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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
PW100 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Unless it can cross an ocean at/near max payload (which it's doubtful it'll be able to) then that's unlikely.

Best it can hope for at that point is intra-Asian freight; but the A330F hasn't been a stellar seller at all there either.


LAX772LR wrote:
767F has a wingspan that can fit in far more common parking spaces on cargo aprons...


So range isn't such an issue then . . .


Didn't you get the memo? The goalposts change depending on the argument. The aprons are too small and can't possibly under any imagination be expanded for an A330, trans atlantic range is an absolute must until it's a 767, and the 787BCF is a guaranteed winner the moment it is offered as a 767 replacement, despite having the same wingspan as an A330.


I don’t think it is that hard to understand.

There are 125 gates at Louisville For UPS. Everyone of them is used. Wider gates either reduces the number of gates or forces expansion. That’s a problem since the airport is space constrained.

Memphis is better, but the problem is that when airplanes are spread further apart on the airfield, it takes longer to move cargo long distances. It already takes a significant amount of time to move cargo to the gates that hold 777s. Slowing down the sort isn’t acceptable.

Wingspan is critical for freighters. A330s and 777s don’t work well for the domestic sort. For the overnight sort, speed is crucial, which requires airplanes parked closely together. Real estate is valuable since every plane is on the ground at the same time. This is why MD11s and 767s are so popular.

International isn’t as much of a problem. Airplanes flying long haul are on the ground much longer and there is time to process the cargo since it has to clear customs.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:52 pm

jagraham wrote:
788 has been based upon 789 since LN 981.

IINM, only the rear fuselage and some of the empennage.

Most of what's before the wing is still unique to the 788.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
2175301
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:49 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
Is this the pilot-less airliner thread? I thought it was a 757+/ 767x thread.


A legitimate part of the discussion is a new cockpit to reduce pilot workload and other features. That because the evidence is that what stopped the NMA project from moving forward was 1st that Boeing would have to come up with a better cockpit based on the fallout from the 737Max investigations and related Joint Technical Group report on issues with cockpit design and pilot workload (and not unique to Boeing). The 2nd reported issue to stop the NMA program was that the current CEO felt that the "minimal cargo" choice was incorrect.

Thus, in my opinion its fair game to discuss what kind of cockpit technology will come out of any cleansheet design. It just so happens that at least one member thinks that Boeing should be moving to pilotless remote controlled aircraft as the next step. I personally don't believe that we are near ready for that - and that's the discussion you were seeing.

Have a great day,
 
ewt340
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:09 am

AAlaxfan wrote:
Is this the pilot-less airliner thread? I thought it was a 757+/ 767x thread.


Same, There is more possibility in the next 10 years for B777-10X and A350-1100 than Single pilots operations.
 
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ADent
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:23 am

Yeah we aren’t getting single pilot in a Boeing until
self driving trucks are a regular thing and that emergency landing button well proven. Typically something disruptive cones from an upstart-maybe a Chinese RJ with AI autopilot.

I don’t see a market for a small wide body, but 757+ has some legs.

Now is the time to move. Keep the engineers busy and be ready to get this plane delivered before the next recession. The trick (besides all the technical/design issues) may be getting launch orders in the next couple of years while airlines aren’t really in an ordering mood.
 
planecane
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:34 am

2175301 wrote:
AAlaxfan wrote:
Is this the pilot-less airliner thread? I thought it was a 757+/ 767x thread.


A legitimate part of the discussion is a new cockpit to reduce pilot workload and other features. That because the evidence is that what stopped the NMA project from moving forward was 1st that Boeing would have to come up with a better cockpit based on the fallout from the 737Max investigations and related Joint Technical Group report on issues with cockpit design and pilot workload (and not unique to Boeing). The 2nd reported issue to stop the NMA program was that the current CEO felt that the "minimal cargo" choice was incorrect.

Thus, in my opinion its fair game to discuss what kind of cockpit technology will come out of any cleansheet design. It just so happens that at least one member thinks that Boeing should be moving to pilotless remote controlled aircraft as the next step. I personally don't believe that we are near ready for that - and that's the discussion you were seeing.

Have a great day,

That may have been the excuse for what stopped the NMA but it wasn't the reason. The reason was that they couldn't close the business case. All of a sudden a flight control system similar to the 777 and 787 was too complex for pilots and dangerous? I don't think so.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:11 pm

Remote and autonomous flight developments, in combination with FBW/flight envelope protection, pilot activity monitoring (PAM) and autoland, might relax cockpit requirements.

Maybe efficiency improvements by flying with 2 pilots instead of 3 on longer 757/'767 category flights, if the (single) berth is part off/ directly linked to the cockpit.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:11 pm

i hope the 757plus is an actual 757plus, not just the NMA with the name 757. What I mean by real 757 is the performance capabilities, etc. Let's see what happens
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:18 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
i hope the 757plus is an actual 757plus, not just the NMA with the name 757. What I mean by real 757 is the performance capabilities, etc. Let's see what happens

I would hope it had better performance then the 757, a slightly wider 3-3 fuselage and similar lengths and weights to the 757 with a wing of the same area but 43-44m span could see a range of 5000nm+.

