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N649DL
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 9:40 pm

Boeing gave them a hell of a deal (again) it's what's more than likely what went down.

Those 787-10s seem to have teething issues, shouldn't they wait or did Boeing give them away essentially for free?
 
Antarius
Posts: 2138
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 10:05 pm

N649DL wrote:
Boeing gave them a hell of a deal (again) it's what's more than likely what went down.

Those 787-10s seem to have teething issues, shouldn't they wait or did Boeing give them away essentially for free?


There are 55 78Js delivered and in service. Doesn't appear the teething issues are materially problematic.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
afgeneral
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 10:16 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
unnayan wrote:
I wonder if the funding is coming from CARES act whilst they are planning to fire employees... That will be a shame if true....


Since the CARES act money doesn’t even cover the cost of payroll they need to keep on through September 30th in exchange for that money, I would say no, the CARES act funding isn’t being used for aircraft acquisition . . .


you could argue that them exercising these options is clear evidence that they did not need any assistance from the government

could have used the money to keep paying salaries
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 10:21 pm

The order was placed before the Pandemic!
 
moyangmm
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 10:45 pm

Pretty smart move by UA. UA needs to start replacing their 772/77E fleet soon. 781 is proven to work extremely well with UA's network and will definitely be the backbone of future UA wide-body fleet. I am sure UA got a good deal for this.

Also, another huge win for Boeing!
 
jfk777
Posts: 7336
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 10:57 pm

drdisque wrote:
I expect 777-200 retirement to be accelerated intensely. Many 777-200ER's configured for long-haul may never come back at all. The 777A's may be parked and operated only when there is demand. The 773's may be sold/negotiated return.


United's 773 are new and acquired as "end of the line" planes with "good" pricing, why would UA return new planes just a few years old ? The world will soon be full of 773 coming of lease and bankruptcy repossesions. Values for 773 have gone in only one direction, way down. With UA's route system there are many places these birds can be used, even if ts primarily for their cargo space. Newark to Tel Aviv or India should be ok. Tokyo and Shanghai could use them too.
 
moyangmm
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 11:06 pm

jfk777 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
I expect 777-200 retirement to be accelerated intensely. Many 777-200ER's configured for long-haul may never come back at all. The 777A's may be parked and operated only when there is demand. The 773's may be sold/negotiated return.


United's 773 are new and acquired as "end of the line" planes with "good" pricing, why would UA return new planes just a few years old ? The world will soon be full of 773 coming of lease and bankruptcy repossesions. Values for 773 have gone in only one direction, way down. With UA's route system there are many places these birds can be used, even if ts primarily for their cargo space. Newark to Tel Aviv or India should be ok. Tokyo and Shanghai could use them too.


Not to mention UA's 77W is their current flagship with brand new J seats. No way UA would return those 77W.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2138
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Mon May 04, 2020 11:18 pm

jfk777 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
I expect 777-200 retirement to be accelerated intensely. Many 777-200ER's configured for long-haul may never come back at all. The 777A's may be parked and operated only when there is demand. The 773's may be sold/negotiated return.


United's 773 are new and acquired as "end of the line" planes with "good" pricing, why would UA return new planes just a few years old ? The world will soon be full of 773 coming of lease and bankruptcy repossesions. Values for 773 have gone in only one direction, way down. With UA's route system there are many places these birds can be used, even if ts primarily for their cargo space. Newark to Tel Aviv or India should be ok. Tokyo and Shanghai could use them too.


Picking nits, but UA has end of the line 77Ws, not 773s.

That said, your post is spot on as 1. the 77Ws are new and part of their Polaris fleet 2. The 78J cannot do what the 77W does, they are complimentary aircraft for different networks.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
N649DL
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 12:57 am

Antarius wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Boeing gave them a hell of a deal (again) it's what's more than likely what went down.

Those 787-10s seem to have teething issues, shouldn't they wait or did Boeing give them away essentially for free?


There are 55 78Js delivered and in service. Doesn't appear the teething issues are materially problematic.


If they already had the orders in place, then why is this news?
 
