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xwb565
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QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 2:41 am

Reportedly caused by weather- a 787 nosed into the side of an a350 at Doha.

https://twitter.com/CranfieldA/status/1 ... 65/photo/1

The damage on the a350 could be substantial given the angle of the impact. How difficult of a fix is the likely to be given the composite construction involved?
 
JohanTally
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 2:48 am

xwb565 wrote:
Reportedly caused by weather- a 787 nosed into the side of an a350 at Doha.

https://twitter.com/CranfieldA/status/1 ... 65/photo/1

The damage on the a350 could be substantial given the angle of the impact. How difficult of a fix is the likely to be given the composite construction involved?


Hard to tell but looks like it might have hit the cargo door primarily which could actually make repairs less extensive but this is just speculation
 
xwb565
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 6:47 am

 
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ikolkyo
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 6:59 am

That video is wild, plane just turns and moves in the opposite direction of the wind? Unless I’m blind and mistaking the wind direction. Could also not be a perfectly level surface or something, idk.
 
CO777DAL
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 7:17 am

That is one hell of a storm. I can't imagine how fast the wind was blowing to completely turn a 787 and make it move! I would love to know the wind speed! Amazing video.
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TUGMASTER
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 7:20 am

ikolkyo wrote:
That video is wild, plane just turns and moves in the opposite direction of the wind? Unless I’m blind and mistaking the wind direction. Could also not be a perfectly level surface or something, idk.


Wind has hit the tail causing the spin of the 787, with not much weight on the nose, and the MLG acting as the pivot point.
 
cesar666cu
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 7:40 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
That video is wild, plane just turns and moves in the opposite direction of the wind? Unless I’m blind and mistaking the wind direction. Could also not be a perfectly level surface or something, idk.


Wind has hit the tail causing the spin of the 787, with not much weight on the nose, and the MLG acting as the pivot point.



Additionally the wind is providing some lift
 
pugman211
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 7:50 am

And that's why you chock each wheel front and rear. Crazy spin though.

Looking at the speed of impact, hopefully not much damage. The nose cone should take most of the damage I would of thought.
 
bx737
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 9:17 am

I remember seeing something similar in Dublin between 2 FR 737-200s. A strong gust of wind, blew one into another. The aircraft were chocked, but weren’t fueled so they were very light
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 9:50 am

You're all seeing this wrong. This was the moment this 787 had been waiting for! He had found the courage to finally express his love for that A350 and to kiss her on the cheek in the pouring rain! :couple:


Airplanes can fall in love too! And they lived happily ever after :cloudnine:
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TUGMASTER
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 10:25 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
You're all seeing this wrong. This was the moment this 787 had been waiting for! He had found the courage to finally express his love for that A350 and to kiss her on the cheek in the pouring rain! :couple:


Airplanes can fall in love too! And they lived happily ever after :cloudnine:



Il have a puff of that please
 
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zeke
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 10:42 am

xwb565 wrote:

The damage on the a350 could be substantial given the angle of the impact. How difficult of a fix is the likely to be given the composite construction involved?


Would be more concerned with the 787 where it hit there is a lot of avionics and front pressure bulkhead.


xwb565 wrote:


Why didn’t the brakes stop it from moving
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PANAMsterdam
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 12:08 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
You're all seeing this wrong. This was the moment this 787 had been waiting for! He had found the courage to finally express his love for that A350 and to kiss her on the cheek in the pouring rain! :couple:

Airplanes can fall in love too! And they lived happily ever after :cloudnine:


Il have a puff of that please



Puff of fun and positive thinking :)
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
cskok8
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 12:38 pm

Now where to find spare aircraft while the two lovebirds are being repaired?
 
TropicalSky
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 12:41 pm

 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 12:47 pm

Park brake released?
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jayunited
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 12:48 pm

zeke wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
Why didn’t the brakes stop it from moving


When I was working the ramp there were certain fleet types where after chocking all the wheels the pilots would release the brakes. United some years ago had a freak storm move right over ORD and quite a few mainline and UAX aircraft were damaged even though all the wheels were chocked the brakes were released. Looking at the video I'm thinking the breaks were not set and once the wind pivoted the aircraft the chocks were useless and without brakes the aircraft was free to roll.