Fred


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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:28 pm

Yeah, that's what I meant too. Let us all see and wait till Boeing makes a final move.
 
silentbob
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:50 pm

keesje wrote:
Remote and autonomous flight developments, in combination with FBW/flight envelope protection, pilot activity monitoring (PAM) and autoland, might relax cockpit requirements.

Maybe efficiency improvements by flying with 2 pilots instead of 3 on longer 757/'767 category flights, if the (single) berth is part off/ directly linked to the cockpit.

I think you're right that the first place we'll see automation is with augmented crews. You'll likely still run into concerns over one person on the flight deck if either is permitted to leave for rest purposes.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:25 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
i hope the 757plus is an actual 757plus, not just the NMA with the name 757. What I mean by real 757 is the performance capabilities, etc. Let's see what happens

I would hope it had better performance then the 757, a slightly wider 3-3 fuselage and similar lengths and weights to the 757 with a wing of the same area but 43-44m span could see a range of 5000nm+.

Fred


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I think that is a pretty obvious expectation. And if the 757 got a max treatment or an ER treatment could had done it by now. The original had legs out to 4000nm with 1970s technology and no ER treatment.
My only question however is weight. The original 757 is heavier than an A321. Not sure how they would get the performance of a 757 but reduce weight to compete with A321. But maybe a new wing and engine combo can get it done.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:14 am

Single pilot cockpits may not necessarily reduce pilot costs for airlines.

At the moment, with 2 pilots in the cockpit, there is shared/potential for shared responsibility and workload.

Duty periods and rest is calculated with this in mind.

Moving to single pilot cockpits/operations will necessitate a review of this aspect of the operation with greater rest periods possibly being required. More rest per pilot means more pilots to operate a certain number of flights per week, months, etc.

Will costs actually be significantly reduced to justify the move to a method of operation that the flying (and paying) public will have a hard time trusting?
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:22 am

MoKa777 wrote:
Single pilot cockpits may not necessarily reduce pilot costs for airlines.

At the moment, with 2 pilots in the cockpit, there is shared/potential for shared responsibility and workload.

Duty periods and rest is calculated with this in mind.

Moving to single pilot cockpits/operations will necessitate a review of this aspect of the operation with greater rest periods possibly being required. More rest per pilot means more pilots to operate a certain number of flights per week, months, etc.

Will costs actually be significantly reduced to justify the move to a method of operation that the flying (and paying) public will have a hard time trusting?



Yeah, that's one thing negative about the 797.
 
argentinevol98
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:36 am

MoKa777 wrote:
Single pilot cockpits may not necessarily reduce pilot costs for airlines.

At the moment, with 2 pilots in the cockpit, there is shared/potential for shared responsibility and workload.

Duty periods and rest is calculated with this in mind.

Moving to single pilot cockpits/operations will necessitate a review of this aspect of the operation with greater rest periods possibly being required. More rest per pilot means more pilots to operate a certain number of flights per week, months, etc.

Will costs actually be significantly reduced to justify the move to a method of operation that the flying (and paying) public will have a hard time trusting?


You can also expect unions to push for higher compensation for single pilot ops. Especially if it means a higher relative workload.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
reltney
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:51 am

Elementalism wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
i hope the 757plus is an actual 757plus, not just the NMA with the name 757. What I mean by real 757 is the performance capabilities, etc. Let's see what happens

I would hope it had better performance then the 757, a slightly wider 3-3 fuselage and similar lengths and weights to the 757 with a wing of the same area but 43-44m span could see a range of 5000nm+.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think that is a pretty obvious expectation. And if the 757 got a max treatment or an ER treatment could had done it by now. The original had legs out to 4000nm with 1970s technology and no ER treatment.
My only question however is weight. The original 757 is heavier than an A321. Not sure how they would get the performance of a 757 but reduce weight to compete with A321. But maybe a new wing and engine combo can get it done.



Ha. Reduce weight to compete....you are joking.... The 757 already outperforms the 321. Flown them both... many hours .... trans con both ways in a 757 Is easy. Never had to leave a pax/fuel or cargo. Never once did I have a restricted 757.... Even taking off from DCA or LGA. Can’t say that about the 321... not even close. I take off and land at SNA with no restrictions....DCA and LGA...same thing... can’t say that about the 321 and the 737/8/900. Now the 757-300 is better To Hawaii and in a class by itself. I fly the 757-200 from Paris to the US without restrictions also...fill it up... I even had to fly one empty from Tokyo to SEA without pax and F/As... no problems...