CX747
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 1:05 am

Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: United orders 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 1:28 am

Antarius wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
I expect 777-200 retirement to be accelerated intensely. Many 777-200ER's configured for long-haul may never come back at all. The 777A's may be parked and operated only when there is demand. The 773's may be sold/negotiated return.


United's 773 are new and acquired as "end of the line" planes with "good" pricing, why would UA return new planes just a few years old ? The world will soon be full of 773 coming of lease and bankruptcy repossesions. Values for 773 have gone in only one direction, way down. With UA's route system there are many places these birds can be used, even if ts primarily for their cargo space. Newark to Tel Aviv or India should be ok. Tokyo and Shanghai could use them too.


Picking nits, but UA has end of the line 77Ws, not 773s.

That said, your post is spot on as 1. the 77Ws are new and part of their Polaris fleet 2. The 78J cannot do what the 77W does, they are complimentary aircraft for different networks.


Word on the street and this is just word on the street, has the fleet looking like 737, 777, 787. Everything else goes away over time. Overall, those three options give you the ability to do small, medium and large. Other smaller fleets for specific routes will just cost too much. You can see AA doing a similar thing but 737/320, 777 and 787.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 1:45 am

CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


The A321 order should be fine. With the rumors about the 757’s having one foot out the door and the large numbers of A319’s and A320’s that will have to be replaced down the line, I’d say goodbye to the A350’s and hello to a substantial A321 order increase.
 
N3340W
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:38 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 2:13 am

So if the 767s stay parked, at least for now, what's the most likely use of the 78Js once traffic starts to pick up? Would both TATL and the PS routes be in play until the A321s arrive?
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 2:28 am

N3340W wrote:
So if the 767s stay parked, at least for now, what's the most likely use of the 78Js once traffic starts to pick up? Would both TATL and the PS routes be in play until the A321s arrive?


ORD:
78J

LHR
BRU
GRU
CDG
LAX
SFO
HNL
 
Antarius
Posts: 2138
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 5:45 am

N649DL wrote:
Antarius wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Boeing gave them a hell of a deal (again) it's what's more than likely what went down.

Those 787-10s seem to have teething issues, shouldn't they wait or did Boeing give them away essentially for free?


There are 55 78Js delivered and in service. Doesn't appear the teething issues are materially problematic.


If they already had the orders in place, then why is this news?


?

I said that there are 55 78Js in operation around the world. Not sure how that pertains to timing of orders
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oschkosch
Posts: 584
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 7:04 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
The order was placed before the Pandemic!



I agree, this was an order placed prior to knowing the changes and implications that Covid-19 gave us all.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
marcelh
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 9:51 am

CX747 wrote:
I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

Well, flying with a 787 and the experience depends on where you are seated. In Y, it's just the "crampliner". I rather go for an old B767 or A330.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 11:01 am

CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1599
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 11:19 am

tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.


Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?
 
CX747
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 11:22 am

tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.


That's with a belief that long thin markets are actually viable. A long thin market by UA in the future would potentially be flown by a 737 MAX. In addition, EWR-CDG is not a long thin market. In a new reality where frequency is no longer king, one flight a day from EWR-CDG is better served by 1 787-10 than 3 757/A321.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 11:56 am

fun2fly wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.


Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?


United because the fiscal ability to fly from both PHL and JFK to DUB will not be there. AA is parking planes at a greater rate than UA. You think they are going to open up two international routes? More than likely, one international route to DUB would be flown from one chosen hub. In some of the markets where DL is reintroducing international service, they are operating to a destination once a week. I truly wish that demand/service slams right back to where it was. Carriers are stating that is not going to happen.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
tphuang
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 12:35 pm

fun2fly wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.


Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?


Lower capacity aircraft with slightly higher unit cost results in much higher rasm. That's why you see in transcon market, narrowbody is winning.

You can either offer better schedule with multiple frequencies or offer same frequency and the lower number of seats will result in your RASM. In longer market, A321XLR would allow you to offer service year round or daily vs seasonal or 3x weekly with a larger aircraft.
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 12:38 pm

tphuang wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
tphuang wrote:

hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.


Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?


Lower capacity aircraft with slightly higher unit cost results in much higher rasm. That's why you see in transcon market, narrowbody is winning.