After the incident at ORD UA changed their SOP, whenever strong storms are forecast brakes on all aircraft must be set in addition to chocking all wheels.
 
JeremyXWB
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 12:55 pm

xwb565 wrote:


Look, I'm no aerodynamics expert, and I could believe that a plane being turned due to strong wind gusts, but I just find it weird that the 787 is moving towards the A350 where judging from the video, is the direction the wind is blowing from, basically traveling into the wind :boggled:

I don't mind being corrected though
 
StTim
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 1:16 pm

JeremyXWB wrote:
xwb565 wrote:


Look, I'm no aerodynamics expert, and I could believe that a plane being turned due to strong wind gusts, but I just find it weird that the 787 is moving towards the A350 where judging from the video, is the direction the wind is blowing from, basically traveling into the wind :boggled:

I don't mind being corrected though


Exactly what I thought. The 787 moved against the wind.
 
CALMSP
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 1:18 pm

JeremyXWB wrote:
xwb565 wrote:


Look, I'm no aerodynamics expert, and I could believe that a plane being turned due to strong wind gusts, but I just find it weird that the 787 is moving towards the A350 where judging from the video, is the direction the wind is blowing from, basically traveling into the wind :boggled:

I don't mind being corrected though


it seems we all agree with that. very odd.

RIP to the people who will be deported back to their home country after this!!
 
bravotango75
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 1:23 pm

While not quite as dramatic as the Qatar video, I do recall this clip of a Westjet 737 being blown off its jetway at Halifax.
https://youtu.be/nrl3ex7w6nA
 
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Polot
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 1:25 pm

CALMSP wrote:
JeremyXWB wrote:
xwb565 wrote:


Look, I'm no aerodynamics expert, and I could believe that a plane being turned due to strong wind gusts, but I just find it weird that the 787 is moving towards the A350 where judging from the video, is the direction the wind is blowing from, basically traveling into the wind :boggled:

I don't mind being corrected though


it seems we all agree with that. very odd.

RIP to the people who will be deported back to their home country after this!!


My guess is there was a slight incline, the pushing of the plane around gave it some forward momentum (brakes not set), and the plane rolled into the A350 with the wind merely slowing it down and not strong enough to stop the plane.
 
DFW17L
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 1:45 pm

Looks to me the 787 thought it was a Land Shark.

Image
 
Dalmd88
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 1:58 pm

zeke wrote:
xwb565 wrote:

The damage on the a350 could be substantial given the angle of the impact. How difficult of a fix is the likely to be given the composite construction involved?


Would be more concerned with the 787 where it hit there is a lot of avionics and front pressure bulkhead.


xwb565 wrote:


Why didn’t the brakes stop it from moving

Parking brakes never stay set for very long. They tend to bleed down after a plane sits idle for a while. That is why planes need to be tied down during high wind events. One air base I worked at had a C-130 weather vane like that and backed tail first into the side of a hangar. The plane had come back late at night and the ground crew decided to go against protocol and not tie it down. Every other plane in the squadron was tied down with no damage.
 
B787register
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 2:14 pm

Do we know which aircraft registrations are involved?
David C
 
B787register
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 2:17 pm

Got the 787 reg - but not the a350
A7-BCT - 788
David C
 
WayexTDI
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 4:03 pm

zeke wrote:
xwb565 wrote:

The damage on the a350 could be substantial given the angle of the impact. How difficult of a fix is the likely to be given the composite construction involved?


Would be more concerned with the 787 where it hit there is a lot of avionics and front pressure bulkhead.


xwb565 wrote:


Why didn’t the brakes stop it from moving

Aren't the brakes released usually when the plane is parked for a long time? Especially on a plane with electrical brakes, how do you keep them on?
 
xwb777
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 6:46 pm

Image


Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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DocLightning
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 7:17 pm

zeke wrote:

Why didn’t the brakes stop it from moving


Don't the brakes depressurize after some time powered down?
-Doc Lightning-

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zeke
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 10:51 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Aren't the brakes released usually when the plane is parked for a long time? Especially on a plane with electrical brakes, how do you keep them on?


Would have thought they were like truck brakes, compressed air opens truck brakes, I would have thought electricity would be needed to release the park brake.

DocLightning wrote:

Don't the brakes depressurize after some time powered down?


They are electric
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
n729pa
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 10:58 pm

They are clearly not exercising social distancing precautions are they!

Some storm though it has to be said.
 
TKA380
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Fri May 01, 2020 11:22 pm

I didn’t realise Doha could have such rough weather!
 
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DocLightning
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 3:35 am

zeke wrote:
They are electric


OK, do they discharge (or whatever it's called)?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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737max8
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 4:06 am

B787register wrote:
Got the 787 reg - but not the a350
A7-BCT - 788


Curious what the A350 reg is, flew one of their A359s.

Well there's 2 less planes to fly right now grounded due to "MX"
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A220 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A339 A343 A346 A359 A388
 
reltney
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 4:22 am

OMG, you non pilots crack me up! The plane should naturally want to point into the wind...positive dynamic stability. . the 787 had no problem doing that. When the wind is strong enough...not a chock or parking brake can save it.

Learn aerodynamics, it will help explain what happened...

Cheers
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 4:44 am

StTim wrote:
Exactly what I thought. The 787 moved against the wind.


The wind thing makes sense. It looks like what you do when you want to tack a sailboat into the wind. I am sure it seems counter-intuitive at first, but it is actually not hard to do.




DocLightning wrote:
zeke wrote:
They are electric


OK, do they discharge (or whatever it's called)?


Other direction. Losing the charge locks the brakes in place.

And without regard to the charge, on the 787, the brakes increase in pressure over time, depending not on absolute time, but temperature. As they cool, the pressure will increase.





TKA380 wrote:
I didn’t realise Doha could have such rough weather!


That astonished me too.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
Theseus
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 7:32 am

cskok8 wrote:
Now where to find spare aircraft while the two lovebirds are being repaired?


Nowhere, there are no passengers anyway...
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 8:02 am

cskok8 wrote:
Now where to find spare aircraft while the two lovebirds are being repaired?

Why would they need to? World air traffic down 90%+.....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
n797mx
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 8:51 am

LAX772LR wrote:
cskok8 wrote:
Now where to find spare aircraft while the two lovebirds are being repaired?

Why would they need to? World air traffic down 90%+.....


Both passengers affected by this incident must be devistated.

:duck:
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 10:01 am

If you look at the picture the nose of the 787 has blown into the cargo door of the 350. So it might simply be a case of repairing radome on the 787 and cargo door of the 350.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
AeroVega
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 12:28 pm

reltney wrote:
OMG, you non pilots crack me up! The plane should naturally want to point into the wind...positive dynamic stability. . the 787 had no problem doing that. When the wind is strong enough...not a chock or parking brake can save it.

Learn aerodynamics, it will help explain what happened...


Please enlighten us how aerodynamics makes a plane move forward after having turned into the wind. A link to an explanation of the underlying physical principals would be appreciated.
 
raylee67
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 1:05 pm

This definitely help the aviation world get rid of some unwanted capacity temporarily
xwb777 wrote:

Image


Is it just the angle of the photo or is it real? Seems that the 787 is closer to the ground than the A350?
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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redcap1962
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 1:37 pm

AeroVega wrote:
reltney wrote:
OMG, you non pilots crack me up! The plane should naturally want to point into the wind...positive dynamic stability. . the 787 had no problem doing that. When the wind is strong enough...not a chock or parking brake can save it.

Learn aerodynamics, it will help explain what happened...


Please enlighten us how aerodynamics makes a plane move forward after having turned into the wind. A link to an explanation of the underlying physical principals would be appreciated.


May I help?

http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2 ... -does.html

Vertical stabilizer and for a small amount also fuselage acting as sail.
This is your pilot speaking. Welcome to flight one from here to there. We'll be flying at a height of ten feet, going up to twelve and a half feet if we see anything big. My copilot today is a flask of coffee.

Eddie Izzard
 
Theseus
Posts: 265
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 2:03 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Is it just the angle of the photo or is it real? Seems that the 787 is closer to the ground than the A350?


