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TWA772LR
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:16 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
TXL probably won't be missed. I'll never forget flying into there on a UA 757 from EWR. That was quite a long flight on a narrowbody plane to begin with, though we were lucky enough to be on the plane for an extra hour or two at EWR after our "on time departure" thanks to EWR's summer transatlantic bank congestion. Once we finally arrived at TXL, there was no quickly getting up and off the plane as might be the case anyplace else in Europe...although I guess waiting in line for customs in the aisle of the airplane and then the jetbridge (since we were processed by two tiny customs booths right at the entrance to the hexagon) was a truly unique experience for a 21st century traveler?

I then found a bus to the nearest U-Bahn station in a local neighborhood. It's not like Berlin's public transit was ever extended to TXL, since the airport has been due for closure and replacement for many years now. Once at the U-Bahn, I was unable to buy any sort of ticket.. so I followed the advice of the young locals and hopped over the turnstile with all my luggage in tow. Less than one hour in Germany, and already breaking the law. Luckily I did get a free ride to downtown Berlin rather than free ride to a police station! Even so, the arrival experience into Berlin was absolutely terrible. Hopefully the new airport will offer a much better experience than TXL!


There is/was an express bus to the banhof, as well as a lesser-known one that does a trip to the Zoo station from memory. I found it pretty easily. But both TXL and SXF are dumps.

I took the bus to the banhof, after circling forever to find an ATM to exchange currency without getting ripped off by Travelex (found one but wouldn't take my card so i still got ripped off), then had to ask that guy who pointed me to that girl to the other chick how to get to the city which put me on the crowded bus which took me to the banhof where i went through every level of the station trying to find the train I needed.

Leaving Berlin, I waited in the Costco-like LCC terminal for 3 hours (woke up and left earlier than I needed because I didn't realize how fast I'd get there) to take Easyjet to MUC, which is in a whole other century compared to TXL.
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hoons90
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:22 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
There is/was an express bus to the banhof, as well as a lesser-known one that does a trip to the Zoo station from memory. I found it pretty easily. But both TXL and SXF are dumps.


The TXL bus to Alexanderplatz is a complete pain to use. The buses are crushloaded with passengers, and there are no luggage racks on the bus so you have to squeeze in your suitcase in front of your feet or even carry it on your lap (if you're lucky enough to get a seat).
Much better to take a taxi.

Look forward to using the new Berlin airport in the future.
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shane
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:02 pm

For those who want to read a bit more about what will become of it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/busi ... erlin.html

While I do understand the annoyances with TXL, I for one will miss it. In fact I was planning to do a trip in early Oct. for a last hurrah, but alas, rona has canceled this plan like so many others.
 
CURQ400
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 01, 2020 12:01 am

mxaxai wrote:
Airbus747 wrote:
Are there any airports left around the world which have the "decentralized" security (security only during boarding, basically)?

AMS on some gates.


AMS has switched to centralized security a while now.
 
airhansa
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 01, 2020 12:15 am

Airbus747 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, pretty gutted that I won't get a chance to fly into TXL one more time. Had two "last trips" planned this summer through there. It had it's frustrating moments, but I love the brutalist architecture and relative convenience compared to mega airports with centralized security. Won't miss the LH lounges, though.


Are there any airports left around the world which have the "decentralized" security (security only during boarding, basically)?


I've been through a number of airport that have bag checks at the gate such as Schipol.
 
alggag
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 01, 2020 12:37 am

I flew through TXL a few times last year during a trip to Berlin. I'm glad to have checked it off my list but I will not miss it.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 01, 2020 1:22 pm

For the new airport Brandenburg (really an expansion), will the existing Schonefeld terminal remain?
 
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 01, 2020 4:00 pm

hoons90 wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
There is/was an express bus to the banhof, as well as a lesser-known one that does a trip to the Zoo station from memory. I found it pretty easily. But both TXL and SXF are dumps.


The TXL bus to Alexanderplatz is a complete pain to use. The buses are crushloaded with passengers, and there are no luggage racks on the bus so you have to squeeze in your suitcase in front of your feet or even carry it on your lap (if you're lucky enough to get a seat).
Much better to take a taxi.

Look forward to using the new Berlin airport in the future.