It’s not a B vs A discussion. The bus is good in many ways, it just doesn’t come close. The Neo did close the gap but I have not flown or rode in one yet. Our airline proves it, our ceo said it. The Director of flight ops preaches it and he was a bus guy....AWST did a great comparison of the 2 and the stock 757 wins. A 757 plus will again make it leaps better in performance. Wish they had a wider fuselage.

Cheers...
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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strfyr51
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:28 am

ewt340 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Ok, Humor me this. What's the actual benefit for Airlines to purchase B757+?

First of all, it's not in the same family as B737NG or MAX. They don't get the benefit that they got from A320neo/A321neo pairing.
How many routes actually needed A321XLR and B757+ range? From all of those routes, how many of them would be able to be operated by aircraft with smaller range like standard A321neo or MAX10?
Would adding an extra family of aircraft (more maintenance for more model, higher training costs) for B757+ be sufficient enough to offset the amount of fuel burn they would save from the aircraft?
If the airlines who didn't operated any Boeing narrowbody aircrafts (LH, BA, AF, Iberia, LATAM, IndiGo, JetBlue, EasyJet, Wizz, Spirit, Air Asia,Vueling, Allegiant Air, etc.) What benefit would they get from buying B757+? Like, if it's a part of B737NG lineup, then yes, re-engining it would be logical. But it's a whole different aircraft.

Also, between the original A321 and B757-200 who have 11 years age gap between them. How much fuel saving does the new wings and engines could provide to match A321XLR?
Surely, with such gap between the original model. A321XLR would already have a head start in terms of efficiency by design. Would airlines really buy B757+ if its 5% more fuel efficient compared to A321XLR?


You did not retain that the 757+ and 767-X would have common systems.

The impact of removing pilots will be a SIGNIFICANT benefit will change the airlines business case

I'm really thinking of a COMBO impact (757 + / 767-X) in the 220-280 seats, in the MOM in 2029-2030


Ok, how many airlines outside the US who would operate both B757+ and B767X?
Out of those airlines, how ma. The Aircraft became opoularny of them operate A320/A321? And how many of them would be choosing B757+ over A321XLR when they are operating A320/A321 already.
Also, if the benefits of common systems could only be retain by buying both models. Airlines have to buy both models, otherwise there would be no common systems. If those airlines doesn't need the other aircraft, then they wouldn't get the benefits, how would you convinced them to order it?

In 2029-2030, what other products airbus could came up with on their end? A322neo with 5000nmi range? replacement of A330neo?

are you certain that the 757X won't outperform the A321 or are you just HOPING it won't be outperformed? The 757 wasn't built initially to be an intercontinental Airplane model as it wasn initially built to replace the 727-200. The 767-200 was built for US Transcon and European regional work.. The Aircraft became popular because of it's efficiency. even when everything went from analog to Digital with the onset of the 777-200. Boeing only really needed to rebuild the airplane in the Digital realm for it to be successful as everything else was pretty successful and they had the 777 and 787 to take the best features from for any new airplane they wanted to build. Boeing wanted to re-invent the wheel though and flubbed it with the 737Max when they could have started with the 757 planform and put a really nice engine under the wing. Then they half assed the MCAS system and now we find ourselves in the mess we see now. . Boeing it appears want's to beat a dead horse and NOT admit defeat with the 737MAX!
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:36 am

reltney wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I would hope it had better performance then the 757, a slightly wider 3-3 fuselage and similar lengths and weights to the 757 with a wing of the same area but 43-44m span could see a range of 5000nm+.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think that is a pretty obvious expectation. And if the 757 got a max treatment or an ER treatment could had done it by now. The original had legs out to 4000nm with 1970s technology and no ER treatment.
My only question however is weight. The original 757 is heavier than an A321. Not sure how they would get the performance of a 757 but reduce weight to compete with A321. But maybe a new wing and engine combo can get it done.



Ha. Reduce weight to compete....you are joking.... The 757 already outperforms the 321. Flown them both... many hours .... trans con both ways in a 757 Is easy. Never had to leave a pax/fuel or cargo. Never once did I have a restricted 757.... Even taking off from DCA or LGA. Can’t say that about the 321... not even close. I take off and land at SNA with no restrictions....DCA and LGA...same thing... can’t say that about the 321 and the 737/8/900. Now the 757-300 is better To Hawaii and in a class by itself. I fly the 757-200 from Paris to the US without restrictions also...fill it up... I even had to fly one empty from Tokyo to SEA without pax and F/As... no problems...

It’s not a B vs A discussion. The bus is good in many ways, it just doesn’t come close. The Neo did close the gap but I have not flown or rode in one yet. Our airline proves it, our ceo said it. The Director of flight ops preaches it and he was a bus guy....AWST did a great comparison of the 2 and the stock 757 wins. A 757 plus will again make it leaps better in performance. Wish they had a wider fuselage.

Cheers...