You can either offer better schedule with multiple frequencies or offer same frequency and the lower number of seats will result in your RASM. In longer market, A321XLR would allow you to offer service year round or daily vs seasonal or 3x weekly with a larger aircraft.


AA flies JFK to DUB on a 772 and PHL to DUB on an A332/333.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1599
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 12:55 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
tphuang wrote:
fun2fly wrote:

Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?


Lower capacity aircraft with slightly higher unit cost results in much higher rasm. That's why you see in transcon market, narrowbody is winning.

You can either offer better schedule with multiple frequencies or offer same frequency and the lower number of seats will result in your RASM. In longer market, A321XLR would allow you to offer service year round or daily vs seasonal or 3x weekly with a larger aircraft.


AA flies JFK to DUB on a 772 and PHL to DUB on an A332/333.


It was an example, plug in any city, LIS or whatever.
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 12:58 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Lower capacity aircraft with slightly higher unit cost results in much higher rasm. That's why you see in transcon market, narrowbody is winning.

You can either offer better schedule with multiple frequencies or offer same frequency and the lower number of seats will result in your RASM. In longer market, A321XLR would allow you to offer service year round or daily vs seasonal or 3x weekly with a larger aircraft.


AA flies JFK to DUB on a 772 and PHL to DUB on an A332/333.


It was an example, plug in any city, LIS or whatever.


UA has the ability to fly to DUB or any city with a 321XLR just as much as AA does.
 
CX747
Posts: 6245
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 1:08 pm

tphuang wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
tphuang wrote:

hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.


Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?


Lower capacity aircraft with slightly higher unit cost results in much higher rasm. That's why you see in transcon market, narrowbody is winning.

You can either offer better schedule with multiple frequencies or offer same frequency and the lower number of seats will result in your RASM. In longer market, A321XLR would allow you to offer service year round or daily vs seasonal or 3x weekly with a larger aircraft.


I think we are slightly talking past one another. You are correct when we look at the economic model of 6-8 months ago. That is not our current climate. Those models are now incorrect, inaccurate and not worth very much. Have you seen the Pittsburgh video shot by the AA pilot when landing there? A mega ton of AA aircraft just sitting, parked on an adjacent taxiway. Not one or two, how about 40-70 A32X aircraft. No work, no flights and no need of a crew.

An overwhelming portion of an airline's fleet at this time is grounded. UA itself is parking their entire 757/767 fleet. The ability to operate, crew and fill multiple daily departures is not there anymore. Therefore, in an instance of long haul flying from EWR-DUB, you will not see 3 daily A321 flights. You will see consolidation on multiple levels. You will now get a once daily EWR-DUB on a 787-10, in lieu of multiple daily EWR departures OR departures to DUB from multiple US cities. Possibly, EWR-DUB will be three times weekly, not even daily. So where multiple 757/767/787 aircraft flew for UA, you may now see just a daily 787.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 1:11 pm

fun2fly wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.


Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?


Every flight is different. With the 78J you have the benefit of PMC pallets. I’ve had flights were the freight paid for the entire flight. The A321 is very nice but with all of the fuel tank modifications, it’s just a flying gas tank, bags, loose freight, and SPD’s only. The mission profile is different.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1599
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 1:16 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

AA flies JFK to DUB on a 772 and PHL to DUB on an A332/333.


It was an example, plug in any city, LIS or whatever.


UA has the ability to fly to DUB or any city with a 321XLR just as much as AA does.


Your point was if UA flies a 787 to a city and AA flies a 321XLR, then AA wins. My point is that is not true. If you have to move 300 pax to one city and you do it on 2 x 321XLR or 1 787, then the 787 wins. You have to look at the network and decide, not the one segment that proves only your point. The true answer is that it depends on the volume, number of gateways and a/c utliization.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 1:58 pm

CX747 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
fun2fly wrote:

Not true in all cases...think about it. If AA flies JFK>DUB and PHL>DUB on the 321 and UA does EWR>DUB on the 78J, who do you think wins?


Lower capacity aircraft with slightly higher unit cost results in much higher rasm. That's why you see in transcon market, narrowbody is winning.

