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Nicknuzzii
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United exercises options for 8 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 1:29 pm

In Q1 2020 United ordered 8 787-10s. The airline says that the 787 will serve as their workhorse of their long haul fleet in the future. It is presumptuous to say these aircraft will be based in ORD, EWR, and SFO. With confirmed options included it brings UA’s total to 15 78X’s that are yet to be delivered.

Mods please change the title to 8!

https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/12 ... 83392?s=21
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 1:41 pm

Wow. Surprising but great news for Boeing and United. I anticipate more of these for the 789/78J.
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Antaras
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Seems like UA still have enough money.
By the way, welcome UA to the "Club of carriers who want some more planes amid Covid-19" with Vietnam Airlines, Wizz Air and airBaltic :duck:
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Polot
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 1:55 pm

I think your title is correct- UA apparently ordered 7 787-10s. They still have one remaining on order (one was delivered in April and not yet reflected on Boeing’s site) which would give them 8 to be delivered, apparently all in 2021? I’m not sure where you are getting 15 78X to be delivered to UA including this order- You might be including some 789s in there. There is the possibility that UA ordered more than 7 though, the source is just getting 8 from current balance + 7.

Anyways this is something (additional 787-10) that has been rumored for awhile in the company, a bit surprised that they would exercise now unless options/rights were about to expire.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:01 pm

The tweet does mention 7 new orders, and 8 787-10 deliveries for 2021.

Since these were Q1 orders it's only possible that these 7 were the 2 separate unidentified orders placed in February. If that's the case these orders were placed before the full worldwide COVID-19 crisis.
 
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PM
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:05 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
The airline says that the 787 will serve as their workhorse of their long haul fleet in the future.


I wonder what that means for the A350s...
 
Cointrin330
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:07 pm

I guess this will allow them to retire some of the oldest 772s. Looks like 1/3 of UA pilots are facing layoffs.
 
Arion640
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:10 pm

As buffet says:

Be greedy when others are fearful.

Must of had a good enough price on these frames!
 
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Polot
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:10 pm

PM wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
The airline says that the 787 will serve as their workhorse of their long haul fleet in the future.


I wonder what that means for the A350s...

Even ignoring the fact that the A350s are delayed to 2027 and this apparent 7 frame 78X order, UA would still have 64 787s vs 45 A350s when all known orders for both are fully delivered.

More 787s were always expected, UA was not going to stagnant their wide body fleet for ~5 years waiting for A350s.
Last edited by Polot on Mon May 04, 2020 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:12 pm

Arion640 wrote:
As buffet says:

Be greedy when others are fearful.

Must of had a good enough price on these frames!

Exactly. Low risk when no one else is buying. Good for UA.

Lightsaber
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drdisque
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:17 pm

I expect 777-200 retirement to be accelerated intensely. Many 777-200ER's configured for long-haul may never come back at all. The 777A's may be parked and operated only when there is demand. The 773's may be sold/negotiated return.
 
codc10
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:17 pm

United disclosed that it confidentially settled with Boeing in the first quarter on compensation for the 737MAX delays. Wonder if this has anything to do with it.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:19 pm

On a sidenote, UA just took delivery of 2 789s within a week just in the second half of April, and a 78X in the first half of April. One of the few airlines taking physical delivery of aircraft anywhere in the world during this crisis.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:24 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
On a sidenote, UA just took delivery of 2 789s within a week just in the second half of April, and a 78X in the first half of April. One of the few airlines taking physical delivery of aircraft anywhere in the world during this crisis.


AA is taking a number of 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft this year and into 2021 as well.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:24 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
I guess this will allow them to retire some of the oldest 772s. Looks like 1/3 of UA pilots are facing layoffs.


Not correct NO furloughs have been announced. There is a lot of bad info out there right now.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:24 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
On a sidenote, UA just took delivery of 2 789s within a week just in the second half of April, and a 78X in the first half of April. One of the few airlines taking physical delivery of aircraft anywhere in the world during this crisis.


AA is taking a number of 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft this year and into 2021 as well.

Yes, they just took a 788.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:25 pm

codc10 wrote:
United disclosed that it confidentially settled with Boeing in the first quarter on compensation for the 737MAX delays. Wonder if this has anything to do with it.


Yes
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CaptainObvious1
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:30 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
I guess this will allow them to retire some of the oldest 772s. Looks like 1/3 of UA pilots are facing layoffs.


Not correct NO furloughs have been announced. There is a lot of bad info out there right now.


Like this thread.

United exercised options on the 787-10's and it was in Q1 prior to the major COVID-19 outbreak in the US.
 
x1234
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:35 pm

UA is the biggest international airline of the US3 and the pioneer of niche routes to both Europe, Africa and Asia. When the COVID is over I hope launches EWR-JNB (SAA is going bankrupt, highest yield in Africa), keeps EWR-CPT and keeps 2x daily SFO-SIN.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:38 pm

CaptainObvious1 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
I guess this will allow them to retire some of the oldest 772s. Looks like 1/3 of UA pilots are facing layoffs.


Not correct NO furloughs have been announced. There is a lot of bad info out there right now.


Like this thread.

United exercised options on the 787-10's and it was in Q1 prior to the major COVID-19 outbreak in the US.


It says that in the description.
 
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Polot
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:40 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
I guess this will allow them to retire some of the oldest 772s. Looks like 1/3 of UA pilots are facing layoffs.


Not correct NO furloughs have been announced. There is a lot of bad info out there right now.

I believe he is referring to this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed ... 1fc0152bf5


Nothing officially announced but that doesn’t mean the airline is not looking into layoffs come Oct 1 when CARE Act provisions end.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 2:46 pm

Polot wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
I guess this will allow them to retire some of the oldest 772s. Looks like 1/3 of UA pilots are facing layoffs.


Not correct NO furloughs have been announced. There is a lot of bad info out there right now.

I believe he is referring to this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed ... 1fc0152bf5


Nothing officially announced but that doesn’t mean the airline is not looking into layoffs come Oct 1 when CARE Act provisions end.


Yes there will be layoffs but no one knows a number.....Forbes sure as hell doesn’t. They got their number from websites with bad info including this one. So writing that 1/3 of the pilots are facing lay-off is irresponsible.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:03 pm

:white:

Per SEC filing

"In the first quarter of 2020, the Company exercised options for the purchase of seven new Boeing 787 aircraft which are expected to be delivered in 2021."

Obviously pre Covid-19 fiasco.
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unnayan
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:27 pm

I wonder if the funding is coming from CARES act whilst they are planning to fire employees... That will be a shame if true....
 
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Revelation
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:42 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
codc10 wrote:
United disclosed that it confidentially settled with Boeing in the first quarter on compensation for the 737MAX delays. Wonder if this has anything to do with it.

Yes

Air Canada made an explicit statement saying its MAX compensation was in the form of discounts on current and future deliveries:

Air Canada has concluded its discussions with Boeing to settle the terms of an arrangement in relation to the grounding of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft. The settlement payments contemplated by the arrangement were made to Air Canada during the fourth quarter of 2019 and during the first quarter of 2020. The compensation is accounted for as an adjustment to the purchase price of current and future deliveries and will flow through Air Canada’s consolidated statement of operations as reduced depreciation expense over the life of the aircraft, and as a reduction to additions to property and equipment on the consolidated statement of cash flow.

Ref: viewtopic.php?p=22195435#p22195181

I imagine UA made a similar deal, but haven't found similar verbiage yet.

Apparently AA, WN, TK, MX also have signed compensation deals ( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1Z618O ).

I imagine someone at Boeing is glad they got this stuff locked down before COVID-19 disrupted global air travel.
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MIflyer12
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:44 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
As buffet says:

Be greedy when others are fearful.

Must of had a good enough price on these frames!

Exactly. Low risk when no one else is buying. Good for UA.

Lightsaber


Anybody know how these are being financed - if it's even in place? It surely isn't from free cash flow through the end of 2021.
 
PRAirbus
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:45 pm

United announced pilot furloughs and base closures and now are adding these planes? Wondering how UA fleet cuts compare to AA/DL.A sad Fall is approaching for US carriers...I suspect there will be another industry bailout
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:47 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Polot wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Not correct NO furloughs have been announced. There is a lot of bad info out there right now.

I believe he is referring to this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed ... 1fc0152bf5


Nothing officially announced but that doesn’t mean the airline is not looking into layoffs come Oct 1 when CARE Act provisions end.


Yes there will be layoffs but no one knows a number.....Forbes sure as hell doesn’t. They got their number from websites with bad info including this one. So writing that 1/3 of the pilots are facing lay-off is irresponsible.


The number is known, both at United and within Treasury. The CARES Act loan applications due 4/30/20 - which UA has submitted - had to show projected headcount through the end of the year. Do you want to bet money that United and Treasury are leak-proof? I wouldn't.
 
flight152
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:50 pm

PRAirbus wrote:
United announced pilot furloughs and base closures and now are adding these planes? Wondering how UA fleet cuts compare to AA/DL.A sad Fall is approaching for US carriers...I suspect there will be another industry bailout

They have not announced furloughs yet.
 
Jefford717
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:51 pm

PM wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
The airline says that the 787 will serve as their workhorse of their long haul fleet in the future.


I wonder what that means for the A350s...


I wonder the same thing. I think it will eventually be canceled. In terms of range the 787-9 can pretty much cover all of UA’s ULR route and it’s much easier to fill. The -10 seems like the perfect plane for transatlantic and US West coast to Japan, Korea and maybe northeast China.
 
Jetty
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 3:55 pm

PRAirbus wrote:
United announced pilot furloughs and base closures and now are adding these planes? Wondering how UA fleet cuts compare to AA/DL.A sad Fall is approaching for US carriers...I suspect there will be another industry bailout

Read the Tweet. Seems like even max 280 characters is too much for most people these days. :banghead: This deal was done in Q1 thus likely BEFORE the heavy impact in the USA of Covid19.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 4:04 pm

LAXintl wrote:
:white:

Per SEC filing

"In the first quarter of 2020, the Company exercised options for the purchase of seven new Boeing 787 aircraft which are expected to be delivered in 2021."

Obviously pre Covid-19 fiasco.



Covid-19 was on the radar as early as mid-January 2020.
Smart move or shot in the foot? Time will tell.

With cheap fuel and used aircraft going for firesale prices, a murky future, it's hard to see how this is a good deal today.
If we had a clearer outlook of demand picking up, sure, but in this environment, even a 75% discount on a new aircraft is not that good a deal.
 
phxa340
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 4:09 pm

Jetty wrote:
PRAirbus wrote:
United announced pilot furloughs and base closures and now are adding these planes? Wondering how UA fleet cuts compare to AA/DL.A sad Fall is approaching for US carriers...I suspect there will be another industry bailout

Read the Tweet. Seems like even max 280 characters is too much for most people these days. :banghead: This deal was done in Q1 thus likely BEFORE the heavy impact in the USA of Covid19.


Congress and the White House have dropped enough hints to know that the airline industry will not receive a second bailout, bailing out the most hated industry in the US ... twice in one year, is a political non starter. Bankruptcy is the next option. But hopefully it gets better.
 
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scbriml
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 4:20 pm

Boeing lists the following UFO orders for 787-10 during 1Q2020:

4 x 787-10 on 7th Feb
3 x 787-10 on 26th Feb
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CriticalPoint
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 4:34 pm

PRAirbus wrote:
United announced pilot furloughs and base closures and now are adding these planes? Wondering how UA fleet cuts compare to AA/DL.A sad Fall is approaching for US carriers...I suspect there will be another industry bailout


NO furloughs have been announced!!!!!

For god sakes people LISTEN TO THE ACTUAL EMPLOYEES
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 4:37 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Polot wrote:
I believe he is referring to this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed ... 1fc0152bf5


Nothing officially announced but that doesn’t mean the airline is not looking into layoffs come Oct 1 when CARE Act provisions end.


Yes there will be layoffs but no one knows a number.....Forbes sure as hell doesn’t. They got their number from websites with bad info including this one. So writing that 1/3 of the pilots are facing lay-off is irresponsible.


The number is known, both at United and within Treasury. The CARES Act loan applications due 4/30/20 - which UA has submitted - had to show projected headcount through the end of the year. Do you want to bet money that United and Treasury are leak-proof? I wouldn't.


I have no don’t the number is known. The point is until something is announced we can’t claim United is laying off pilots.
 
ikramerica
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 4:46 pm

Arion640 wrote:
As buffet says:

Be greedy when others are fearful.

Must of had a good enough price on these frames!

And yet he dumped all the airline stocks.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 5:13 pm

Weren't we all convinced that the 78J was going to take the place of the domestic 77A's at some point. Is this the finalization of that plan? They only have 1 reconfigured 77A at this point so there's not too much waste (vs. the 772's) Figure:

1x HNL>ORD, EWR, IAD, IAH, DEN
1x OGG>ORD, DEN
 
gwrudolph
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 5:15 pm

unnayan wrote:
I wonder if the funding is coming from CARES act whilst they are planning to fire employees... That will be a shame if true....


Since the CARES act money doesn’t even cover the cost of payroll they need to keep on through September 30th in exchange for that money, I would say no, the CARES act funding isn’t being used for aircraft acquisition . . .
 
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janders
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 5:21 pm

codc10 wrote:
United disclosed that it confidentially settled with Boeing in the first quarter on compensation for the 737MAX delays. Wonder if this has anything to do with it.


Not according to their SEC filing.

MAX compensation specifically goes towards MAX price discounts.

In March 2020, the Company entered into a confidential settlement with Boeing with respect to compensation for financial damages incurred in 2019 due
to the grounding of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft. The compensation is in the form of credit memos to be issued at future dates upon the satisfaction of
certain conditions related to aircraft deliveries. The Company plans to account for this settlement as a reduction to the cost basis of future firm order Boeing
737 MAX aircraft deliveries and previously-delivered Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, which is expected to reduce future depreciation expense associated with
these aircraft.


https://ir.united.com/static-files/eb41 ... 69e7f81bc9
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Waterbomber2
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 5:22 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
As buffet says:

Be greedy when others are fearful.

Must of had a good enough price on these frames!

And yet he dumped all the airline stocks.


There's being greedy and there's being a fool.

Even with the grants and loans, many if not most airlines are headed for insolvency (well, with the exception of Lufthansa that may be receiving huge capital injetions), because they will burn through the cash from the loans they are receiving.

As for ordering B787-10's when the virus was a known unknown, and airlines worldwide were starting to cut back on schedules in February due to Covid-19, you can choose for yourself if it's greed or foolishness.
Had they waited a couple more months, they probably could have gotten them for much less and delivered much earlier.
Or saved the cash for the recovery.

Seems like a very poorly timed decision to me.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 5:27 pm

"UAL does expect 16 737-MAX this year and 24 next year (assuming ungrounded), eight more 787-9 this year and eight 787-10 next year."
You are here.
 
Arion640
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 5:54 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
As buffet says:

Be greedy when others are fearful.

Must of had a good enough price on these frames!

And yet he dumped all the airline stocks.


Fair point.
 
ordbosewr
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 6:04 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
As buffet says:

Be greedy when others are fearful.

Must of had a good enough price on these frames!

And yet he dumped all the airline stocks.


There's being greedy and there's being a fool.

Even with the grants and loans, many if not most airlines are headed for insolvency (well, with the exception of Lufthansa that may be receiving huge capital injetions), because they will burn through the cash from the loans they are receiving.

As for ordering B787-10's when the virus was a known unknown, and airlines worldwide were starting to cut back on schedules in February due to Covid-19, you can choose for yourself if it's greed or foolishness.
Had they waited a couple more months, they probably could have gotten them for much less and delivered much earlier.
Or saved the cash for the recovery.

Seems like a very poorly timed decision to me.


I don't think anyone with complete hindsight would make the same decisions today they made in Feb. I think UA is probably in that group as well.

However, I do think this is a little unfair with a blanket judgement that UA made this decision while having NONE of the facts, except they made the agreement sometime in Feb. (already in this thread people made an assumption that this decision was tied to the MAX, but really the only people that know this for sure work for United Airlines. )

I think if anybody had that hindsight then they would be very rich since they would have sold all of the stocks at the same time.

These decisions are not made in a single day, they are made over months of negotiations/etc.
 
avek00
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 6:43 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Seems like a very poorly timed decision to me.


I disagree, the timing was excellent. United eventually needs those birds as replacement for existing birds. Furthermore -- and this is the important part -- as company finances come under increasing pressure later this year and into early 2021, the airline's ability to place such an order will be increasingly limited (doubly so if the airline eventually has to seek Chapter 11 protection). In a nutshell, American financial law takes a dim view towards large transactions in the six months prior to a company debt default (or filing bankruptcy), or which occur during the course of bankruptcy proceedings. This transaction will fall outside that window, so it's one less thing for UA to worry about in the near term.
Live life to the fullest.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 7:31 pm

avek00 wrote:
[In a nutshell, American financial law takes a dim view towards large transactions in the six months prior to a company debt default (or filing bankruptcy), or which occur during the course of bankruptcy proceedings. This transaction will fall outside that window, so it's one less thing for UA to worry about in the near term.


It's a 90-day look-back window for non-insider (UA to Boeing) transactions. Worse, once in Ch 11 UA could cancel the order before final deliveries. Neither the transaction or timing are without risk for both parties.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 7:39 pm

avek00 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Seems like a very poorly timed decision to me.


I disagree, the timing was excellent. United eventually needs those birds as replacement for existing birds. Furthermore -- and this is the important part -- as company finances come under increasing pressure later this year and into early 2021, the airline's ability to place such an order will be increasingly limited (doubly so if the airline eventually has to seek Chapter 11 protection). In a nutshell, American financial law takes a dim view towards large transactions in the six months prior to a company debt default (or filing bankruptcy), or which occur during the course of bankruptcy proceedings. This transaction will fall outside that window, so it's one less thing for UA to worry about in the near term.


That assumes that the aircraft are badly needed and that the recovery will be "V-shaped" or even W-shaped.

I think that many haven't quite understood the history lesson that Warren Buffett was trying to teach us on Saturday aboit the Great Depression.
It took the 20 years from the day he was born to the day he turned 20 for stock markets to get back to the same levels.
It could be 5 or more years before worldwide air traffic comes back to 2019's record levels.
Back when they discovered HIV, they expected to have a vaccine within 24 months.
It's hard to imagine that any new aircraft will be needed until the time either a vaccine is found or the world or sets of countries resolve to eradicate it with a temporary and total lockdown or other measure like distributing reusable hazmat suits to every person.

But supposing that we miracurously do get a swift recovery within 6 months, with the wave of airline bankruptcies lying ahead, plenty of newish aircraft and delivery positions will become available at 70-80% off list prices or 35-50% off residual value for any opportunistic airline in a position to grow.

Whether management will be scrutinised for making an order months before fiing for chapter 11 is one issue.
Whether an order is kept or tossed during a Chapter 11 bankruptcy is a different issue.
 
KFTG
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Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 8:36 pm

PRAirbus wrote:
United announced pilot furloughs and base closures and now are adding these planes? Wondering how UA fleet cuts compare to AA/DL.A sad Fall is approaching for US carriers...I suspect there will be another industry bailout

You have no idea what you are talking about. Aside from the industry bailout round 2.
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 8:40 pm

KFTG wrote:
PRAirbus wrote:
United announced pilot furloughs and base closures and now are adding these planes? Wondering how UA fleet cuts compare to AA/DL.A sad Fall is approaching for US carriers...I suspect there will be another industry bailout

You have no idea what you are talking about. Aside from the industry bailout round 2.


I really didn’t think anything he said was that out there?
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 9:02 pm

How much is this dumping to keep the Charleston line running?

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