I’d agree with what you say in the whole but the A321NEOLR has entirely closed the payload range gap and with basically identical field performance the benefit of the 757 is effectively ‘being owned already’.

The 321XLR extends the payload range of the aircraft beyond that which the 757 is capable of in its current guise.

An NEO version of the 757 would claw back all of the lossy payload range advantage that the 321 has gained but the cost and fuel burn metrics would still lag due to the higher empty weight of the 757.

We should not be surprised that higher payload range performance has an operational cost in terms of effective fuel use and this would be not different for the 757neo vs A321neo as it was for 757 vs A321 just that the range over which the comparisons are made has shifted up. We see that previous ‘fight’ being lost by the A319neo/73Gmax vs A220.

The current 757 is just over into the D gate standard I believe and so the availability to rewind at higher spans is much easier for a customer and would help long range performance, of course this would have the disadvantage on shorter flights but then twas ever thus.

Fred


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flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:20 am

strfyr51 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

You did not retain that the 757+ and 767-X would have common systems.

The impact of removing pilots will be a SIGNIFICANT benefit will change the airlines business case

I'm really thinking of a COMBO impact (757 + / 767-X) in the 220-280 seats, in the MOM in 2029-2030


Ok, how many airlines outside the US who would operate both B757+ and B767X?
Out of those airlines, how ma. The Aircraft became opoularny of them operate A320/A321? And how many of them would be choosing B757+ over A321XLR when they are operating A320/A321 already.
Also, if the benefits of common systems could only be retain by buying both models. Airlines have to buy both models, otherwise there would be no common systems. If those airlines doesn't need the other aircraft, then they wouldn't get the benefits, how would you convinced them to order it?

In 2029-2030, what other products airbus could came up with on their end? A322neo with 5000nmi range? replacement of A330neo?

are you certain that the 757X won't outperform the A321 or are you just HOPING it won't be outperformed? The 757 wasn't built initially to be an intercontinental Airplane model as it wasn initially built to replace the 727-200. The 767-200 was built for US Transcon and European regional work..


It does very much depend on what one means by “outperformed”.

If you mean payload-range performance then I’d agree that just slapping new engines on at 20% better and the 757 would have the payload range performance of the 321XLR. Upgraded MTOW wouldn’t be too hard and would again be able to increase payload range performance. A new, longer, wing could also increase the payload range performance. Without my performance model I can’t give you figures but I’d wager you could get 10% better in the payload range.

If by outperformed you mean casm then the answer is most likely not as the increased payload range performance has an inherent fuel burn/operating cost. Physics can’t be bent, even by an almost mythical 757.

Fred


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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:41 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Antaras wrote:

I want to naming three new version of 757: 757X, 757XS and 757XS Max :duck:
Those literally make sense.


Seriously? If launched it would be a brand new plane and not called 757Anything.


We don’t know that.


Lol the dude's joke just went over y'all's heads.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:39 pm

WN732 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Seriously? If launched it would be a brand new plane and not called 757Anything.


We don’t know that.


Lol the dude's joke just went over y'all's heads.


Lol y'all bin sleepin for two months?
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:44 pm

My question is, who would be the launch customer for these? I mean, before the DL fans enter the chat, they have the 321neo and 330neo, so why would they do this? UA and AA also have other aircraft on order that would make these redundant. This is a really great idea and all, heck I almost broke the bed by jumping on it out of excitement, but then, who'd order it? I'm saying this because I want this to happen.
 
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:13 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
My question is, who would be the launch customer for these? I mean, before the DL fans enter the chat, they have the 321neo and 330neo, so why would they do this? UA and AA also have other aircraft on order that would make these redundant. This is a really great idea and all, heck I almost broke the bed by jumping on it out of excitement, but then, who'd order it? I'm saying this because I want this to happen.


The A-330-300 has much larger capacity than a proposed 767 or 757, and Delta needs to replace a fleet of 767s and long rang 757s. I can imagine a proposed, upgraded version of one or both of these aircraft might fit their fleet requirements better and at a lower price, given lower development costs.
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Revelation
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:24 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
My question is, who would be the launch customer for these? I mean, before the DL fans enter the chat, they have the 321neo and 330neo, so why would they do this? UA and AA also have other aircraft on order that would make these redundant. This is a really great idea and all, heck I almost broke the bed by jumping on it out of excitement, but then, who'd order it? I'm saying this because I want this to happen.

Most of this thread was written before COVID was a thing.

IMO it's pretty clear there will be no interest for these programs for many years, either from the airlines or from Boeing, and one can argue as time goes on the odds drop to zero for 757 (if not there already, due to additional retirements) and near zero for 767 (since there will be so many used and very capable alternate aircraft available).

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1449547&p=22340631#p22340631 gives a good take on what Boeing may be up to.

