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ITSTours
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Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:27 pm

Asiana Airlines pilots may lose Airbus A380 certifications next month due to lack of flights
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_ ... 42524.html

Pilots need to make three takeoffs and landings within 90 days for type certification.
Asiana (and Korean Air) doesn't fly A380 for an obvious reason.
Simulator training is OK but Asiana doesn't have an A380 simulator. They used to rely on Thai sim.
But Thailand has banned entry for all non-resident foreigners.
Asiana asked Korean Air to borrow their sim but KE denied because they need to train their own pilots.

So Asiana may be forced to fly its A380 empty.
They may be operating some belly cargo flights with A380 (ICN-TPE OZ0711) but the schedule doesn't seem to be final.

Meanwhile the S Korean government is asking Thai government to allow the Asiana pilots to go through sim training without the quarantine.
Also Asiana is looking into let some pilots' certification expire.

My question: can Asiana try BA, LH or EK for help? Or is there any airline who wants to throw away its A380 sim?
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:32 pm

I have to imagine all of those airlines are in countries with similar restrictions.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:27 pm

Doing 40-minute loops in an A380 to keep pilots current sounds like a pretty big expense. What's the re-training procedure for Asiana pilots if they lose A380 currency? (They'll want to keep a few pilots available if only to have pilots upon restart, or to relocate aircraft.)
 
RossW
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:28 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
I have to imagine all of those airlines are in countries with similar restrictions.


I don't believe the UK or Germany have any entry restrictions at the moment? Getting there might be the biggest issue
 
airhansa
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 12:18 am

Of all the places to get help from, surely Airbus themselves are the best option?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 12:54 am

Shoot rollers, four hours and 3 crews current. Four hours would be about 16 touch and goes out of an ILS pattern, probably 22-24 on visuals.
 
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zeke
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 11:04 am

ITSTours wrote:
Asiana Airlines pilots may lose Airbus A380 certifications next month due to lack of flights


There is no loss of certificate, they would just be a loss of currency.

The priority would be for the training pilots as they can get the regular pilots current again on the aircraft.

I don’t think this would be a priority for the airline. A more constructive use of time would be to retrain them on the A330. Don’t think the A380 would be needed for some time.
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mmo
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 12:43 pm

I have to ask, So what? As Zeke points out, they don't lose their certificate, but they lose their currency. There are sims that could be used to keep pilots current. It is much cheaper and accomplishes the same thing as bounces in the aircraft.
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mxaxai
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 1:01 pm

mmo wrote:
There are sims that could be used to keep pilots current. It is much cheaper and accomplishes the same thing as bounces in the aircraft.

As the OP points out, OZ doesn't have access to A380 sims. They used to contract this out to TG but can't go there due to the border closure; meanwhile KE isn't about to share their own sims.

If they really need to, some touch and gos are probably cheaper than almost empty long haul flights. However, it's probably more effective to 'mothball' the crews and bring them back to currency when the A380 is returned to service.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 2:54 pm

zeke wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
Asiana Airlines pilots may lose Airbus A380 certifications next month due to lack of flights


There is no loss of certificate, they would just be a loss of currency.

The priority would be for the training pilots as they can get the regular pilots current again on the aircraft.

I don’t think this would be a priority for the airline. A more constructive use of time would be to retrain them on the A330. Don’t think the A380 would be needed for some time.


Corrections are welcome.

Asiana has A330 and A350 sims so those would be fine.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 2:56 pm

mxaxai wrote:
mmo wrote:
There are sims that could be used to keep pilots current. It is much cheaper and accomplishes the same thing as bounces in the aircraft.

As the OP points out, OZ doesn't have access to A380 sims. They used to contract this out to TG but can't go there due to the border closure; meanwhile KE isn't about to share their own sims.

If they really need to, some touch and gos are probably cheaper than almost empty long haul flights. However, it's probably more effective to 'mothball' the crews and bring them back to currency when the A380 is returned to service.


What would be the retraining procedure?
The Korean articles suggest it would take months, but I don't know it would be true.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 3:10 pm

Not sure if this really matters. Will anyone be flying their A380's again? EK might be the exception but I imagine most will be grounded for at least a year...maybe forever.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 3:35 pm

I work in the flight training department for a major US airline. If one of our pilots lapse for a landings, they just do a 1 day landings class in the simulator. They also do 2 day recurrent trainings every nine months, the second portion (which would be done 9 months after the first portions or 18 after the initial qual course, also resets landings currency.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 3:37 pm

If you don’t have a sim, the only option is the plane IF maintaining currency is important. Probably not in this case
 
mmo
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 4:06 pm

If there is commercial air service and OZ flies there the 380 pilots who need the sim training can go on the Gen Dec. There is no prohibition on crew entering and leaving the country as crew. It is much cheaper than doing bounces in the aircraft.