1. I you have the BVG app, you can purchase your Tageskarte with two swipes of the phone before deplaning. No waiting for the Automat.
2. Yes, luggage is an issue on every city bus I have encountered. This is not exclusive to TXL or Berlin. Heck, it can be a pain tripping over bags on the S1/S8 for MUC to MUC Hbf.
3. Taxi costs 30-60 EUR from TXL to Alex.
4. As a government employee, I am prohibited from expensing a taxi if public transportation is available. This is to save taxpayer funds and reduce CO2. I'd rather spend 5 EUR than 60 EUR.
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ua900
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Mon May 04, 2020 4:02 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
For the new airport Brandenburg (really an expansion), will the existing Schonefeld terminal remain?


The original opening plan called for the old soviet zone terminal to stay open as a designated LCC terminal because it was projected that passenger numbers would be very high and continue to warrant the operation of that terminal through at least 2025. Now with the rona that may not be necessary anymore, at least not in 2020 and the first half of 2021, only once traffic makes a full recovery.

There are some media sources however that state that the airport in Brandenburg will require serious financial interventions from the first day it opens for the foreseeable future. Anton Hofreiter, a member of the federal parliament cites a study that's still confidential and that's been picked up in several newspapers and on TV over the last week. According to that, the airport in Brandenburg could face a financial shutdown unless up to 1.8 billion Euros are pumped into that boondoggle. Sample source (German only): https://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/BER-ist- ... 47471.html

It will be interesting to see how the numbers for the new airport in the eastern zone will turn out when the airport in Berlin, which made a solid profit up to March, is shut down for good and the cheap soviet zone terminal is presumably taken offline as well. You'll have leisure traffic use the very expensive new terminal in Brandenburg through the summer season of 2021, and a significant loss of revenue due to less traffic by legacy carriers through 2021. I think unless the Politicos in the eastern zone find a good way to convince the EU that it's not a hidden subsidy, they will have a hard time keeping that airport open. The nearest terminal for Berlin may well turn out to be LEJ in the end ;-)
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Mon May 04, 2020 4:58 pm

factsonly wrote:
jevans900 wrote:
I flew into Berlin-Tegel almost 20 years ago on a school trip. Sad to see it's probably closing for good.
This is probably a dumb question, but I took a photo of my luggage tag from the trip, and we flew to Amsterdam on KLM, and then on Northwest Airlines flight 68. Any idea what aircraft I probably flew on... I've wanted to fly a 747 for years now, and I'm wondering if I actually already did. Image


If it was indeed 20 years ago that you visited Berlin Tegel (Summer 2000), your Atlantic flight sector NW68 AMS-DTW was operated by NW B747.

You can check the timetable yourself.

http://northwestairlineshistory.org/wp- ... -06-01.pdf


Good find. I love that NWA history site. I noticed that the tag indicates flight date of April 12. The schedule for April 2000 seems to be missing from the site, but NW68 was running on the 744 in the January-March schedule. I also checked the April 1998 schedule, where NW68 is also showing as 744. Jevans900, do you know the year?
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MartijnNL
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Mon May 04, 2020 10:17 pm

factsonly wrote:
If it was indeed 20 years ago that you visited Berlin Tegel (Summer 2000), your Atlantic flight sector NW68 AMS-DTW was operated by NW B747.

You can check the timetable yourself.

http://northwestairlineshistory.org/wp- ... -06-01.pdf

Except NW68 operated the other way around, from DTW to AMS, as indicated by the luggage tag, with the final destination of this trip being TXL. ;)
 
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Mon May 04, 2020 10:19 pm

airhansa wrote:
I've been through a number of airport that have bag checks at the gate such as Schipol.

Schiphol doesn't have that anymore, luckily.
 
max999
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 6:54 am

ua900 wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
For the new airport Brandenburg (really an expansion), will the existing Schonefeld terminal remain?


The original opening plan called for the old soviet zone terminal to stay open as a designated LCC terminal because it was projected that passenger numbers would be very high and continue to warrant the operation of that terminal through at least 2025. Now with the rona that may not be necessary anymore, at least not in 2020 and the first half of 2021, only once traffic makes a full recovery.

There are some media sources however that state that the airport in Brandenburg will require serious financial interventions from the first day it opens for the foreseeable future. Anton Hofreiter, a member of the federal parliament cites a study that's still confidential and that's been picked up in several newspapers and on TV over the last week. According to that, the airport in Brandenburg could face a financial shutdown unless up to 1.8 billion Euros are pumped into that boondoggle. Sample source (German only): https://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/BER-ist- ... 47471.html

It will be interesting to see how the numbers for the new airport in the eastern zone will turn out when the airport in Berlin, which made a solid profit up to March, is shut down for good and the cheap soviet zone terminal is presumably taken offline as well. You'll have leisure traffic use the very expensive new terminal in Brandenburg through the summer season of 2021, and a significant loss of revenue due to less traffic by legacy carriers through 2021. I think unless the Politicos in the eastern zone find a good way to convince the EU that it's not a hidden subsidy, they will have a hard time keeping that airport open. The nearest terminal for Berlin may well turn out to be LEJ in the end ;-)


This study about BER's finances takes into account COVID-19 and the resulting collapse in traffic. If you take that study and apply to any other airport today, you will find every airport in the world is losing money and will require a bailout.