I can only imagine whatever was left of the FSA/NMA/797 effort is a pure R&D effort now, no one is going to want to start a clean sheet any time soon.
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:12 pm

jagraham wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think the 'B757+' name isn't that descriptive. I think it's more likely to be a 762 sized airplane. This is going to add value beyond A32x family members. Yet it's not going to have range like A330/787 so it'll be lighter.


It arguably could, though. The 767-200ER had an MZFW of 5000nm, which is there with the A330-900. Add a better wing and better engines, the SFC reductions should allow range in the neighborhood of 5500nm which is there with the 787-8.


ewt340 wrote:
Adding 30 passengers to B767-300ER would bring it's capacity way closer to B767-400ER. And B767-400ER have almost the exact capacity to B787-8. For passengers variants, wouldn't it be better to just go with B787-8?


The 787-8 is effectively a niche model within the family, sharing surprisingly little with the 787-9 and 787-10 and therefore has not seen per-unit cost reductions as quickly as the 787-9 and 787-10 have. That being said, for operators of the entire 787 family, there are economies of scale and I really only see the 767-400ERXneo appealing to existing 767 operators, of which there are precious little (and the largest are the US3 whose appetite over the next decade about buying a new plane in the hundreds is suspect, IMO).


788 has been based upon 789 since LN 981. It was a major selling point, and the change allowed Boeing to undercut the A338.


788 is not undercutting the A338. Not even close.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:55 am

Revelation wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
My question is, who would be the launch customer for these? I mean, before the DL fans enter the chat, they have the 321neo and 330neo, so why would they do this? UA and AA also have other aircraft on order that would make these redundant. This is a really great idea and all, heck I almost broke the bed by jumping on it out of excitement, but then, who'd order it? I'm saying this because I want this to happen.

Most of this thread was written before COVID was a thing.

IMO it's pretty clear there will be no interest for these programs for many years, either from the airlines or from Boeing, and one can argue as time goes on the odds drop to zero for 757 (if not there already, due to additional retirements) and near zero for 767 (since there will be so many used and very capable alternate aircraft available).

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1449547&p=22340631#p22340631 gives a good take on what Boeing may be up to.

I can only imagine whatever was left of the FSA/NMA/797 effort is a pure R&D effort now, no one is going to want to start a clean sheet any time soon.



Yes, though this thread started April end, and COVID really took effect by February end-March, and travel restrictions even went to January. This thread was NOT mostly before corona. Plus, with the abandonment of larger 777s, A350s, 787s, 747s, and A380s, few planes benefit here. Small A330s/767s and A321/757.
 
ewt340
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:08 am

mbmbos wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
My question is, who would be the launch customer for these? I mean, before the DL fans enter the chat, they have the 321neo and 330neo, so why would they do this? UA and AA also have other aircraft on order that would make these redundant. This is a really great idea and all, heck I almost broke the bed by jumping on it out of excitement, but then, who'd order it? I'm saying this because I want this to happen.


The A-330-300 has much larger capacity than a proposed 767 or 757, and Delta needs to replace a fleet of 767s and long rang 757s. I can imagine a proposed, upgraded version of one or both of these aircraft might fit their fleet requirements better and at a lower price, given lower development costs.


Looking at their A330-200. Most are still in their teen years. And Delta loves to keep aircraft till they are really old. So most of them would still got at least 10 more years in their fleet. Especially when they are retrofitting them with new seats now.

So their thinner market are still safe with 234 seats A330-200.

They also planning on using B767-300ER/-400ER for some time now.
Last edited by ewt340 on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:09 am

ewt340 wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
My question is, who would be the launch customer for these? I mean, before the DL fans enter the chat, they have the 321neo and 330neo, so why would they do this? UA and AA also have other aircraft on order that would make these redundant. This is a really great idea and all, heck I almost broke the bed by jumping on it out of excitement, but then, who'd order it? I'm saying this because I want this to happen.


The A-330-300 has much larger capacity than a proposed 767 or 757, and Delta needs to replace a fleet of 767s and long rang 757s. I can imagine a proposed, upgraded version of one or both of these aircraft might fit their fleet requirements better and at a lower price, given lower development costs.


Looking at their A330-200. Most are still in their teen years. And Delta loves to keep aircraft till they are really old. So most of them would still got at least 10 more years in their fleet. Especially when they are retrofitting them with new seats now.

So their thinner market are still safe with 234 seats A330-200.


Yep. Not to mention the A330-300s that were delivered new less than 5 years ago. Funfact- the A330-200 and 757-300 at Delta BOTH seat 234 passengers. Kinda funny, if you think about it.
 
744SPX
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:44 am

How about a 757 re-engine for existing airframes, like with the DC-8 super 70's? Plenty of airframes and a new engine should provide 15% at least. Very low risk compared to building additional frames with a new engine. Same goes for the 767.
 
