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LAXintl
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United announces Q1 2020 Results

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:07 pm

United Airlines reported Q1 2020 financial results with a net loss of $1.7 billion, and an adjusted net loss of $639 million, adjusted diluted loss per share of $2.57, and adjusted pre-tax loss of $1.0 billion.

Total liquidity was approximately $9.6 billion, including $2 billion under its undrawn revolving credit facility. The company currently expects daily cash burn to average between $40 million and $45 million during Q2.

Earnings call tomorrow AM @ 0900CT.

https://hub.united.com/2020-04-30-unite ... 86449.html
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ITSTours
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:28 pm

So they are not on the verge of bankruptcy then.
 
tphuang
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:29 pm

Good job by UA cutting it's cash burn. That's what happens when you cancel 90% of your capacity. Consider how much higher their normal cost is over WN, their project cash burn for Q2 is only 30% more.

And also a big contrast to AA, who expects to be burning 70 million a day.

I think UA will a lot smaller a year from now, but Kirby has done enough to keep them from the courts.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:23 pm

ITSTours wrote:
So they are not on the verge of bankruptcy then.


No, not really, but you should read the press release and the notes. Terms of their revolving credit agreement require them to keep $2.0 Billion available. They talk about liquidity available under CARES Act loans but they have to put up collateral for that, cutting sharply into unencumbered assets. Focus on the details more than the headline of $9.6 billion.
 
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adamblang
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:24 pm

Some detail on the one-time charges:

Severance and benefit costs: During the three months ended March 31, 2019, the company recorded $2 million of severance and benefit costs related to a voluntary early-out program for its technicians and related employees represented by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and management severance of $4 million.

Gains (loss) on sale of other assets and other special charges: During the three months ended March 31, 2020, the company recorded a $10 million one-time special charge related to the wind-down of the capacity purchase agreement with Trans States Airlines, LLC and $3 million for costs related to the transition of fleet types within other regional carrier contracts.

Nonoperating credit loss on BRW term loan and related guarantee: During the three months ended March 31, 2020, the company recorded a $697 million expected credit loss allowance for the BRW term loan and related guarantee. United recorded the allowance based on United's assessment of Avianca Holdings S.A.'s ("AVH") financial uncertainty due to its high level of leverage and the fact that the airline has currently ceased operations due to the COVID-19 pandemic. BRW's equity and BRW's holdings of AVH equity are secured as a pledge under the BRW term loan, which is currently in default.

Unrealized (gains) losses on investments, net: During the three months ended March 31, 2020, the company recorded losses of $319 million primarily for the $293 million decrease in the market value of its investment in Azul Linhas Aéreas Brasileiras S.A. ("Azul") and $24 million for the decrease in fair value of the AVH share call options, AVH share appreciation rights, and AVH share-based upside sharing agreement (collectively, the "AVH Derivative Assets") that United obtained as part of the BRW term loan agreement and related agreements with Kingsland Holdings Limited.
 
SWALUV
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 2:25 pm

Looks like there quick thinking is working.. Good on them on getting costs cut as much as they have.
 
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malaysia
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 7:19 pm

I just saw on the news. They are going all FT-PT apparently.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/transpo ... -paychecks
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jetmatt777
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 7:21 pm

Despite securing billions government funding to secure payroll (they used last year's payroll data to get grants) United has cut all full time airport operations agents to part-time effective 5/24. This completely goes against the spirit of the CARES act and bailout money. This was just announced internally. Some posters here failed to believe me that they would do this.
 
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janders
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 7:44 pm

These extraordinary times call for aggressive actions to manage costs and conserve cash.
Unfortunately, the airlines hardly need thousands of folks when there is no flight activity to support. Short of furlough which is not allowed, making them PT seems like logical move and there are no restrictions on how companies staff FT vs PT.
The CARES money was not going to fully cover payroll cost anyhow, United still had a multi-billion dollar hole to fix regardless to make payroll - this does that partially.
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jetmatt777
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:06 pm

The entire purpose of the bailout was to keep people off of unemployment - now people will be filing for reduced hours which further burdens the unemployment line.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:08 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
The entire purpose of the bailout was to keep people off of unemployment - now people will be filing for reduced hours which further burdens the unemployment line.


Yes, but the CARES act did not provide enough to do this for every employee. If United wants to stay in business in the future they will have to make cuts to jobs and pay.
 
jayunited
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:12 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Despite securing billions government funding to secure payroll (they used last year's payroll data to get grants) United has cut all full time airport operations agents to part-time effective 5/24. This completely goes against the spirit of the CARES act and bailout money. This was just announced internally. Some posters here failed to believe me that they would do this.


I owe you an apology you were correct I was given wrong information, United will cut frontline employees from 40 hour per week to 30 hours per week.

Listening to the call this morning and the town hall this afternoon it seem as though legal loophole UA is using is because the CARES act funds UA received only covered around 60% of UA's payroll cost not 100% of the cost . On the town hall today Kirby stated that if UA continued to pay union employees their full paychecks UA would run out of money in 3 months.

I am sorry for doubting you it wasn't the information I had at the time and I thought UA had received the full CARES amount request to cover payroll cost. We did not get the full amount requested if we had then they would not be able to reduce the amount of hours union employees are being paid.

Listening to both the call and the town hall although UA is not on the verge of bankruptcy it became clear that we are only a few missteps or a few mistakes away from bankruptcy.

I really hope all employees take the time to listen to at the very least the town hall in its entirety because the reality of what we received is different from what the government would have people believe. Employees can then do the math themselves and see where the truth lies and the truth is the government did not cover 100% of the payroll as was promised.
Last edited by jayunited on Fri May 01, 2020 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
invertir
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:12 pm

How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:18 pm

Its indeed unfortunate, but as I posted in the previous thread the CARES Act money is billions short of what is needed to keep everyone full time and full pay till September 30.

As Greg Hart's announcement today indicated the company tried hard to work something out with the IAM which might have not have been as drastic, but was unable. As result had to take the meat cleaver out and chop everyone. While the CBA allows the company to reduce everyone to 20 hours, they committed to offering many 30 hours. Note also said there would be additional changes announced Monday that would affect management also.

Its pretty clear from today's earnings call the company is making an all-out effort to save itself and must be fanatical about reducing cash bleed as essentially zero net revenue is coming in the door.
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tphuang
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:22 pm

invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?

Few things. A lot of the losses were not operational stuff for both UA and AA. Now, UA still lost more than DL, but they had lower margins to begin with and the downturn in TPAC hit UA harder than DL/AA.

What is important to see is that UA thinks it can lower burn rate to 40 to 45 million a day this quarter. They are looking at $30 million for Q3, which is really good.

And looks like they have a plan to furlough a lot of people and lower cash burn to $20 million a day in Q4.

All around, they seem to be planning for no demand for a long time. People should compare this to AA to see how much faster AA will burn through its pile of cash.

UA actually came into this about as screwed as AA, but the effort they have put into reduce cash burn is way ahead of AA and WN.
Last edited by tphuang on Fri May 01, 2020 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:23 pm

Image

Response from congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... ater&ifg=1
 
strfyr51
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:26 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Despite securing billions government funding to secure payroll (they used last year's payroll data to get grants) United has cut all full time airport operations agents to part-time effective 5/24. This completely goes against the spirit of the CARES act and bailout money. This was just announced internally. Some posters here failed to believe me that they would do this.

Part time is 30 hours per week or less. they're not taking hourly pay cuts, nor benefits. Just fewer working hours. Might be great? But all in all ? It ain't bad.
when I retired I was concerned how I would make ends meet. But then? I discovered how much LESS I spent on Gas, Tires and Auto upkeep, clothes cleaning, shirt Laundry, and my dress shoes have been polished and in the closet for 2 years now I go to lunch occasionally but hang out at home mostly and I'm rarely not busy doing something. My worst problem was getting a regular sleep schedule as I worked rotating shifts my last 16 years.
 
jayunited
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:26 pm

invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?


Im not a financial analyst and Kirby did explain this during the town hall the difference between UA's $1.7 billion and then the adjusted $639 million.

Don't kill me if I don't explain this correctly but UA loss $639 million but we now have assets that are practically worthless like our China slots and Hong Kong routes that have to be written down. The way I understood him was the disparity between the two numbers is the assets that for now have no value. Kirby also suggest that DL has assets that temporarily have no value. From my limited understanding Kirby did suggest UA losses were closer to Delta's losses that would be $534 million DL to UA's $639 million. However what we need to know from Delta is what is the total lost for the Q1 when taking into account assets that temporarily no longer have any value.
 
tphuang
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:35 pm

jayunited wrote:
invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?


Im not a financial analyst and Kirby did explain this during the town hall the difference between UA's $1.7 billion and then the adjusted $639 million.

Don't kill me if I don't explain this correctly but UA loss $639 million but we now have assets that are practically worthless like our China slots and Hong Kong routes that have to be written down. The way I understood him was the disparity between the two numbers is the assets that for now have no value. Kirby also suggest that DL has assets that temporarily have no value. From my limited understanding Kirby did suggest UA losses were closer to Delta's losses that would be $534 million DL to UA's $639 million. However what we need to know from Delta is what is the total lost for the Q1 when taking into account assets that temporarily no longer have any value.

right, once DL marks down some of the real losses they took on all their investments in different airlines, their losses would be huge. The operational losses between UA and DL wasn't as large.
 
ordbosewr
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:45 pm

tphuang wrote:
jayunited wrote:
invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?


Im not a financial analyst and Kirby did explain this during the town hall the difference between UA's $1.7 billion and then the adjusted $639 million.

Don't kill me if I don't explain this correctly but UA loss $639 million but we now have assets that are practically worthless like our China slots and Hong Kong routes that have to be written down. The way I understood him was the disparity between the two numbers is the assets that for now have no value. Kirby also suggest that DL has assets that temporarily have no value. From my limited understanding Kirby did suggest UA losses were closer to Delta's losses that would be $534 million DL to UA's $639 million. However what we need to know from Delta is what is the total lost for the Q1 when taking into account assets that temporarily no longer have any value.

right, once DL marks down some of the real losses they took on all their investments in different airlines, their losses would be huge. The operational losses between UA and DL wasn't as large.


For DL, one example is Virgin. If you can't determine a price of an asset, then you have 2 options, first, you write the asset down to zero (very conservative financial approach) or, second, you wait to a point when you can determine a price then you take the impairment charge then.
That may the issue that DL is dealing with and is going with option 2, whereas, UA with both Azul and Avianca, UA just said they are worthless and write them off. I mean Avianca was mess before this whole pandemic so the likelihood of them making to the other side is very slime and if they do, UA probably will lose everything.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 8:51 pm

I posted this breakdown United provided previously detailing how the CARES money is far short of what is required to fully cover payroll.


o In 2019, from April 1 through September 30th, we spent $6.5 billion on labor-related-expenses.
o This year, to cover the same April through September time period, we expect to receive a $3.5 billion grant from the federal government to cover our labor costs.
o We’ll also receive a low-interest $1.5 billion loan as a part of the payroll support program which will help bridge the gap, but this is money that has to be re-paid.
o If you apply our 2019 labor-related costs to the same period this year, there is a gap of billions of dollars, even with the CARES Act assistance.
o And we don’t have the same level of money coming in: we’re flying a schedule that is down 90 percent with just a handful of paying customers on each flight, fulfilling our obligation under the CARES Act to maintain connectivity among nearly all our domestic destinations. And we expect demand to be down through 2020 and likely into next year.
o That’s why we are evaluating every potential cost-saving measure between now and September 30, while at the same time planning for our total payroll costs – and the size of our airline – to be smaller starting as early as October 1.
o Our conversations with our union labor partners are part of our broader effort to reduce costs between now and September 30. No decisions have been made in respect to represented employees.
o These aggressive efforts to manage the impact of the worst financial crisis our company has ever faced will position United to survive and most importantly bounce back quickly.
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MSPNWA
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 9:15 pm

invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?


Other posters have already mentioned the two largest factors (UA's write-downs and historically 1Q being stronger for DL). But another factor, albeit a smaller one, is that many DL employees took a significant involuntary pay cut in 1Q with the loss of profit sharing due to no profit to share. UA also has a sharing program, but theirs is proportionally much smaller. Therefore DL gained more cost savings than UA. I'd say that was around a $150-200m difference based on last year's profit sharing. It illustrates the risk of allowing a significant portion of your overall compensation to come in the form of a profit sharing bonus. It's great for the company. Clearly not so great for the affected workers.
 
FSDan
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 10:01 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?


Other posters have already mentioned the two largest factors (UA's write-downs and historically 1Q being stronger for DL). But another factor, albeit a smaller one, is that many DL employees took a significant involuntary pay cut in 1Q with the loss of profit sharing due to no profit to share. UA also has a sharing program, but theirs is proportionally much smaller. Therefore DL gained more cost savings than UA. I'd say that was around a $150-200m difference based on last year's profit sharing. It illustrates the risk of allowing a significant portion of your overall compensation to come in the form of a profit sharing bonus. It's great for the company. Clearly not so great for the affected workers.


Good point about the impact of profit sharing. I'd imagine the other majors might try to follow DL in making profit sharing a larger overall part of the compensation picture going forward - in a cyclical industry that would appear to help the longevity of the airlines.

The direct impact to employees at a company like DL is obviously negative, but we'll have to see over the coming months and years whether the long term impact is positive or negative. If DL's profit sharing scheme gives them added resiliency that UA and AA don't have and they're able to avoid bankruptcy, that might be a net positive for the employees.
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tphuang
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 11:00 pm

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... ronavirus/

analysts were a lot more comforted by UA's cautious approach and open mind here.

I agree with Brett Snyder that LAX will look really different coming out of this.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Fri May 01, 2020 11:23 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?


Other posters have already mentioned the two largest factors (UA's write-downs and historically 1Q being stronger for DL). But another factor, albeit a smaller one, is that many DL employees took a significant involuntary pay cut in 1Q with the loss of profit sharing due to no profit to share. UA also has a sharing program, but theirs is proportionally much smaller. Therefore DL gained more cost savings than UA. I'd say that was around a $150-200m difference based on last year's profit sharing. It illustrates the risk of allowing a significant portion of your overall compensation to come in the form of a profit sharing bonus. It's great for the company. Clearly not so great for the affected workers.


Oh, that is a tortured logic: You don't want a generous profit-sharing formula because they might take it away in the future. Maybe that's the product of decades of toxic NW labor relations.

This goes back a couple of years. If people can update the DL/UA/AA formulas, please do.

For more context, here’s how the profit sharing arrangements at American, Delta, and United work (as you’ll see, not only does Delta have the biggest profits, but they also share the highest percent of them with employees):

Excluding special items and profit sharing, Delta earned $6.5 billion in pretax profits in 2017, while American earned $4.1 billion and United earned $3.5 billion, according to APA figures. Delta is sharing $1.1 billion while United will share $349 million and American will share $241 million.

Delta shares 10% of pretax profits up to $2.5 billion and 20% above $2.5 billion, APA said. United shares 10% up to a 6.9% pre-tax margin and 20% above that margin. American shares 5% of its pretax profit.


https://onemileatatime.com/delta-profit-sharing/

DL accrued $220 million in profit sharing 1Q19 on IBIT of $946 million. UA accrued $33 million on IBIT of $367 million. People can compare wage rates by seniority (and aircraft if applicable) across carriers. You can be sure the unions do.

Good luck trying to spin how recording much bigger losses, faster, is better for employees. CARES Act PSP money isn't going to last forever.
 
winginit
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Sat May 02, 2020 2:33 am

tphuang wrote:
jayunited wrote:
invertir wrote:
How is it that Delta lost $534 million in Q1 and United lost $1.7bn and AA $2.2bn. Are they that better run?


Im not a financial analyst and Kirby did explain this during the town hall the difference between UA's $1.7 billion and then the adjusted $639 million.