So the future subsidies are not going to be unique for BER. Every airport is in the same desperate financial situation. I disagree with your implication that only BER needs subsidies.
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PANAMsterdam
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 7:08 am

If TXL is really done on June 1st my last memory of the airport will forever be a remarkable one!

Last september, upon arrival we docked at the A-gates so I got to experience that for the first time, (KLM normally uses the barn.. eh.. d-gates) And upon my departure I was being carried in a wheelchair to the aircraft only 24 hours after I had been involved in an accident breaking my arm, hurting my knees, 6 stitches in my chin and bruises everywhere. My travel insurance company did upgrade me to business class so i got access to the lounge where a group of people felt so sorry for me (i really looked like i got overrun by a bus) that they kept running to and from the buffet to feed me wine and cookies :lol:

Looks like i really did go out with a bang!
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cityshuttle
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 8:43 am

KLM (and AF) had actually relocated back to gates A10 and A11 in terminal A [from terminal D] since the collapse of AB in 2017
 
Airdolomiti
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 9:12 am

If TXL really does close on June 1, I doubt it will be "temporary". No point reopening an airport that is set to close by November 8 anyway.

It will also be a very undignified way for TXL to go. I have very fond memories, not the least because it made countless business trips so much easier, helping me set my personal record of 57 minutes from bed to airplane seat (including showering and a 25-minute taxi ride from Friedrichshain) :) At least at terminal A, you were pretty much guaranteed not to miss your plane no matter how crowded security was, as most people in the queue would have been on the same flight anyway.

On the other hand, it never was a pleasant place to spend more time than strictly necessary. The rooftop terrace, though, will be dearly missed.

ua900 wrote:
The original opening plan called for the old soviet zone terminal to stay open as a designated LCC terminal because it was projected that passenger numbers would be very high and continue to warrant the operation of that terminal through at least 2025. Now with the rona that may not be necessary anymore, at least not in 2020 and the first half of 2021, only once traffic makes a full recovery. [...]

It will be interesting to see how the numbers for the new airport in the eastern zone will turn out when the airport in Berlin, which made a solid profit up to March, is shut down for good and the cheap soviet zone terminal is presumably taken offline as well. You'll have leisure traffic use the very expensive new terminal in Brandenburg through the summer season of 2021, and a significant loss of revenue due to less traffic by legacy carriers through 2021. [...]


I am not aware of any plans not to use the current Schönefeld terminal (future Terminal 5) even in the current situation. The check-in and gate areas have just been renamed, with terminals B, A, C and D now known as section K, L, Q and M. Signage has been updated and the former Pier 3a has been extensively remodeled.

It's still the same old SXF with the horrid Burger King and all though, and the general loss of revenue through 2021 and beyond remains a valid point.
 
ei146
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 9:53 am

ua900 wrote:
The original opening plan...


Dear ua900,

You are a moderator. You should set a positive example.
You may be fully correct in the financial and operational aspects you describe. I can even understand if you are disgusted by the whole Berlin airport story. So am I.
But please think about the wording of your message. The "Soviet" and "Eastern Zone" are a thing of the past.
Anyone using these terms nowadays to describe the presence or the future either completly missed out on the last 30 years of German history. Which I don't think you did.
Or does this on purpose to insult. The whole tone of the message resembles to me the way how the "superior" West-Berliners used to talk about the "lesser" East-Berliners.
Which is especially inapropriate as the vast majority of people reponsible for the mess BER is have a "Western" background.
I grew up in East Germany, GDR or Soviet Zone (how ever you chose to name it). They are gone.

Kind regards
ei146
 
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calstanford
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 11:45 am

The terminal was built in Soviet Zone times. It hasn't been upgrade since. So ua900 was 100% correct, whether you personally like it or not.

It has nothing to do with the 30 years of absolutely perfectly managed blooming landscape since reunification.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 12:05 pm

calstanford wrote:
The terminal was built in Soviet Zone times. It hasn't been upgrade since. So ua900 was 100% correct, whether you personally like it or not.