You can either offer better schedule with multiple frequencies or offer same frequency and the lower number of seats will result in your RASM. In longer market, A321XLR would allow you to offer service year round or daily vs seasonal or 3x weekly with a larger aircraft.


I think we are slightly talking past one another. You are correct when we look at the economic model of 6-8 months ago. That is not our current climate. Those models are now incorrect, inaccurate and not worth very much. Have you seen the Pittsburgh video shot by the AA pilot when landing there? A mega ton of AA aircraft just sitting, parked on an adjacent taxiway. Not one or two, how about 40-70 A32X aircraft. No work, no flights and no need of a crew.

An overwhelming portion of an airline's fleet at this time is grounded. UA itself is parking their entire 757/767 fleet. The ability to operate, crew and fill multiple daily departures is not there anymore. Therefore, in an instance of long haul flying from EWR-DUB, you will not see 3 daily A321 flights. You will see consolidation on multiple levels. You will now get a once daily EWR-DUB on a 787-10, in lieu of multiple daily EWR departures OR departures to DUB from multiple US cities. Possibly, EWR-DUB will be three times weekly, not even daily. So where multiple 757/767/787 aircraft flew for UA, you may now see just a daily 787.

and the 1x daily A321 will be more profitable than 1x daily 787. The fewer seat you need to fill when the cost is only a little higher, the fewer seat will generate better margins any day of the week.

You simply cannot replace 757/767s with 787 in many of these markets when demand will be even lower now than before. However, you could replace A330/B787 with A321 in many of the markets that have decreased demand and serve these markets more profitably.
 
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 5:06 pm

tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.

UA has 50 A321XLR on order, along with this order bringing it to 21 78J and 38 789, so it can do either.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_fleet
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airzona11
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 6:37 pm

N649DL wrote:
Boeing gave them a hell of a deal (again) it's what's more than likely what went down.

Those 787-10s seem to have teething issues, shouldn't they wait or did Boeing give them away essentially for free?


All airlines get a hell of a deal, there are very few that buy these planes in large quantities. UA is committed to the 787, why would BA have to give them away for free.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 6:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.

UA has 50 A321XLR on order, along with this order bringing it to 21 78J and 38 789, so it can do either.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_fleet


The way Boeing is going with regards to the Max and NMA, a larger A321 order is possible. Who knows when the Max-9 will return and there’s no news at all with regards to the max-10 progression. My personal opinion, a large top off order for A321’s to deal with the aging A319’s, A320’s, and 757’s.

An A220 order to deal with the 737-700.

Leave the 767’s in the fleet until a real NMA comes to the table.

More 787’s to replace the 777’s

Goodbye A350
 
kaitak744
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 6:53 pm

If UA wants to reduce its wide body fleet, they are in the worst position of the big US3.

They just finished investing into refitting nearly all of their 777-200ERs and 767-300ERs (only 2-3 of each type left for refit). I highly doubt they would want to retire / store these aircraft having just put all that capital into them. 787s are new. 777-300ERs are new. The only wide body aircraft I can see UA removing from the fleet to reduce capacity are the 767-400ERs and 777-200As.


Does anyone know if UA still has plans to begin Polaris refits on the 767-400ERs?
 
JFKalumni
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 6:58 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
If UA wants to reduce its wide body fleet, they are in the worst position of the big US3.

They just finished investing into refitting nearly all of their 777-200ERs and 767-300ERs (only 2-3 of each type left for refit). I highly doubt they would want to retire / store these aircraft having just put all that capital into them. 787s are new. 777-300ERs are new. The only wide body aircraft I can see UA removing from the fleet to reduce capacity are the 767-400ERs and 777-200As.


Does anyone know if UA still has plans to begin Polaris refits on the 767-400ERs?


The 767-400ER refit was suppose to start soon. It’s such a workhorse flying across the Atlantic and conducting charter flights, it’s hard to take it out of the rotation.
 
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 7:16 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
kaitak744 wrote:
If UA wants to reduce its wide body fleet, they are in the worst position of the big US3.