As for the requalification, it depends on the airline. All the airlines I have worked for 3 and if you count the VVIP, 4 airlines, the retraining is basically a 'warm-up' in the sim and then an OPC. That would be 2 2hour sessions. Not the end of the world. If the 380 looks to be parked for a long time, there is no real reason to maintain currency.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Max Q
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 4:17 pm

Seems hard to believe that KAL doesn’t have the sim availability to rent out at present, just no incentive to
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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ScottB
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 4:34 pm

zeke wrote:
I don’t think this would be a priority for the airline. A more constructive use of time would be to retrain them on the A330. Don’t think the A380 would be needed for some time.


I don't get the urgency, either. By the time OZ actually has a need for the A380 to return to service (if ever) it's exceedingly likely that border restrictions would have been relaxed or eliminated -- arguably the border restrictions would have to go away for passenger traffic to return to levels which would make A380 service economic. There's not much point in expending resources on maintaining crew currency on the A380 when there's no clear timetable for its return to service.
 
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ER757
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 5:06 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
Not sure if this really matters. Will anyone be flying their A380's again? EK might be the exception but I imagine most will be grounded for at least a year...maybe forever.

This is what I was thinking when I read the subject line - I don't see OZ needing that capacity for a long time, if ever
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 5:08 pm

mxaxai wrote:
mmo wrote:
There are sims that could be used to keep pilots current. It is much cheaper and accomplishes the same thing as bounces in the aircraft.

As the OP points out, OZ doesn't have access to A380 sims. They used to contract this out to TG but can't go there due to the border closure; meanwhile KE isn't about to share their own sims.

If they really need to, some touch and gos are probably cheaper than almost empty long haul flights. However, it's probably more effective to 'mothball' the crews and bring them back to currency when the A380 is returned to service.

Then keep the training pilots current.

The problem with low production run aircraft is a lack of flight simulators. Next is engine service options and then MRO options. Either fly the planes or figure out a solution.

Lightsaber
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oldJoe
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 11:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
mmo wrote:
There are sims that could be used to keep pilots current. It is much cheaper and accomplishes the same thing as bounces in the aircraft.

As the OP points out, OZ doesn't have access to A380 sims. They used to contract this out to TG but can't go there due to the border closure; meanwhile KE isn't about to share their own sims.

If they really need to, some touch and gos are probably cheaper than almost empty long haul flights. However, it's probably more effective to 'mothball' the crews and bring them back to currency when the A380 is returned to service.

Then keep the training pilots current.

The problem with low production run aircraft is a lack of flight simulators. Next is engine service options and then MRO options. Either fly the planes or figure out a solution.

Lightsaber


But KAL has a simulator and share the simulator would save costs. A simulator is in no need of a heavy check or run out of FH or FC like the aircraft
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Fri May 01, 2020 11:41 pm

Would it have to be just belly cargo? AC has taken out the seats of several of their 77Ws and are using them for cargo. PPE, which is much of the cargo being moved around these days, is light enough that it wouldn't require reinforced floors.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 12:18 am

oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
As the OP points out, OZ doesn't have access to A380 sims. They used to contract this out to TG but can't go there due to the border closure; meanwhile KE isn't about to share their own sims.

If they really need to, some touch and gos are probably cheaper than almost empty long haul flights. However, it's probably more effective to 'mothball' the crews and bring them back to currency when the A380 is returned to service.

Then keep the training pilots current.

The problem with low production run aircraft is a lack of flight simulators. Next is engine service options and then MRO options. Either fly the planes or figure out a solution.

Lightsaber


But KAL has a simulator and share the simulator would save costs. A simulator is in no need of a heavy check or run out of FH or FC like the aircraft


I agree that KAL sharing the simulator would be the best solution.
Low cost, and much much more environment-friendly.
But KAL is not willing to do so. They say they need to train their own 218 pilots.
But are they really running their sim 24/7?

edit: grammar
Last edited by ITSTours on Sat May 02, 2020 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 12:23 am

YYZLGA wrote:
Would it have to be just belly cargo? AC has taken out the seats of several of their 77Ws and are using them for cargo. PPE, which is much of the cargo being moved around these days, is light enough that it wouldn't require reinforced floors.


Or simply put a box of PPE on each seat and cover them with a net? I remember one airline doing that.
South Korea currently prohibits exports of masks. If the ban gets eased, Asiana can do that, but when?
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 12:26 am

Just ground them until Thailand allows foreign nationals to enter. It isn't like A380's are suddenly in demand.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 5:44 am

ITSTours wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Would it have to be just belly cargo? AC has taken out the seats of several of their 77Ws and are using them for cargo. PPE, which is much of the cargo being moved around these days, is light enough that it wouldn't require reinforced floors.