It is. But, like you, I realized 'thanks' to these pictures that the difference was greater than I thought.
In fact the picture up-thread (accessible via the twitter link) seems even more impressive to me in that regard.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 3:30 pm

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Aren't the brakes released usually when the plane is parked for a long time? Especially on a plane with electrical brakes, how do you keep them on?


Would have thought they were like truck brakes, compressed air opens truck brakes, I would have thought electricity would be needed to release the park brake.

Air brakes on trucks are not exactly like that. Most axles have a dual chamber canister: one for parking brake, one for normal service brake.
When all compressed air is released, the parking brake chamber has a spring that automatically sets the brake on (if properly adjusted and the pads/shoes not too worn); when the vehicle is in movement, that chamber is pressurized to release the parking brake. It's an ON-OFF portion.
The second chamber is the service (foot) brake; it's pressurized by the foot pedal and is a progressive portion.

If the 787 electric brakes were of the same principle, they would probably overheat from the permanent powering (brakes off) during taxi.
I don't know if someone can chime in as to how the brakes work on the 787.
 
144modeller
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 4:09 pm

redcap1962, thanks for the excellent article on tacking into the wind.
However, there are two problems that it doesn't solve. First, the boat relies on the shape of the sail, which the 787 doesn't have. Second, why didn't the wind, acting on the tail, spin the plane completely round to face directly into the wind, as in a weather vane?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1706
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Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 5:31 pm

redcap1962 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
reltney wrote:
OMG, you non pilots crack me up! The plane should naturally want to point into the wind...positive dynamic stability. . the 787 had no problem doing that. When the wind is strong enough...not a chock or parking brake can save it.

Learn aerodynamics, it will help explain what happened...


Please enlighten us how aerodynamics makes a plane move forward after having turned into the wind. A link to an explanation of the underlying physical principals would be appreciated.


May I help?

http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2 ... -does.html

Vertical stabilizer and for a small amount also fuselage acting as sail.

That would explain if the plane had lifted off the ground (and we all - I hope... - know how that works).
Still doesn't explain how it moved forward; the forces generated by the wind over the wings would have lifted the plane, not moved it forward. The forward component is non-existent.
 
airboeingbus
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:38 pm

Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 6:03 pm

Anybody else notice how much taller the A350 is compared to the 787? i've never noticed it before but it's really apparent in those photos!
 
redcap1962
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:26 am

Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 6:04 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
redcap1962 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

Please enlighten us how aerodynamics makes a plane move forward after having turned into the wind. A link to an explanation of the underlying physical principals would be appreciated.


May I help?

http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2 ... -does.html

Vertical stabilizer and for a small amount also fuselage acting as sail.

That would explain if the plane had lifted off the ground (and we all - I hope... - know how that works).
Still doesn't explain how it moved forward; the forces generated by the wind over the wings would have lifted the plane, not moved it forward. The forward component is non-existent.


The wind may have changed direction in the "right" moment - maybe just for a few seconds. This is very common in a thunderstorm.
This is your pilot speaking. Welcome to flight one from here to there. We'll be flying at a height of ten feet, going up to twelve and a half feet if we see anything big. My copilot today is a flask of coffee.

Eddie Izzard
 
Jomar777
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: QR 787/a350 ground incident

Sat May 02, 2020 6:11 pm

144modeller wrote:
redcap1962, thanks for the excellent article on tacking into the wind.
However, there are two problems that it doesn't solve. First, the boat relies on the shape of the sail, which the 787 doesn't have. Second, why didn't the wind, acting on the tail, spin the plane completely round to face directly into the wind, as in a weather vane?


Slightly wild guess but I would gather than it tried to do just that (make the aircraft face it to the wind) but it would not be (given the aircraft overall design (landing gear, etc...) plus whatever was holding it at park ferme at that time) a full spin - rather a circle of a certain diameter... The A350 ended up in the way. If the B788 was alone, it would have turned full circle...

As everyone knows, DOHA is home to QR so, with the blockade plus COVID19 around, it probably did not take longer for them to fetch some spare aircraft for the journeys affected although the Airport was already shut because of bad weather.

Additionally, Doha, is famed for dry sunny weather but it has some days in the year with these freak storms where people are advised to stay at home by the Government.

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