2175301
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:13 am

744SPX wrote:
How about a 757 re-engine for existing airframes, like with the DC-8 super 70's? Plenty of airframes and a new engine should provide 15% at least. Very low risk compared to building additional frames with a new engine. Same goes for the 767.


Much of the major tooling for the 757 is gone. I have heard from sources that there is a piece or two of it on display; but, most of it is gone. So the 757 is not coming back.... and what engine would they put on it?

My understanding is that the The 767-400 can be re-engined relatively cheaply using the GE 748 engines (a derivative of the GE 787 engines) with some strength modifications to the wing. However, my understanding is also that while that will work for a Freighter; that Boeing did not get much interest in a passenger variant with that configuration.

However, my understanding is that there was some interest in a passenger 764 "neo" if Boeing spent about another $1.5 Billion on a new longer wing and wingbox... (which would improve the aerodynamic performance too). However, not for the Freighter as its market is for shorter wings - as their biggest customers for new 767F's have space constraints which is why they love the 767F.

I don't know yet what Boeing will do except that I have been told by an insider that the 764F re-engine project is a certainty as Boeing does not wish to surrender that market, and they have blue chip clients willing to commit in numbers large enough to make it viable.

The B767 certainly weighs less than the A330, which does have theoretical advantages.

Time will tell...

Have a great day,
 
2175301
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:53 am

744SPX wrote:
How about a 757 re-engine for existing airframes, like with the DC-8 super 70's? Plenty of airframes and a new engine should provide 15% at least. Very low risk compared to building additional frames with a new engine. Same goes for the 767.


Also, concerning the 757. The entire production line including parts production lines were long ago shut down (and tooling for those parts destroyed). Recreating that and re certifying all of that would take years and likely cost a couple $ Billion or so (as things would be changed to digital drawings). Not going to happen.

The 767 has possibilities as its still in production. Even if the "400" needs some unique parts that are no longer in production... its not that many - and doable.

There is a vast difference in the possibilities between the 757 and 767 regarding a future variant.

The question is: Is there enough of a market for a new passenger variant to make it worth doing? My understanding is that the initial reaction was closer to the marginal at best scenario pre-covid-19.

Have a great day,
 
tullamarine
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:24 am

744SPX wrote:
How about a 757 re-engine for existing airframes, like with the DC-8 super 70's? Plenty of airframes and a new engine should provide 15% at least. Very low risk compared to building additional frames with a new engine. Same goes for the 767.

It makes no sense to upgrade existing airframes that are nearing the end of their useful lives. The engines would be worth far more than the airframe. The 757 is dead and buried; you need to move on.
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744SPX
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:45 am

I never said make more 757's. I simply inquired about the possibility of re-engine existing ones. Its been done before and this thread is about 757/767 proposals. Calm down tullamarine.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:30 am

744SPX wrote:
I never said make more 757's. I simply inquired about the possibility of re-engine existing ones. Its been done before and this thread is about 757/767 proposals. Calm down tullamarine.


Possibility = 0;
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flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:56 am

Whilst I’d agree there is a certainly an apparent gap in the capability continuum between the A321XLR and the 788/A338 it isn’t clear that this gap is desired by the market or there because of s lack of an offering.

If I were to say what I would like to see it would be a sort of 757+. A 250 seat ( 752 size) narrow body capable of ~6000nm pax and bags range with a stretched 300seat version (753length) capable of around 4800-5000nm pax only range with max payload capability over real TATL ranges. I would think it would be possible to get this from a 130-135t MTOW. A slightly wider fuselage capable of taking LD3-45s and share the cross section with the 737 replacement...

Fred


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Guillaume787
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:57 am

I’m a die hard 757-lover. But guys (and gals), there comes a point in life when you just have to move on. We all need to move on. The 757 is never, ever, coming back...
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:00 am

flipdewaf wrote:
If I were to say what I would like to see it would be a sort of 757+. A 250 seat ( 752 size) narrow body capable of ~6000nm pax and bags range with a stretched 300seat version (753length) capable of around 4800-5000nm pax only range with max payload capability over real TATL ranges.

Post COVID I actually think this will be the biggest market. We already had a trend of route fragmentation that has seen the death of the A380 in favour of smaller widebodies. With a sudden drop in demand I think there will be long term effects on fleet planning.

We might see traditional widebody routes swapped to a long range narrowbody in the short to medium term Once demand recovers in the long term I think airlines will just increase frequency and never go back to a large widebody.

The idea of a 6000nm narrowbody was seen as being decades away. I think sharing the fuselage cross section with the 737 replacement is by far the best option now.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Reuters: Boeing consiering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:15 am

IWMBH wrote:
I can see the 767-upgrade happening. The plane is still selling well and a relatively small investment could make it the go-to freighter for the coming decade(s).

But, I don't get why they want to release a 757-like plane to compete with the A321.
Wouldn't it be much easer to create a 737-replacement and lengthen it just like Airbus did?

well? I don't know why they wouldn't. The A321 jumped into the market that Boeing left. The 737-9 and -10 might be already tarnished by their previous blunders and Many think it's high time they put them to rest. The 757 had the range to do what the A321 did and does and did it without extra tanks in the hold. So? Why Not update them and bring them back? if they bring back both the 757 and 767 in updated forms? There's not a thing Airbus can do about it except go on the defensive. And? Boeing can save a damn lot of money as the airplanes are already certified. So? Why NOT?
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:19 am

They should offer the 757X the size of a 757-250 ( between a 752 and a 753 ), 787 cockpit , new and lighter materials equal to the 787 and a new enhanced wing ! Offer it with a 4000 miles range and an ER Version with 6000 miles !

Same with the 767-X , the sitze between a -300 and a -400 , 787 cockpit , new wings , lighter materials and same type ratings for 757/767/787 ! Than they would sell it and have a fantastic product for the next 30 years to come ! If they concentrate on the 737 they will be gone faster than they can spell Boeing !
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
strfyr51
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:21 am

Elementalism wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
i hope the 757plus is an actual 757plus, not just the NMA with the name 757. What I mean by real 757 is the performance capabilities, etc. Let's see what happens

I would hope it had better performance then the 757, a slightly wider 3-3 fuselage and similar lengths and weights to the 757 with a wing of the same area but 43-44m span could see a range of 5000nm+.

Fred


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I think that is a pretty obvious expectation. And if the 757 got a max treatment or an ER treatment could had done it by now. The original had legs out to 4000nm with 1970s technology and no ER treatment.
My only question however is weight. The original 757 is heavier than an A321. Not sure how they would get the performance of a 757 but reduce weight to compete with A321. But maybe a new wing and engine combo can get it done.

quite a bit of weight might be saved building composite wings and revamping the flight control systems to digital thus eliminating cables and Pulleys in the flight control systems, they might also benefit from making the 757 and 767similar enough to have seamless pilot integration between the two models..
 
AngMoh
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:30 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Whilst I’d agree there is a certainly an apparent gap in the capability continuum between the A321XLR and the 788/A338 it isn’t clear that this gap is desired by the market or there because of s lack of an offering.

If I were to say what I would like to see it would be a sort of 757+. A 250 seat ( 752 size) narrow body capable of ~6000nm pax and bags range with a stretched 300seat version (753length) capable of around 4800-5000nm pax only range with max payload capability over real TATL ranges. I would think it would be possible to get this from a 130-135t MTOW. A slightly wider fuselage capable of taking LD3-45s and share the cross section with the 737 replacement...

Fred


It's impossible to have 250 pax over 6000nm in a 752 sized narrow body. For 6000nm, you need catering, toilets and other items which take space and if you are going to fly any other routes than what Cebu Pacific does, then you need to find mini sized passengers which can handle 29" seat pitch for 11 hours. 5000 with 300 seats in a 753 is also a no go. Most A332s and 788s have less than 300 seats even in a tight configuration.

Delta has around 240 seats in a 753 and around 160-200 seats in a 752. Why would you want to add 25% to 60% more seats while at the same time wanting to double the range? Only a real masochist would want to use that service.

If you want to go long haul less than 300 pax, take a 788 or A332/8. You save billions in development costs and at least you can take decent amount of cargo. If you are at less than 200 pax, maybe narrow body becomes an option but I still can not see it work.
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RJMAZ
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:00 am

AngMoh wrote:
It's impossible to have 250 pax over 6000nm in a 752 sized narrow body.

He is clearly talking about the all economy maximum seating numbers. This is how most narrowbody aircraft seating numbers get measured.

No airline would configure such an aircraft with that many seats on a 6000nm flight. It would most definitely have less than 150 seats. Half the number of what a 787 would carry.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:02 am

AngMoh wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Whilst I’d agree there is a certainly an apparent gap in the capability continuum between the A321XLR and the 788/A338 it isn’t clear that this gap is desired by the market or there because of s lack of an offering.

If I were to say what I would like to see it would be a sort of 757+. A 250 seat ( 752 size) narrow body capable of ~6000nm pax and bags range with a stretched 300seat version (753length) capable of around 4800-5000nm pax only range with max payload capability over real TATL ranges. I would think it would be possible to get this from a 130-135t MTOW. A slightly wider fuselage capable of taking LD3-45s and share the cross section with the 737 replacement...

Fred


It's impossible to have 250 pax over 6000nm in a 752 sized narrow body. For 6000nm, you need catering, toilets and other items which take space and if you are going to fly any other routes than what Cebu Pacific does, then you need to find mini sized passengers which can handle 29" seat pitch for 11 hours. 5000 with 300 seats in a 753 is also a no go. Most A332s and 788s have less than 300 seats even in a tight configuration.

Delta has around 240 seats in a 753 and around 160-200 seats in a 752. Why would you want to add 25% to 60% more seats while at the same time wanting to double the range? Only a real masochist would want to use that service.


If you want to go long haul less than 300 pax, take a 788 or A332/8. You save billions in development costs and at least you can take decent amount of cargo. If you are at less than 200 pax, maybe narrow body becomes an option but I still can not see it work.


I agree with you completely, the reference for the seating I used was for the maximum rather than actual used in service, like you say a 250 seat maximum is more like 160-200 for actual 3 class service.

with reference to the range, a 752 with simply upgraded engines would have ~4800nm spec range but in this instance the XLR means that its previous USP is all but gone, the slightly higher fuel burn per pax doesn't really matter to the airline when there are portions of a market it can claim to itself but if that market is small the investment is not worth it for the OEM. For me the requirement is capacity of the 757s, range performance of the 767s.

Fred
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StTim
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:29 am

I really do not see how people consider that Boeing could reinstall the 757 production line and produce an already certified aircraft.

There will be so many changes, new tooling, new companies, etc it must be treated as new. Are the 757 drawings even in in any current readable electronic form?
 
Strato2
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:57 am

Boeing rehashing the 757 would be a gift from the heavens to Airbus.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:11 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Whilst I’d agree there is a certainly an apparent gap in the capability continuum between the A321XLR and the 788/A338 it isn’t clear that this gap is desired by the market or there because of s lack of an offering.

If I were to say what I would like to see it would be a sort of 757+. A 250 seat ( 752 size) narrow body capable of ~6000nm pax and bags range with a stretched 300seat version (753length) capable of around 4800-5000nm pax only range with max payload capability over real TATL ranges. I would think it would be possible to get this from a 130-135t MTOW. A slightly wider fuselage capable of taking LD3-45s and share the cross section with the 737 replacement...

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So a slightly bigger A321 with new wing. The MLG is already designed and ready for more than 101MTOW as there are A32X with 8 tyres on the MLG.

A new bigger wing for more fuel and lift as well as higher velocity on a 2m stretched A321 platform could do all that for minimal development costs (+ a new engine). Sounds pretty nice, given cockpit and cabin commonality with the standard A32Ns.

Thats what you are up to from Boeings perspective. Can a 30bn$ Investment compete against this from Airbus for 10bn$?
 
ItnStln
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:30 am

Strato2 wrote:
Boeing rehashing the 757 would be a gift from the heavens to Airbus.

No, it wouldn't be.
 
ewt340
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:58 am

ItnStln wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Boeing rehashing the 757 would be a gift from the heavens to Airbus.

No, it wouldn't be.


It would, cause Boeing would spent all those money just for Airlines to give it a cold shoulder.

Rehashing B757 doesn't make sense. Too many reason for airlines not to use it.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:06 am

FluidFlow wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Whilst I’d agree there is a certainly an apparent gap in the capability continuum between the A321XLR and the 788/A338 it isn’t clear that this gap is desired by the market or there because of s lack of an offering.

If I were to say what I would like to see it would be a sort of 757+. A 250 seat ( 752 size) narrow body capable of ~6000nm pax and bags range with a stretched 300seat version (753length) capable of around 4800-5000nm pax only range with max payload capability over real TATL ranges. I would think it would be possible to get this from a 130-135t MTOW. A slightly wider fuselage capable of taking LD3-45s and share the cross section with the 737 replacement...

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So a slightly bigger A321 with new wing. The MLG is already designed and ready for more than 101MTOW as there are A32X with 8 tyres on the MLG.

A new bigger wing for more fuel and lift as well as higher velocity on a 2m stretched A321 platform could do all that for minimal development costs (+ a new engine). Sounds pretty nice, given cockpit and cabin commonality with the standard A32Ns.

Thats what you are up to from Boeings perspective. Can a 30bn$ Investment compete against this from Airbus for 10bn$?


I think the 4 gear trucks are long gone for the A32X and weren't really up for more weight (small tyres), I'm not sure that the A321 ++ has that much more weight growth in it but I'm speaking from a speculative point of view not authoritative. Velocity might be quite limiting for the A32X due to the stubby nose, that forehead might get draggy at higher Mach Numbers.

I think you are completely right from the investment perspective however, civil aviation is a mature industry, mavericks are no longer going to be driving the way with new designs, its marginal gains and supply chain efficiencies that will be what drives the industry for the foreseeable. This is why a new design would have to operate in a market that the competition is not capable of.

It might come down to what is the least worst option...

Fred
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SwissCanuck
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Re: Reuters: Boeing considering 757-Plus and 767-X

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:06 pm

744SPX wrote:
I never said make more 757's. I simply inquired about the possibility of re-engine existing ones. Its been done before and this thread is about 757/767 proposals. Calm down tullamarine.


The airframe expires with new engines on the wings or not - there's no point. When existing frames hit their cycle/hour max that's game over.

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