Or simply put a box of PPE on each seat and cover them with a net? I remember one airline doing that.
South Korea currently prohibits exports of masks. If the ban gets eased, Asiana can do that, but when?


That could work too. I know South Korea is exporting testing kits, but I don't know if there'd be enough in a shipment to fill an A380.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 6:07 am

ITSTours wrote:
[
I agree that KAL sharing the simulator would be the best solution.
Low cost, and much much more environment-friendly.
But KAL is not willing to do so. They say they need to train their own 218 pilots.
But are they really running their sim 24/7?


Korean would allow Asiana’s pilots to requalify in their sim, they can find room, even at 2am.

For a price. They’ve probably quoted OZ a ridiculously high price as they have a monopoly on A380 sims in Korea at the moment. Maybe OZ doesn’t want to lose face and is stubbornly sticking by a plan to do take offs and landings in a real aircraft even if it costs more.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 6:11 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Shoot rollers, four hours and 3 crews current. Four hours would be about 16 touch and goes out of an ILS pattern, probably 22-24 on visuals.


They should be flying a simple visual circuit. Up to 1500’ AGL, turn onto downwind, base turn, configure and roll out on final at 6-800’ AGL. Touch down, T/O flaps and thrust and do it all again.

However given the recent examples of visual approaches by Asiana pilots even with an autopilot engaged they probably wouldn’t dare.

Any pilot who cannot hand fly a simple visual circuit on an aircraft they are endorsed to fly should have their licence pulled.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 6:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Shoot rollers, four hours and 3 crews current. Four hours would be about 16 touch and goes out of an ILS pattern, probably 22-24 on visuals.


They should be flying a simple visual circuit. Up to 1500’ AGL, turn onto downwind, base turn, configure and roll out on final at 6-800’ AGL. Touch down, T/O flaps and thrust and do it all again.

However given the recent examples of visual approaches by Asiana pilots even with an autopilot engaged they probably wouldn’t dare.

Any pilot who cannot hand fly a simple visual circuit on an aircraft they are endorsed to fly should have their licence pulled.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 10:10 am

For a typical touch-‘n-go session on the A380 you’d load up around 90 tonnes. Add all the maintenance effect onto it and you have to start financially balancing one against the other.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 10:50 am

SierraPacific wrote:
Just ground them until Thailand allows foreign nationals to enter. It isn't like A380's are suddenly in demand.


Or any country with an A380 sim for that sake. Positioning all crews in business class to France or Germany (there must be A380 sims there) is much cheaper than doing circuits.

Asiana won't need those A380s until the borders open anyway.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 11:32 am

ITSTours wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Then keep the training pilots current.

The problem with low production run aircraft is a lack of flight simulators. Next is engine service options and then MRO options. Either fly the planes or figure out a solution.

Lightsaber


But KAL has a simulator and share the simulator would save costs. A simulator is in no need of a heavy check or run out of FH or FC like the aircraft


I agree that KAL sharing the simulator would be the best solution.
Low cost, and much much more environment-friendly.
But KAL is not willing to do so. They say they need to train their own 218 pilots.
But are they really running their sim 24/7?

edit: grammar


hmm seems unlikely to me that KAL needs those simulators all the time, but they're bought enough capacity for their own crews.
So, maybe it could get a bit crowded if you add the Asiana-crews.

But, I think KAL would like to see Asiana fail and be the only legacy carrier in South-Korea.
So, why would they go out of their way and help Asiana? Because of the goodness of their hearts?
In the end it is all business and there is nothing wrong with that, in my humble opinion.

If KAL needs government support, the government can probably arrange something for Asiana.
Until then, Asiana needs to figure this out on their own. They might be able to buy some of AF's simulators?
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 6:07 pm

IWMBH wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

But KAL has a simulator and share the simulator would save costs. A simulator is in no need of a heavy check or run out of FH or FC like the aircraft


I agree that KAL sharing the simulator would be the best solution.
Low cost, and much much more environment-friendly.
But KAL is not willing to do so. They say they need to train their own 218 pilots.
But are they really running their sim 24/7?

edit: grammar


hmm seems unlikely to me that KAL needs those simulators all the time, but they're bought enough capacity for their own crews.
So, maybe it could get a bit crowded if you add the Asiana-crews.

But, I think KAL would like to see Asiana fail and be the only legacy carrier in South-Korea.
So, why would they go out of their way and help Asiana? Because of the goodness of their hearts?
In the end it is all business and there is nothing wrong with that, in my humble opinion.

If KAL needs government support, the government can probably arrange something for Asiana.
Until then, Asiana needs to figure this out on their own. They might be able to buy some of AF's simulators?