Don't kill me if I don't explain this correctly but UA loss $639 million but we now have assets that are practically worthless like our China slots and Hong Kong routes that have to be written down. The way I understood him was the disparity between the two numbers is the assets that for now have no value. Kirby also suggest that DL has assets that temporarily have no value. From my limited understanding Kirby did suggest UA losses were closer to Delta's losses that would be $534 million DL to UA's $639 million. However what we need to know from Delta is what is the total lost for the Q1 when taking into account assets that temporarily no longer have any value.

right, once DL marks down some of the real losses they took on all their investments in different airlines, their losses would be huge. The operational losses between UA and DL wasn't as large.


Is that going to be a huge write-down though? Yes, the VS stake ($360M) could be severely diluted to the point of needing a majority write down if VS changes ownership or goes bust, but would they divest any of the others in AM, LA, MU, KE, AFKL, etc? I'm not sure I see them offloading those especially at a time like this, and they seem able at this point to raise the necessary long-term capital through slots, gates, aircraft, etc.
 
jayunited
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Re: United announces Q1 2020 Results

Sat May 02, 2020 1:33 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Oh, that is a tortured logic: You don't want a generous profit-sharing formula because they might take it away in the future. Maybe that's the product of decades of toxic NW labor relations.

This goes back a couple of years. If people can update the DL/UA/AA formulas, please do.

For more context, here’s how the profit sharing arrangements at American, Delta, and United work (as you’ll see, not only does Delta have the biggest profits, but they also share the highest percent of them with employees):

Excluding special items and profit sharing, Delta earned $6.5 billion in pretax profits in 2017, while American earned $4.1 billion and United earned $3.5 billion, according to APA figures. Delta is sharing $1.1 billion while United will share $349 million and American will share $241 million.

Delta shares 10% of pretax profits up to $2.5 billion and 20% above $2.5 billion, APA said. United shares 10% up to a 6.9% pre-tax margin and 20% above that margin. American shares 5% of its pretax profit.


https://onemileatatime.com/delta-profit-sharing/

DL accrued $220 million in profit sharing 1Q19 on IBIT of $946 million. UA accrued $33 million on IBIT of $367 million. People can compare wage rates by seniority (and aircraft if applicable) across carriers. You can be sure the unions do.

Good luck trying to spin how recording much bigger losses, faster, is better for employees. CARES Act PSP money isn't going to last forever.



Lets not get bogged down in profit sharing I don't know if that has any barring on this at all. Also people are focusing on the $1.7 billion that number includes assets that UA believes no longer have value temporarily (China slots and Hong Kong routes) and some assets UA believes have no value at all.

Lets focus on the Q1 operation numbers United's operation lost $639 million dollars while Delta operation lost $534 million the difference is $105 million dollars. The reason this is good news for UA is because people thought UA would be more heavily impacted because COVID-19's huge impact on long haul international travel. Domestic travel and short haul international routes like Mexico, Caribbean, Central America did not start to feel the impact of COVID-19 until the second week of March. The Domestic and short haul international market is where Delta shines and they are much stronger than UA in these markets verses the long haul international routes. Delta for years has been more profitable than UA so it should come as no surprise that DL made more money than UA in Q1. Look at WN's numbers and what WN was saying back in late February and early March, for the most part WN was unaffected by COVID-19 during February and early March because domestically demand remained strong and people were still traveling to spring break hot spot. (Remember at one point UA was flying 2 77HD's on our IAH-CUN route and for a short period of time during February those flights were full as people canceled long haul international travel and rebooked domestically or decided to go to Mexico, Caribbean or Central America.) If the bottom had never fell out of the domestic, Mexico, and Caribbean markets WN probably wouldn't have recorded a lost in Q1 and DL's lost would have been significantly less.

Delta may decided to write down assets they feel no longer have value and they may not. However if we focus on the operational numbers alone, $105 million dollar difference between DL and UA is probably the best outcome UA could have hoped for. The truth is it could have been a lot worst for UA especially when you look at our exposure in the long haul international markets.

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