They just finished investing into refitting nearly all of their 777-200ERs and 767-300ERs (only 2-3 of each type left for refit). I highly doubt they would want to retire / store these aircraft having just put all that capital into them. 787s are new. 777-300ERs are new. The only wide body aircraft I can see UA removing from the fleet to reduce capacity are the 767-400ERs and 777-200As.


Does anyone know if UA still has plans to begin Polaris refits on the 767-400ERs?


The 767-400ER refit was suppose to start soon. It’s such a workhorse flying across the Atlantic and conducting charter flights, it’s hard to take it out of the rotation.

Well it seems pretty easy to take it out of rotation, because that’s exactly what they’ve done now.
 
Opus99
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 7:18 pm

Good for united on taking on more -10s. Fantastic aircraft. United have pushed out their 350 order so far they might as well just wait for the re-engined version
 
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 7:39 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
The 767-400ER refit was suppose to start soon. It’s such a workhorse flying across the Atlantic and conducting charter flights, it’s hard to take it out of the rotation.

Well, it once was...
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 7:43 pm

Can't help but wonder how and where UA is going to find the funds to pay for these new widebodies? :scratchchin:
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Max Q
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:23 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Can't help but wonder how and where UA is going to find the funds to pay for these new widebodies? :scratchchin:



Financing is already in place for these airframes, big picture it’s more expensive to to not take delivery


In these challenging times you need the most efficient aircraft available and nothing fits the bill more than this type
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
ordbosewr
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:26 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Can't help but wonder how and where UA is going to find the funds to pay for these new widebodies? :scratchchin:


Same can be said for WN (MAX), DL (all the A220's and A350's) and AA (787's+) [I am sure I am leaving out the full order book of each of these].
All of the major US carriers have planes on order that are planned for delivery.
Every single one of them need financing or CASH.

Kirby already came out and said UA will only take the frames they have the funding available. It is also why UA did the sales lease-back transaction. That allowed them to take possession of the airplane but not incur the large cash hit.
 
jayunited
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:30 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
UA has 50 A321XLR on order, along with this order bringing it to 21 78J and 38 789, so it can do either.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_fleet


The way Boeing is going with regards to the Max and NMA, a larger A321 order is possible. Who knows when the Max-9 will return and there’s no news at all with regards to the max-10 progression. My personal opinion, a large top off order for A321’s to deal with the aging A319’s, A320’s, and 757’s.

An A220 order to deal with the 737-700.

Leave the 767’s in the fleet until a real NMA comes to the table.

More 787’s to replace the 777’s

Goodbye A350[/quote]

Actually there has been news about the MAX-10 progression the first high speed taxi test took place in early March. According to Boeing they are hoping the first flight will take place later this year (I think that is up to the FAA) and Boeing is hoping the MAX-10 will enter revenue service in 2021. However right now it is not clear how close or how far we are away from the MAX being re-certified. It will be interesting to see what impact COVID-19 has had on the process to get the MAX re-certified.
https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max ... taxi-test/

I know this order for 7 additional 78Xs were finalized before COVID-19. United had told employees that after 2020 no new wide-bodies would be arriving before the A359s in 2027. I wonder what changed prior to COVID-19 and what was the plan for 2021? Were we going to retire some older aircraft and use these 7 as replacements or were these 7 going to be used for international growth? I know COVID-19 has shredded those plans but it would be nice to know what those plans were when UA exercised the option for 7 more frames.
 
CX747
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see that for now, more 787s are on the way to UA's fleet. I have flown a large majority of UA's 787-10s and they are fantastic aircraft.

As for the other arguments as to when they were ordered...WHO CARES? New aircraft have been ordered and that's pretty cool. UA ordered A321s before Wuhan tanked the world, think that order is safer than this?....... I hope the overall economy boomerangs back and all the orders are secure. At this time though, no one really knows. You could make an argument that the 787 order is more secure than the A321. Market fragmentation is at a stand still and frequency isn't going to be needed for a while. One large jet a day, going EWR-CDG is much cheaper than 3 757/A321 doing 3 flights.


hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.