KAL has already received government support of 1.2 trillion won ($971 million).

Your mentioning reminds me of Asiana's in-flight meal fiasco. Korean Air at that time also denied Asiana's asking of help. Of course at that time KAL had no obligation to do so.

I think COVID-19 is different but whatever.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sat May 02, 2020 6:13 pm

VSMUT wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Just ground them until Thailand allows foreign nationals to enter. It isn't like A380's are suddenly in demand.


Or any country with an A380 sim for that sake. Positioning all crews in business class to France or Germany (there must be A380 sims there) is much cheaper than doing circuits.

Asiana won't need those A380s until the borders open anyway.


I don't know about AF, but BA certainly has the sim and the British government doesn't even ban the entry to the country. Asiana can try BA first.

Or if they have it AF may try to sell A380 sim to OZ.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 12:04 am

Sure sounds like KE simply does not want to help OZ. I cannot imagine that keeping 218 pilots current would fully occupy a simulator. As a WAG, let’s say that each pilot needs 5 hours every three months. That makes 1090 hours for all pilots every 3 months. There are approximately 2160 hours in 3 months. That would mean to keep the simulator busy all the time would mean each pilot would get nearly 10 hours. Giving some allowance for maintenance on the simulator, let’s say 9 hours. Is that much sim time needed?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 12:10 am

Can GMP/PUS serve A380?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 12:17 am

In terms of OZ, is it possible that the A380s may not return to service with OZ? They really wouldn't fit well in a leaner network, and it may be just wise to end first class completely (the A380s are the only OZ planes with first class).
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 3:57 am

SEPilot wrote:
Sure sounds like KE simply does not want to help OZ. I cannot imagine that keeping 218 pilots current would fully occupy a simulator. As a WAG, let’s say that each pilot needs 5 hours every three months. That makes 1090 hours for all pilots every 3 months. There are approximately 2160 hours in 3 months. That would mean to keep the simulator busy all the time would mean each pilot would get nearly 10 hours. Giving some allowance for maintenance on the simulator, let’s say 9 hours. Is that much sim time needed?


I doubt pilots will be having fun in sims at night. The facily would likely be closed after dark anyways. Of course anything can be solved with money, something that neither have at the moment.
 
hoons90
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 4:02 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Can GMP/PUS serve A380?


Both airports have seen ad-hoc A380 flights in the past. QF has sent some A380s to PUS in the past for repainting.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
VSMUT
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose certifications. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 5:04 am

ITSTours wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Just ground them until Thailand allows foreign nationals to enter. It isn't like A380's are suddenly in demand.


Or any country with an A380 sim for that sake. Positioning all crews in business class to France or Germany (there must be A380 sims there) is much cheaper than doing circuits.

Asiana won't need those A380s until the borders open anyway.


I don't know about AF, but BA certainly has the sim and the British government doesn't even ban the entry to the country. Asiana can try BA first.

Or if they have it AF may try to sell A380 sim to OZ.


I was thinking more about Airbus' own simulators.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 10:54 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Sure sounds like KE simply does not want to help OZ. I cannot imagine that keeping 218 pilots current would fully occupy a simulator. As a WAG, let’s say that each pilot needs 5 hours every three months. That makes 1090 hours for all pilots every 3 months. There are approximately 2160 hours in 3 months. That would mean to keep the simulator busy all the time would mean each pilot would get nearly 10 hours. Giving some allowance for maintenance on the simulator, let’s say 9 hours. Is that much sim time needed?


I doubt pilots will be having fun in sims at night. The facily would likely be closed after dark anyways. Of course anything can be solved with money, something that neither have at the moment.

If KE is not running the sim at night you make my point. They could offer the night use to OZ instead of just saying no.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BravoOne
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Sun May 03, 2020 2:47 pm

Using another operators simulator can be problematic in the current environment. The respetive airlines regulator needs to approve the device for training, and as such needs to do a validation flights(s) to confirm compliance. This can be time consuming and expesnsive and with all the current obstacles, maybe overwheming. Using the KE sim would eliminate that in all likelihood, but traveling outside of Korea to another training center might not be viable solution at this hour.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Wed May 06, 2020 8:35 am

So... they ARE doing the ferry flight. OZ801C-OZ807C ICN-ICN HL7625. 7 flights in one day.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/hl7625
 
ITSTours
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Re: Asiana A380 pilots may lose currency. Flying A380 for belly cargo?

Thu May 07, 2020 9:14 am

Second day of flights carrying nothing. Same HL7625 A380.

Yesterday they did 9 flights, so 3 pilots. They finished 8 flights today. Most likely they'll do one more to get 3 more pilots done.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos