood alcohol level. Etc., etc.

ALL these cases have already been observed in the past.
Either two pilots or zero on the aircaft

Correct, there are risks although not frequent ones. Now consider the rewards: removing the cost of half of the pilots of commercial airliners. Not just their salaries, but their benefits, their costs on trips away from base, their training costs, etc. These costs certainly are frequent ones. I don't see anything in the airliner road map that could change the cost equation as much as this, do you?
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:41 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
2175301 wrote:

What many do accept is that we may get a cockpit that would allow single pilot operation in the relatively near future (say within a decade of its introduction).


It is no more acceptable.
A single pilot is even less relevant. Imagine the dangers.

Pilot suicide, pilot discomfort, pilot food poisoning, pilot blood alcohol level. Etc., etc.

ALL these cases have already been observed in the past.
Either two pilots or zero on the aircaft

2175301 wrote:
I would foresee that single pilot operations would be feasible for relatively short flights (under 5 hours), and are most likely to start with flights under 2 hours. I do not see it as an option for long distance intercontinental flying (trips > 8 hours flight time)


2 hours or 8 hours be not guarantee more security...


I'm addressing your response in 2 parts:

Revelation is correct about the potential cost savings of a 1 pilot aircraft.

All cases of Pilot Suicide observed has occurred on 2 cockpit crew aircraft. I don't believe that reducing to a single pilot is actually going to change those numbers by much because these pilots have figured out ways of taking the other pilot out of the picture already. Sorry, but some risks are always there. Fortunately, the percentages of this occurrence is rather low.

As for the others; the very reason for starting with short flights is that most other pilot problems take time to develop (with the exception of an acute heart attack or an brain aneurysm). You feel just fine... a few hours later you feel sick, or at least know something is not right. Lets get some practical experience and figure out what works before extending the hours for single pilot operation. The alcohol issue can easily be solved by a requirement for a breathalyzer test prior to a flight for a single pilot aircraft (and perhaps we should have it now).

The ability for someone to take remote control of an aircraft covers almost all of the other rare other cases (except pilot suicide as it's likely that the pilot will interfere with any attempt at remote control).
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:01 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Even for short flights; this will require an ability for remote control of the aircraft in certain situations; an ability that currently does not exist outside of military drones.


You are exposing a problem that does not exist IMHO
There is nothing which is in the military domain preventing going towards the civilian domain.
Drones have been flown for more than 20 years now...

2175301 wrote:
There are many issues that have to be resolved for that to occur regarding protocols and data/control security. I at least believe that those issues can be resolved adequately within 10 to 20 years from now.


2030-2040 it's 10 to 20 years from now...


To the best of my knowledge there does not not currently exist a military flight control system that allows remote control of an aircraft that is designed for in-seat aircraft pilots to fly it.

Yes, there are drones; and have been for a couple decades. However, there have also been cases where drones have been taken over by other countries. Everyone should know of the Iran case where Iran stole one of our advanced drones. My contacts in the military tell me that there have been several other cases, not as severe.

So, we are actually discussing designing something that does not yet exist. Taking an internal pilot control aircraft, and designing a successful interface for remote control - and the ability to potentially activate the remote control from outside of the aircraft with the pilot incapacitate, or nearly incapacitated, in the seat.

Then we need to have a better data network and better security than the currently exist to prevent "bad actors" from trying to crash a commercial aircraft.

It is my understanding that the US Military has invested many billions into their communication network and ground stations to handle a few hundred drones at any one time (and I understand that 1 ground station may actually be operating several drones at once). We are likely talking a 10-100X investment to support a civilian aircraft remote control option.

Now I believe that this all can be done... and will in fact be done. But, its not as simple as just adopting an existing military option - because there is no existing military option for remote control of piloted aircraft that I am aware of; and the industry is not going to just transition to autonomous aircraft from piloted aircraft without a long transition period of seeing that single pilot control with remote control works well.

An "Auto-land" feature is something that could be easily incorporated... for situations where the aircraft is in good enough condition to be able to fly to a suitably advanced airfield that can support auto-land; and even a Flight Attendant - or a passenger could activate it from within the aircraft, if necessary.

However, if there are problems with the aircraft... full remote control would allow relatively safe landing of landable aircraft in most other situations (not all situations).

This will all take time; and it will be overall safer than the current and historic options. We're just a ways out from there yet.

Have a great day,
 
2175301
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:29 pm

As another follow-up on Drone Technology:

I am unaware of any published statistics by any military.

However, my contacts tell me that the crash rate of drones is "acceptable" to the military; but, would not be acceptable for any kind of passenger or piloted aircraft.

So, the system is not as good as some people would have you believe.

Have a great day,
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:50 pm

2175301 wrote:
This will all take time; and it will be overall safer than the current and historic options. We're just a ways out from there yet.

I agree with what you wrote.

I think we're quite a ways out, yet Boeing should realize their competition is already thinking in terms of autonomy and single pilot operation:

https://www.flightglobal.com/systems-an ... 05.article

https://www.airbus.com/innovation/futur ... onomy.html

It's there in black and white:

Disruptive Cockpit (DISCO): This enhanced cockpit is designed to enable single-pilot operations for new aircraft.

Courtesy of EU taxpayers: https://www.cleansky.eu/european-aviati ... r-aircraft

I can imagine the pilot's union will find it disruptive.

Since a picture is worth a thousand words:

Image

If you're at Boeing and designing an all-new cockpit now for the 2030s, you probably are sketching out how autonomy and remote control fit into the picture. You're probably not planning to implement it now, but you are probably designing the control inputs and outputs in a way that it wouldn't be hard to allow for remote control in the lifetime of the design.
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AAlaxfan
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Is this the pilot-less airliner thread? I thought it was a 757+/ 767x thread.
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