It has nothing to do with the 30 years of absolutely perfectly managed blooming landscape since reunification.



You talking about TXL? It's in West Berlin, in the French sector... unless I missed something and you're talking about SXF. Which had its charms during the Soviet times (the terrace and the master staircase), but today is defo a nightmare perfected by 30 years of mismanagement and the last 9 years of tragicomic BER delays...
 
mozart
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 1:25 pm

Airbus747 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, pretty gutted that I won't get a chance to fly into TXL one more time. Had two "last trips" planned this summer through there. It had it's frustrating moments, but I love the brutalist architecture and relative convenience compared to mega airports with centralized security. Won't miss the LH lounges, though.


Are there any airports left around the world which have the "decentralized" security (security only during boarding, basically)?


Barra in Scotland.
 
airhansa
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 1:50 pm

mozart wrote:
Airbus747 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, pretty gutted that I won't get a chance to fly into TXL one more time. Had two "last trips" planned this summer through there. It had it's frustrating moments, but I love the brutalist architecture and relative convenience compared to mega airports with centralized security. Won't miss the LH lounges, though.


Are there any airports left around the world which have the "decentralized" security (security only during boarding, basically)?


Barra in Scotland.


Singapore Changi does as well I think.
 
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calstanford
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 3:14 pm

oxonrow wrote:
calstanford wrote:
The terminal was built in Soviet Zone times. It hasn't been upgrade since. So ua900 was 100% correct, whether you personally like it or not.

It has nothing to do with the 30 years of absolutely perfectly managed blooming landscape since reunification.



You talking about TXL? It's in West Berlin, in the French sector... unless I missed something and you're talking about SXF. Which had its charms during the Soviet times (the terrace and the master staircase), but today is defo a nightmare perfected by 30 years of mismanagement and the last 9 years of tragicomic BER delays...


Schoenefeld of course.
TXL was in the French sector of West Berlin.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 3:19 pm

Here's an aspect no one has thus far mentioned: is it safe to be in this new terminal?

Given the multitude of items that were such a disaster from the design phase of the airport, and given how numerous the MAJOR items to be fixed were, and given how long the building sat empty while seemingly no one could even come up with a plan to fix things, how can one be sure that something wasn't forgotten?

This won't stop me from using the new BER (is that still the code for the new airport?), but given what happened at Dusseldorf airport in 1996, I will always wonder if there's something that was missed. But like Denver International's delays and somewhat bumpy start (thanks, United, for that ridiculous baggage system you made us all pay for!), time passes and future generations will adapt quickly to the building, and the delays will be joked about.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 4:32 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's an aspect no one has thus far mentioned: is it safe to be in this new terminal?

Given the multitude of items that were such a disaster from the design phase of the airport, and given how numerous the MAJOR items to be fixed were, and given how long the building sat empty while seemingly no one could even come up with a plan to fix things, how can one be sure that something wasn't forgotten?

This won't stop me from using the new BER (is that still the code for the new airport?), but given what happened at Dusseldorf airport in 1996, I will always wonder if there's something that was missed. But like Denver International's delays and somewhat bumpy start (thanks, United, for that ridiculous baggage system you made us all pay for!), time passes and future generations will adapt quickly to the building, and the delays will be joked about.


I think it's likely quite the opposite. This airport has been gone over with such a fine-toothed comb that I expect it's far safer than most airport terminals, especially older ones.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Tue May 05, 2020 4:56 pm

TXL also has an amazing Besucherterasse - where you can go on the roof of the terminal and watch planes. I've spend many an afternoon taking pictures from there. I'll be sad to see it close. My profile picture is actually a shot from there!
 
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ua900
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Wed May 06, 2020 2:19 am

calstanford wrote:
The terminal was built in Soviet Zone times. It hasn't been upgrade since. So ua900 was 100% correct, whether you personally like it or not.

It has nothing to do with the 30 years of absolutely perfectly managed blooming landscape since reunification.


Yup, no upgrades there. Just bare minimum maintenance, same as at TXL. The fact that both TXL and SXF are still standing after 30 years of mismanagement is a testament to the solid way in which they were built. Evidently both TXL and SXF endured years of use well beyond stated passenger capacity while seeing almost no maintenance. I still remember the amount of bad press needed to get the airport authority to redo the public bathrooms at TXL. That episode seemed representative of many other decisions.

And correct, "soviet" is a reference to the history of the terminal at SXF, not the current state of affairs in the region, that's more reminiscent of PANYNJ. I doubt the GDR ever had that kind of money to play with :-)

max999 wrote:
This study about BER's finances takes into account COVID-19 and the resulting collapse in traffic. If you take that study and apply to any other airport today, you will find every airport in the world is losing money and will require a bailout.