UA has 50 A321XLR on order, along with this order bringing it to 21 78J and 38 789, so it can do either.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_fleet


You are absolutely right in that regard. I also think when the A321s get delivered, we will be far from the current economic crisis. My overall point was that right now and for the foreseeable future, market fragmentation is dead. We will more than likely see airlines bring back certain flights, (CDG flying for example) but in a very different format. Rather than using 3 seperate 757/A321s on the route from three seperate airports, we will see consolidation into one CDG route, with one 787, that serves the market maybe three times a week. So where we used to see BOS-CDG, EWR-CDG and IAD-CDG, we may now see just EWR-CDG and that be flown 3 times a week. Less crew, less fuel and an attempt to maximize passenger loads. That trickle down effect could see three 737 flights replaced with 1 A321 and 3 E-190 flights replaced with 1 737 flight.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
jfk777
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:43 pm

United 767 are going to stay around a while, they are paid for and have new seats. They are efficient at flying to Europe with their new Polaris interiors from Newark and Chicago. Eventually UA may do what AA is doing and buy more 787-8 to replace the 767-300ER fleet. Early 777 could certainly be leaving the UA fleet, but the 757 are the first toast if UA is going to burn beard.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:47 pm

As an interim solution could the Max -9s cover for the 757 on routes like EWR - GLA/EDI/KEF/SNN/ARN/OPO next summer?
 
CX747
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Lower capacity aircraft with slightly higher unit cost results in much higher rasm. That's why you see in transcon market, narrowbody is winning.

You can either offer better schedule with multiple frequencies or offer same frequency and the lower number of seats will result in your RASM. In longer market, A321XLR would allow you to offer service year round or daily vs seasonal or 3x weekly with a larger aircraft.


I think we are slightly talking past one another. You are correct when we look at the economic model of 6-8 months ago. That is not our current climate. Those models are now incorrect, inaccurate and not worth very much. Have you seen the Pittsburgh video shot by the AA pilot when landing there? A mega ton of AA aircraft just sitting, parked on an adjacent taxiway. Not one or two, how about 40-70 A32X aircraft. No work, no flights and no need of a crew.

An overwhelming portion of an airline's fleet at this time is grounded. UA itself is parking their entire 757/767 fleet. The ability to operate, crew and fill multiple daily departures is not there anymore. Therefore, in an instance of long haul flying from EWR-DUB, you will not see 3 daily A321 flights. You will see consolidation on multiple levels. You will now get a once daily EWR-DUB on a 787-10, in lieu of multiple daily EWR departures OR departures to DUB from multiple US cities. Possibly, EWR-DUB will be three times weekly, not even daily. So where multiple 757/767/787 aircraft flew for UA, you may now see just a daily 787.

and the 1x daily A321 will be more profitable than 1x daily 787. The fewer seat you need to fill when the cost is only a little higher, the fewer seat will generate better margins any day of the week.

You simply cannot replace 757/767s with 787 in many of these markets when demand will be even lower now than before. However, you could replace A330/B787 with A321 in many of the markets that have decreased demand and serve these markets more profitably.


You certainly can replace a 757/767 with a 787 and do it profitably. Instead of 3 daily EWR-LHR 757 flights, you now have 1 787 flight. All the pax and cargo go on that one flight. That's it, you want to go to Heathrow from Newark, then you get one United option. Maybe you don't even get it daily flight, just three times a week. Not multiple evening departures etc.

UA and other airlines have already done this to an extent. UA is grounding all their 757s. So, you need a route done next week? It is either a 737, 777 or 787. No more 757, so in essence, no more A321 need for right now. You either get it done with a 737 OR you figure out how to do it with a 787.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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Revelation
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 8:56 pm

CX747 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
tphuang wrote:

hmm yes, in a reduced demand market, A321XLR is far more economical than 787. If UA is trying to use 787-9/10 against AA/B6 flying A321XLR in a long thin market out of EWR, it will get killed.

UA has 50 A321XLR on order, along with this order bringing it to 21 78J and 38 789, so it can do either.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_fleet


You are absolutely right in that regard. I also think when the A321s get delivered, we will be far from the current economic crisis. My overall point was that right now and for the foreseeable future, market fragmentation is dead. We will more than likely see airlines bring back certain flights, (CDG flying for example) but in a very different format. Rather than using 3 seperate 757/A321s on the route from three seperate airports, we will see consolidation into one CDG route, with one 787, that serves the market maybe three times a week. So where we used to see BOS-CDG, EWR-CDG and IAD-CDG, we may now see just EWR-CDG and that be flown 3 times a week. Less crew, less fuel and an attempt to maximize passenger loads. That trickle down effect could see three 737 flights replaced with 1 A321 and 3 E-190 flights replaced with 1 737 flight.