So the future subsidies are not going to be unique for BER. Every airport is in the same desperate financial situation. I disagree with your implication that only BER needs subsidies.


I agree with you that lots of other airports will also need additional money due to Covid related losses of revenue. I'm however also agreeing with the assessment of the study authors that the 300 million the airport says it needs is likely overstated by around 220 million since salaries are covered by short term government aid to augment salaries (Kurzarbeitergeld) and that the real Covid impact is likely only around 80 million at this point.

Source in the penultimate paragraph (German only): https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/bris ... 84234.html
For years and years, that airport authority had one airport that makes good money (TXL) and another one that made some money (SXF) and every last penny is diverted into a construction site that likely never will make money (BER). They can blame predecessors that mismanaged for say 25 years, Covid and whatever else. But at the end of the day, they are also sitting on a time bomb since they will have problems making the payments on all the accumulated interest even in the best of times.

ei146 wrote:
ua900 wrote:
The original opening plan...


Anyone using these terms nowadays to describe the presence or the future either completly missed out on the last 30 years of German history. Which I don't think you did.
Or does this on purpose to insult. The whole tone of the message resembles to me the way how the "superior" West-Berliners used to talk about the "lesser" East-Berliners.
Which is especially inapropriate as the vast majority of people reponsible for the mess BER is have a "Western" background.
I grew up in East Germany, GDR or Soviet Zone (how ever you chose to name it). They are gone.



Apologies if you felt insulted, wasn't meant to be an insult, just a more detailed breakdown of old vs. new since phatfarmlines asked specifically about what will happen to the old terminal (current SXF) when BER opens. The only thing "superior" about TXL vs. SXF is proximity to downtown. In terms of amenities, both need upgrades. TXL because it was starved of investments ever since the decision to build a new airport at BER was made, and SXF because it basically also hasn't been upgraded in the last 30 years. Neither airport was designed to serve as a major hub. While Interflug operated their hub out of SXF, their traffic volume and modest route network (Europe, Africa and Middle East for the most part) combined with the travel restrictions prior to 1989 featured hardly any connecting traffic, and of course, neither THF nor TXL had that either since most of the connecting traffic was via Frankfurt or Munich. So Berlin definitely needed a better airport capable of long haul flights and accomodating connecting traffic after reunification.

Having the airport come online in 2012 could have made a difference for Air Berlin's survival, and perhaps even persuaded Lufthansa to create a third hub there via Eurowings or Germanwings. Berlin is too late in that competition now one way or another. Yes, the people responsible for the mess mostly have a "western" background. As far as I'm concerned, the "R2G" colation in charge there with representatives from both the old west Berlin, the old east Berlin, the eastern state of Brandenburg, and the mostly western federal government, they all steered that cart into the muck. Not sure who corrupted whom, but the end result is clear. The one new survivor airport is deep in the red from day 1, even without Covid it would have been hard to make money given the mountain of debt accumulated through years of "German-German" incompetence.

What people like me will miss about TXL is the convenience of getting there and the convenience of a fast check-in process. Bear with us since we've become accustomed to our sleepy little city airport and often wish it could have stuck around for flights within the region. I've flown out of THF, TXL and SXF. I've appreciated the first two for their fast in / fast out and TXL also for the LH senator lounge, which I found to be as cozy and sleepy as TXL in general. It felt more like HAM than FRA or MUC. SXF didn't have a lot of legacies, so I didn't use it a lot. I liked the hidden observation platform, the restaurant upstairs, but that lounge there wasn't on par with the senator lounge.

I understand that many people feel that the former East wasn't given a fair shake, and as someone who traveled through the former east, I tend to agree with that assessment, given that many factories and similar assets ended up in "Western" hand for a symbolic price and that Easterners were frequently excluded from the bidding process since the previous system of government there didn't allow them to accumulate the wealth required to participate in the bidding process. But I've also seen a lot of dynamic people who took the plunge to start their own business and otherwise take risks they were hitherto unaccustomed to. The current mixed airport management is a disaster though, and a sizable embarrassment that can't seem to get it straight. Financially even the best management team would have a hard time at this point to turn a profit, even without Covid.

NeBaNi wrote:
TXL also has an amazing Besucherterasse - where you can go on the roof of the terminal and watch planes. I've spend many an afternoon taking pictures from there. I'll be sad to see it close. My profile picture is actually a shot from there!


FWIW, SXF also has a visitor deck with a decent view. Nice profile pic, I miss seeing the AB 330s at TXL. I'm sure they would have looked good at BER as well.
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Wed May 06, 2020 4:00 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's an aspect no one has thus far mentioned: is it safe to be in this new terminal?

Given the multitude of items that were such a disaster from the design phase of the airport, and given how numerous the MAJOR items to be fixed were, and given how long the building sat empty while seemingly no one could even come up with a plan to fix things, how can one be sure that something wasn't forgotten?

This won't stop me from using the new BER (is that still the code for the new airport?), but given what happened at Dusseldorf airport in 1996, I will always wonder if there's something that was missed. But like Denver International's delays and somewhat bumpy start (thanks, United, for that ridiculous baggage system you made us all pay for!), time passes and future generations will adapt quickly to the building, and the delays will be joked about.


I think it's likely quite the opposite. This airport has been gone over with such a fine-toothed comb that I expect it's far safer than most airport terminals, especially older ones.


Over time, I have no doubt that not only are you correct, and the fiascos of its construction will fade as the airport proves itself to be exactly what Berlin and Brandenburg need. But as a.netters who have followed the saga for so long, it will be a weird experience upon our first visit!
 
ramsesp
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 9:31 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's an aspect no one has thus far mentioned: is it safe to be in this new terminal?


As mentioned before the terminal has been examined over and over again; no airport in the world is checked in this deep, I think (btw:it's the the same with the 737Max, if it's fly again).
I also believe that this airport even at the beginning of all these delays and the postponed openings was much safer than 80% of the airports worldwide, not only in "shithole" countries. Imagine a fire in LGA or MDW and you know what I mean......
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 9:41 am

ramsesp wrote:
I also believe that this airport even at the beginning of all these delays and the postponed openings was much safer than 80% of the airports worldwide


What?! :eyepopping: The airport had 550.000 faults!

Mayor Wowereit and colleagues from local, regional and federal government had to announce, in a humiliating press conference, the grand opening could not take place.
Suddenly, the astonishing scale of the new airport's problems emerged.
New construction boss Hartmut Mehdorn made a list of all the faults and failures, Mr Delius tells me.
"Small ones like the wrong light bulbs to big ones like all the cables are wrong," he says.
The final total was 550,000 - more than a half a million problems to fix.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48527308
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
fraT
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 9:49 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
ramsesp wrote:
I also believe that this airport even at the beginning of all these delays and the postponed openings was much safer than 80% of the airports worldwide


What?! :eyepopping: The airport had 550.000 faults!

Mayor Wowereit and colleagues from local, regional and federal government had to announce, in a humiliating press conference, the grand opening could not take place.
Suddenly, the astonishing scale of the new airport's problems emerged.
New construction boss Hartmut Mehdorn made a list of all the faults and failures, Mr Delius tells me.
"Small ones like the wrong light bulbs to big ones like all the cables are wrong," he says.
The final total was 550,000 - more than a half a million problems to fix.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48527308


Although I totally agree that the whole BER saga is a total embarrassment, I am pretty sure that you would find thousands of faults in every other airport (new and old) if you would search for them as they did in Berlin.
Again, I don't want to claim, that everything is now perfect but I agree that in terms of safety, you should be on the safe side.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 10:09 am

fraT wrote:

Although I totally agree that the whole BER saga is a total embarrassment, I am pretty sure that you would find thousands of faults in every other airport (new and old) if you would search for them as they did in Berlin.
Again, I don't want to claim, that everything is now perfect but I agree that in terms of safety, you should be on the safe side.



Well I don't think there's any airport or airport engineer in the world that could come up with this

Safety inspectors discovered concerning issues with the fire safety and more importantly, with the smoke exhaust systems that had been built. Engineers determined that the fire protection flaps known as ‘dampers’ had been installed without a permit, or seemingly, common-sense. The design had been to exhaust smoke during an emergency downwards, under the airport’s floors. The only reason this didn’t work in testing is because smoke rises.


Or with this:
* 90,000 meters of cables were incorrectly installed
* Several escalators were too short
* Thousands of light bulbs run non-stop because officials can’t work out how to turn them off
* Hundreds of freshly planted trees had to be chopped down because they were the wrong type
* The airport’s roof was twice the authorized weight


source

Surely, mistakes are made everywhere (Hello CDG's terminal 2E) but not even being able to place an escalator correctly..... Image
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
zippy
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 10:52 am

MartijnNL wrote:
airhansa wrote:
I've been through a number of airport that have bag checks at the gate such as Schipol.

Schiphol doesn't have that anymore, luckily.


Unless you're American, we still get gate screened on Delta in addition to what passes for centralized screening. Give me TXL any day over that nonsense.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 11:43 am

zippy wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
airhansa wrote:
I've been through a number of airport that have bag checks at the gate such as Schipol.

Schiphol doesn't have that anymore, luckily.


Unless you're American, we still get gate screened on Delta in addition to what passes for centralized screening. Give me TXL any day over that nonsense.


That has nothing to do with AMS, that's a requirement of the US Department of Homeland Security and applies to all flights operated by DL/AA/US from any non-US destination. If you're flying with KL or DY to JFK for instance you only got the standard security checks.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
airhansa
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 12:15 pm

I swear to that Singapore also has gate side security gates.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 1:13 pm

airhansa wrote:
I swear to that Singapore also has gate side security gates.

They do, except terminal 4.
 
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fraspotter
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 1:33 pm

hpff wrote:
Airbus747 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, pretty gutted that I won't get a chance to fly into TXL one more time. Had two "last trips" planned this summer through there. It had it's frustrating moments, but I love the brutalist architecture and relative convenience compared to mega airports with centralized security. Won't miss the LH lounges, though.


Are there any airports left around the world which have the "decentralized" security (security only during boarding, basically)?


Haven’t been to MCI in years but that had it 10 years ago, I think they have made minor modifications since


Is MCI's setup really the same? The very nature of MCI's terminals make it inefficient to have centralized security but have several smaller security checkpoints every few gates in order to enter the waiting area vs. security at the jetway before boarding. Granted I've only ever flown into MCI a few times but that was a very strange experience. Not to mention the walkways between gates post security literally had people walking through the waiting areas of other gates in between. That new terminal can't come soon enough.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 4:28 pm

ua900 wrote:
Source in the penultimate paragraph (German only): https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/bris ... 84234.html
For years and years, that airport authority had one airport that makes good money (TXL) and another one that made some money (SXF) and every last penny is diverted into a construction site that likely never will make money (BER). They can blame predecessors that mismanaged for say 25 years, Covid and whatever else. But at the end of the day, they are also sitting on a time bomb since they will have problems making the payments on all the accumulated interest even in the best of times.


I think that this newspaper paragraph is a bit unfair. Of course they made money at TXL: it was an extremely old facility on which they did minimal maintenance and that they ran far above its rated capacity. Clearly, if you took a 40-year-old aircraft, flew it at extremely high utilization, and scrimped on maintenance, you'd make a lot of money. It's just quite obviously not sustainable. Berlin needed new facilities, one way or another. That could have been new terminals at TXL and SXF, with all the attendant costs of a split operation, but that wouldn't have been cheap either (after all, the problems at BER were with the terminal, not the runways and other infrastructure).
 
mandargb
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 5:24 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
TXL probably won't be missed. I'll never forget flying into there on a UA 757 from EWR. That was quite a long flight on a narrowbody plane to begin with, though we were lucky enough to be on the plane for an extra hour or two at EWR after our "on time departure" thanks to EWR's summer transatlantic bank congestion. Once we finally arrived at TXL, there was no quickly getting up and off the plane as might be the case anyplace else in Europe...although I guess waiting in line for customs in the aisle of the airplane and then the jetbridge (since we were processed by two tiny customs booths right at the entrance to the hexagon) was a truly unique experience for a 21st century traveler?

!

Very similar experience.
For me : Replace UA757 with DL767 from JFK obviously.
That was only time we had to stand in aircraft aisels to get out, due to back up at the customs/immigration booth. And the baggage claim is right behind that booth. This was the least walking I have done at international airport from plane to baggage.
Took the TXL bus to local hotels. no issues. I loved it frankly a small airport experience.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu May 07, 2020 6:18 pm

UA900 wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
TXL also has an amazing Besucherterasse - where you can go on the roof of the terminal and watch planes. I've spend many an afternoon taking pictures from there. I'll be sad to see it close. My profile picture is actually a shot from there!


FWIW, SXF also has a visitor deck with a decent view. Nice profile pic, I miss seeing the AB 330s at TXL. I'm sure they would have looked good at BER as well.

Thank you! The one in SXF isn't nearly as nice, you're definitely not as close to the aircraft as you are at TXL. Plus, SXF is a pain to get to from most parts of Berlin anyway.
 
Noray
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 08, 2020 5:24 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's an aspect no one has thus far mentioned: is it safe to be in this new terminal?

Given the multitude of items that were such a disaster from the design phase of the airport, and given how numerous the MAJOR items to be fixed were, and given how long the building sat empty while seemingly no one could even come up with a plan to fix things, how can one be sure that something wasn't forgotten?

This won't stop me from using the new BER (is that still the code for the new airport?), but given what happened at Dusseldorf airport in 1996, I will always wonder if there's something that was missed.

Actually, the Düsseldorf airport fire is one of the deeper reasons for the BER delays, since it resulted in toughened fire protection regulations for new constructions that are harder to meet.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 08, 2020 6:01 pm

Noray wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's an aspect no one has thus far mentioned: is it safe to be in this new terminal?

Given the multitude of items that were such a disaster from the design phase of the airport, and given how numerous the MAJOR items to be fixed were, and given how long the building sat empty while seemingly no one could even come up with a plan to fix things, how can one be sure that something wasn't forgotten?

This won't stop me from using the new BER (is that still the code for the new airport?), but given what happened at Dusseldorf airport in 1996, I will always wonder if there's something that was missed.

Actually, the Düsseldorf airport fire is one of the deeper reasons for the BER delays, since it resulted in toughened fire protection regulations for new constructions that are harder to meet.


If you believe that a fire in 1996 at DUS is a deeper delay of contruction of BER wich started at 2006, than I believe you / they slept 10 years nonstop !
 
Noray
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri May 08, 2020 6:47 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Noray wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Here's an aspect no one has thus far mentioned: is it safe to be in this new terminal?

Given the multitude of items that were such a disaster from the design phase of the airport, and given how numerous the MAJOR items to be fixed were, and given how long the building sat empty while seemingly no one could even come up with a plan to fix things, how can one be sure that something wasn't forgotten?

This won't stop me from using the new BER (is that still the code for the new airport?), but given what happened at Dusseldorf airport in 1996, I will always wonder if there's something that was missed.

Actually, the Düsseldorf airport fire is one of the deeper reasons for the BER delays, since it resulted in toughened fire protection regulations for new constructions that are harder to meet.


If you believe that a fire in 1996 at DUS is a deeper delay of contruction of BER wich started at 2006, than I believe you / they slept 10 years nonstop !

"They" didn't sleep. The criminal trial wasn't concluded before 2001, the civil proceedings lastet until 2006. "They" (the authorities) analyzed the fire, which takes a while, and then started the legislative processes to change the relevant norms and laws. This may take many years in Germany and its 16 states.

Also, after the Düsseldorf fire and the resulting trials, the authorities have become much stricter in supervising the fire protection regulations. On the other hand, the architect of the airport's main building wanted a slender, elegant design, and that didn't allow the placement of the now required smoke extraction machinery on the roof, which created many additional problems (the smoke now has to be extracted downwards).

Here's an article in German from 2016 that connects the story of the Düsseldorf fire with the BER delays.
 
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hic787
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:21 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ce=twitter

Tegel to remain open until at least October now
 
Noshow
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:42 am

That is end of October or early November or whenever BER finally opens.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:26 pm

Noshow wrote:
That is end of October or early November or whenever BER finally opens.

Ha that's a good joke
 
Noshow
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:38 pm

Not my words but the airport director's.
 
TC957
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:10 pm

Noshow wrote:
That is end of October or early November or whenever BER finally opens.

Which year ??
 
Noshow
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:29 pm

Yesterday.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:04 pm

Airbus747 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, pretty gutted that I won't get a chance to fly into TXL one more time. Had two "last trips" planned this summer through there. It had it's frustrating moments, but I love the brutalist architecture and relative convenience compared to mega airports with centralized security. Won't miss the LH lounges, though.


Are there any airports left around the world which have the "decentralized" security (security only during boarding, basically)?


PRG had it when I flew from there in 2018.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Berlin Tegel (TXL) to Close from June 1

Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:29 am

hpff wrote:
Airbus747 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, pretty gutted that I won't get a chance to fly into TXL one more time. Had two "last trips" planned this summer through there. It had it's frustrating moments, but I love the brutalist architecture and relative convenience compared to mega airports with centralized security. Won't miss the LH lounges, though.


Are there any airports left around the world which have the "decentralized" security (security only during boarding, basically)?


Haven’t been to MCI in years but that had it 10 years ago, I think they have made minor modifications since


Are you talking about security at multiple entry points at a terminal? Because if that's what you're talking about, then MCI is still decentralized. Now that I think of it, there are several separate checkpoints at each DFW terminal.
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