I'm not sure how that would work in practice though. My airport of choice for international travel is BOS. If I needed to get to CDG I'm not sure I'd expose myself to the road journey to EWR or a 2nd flight BOS-EWR to get to CDG. I'd prefer to wait for a once weekly CDG-BOS if the real concern is building up pax load to get a 787 full. BOS may still find with light loads they are better off just serving BOS-CDG with narrow body.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
tphuang
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 9:00 pm

CX747 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:

I think we are slightly talking past one another. You are correct when we look at the economic model of 6-8 months ago. That is not our current climate. Those models are now incorrect, inaccurate and not worth very much. Have you seen the Pittsburgh video shot by the AA pilot when landing there? A mega ton of AA aircraft just sitting, parked on an adjacent taxiway. Not one or two, how about 40-70 A32X aircraft. No work, no flights and no need of a crew.

An overwhelming portion of an airline's fleet at this time is grounded. UA itself is parking their entire 757/767 fleet. The ability to operate, crew and fill multiple daily departures is not there anymore. Therefore, in an instance of long haul flying from EWR-DUB, you will not see 3 daily A321 flights. You will see consolidation on multiple levels. You will now get a once daily EWR-DUB on a 787-10, in lieu of multiple daily EWR departures OR departures to DUB from multiple US cities. Possibly, EWR-DUB will be three times weekly, not even daily. So where multiple 757/767/787 aircraft flew for UA, you may now see just a daily 787.

and the 1x daily A321 will be more profitable than 1x daily 787. The fewer seat you need to fill when the cost is only a little higher, the fewer seat will generate better margins any day of the week.

You simply cannot replace 757/767s with 787 in many of these markets when demand will be even lower now than before. However, you could replace A330/B787 with A321 in many of the markets that have decreased demand and serve these markets more profitably.


You certainly can replace a 757/767 with a 787 and do it profitably. Instead of 3 daily EWR-LHR 757 flights, you now have 1 787 flight. All the pax and cargo go on that one flight. That's it, you want to go to Heathrow from Newark, then you get one United option. Maybe you don't even get it daily flight, just three times a week. Not multiple evening departures etc.

UA and other airlines have already done this to an extent. UA is grounding all their 757s. So, you need a route done next week? It is either a 737, 777 or 787. No more 757, so in essence, no more A321 need for right now. You either get it done with a 737 OR you figure out how to do it with a 787.


Not every route has as much demand as EWR-LHR. There are a lot of routes right now like EWR-MAD, where UA probably can't fill daily 787 year round. But if they had A321, they might be able to do it. Lower capacity aircraft that have similar cost will over time beat the higher capacity aircraft.

The advantages that higher capacity aircraft have are:
1) lower cost
2) longer range
3) greater real estate for suites
4) cargo space

With A321XLR, it's CASM is really close to smaller capacity A330NEO and 787s. It's range is long enough to serve the TATL markets. And in terms of real estate, we now have suites on narrowbody that we didn't have before. So aside from cargo, there is really not much other benefits for higher capacity aircraft.

Selling 20 J seats + 140 Y/Y+ seats is a lot easier than selling 40 J seats + 250 Y/Y+ seats.

This same theory works upchain also.
- A380 is no longer needed with 77W + A35J around
- 78X long term will replace 77W, not 77X.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 9:13 pm

UA can quickly divest of the 23 (planned) 77A's + 16 764's + 7 non Polaris (6 x '92/93) = 45 quick wide-body a/c gone. Then it gets tough deciding as you point out, UA did a lot of investment in everything else.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
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Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 9:21 pm

tphuang wrote:
CX747 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
and the 1x daily A321 will be more profitable than 1x daily 787. The fewer seat you need to fill when the cost is only a little higher, the fewer seat will generate better margins any day of the week.

You simply cannot replace 757/767s with 787 in many of these markets when demand will be even lower now than before. However, you could replace A330/B787 with A321 in many of the markets that have decreased demand and serve these markets more profitably.


You certainly can replace a 757/767 with a 787 and do it profitably. Instead of 3 daily EWR-LHR 757 flights, you now have 1 787 flight. All the pax and cargo go on that one flight. That's it, you want to go to Heathrow from Newark, then you get one United option. Maybe you don't even get it daily flight, just three times a week. Not multiple evening departures etc.

UA and other airlines have already done this to an extent. UA is grounding all their 757s. So, you need a route done next week? It is either a 737, 777 or 787. No more 757, so in essence, no more A321 need for right now. You either get it done with a 737 OR you figure out how to do it with a 787.


Not every route has as much demand as EWR-LHR. There are a lot of routes right now like EWR-MAD, where UA probably can't fill daily 787 year round. But if they had A321, they might be able to do it. Lower capacity aircraft that have similar cost will over time beat the higher capacity aircraft.

The advantages that higher capacity aircraft have are:
1) lower cost
2) longer range
3) greater real estate for suites
4) cargo space

With A321XLR, it's CASM is really close to smaller capacity A330NEO and 787s. It's range is long enough to serve the TATL markets. And in terms of real estate, we now have suites on narrowbody that we didn't have before. So aside from cargo, there is really not much other benefits for higher capacity aircraft.

Selling 20 J seats + 140 Y/Y+ seats is a lot easier than selling 40 J seats + 250 Y/Y+ seats.

This same theory works upchain also.
- A380 is no longer needed with 77W + A35J around
- 78X long term will replace 77W, not 77X.


You have a good argument but right now the cargo capacity is keeping many of these airlines afloat. There are many flights where the cargo paid for the entire trip and everything else was pure profit.

EWR-MAD is perfect for a 757 or an A321. Question is are you willing to leave 5 PMC pallets of valuable freight on the ground to right size every aspect of the flight ?
Last edited by JFKalumni on Tue May 05, 2020 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2765
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United exercises options for 7 787-10s

Tue May 05, 2020 9:34 pm

tphuang wrote:
Not every route has as much demand as EWR-LHR. There are a lot of routes right now like EWR-MAD, where UA probably can't fill daily 787 year round. But if they had A321, they might be able to do it. Lower capacity aircraft that have similar cost will over time beat the higher capacity aircraft.

The advantages that higher capacity aircraft have are:
1) lower cost
2) longer range
3) greater real estate for suites
4) cargo space

With A321XLR, it's CASM is really close to smaller capacity A330NEO and 787s. It's range is long enough to serve the TATL markets. And in terms of real estate, we now have suites on narrowbody that we didn't have before. So aside from cargo, there is really not much other benefits for higher capacity aircraft.

Selling 20 J seats + 140 Y/Y+ seats is a lot easier than selling 40 J seats + 250 Y/Y+ seats.

This same theory works upchain also.
- A380 is no longer needed with 77W + A35J around
- 78X long term will replace 77W, not 77X.


You are correct when talking about year around service. In the pre-COVID-19 world UA utilized a 77HD on EWR-MAD from IATA-spring till IATA-winter schedule. However for the entire IATA-winter schedule UA utilized a 763s a difference of more than 130 seats. It is cheaper in the winter for UA to fill a 763 on this route than a 77HD. If UA were to utilize a 77HD on EWR-MAD in the winter even if by some miracle we managed to fill all 366 seats we still would loose money because of lower RASMs. During the winter months or when demand is subdued a A321XLR would beat a 78X any day. However if demand has returned by summer 2022 a single 78X flying EWR-MAD during July would beat 3 A321LXRs flying the same route because the cost associated with operating #A321XLR would be higher than a single 78X. So when looking at year around service UA might have to suspend a route in the winter because a we would loose money flying a wide-body while an airline with a A321LXR might be able to continue to serve the route profitably.

But not to fear UA has 50 A321LXRs on order! I appreciate your point of view tphuang even if in some threads I may disagree with you or not like what you are sayin gone thing is clear you are well informed and know your stuff.

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos