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downdata
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Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 3:17 pm

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/amp/bombar ... ssion=true

If true, it makes sense given the current state of the industry, further delays in the mrj program and potentially closer cooperation with Boeing. Why pay $500m now for the future use of a support structure of a delayed program that they can potentially get from Boeing for a lot less
 
Ishrion
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 3:28 pm

Isn't this the same source that said the United States and Canada would suspend every single flight?
 
morrisond
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 3:37 pm

They could be buying or partnering with EMB instead which makes a lot more sense.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 4:10 pm

It is a rumor posted by FliegerFaust, many of those don't come to pass.

This seemed to be a poor purchase when MHI was doing it, a lot of money to be doing service on a lot of old planes that could be going out to pasture. Who are the customers for the last 14 CRJ's coming off of the line, I am sure BBD already has most of the parts etc well on their way right now. The MRJ doesn't really need this network at the moment as it will be too dilapidated to help once they get either of the Spacejets certified.
 
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 4:56 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
It is a rumor posted by FliegerFaust, many of those don't come to pass.

This seemed to be a poor purchase when MHI was doing it, a lot of money to be doing service on a lot of old planes that could be going out to pasture. Who are the customers for the last 14 CRJ's coming off of the line, I am sure BBD already has most of the parts etc well on their way right now. The MRJ doesn't really need this network at the moment as it will be too dilapidated to help once they get either of the Spacejets certified.


Delta has 3 or 4 that are remaining on the line. As for the remainder, no idea.
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 5:00 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
It is a rumor posted by FliegerFaust, many of those don't come to pass.

This seemed to be a poor purchase when MHI was doing it, a lot of money to be doing service on a lot of old planes that could be going out to pasture. Who are the customers for the last 14 CRJ's coming off of the line, I am sure BBD already has most of the parts etc well on their way right now. The MRJ doesn't really need this network at the moment as it will be too dilapidated to help once they get either of the Spacejets certified.




Jazz has 5 or 6 CRJ900s still on order
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 6:12 pm

downdata wrote:
https://www.fliegerfaust.com/amp/bombardier-2645923174?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&share_id=5520969&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=FliegerFaust&__twitter_impression=true

If true, it makes sense given the current state of the industry, further delays in the mrj program and potentially closer cooperation with Boeing. Why pay $500m now for the future use of a support structure of a delayed program that they can potentially get from Boeing for a lot less


I can 100% see a Boeing deal happening here. Like with the delays on the Max RTS, the virus slowdown could end up a blessing in disguise for the spacejet. As it stands now, they could end up beating EMB to market with a scope compliant 76-seater in the M100. Commit to a 100-seater stretch in a few years and Boeing gets more or less the same package they would had the EMB deal went through, potentially with better terms, and MHI gets a much better network than they would from buying the CRJ.
 
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 6:27 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Isn't this the same source that said the United States and Canada would suspend every single flight?


Exactly.


You can add to the list:
-Q400 sold to China
-CRJ sold to Airbus.

Unless he quotes another article, it's worth zero.


But hey, in the circumstances, all mergers/aquisitions have a 50/50 chance of closing on previously negotiated terms... so it's not impossible, but I would not use him as a credible source.
 
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 7:02 pm

elbandgeek wrote:
downdata wrote:
https://www.fliegerfaust.com/amp/bombardier-2645923174?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&share_id=5520969&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=FliegerFaust&__twitter_impression=true

If true, it makes sense given the current state of the industry, further delays in the mrj program and potentially closer cooperation with Boeing. Why pay $500m now for the future use of a support structure of a delayed program that they can potentially get from Boeing for a lot less

I can 100% see a Boeing deal happening here. Like with the delays on the Max RTS, the virus slowdown could end up a blessing in disguise for the spacejet. As it stands now, they could end up beating EMB to market with a scope compliant 76-seater in the M100. Commit to a 100-seater stretch in a few years and Boeing gets more or less the same package they would had the EMB deal went through, potentially with better terms, and MHI gets a much better network than they would from buying the CRJ.

The whole point of the Mitsu program was to gain independence from Boeing. Having their own support network via the BBD buyout was a part of that picture. It's not really about making money in the near term, it's a long term investment by the Japanese government/industry conglomeration with the long term goal of having more control of their future in the aviation industry
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ac033
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 8:29 pm

How much rumour do we need in this forum?

Faust does not write his articles base on facts or any reliable sources. He posts on his website base on what he thinks, and provide zero credibility. Clickbait headline to get clicks.

He simply copies and pastes news from different new outlets for actual news.
 
YULobserver
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 9:00 pm

ac033 wrote:
How much rumour do we need in this forum?

Faust does not write his articles base on facts or any reliable sources.



Agreed.


Another Quebec Blogger just announced the contrary, deal to close on May 15. He reached out to suppliers and they have confirmed they have been asked the make CRJs parts fast.

No english version yet, but here is the piece:


https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/la-tra ... imminente/



Internal employee feedback from message boards also states that more people should be working on the CRJ next month than before the line was paused due to covid.




There is a reason no one even bothers to quote Faust anymore over here. He was fliegerWrong too often.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 11:40 pm

morrisond wrote:
They could be buying or partnering with EMB instead which makes a lot more sense.


An Embraer + Mitsubishi merger makes no sense, would repeat the same mistake that Boeing made in the past with the 737-600 and 717. Why 2 companies with similar products would merge and make those 2 products compete in house? To be minimally viable the company after the merge would have to kill the 175E2 or the M90. Furthermore, I imagine that the fine for canceling the contract by Bombardier is quite high. Mitsubishi bought the CRJ program to have access to the CRJ customer support infrastructure that was left at Bombardier after the sale of the C-Series to Airbus, why would it undo a deal that is extremely valuable to it?
Last edited by bkmbr on Tue May 05, 2020 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 11:46 pm

So means that... carriers might order the CRJ serie again?
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
bkmbr
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Tue May 05, 2020 11:55 pm

elbandgeek wrote:
I can 100% see a Boeing deal happening here. Like with the delays on the Max RTS, the virus slowdown could end up a blessing in disguise for the spacejet. As it stands now, they could end up beating EMB to market with a scope compliant 76-seater in the M100. Commit to a 100-seater stretch in a few years and Boeing gets more or less the same package they would had the EMB deal went through, potentially with better terms, and MHI gets a much better network than they would from buying the CRJ.


Does it make sense at first glance however, would Boeing be willing to exchange a proven and already operating product for a promise of an airplane that is severely overdue and blew its budget several times? And let me make it clear, I am not saying that SpaceJet is a bad product or inferior to the E2, but there is no denying that it is a product that is long overdue (virtually a decade) and has over-budgeted several times. Facts are facts and besides that let's be honest, we all know that the chance of the M100 actually going into production in the near future is virtually zero.
Unless Boeing profits a lot in this deal as a joint venture or buys the whole program at a very very cheap price (two things I don't see happening because of the Japanese government and the MHI's partners invested in the program) would be a huge bet by Boeing to trade the E2 for an airplane that, for all intents and purposes, it has proved to be a major commercial and engineering failure until now.
 
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
It is a rumor posted by FliegerFaust, many of those don't come to pass.


FliegerFaust is extremely optimistic on Bombardier. They are a fan site, not a news site.

The deal is expected to close 2nd half of 2020. Any business deal could fail today. But a better source is needed before I discuss seriously.

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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 2:00 am

June 1st is the official date Mitsubishi acquires the CRJ program:

https://www.mhi.com/news/story/20200507.html

"Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. and Bombardier Inc. have agreed on a June 1, 2020 closing date for the transaction pertaining to the acquisition of Canadair Regional Jet Program."
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 2:12 am

FliegerFaust was wrong once again. What a surprise... :lol:
Last edited by bkmbr on Thu May 07, 2020 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 2:12 am

Let's wait if this acquisition will be yeeted to the hencoop just like the BOE-EMB acquisition.
P/s: if this acquisition was cancelled, will Bom put the CRJ serie on sale again? There should be some potential customer, for example VN almost order the CRJ900 right before Bom suspended the sell of the serie.

Or maybe some NEO upgrade? Replace the outdated GE CF34 with newer engines such as GE Passport (a downscaled LEAP, seems legit), or PW GTF.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 3:30 am

Antaras wrote:
Let's wait if this acquisition will be yeeted to the hencoop just like the BOE-EMB acquisition.
P/s: if this acquisition was cancelled, will Bom put the CRJ serie on sale again? There should be some potential customer, for example VN almost order the CRJ900 right before Bom suspended the sell of the serie.

Or maybe some NEO upgrade? Replace the outdated GE CF34 with newer engines such as GE Passport (a downscaled LEAP, seems legit), or PW GTF.

I'm curious as to why the comparison. This is the buyer confirming the date.

A few days before the Boeing/Embraer deadline, Embraer was trying to extend the deadline:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKCN2241VU

Way back in later September the EU was playing spoiler on the Boeing/Embraer deal. MRJ/CRJ has no such concerns:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN1W8127

Nothing is 100% certain, but I would bet FliegerFaust wasn't correct this time.

I personally think Mitsubishi is overpaying, but that is their problem.

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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 4:41 am

Antaras wrote:
Let's wait if this acquisition will be yeeted to the hencoop just like the BOE-EMB acquisition.
P/s: if this acquisition was cancelled, will Bom put the CRJ serie on sale again? There should be some potential customer, for example VN almost order the CRJ900 right before Bom suspended the sell of the serie.

Or maybe some NEO upgrade? Replace the outdated GE CF34 with newer engines such as GE Passport (a downscaled LEAP, seems legit), or PW GTF.


Mitsubishi has every intent to kill the CRJ. Outside of fulfilling outstanding orders and keeping the spare parts catalog full, the CRJ is as good as dead. Mitsubishi will be showcasing its MRJ as the best regional in its class. At this point, the E-Jet would be its only competitor. With the E2 not currently meeting scope clauses in the United States, Mitsubishi is maneuvering to corner the market. While everyone was playing checkers Mitsubhsi was playing chess.
 
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 4:56 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Let's wait if this acquisition will be yeeted to the hencoop just like the BOE-EMB acquisition.
P/s: if this acquisition was cancelled, will Bom put the CRJ serie on sale again? There should be some potential customer, for example VN almost order the CRJ900 right before Bom suspended the sell of the serie.

Or maybe some NEO upgrade? Replace the outdated GE CF34 with newer engines such as GE Passport (a downscaled LEAP, seems legit), or PW GTF.


Mitsubishi has every intent to kill the CRJ. Outside of fulfilling outstanding orders and keeping the spare parts catalog full, the CRJ is as good as dead. Mitsubishi will be showcasing its MRJ as the best regional in its class. At this point, the E-Jet would be its only competitor. With the E2 not currently meeting scope clauses in the United States, Mitsubishi is maneuvering to corner the market. While everyone was playing checkers Mitsubhsi was playing chess.

I would rephrase, Mitsubishi is not going to throw good money after bad keeping the CRJ in production. The product is past its shelf life. There is no killing, this is Hospice care.

Mitsubishi wasn't playing chess, they just realized scope wouldn't change, moved the cargo bulkhead in the MR7 and viola! M100. Embraer could make the E2 scope compliant (reduce the wingspan increase and shrink back to old E-175 body length), but has resisted.

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bkmbr
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 5:48 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Mitsubishi has every intent to kill the CRJ. Outside of fulfilling outstanding orders and keeping the spare parts catalog full, the CRJ is as good as dead. Mitsubishi will be showcasing its MRJ as the best regional in its class. At this point, the E-Jet would be its only competitor. With the E2 not currently meeting scope clauses in the United States, Mitsubishi is maneuvering to corner the market. While everyone was playing checkers Mitsubhsi was playing chess.


To do that Mitsubishi need to pass the certification tests first and I doubt that the M100 will be ready for delivery for customers before 2022.
 
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 5:56 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Let's wait if this acquisition will be yeeted to the hencoop just like the BOE-EMB acquisition.
P/s: if this acquisition was cancelled, will Bom put the CRJ serie on sale again? There should be some potential customer, for example VN almost order the CRJ900 right before Bom suspended the sell of the serie.

Or maybe some NEO upgrade? Replace the outdated GE CF34 with newer engines such as GE Passport (a downscaled LEAP, seems legit), or PW GTF.

Mitsubishi has every intent to kill the CRJ. Outside of fulfilling outstanding orders and keeping the spare parts catalog full, the CRJ is as good as dead. Mitsubishi will be showcasing its MRJ as the best regional in its class. At this point, the E-Jet would be its only competitor. With the E2 not currently meeting scope clauses in the United States, Mitsubishi is maneuvering to corner the market. While everyone was playing checkers Mitsubhsi was playing chess.

And, as above, the end game has always been to get their own global service and support network so Japan Inc has a world wide play in aviation all its own. BBD's dumping of the CRJ happened at a fortuitous time for Mitsu and for the employees whose jobs will transition to supporting MRJ.
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 7:17 pm

Amazing to watch as Bombardier finalizes their exit from the Regional Jet market, where they once dominated.

At the risk of thread drift, can anyone point me to how Bombardier fell so far so fast? I know the C Series took much more time and capital than originally planned, but certainly that can't be the only thing that drove Bombardier out of the commercial jet market?
 
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 7:27 pm

AirlineBob wrote:
Amazing to watch as Bombardier finalizes their exit from the Regional Jet market, where they once dominated.

At the risk of thread drift, can anyone point me to how Bombardier fell so far so fast? I know the C Series took much more time and capital than originally planned, but certainly that can't be the only thing that drove Bombardier out of the commercial jet market?


E M B R A E R.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 7:34 pm

Nean1 wrote:
AirlineBob wrote:
Amazing to watch as Bombardier finalizes their exit from the Regional Jet market, where they once dominated.

At the risk of thread drift, can anyone point me to how Bombardier fell so far so fast? I know the C Series took much more time and capital than originally planned, but certainly that can't be the only thing that drove Bombardier out of the commercial jet market?


E M B R A E R.


More specifically, Embraer's E-Jet's family that did not give the CRJ700, CRJ900 and CRJ 1000 any chance of success.
 
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 7:53 pm

bkmbr wrote:
FliegerFaust was wrong once again. What a surprise... :lol:


Let's just wait and see. In these times of turmoil anything can happen.

INFINITI329 wrote:
Mitsubishi has every intent to kill the CRJ. Outside of fulfilling outstanding orders and keeping the spare parts catalog full, the CRJ is as good as dead.


Mitsubishi is developing a scope compliant, fuel efficient, regional jet. Given the choice between purchasing a CRJ or a next-gen M100 it's pretty much a no-brainer for an airline exec. While it does not intend to outright kill the CRJ, Mitsubishi will simply let it fade away.

bkmbr wrote:
... I doubt that the M100 will be ready for delivery for customers before 2022.


The M100, now in the detailed design phase, is not expected to enter service until either 2024 or 2025.

Earlier this week, flight testing of the M90 resumed at Moses Lake on a limited basis. The model has now probably accumulated more than 4,000 flight test hours. Frame JA26MJ, the first reworked, final configuration M90, has been flight testing in Nagoya since late March. Plans to have it flying at Moses Lake by now were quashed by the pandemic. With the resumption of flight testing at MWH, however, we'll likely see it ferried in either late May or June. Frame JA27MJ emerged unpainted from the factory a couple of weeks ago. Probably will fly in either June or July. Whether that frame will be re-positioned to Moses is not yet known.

Link: First flight of JA26MJ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddy43mteagQ

Link: FlightRadar24 Datebase (JA21MJ) https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ja21mj
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 8:22 pm

AirlineBob wrote:
Amazing to watch as Bombardier finalizes their exit from the Regional Jet market, where they once dominated.

At the risk of thread drift, can anyone point me to how Bombardier fell so far so fast? I know the C Series took much more time and capital than originally planned, but certainly that can't be the only thing that drove Bombardier out of the commercial jet market?


BBD has run things loosey goosey, ready to run to the government for bailouts at regular intervals. In aviation, it tried to do the C-Series, the Global 7500, and a new Lear Jet all at the same time: two made it into production, the Lear project died, but it overextended its Aviation section horribly.

The real problem at BBD was their rail division, it has been plagued with over late deliveries, poor quality, and ineptness of many contracts. One of the big contracts for like 300 cars to Montreal still had to deliver over 100 cars 2 years after the original completion date. NYC Metro last fall pulled 300 cars from service because the doors were opening when in motion. Their Thunder Bay plant was was in crisis mode building for all these late contracts, now they are basically out of work and the huge plant may close.

So BBD basically ran out of money in every of their divisions.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 8:47 pm

ITB wrote:
Mitsubishi is developing a scope compliant, fuel efficient, regional jet. Given the choice between purchasing a CRJ or a next-gen M100 it's pretty much a no-brainer for an airline exec. While it does not intend to outright kill the CRJ, Mitsubishi will simply let it fade away.


Forgot to say that they are doing this for the last 12 years and they don't have a certified airplane yet, the CRJ in other hand is already flying with success for a number of years and despite a relatively old project it shouldn't cost that much to re-engine the plane with something like the GE Passport the and get a supplemental type certificate for it for a fraction of the cost.
 
ITB
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 9:49 pm

AirlineBob wrote:
Amazing to watch as Bombardier finalizes their exit from the Regional Jet market, where they once dominated.

At the risk of thread drift, can anyone point me to how Bombardier fell so far so fast?



JayinKitsap wrote:
BBD has run things loosey goosey, ready to run to the government for bailouts at regular intervals. In aviation, it tried to do the C-Series, the Global 7500, and a new Lear Jet all at the same time: two made it into production, the Lear project died, but it overextended its Aviation section horribly.

The real problem at BBD was their rail division, it has been plagued with over late deliveries, poor quality, and ineptness of many contracts. One of the big contracts for like 300 cars to Montreal still had to deliver over 100 cars 2 years after the original completion date. NYC Metro last fall pulled 300 cars from service because the doors were opening when in motion. Their Thunder Bay plant was was in crisis mode building for all these late contracts, now they are basically out of work and the huge plant may close.

So BBD basically ran out of money in every of their divisions.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

The enormous debt burden due to the development of the C-Series certainly played a factor. In general, however, the greedy nature of Western capitalism pushed BBD to the breaking point. Shareholders continuously demanding big returns despite the desperate need to invest in product and manufacturing efficiency. That Canada has lost nearly the entirety of its aviation industry is depressing. Why the Canadian government allowed it to happen still bewilders me. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Certainly, more could have been done to ensure the survival of BBD's commercial aviation division.
 
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 10:07 pm

It's sad. As a Canadian it is like watching our aerospace industry being parted out like an obsolete old aircraft. I also happen to love trains and it's sad to see that go as well.

Beech
 
ITB
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Thu May 07, 2020 10:12 pm

bkmbr wrote:
ITB wrote:
Mitsubishi is developing a scope compliant, fuel efficient, regional jet. Given the choice between purchasing a CRJ or a next-gen M100 it's pretty much a no-brainer for an airline exec. While it does not intend to outright kill the CRJ, Mitsubishi will simply let it fade away.


Forgot to say that they are doing this for the last 12 years and they don't have a certified airplane yet, the CRJ in other hand is already flying with success for a number of years and despite a relatively old project it shouldn't cost that much to re-engine the plane with something like the GE Passport the and get a supplemental type certificate for it for a fraction of the cost.


Installing new engines on the CRJ isn't so simple. It's been rehashed several times previously in the forum. The main issue is the tail position of the engines. In short, more fuel efficient engines would require a rebalancing of the frame, which would in all likelihood push the 76-seater, the CRJ700, over the scope threshold of 86,000 lbs. But that isn't the only issue. Foremost, it's an older model aircraft that only can be refreshed so much. Minor things, too. Like the size of the bins and the time and energy wasted by passengers who have to gate-check their bags. Don't get me wrong thinking I'm just dumping on the CRJ. I loved flying on the CRJ50. Nifty little jet. Moreover, being the aircraft that really opened up regional flying, it will have a meaningful niche in history.
 
bkmbr
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Fri May 08, 2020 12:35 am

ITB wrote:
Installing new engines on the CRJ isn't so simple. It's been rehashed several times previously in the forum. The main issue is the tail position of the engines. In short, more fuel efficient engines would require a rebalancing of the frame, which would in all likelihood push the 76-seater, the CRJ700, over the scope threshold of 86,000 lbs. But that isn't the only issue. Foremost, it's an older model aircraft that only can be refreshed so much. Minor things, too. Like the size of the bins and the time and energy wasted by passengers who have to gate-check their bags. Don't get me wrong thinking I'm just dumping on the CRJ. I loved flying on the CRJ50. Nifty little jet. Moreover, being the aircraft that really opened up regional flying, it will have a meaningful niche in history.


I know that Is not necessarily easy but they already have an engine for that (the GE Passport, the natural evolution for the CF34 already used on the CRJs) and a supplemental type certificate can be achieved a lot quicker than a completely new certification (well, it was before the Max at least) so this is a possible way to keep the CRJ NextGen at least relevant for some markets and operators (specially it they offer this as an upgrade package to the current CRJ NextGen operators) if they are willing to do so. I know that Mitsubishi probably have no intention of going down the road in the McDonnell Douglas way of making planes but with all the problems that MRJ has having in its more than decade of development this could be done as a way to plug a hole in the line and keep at least the support network operations running a little longer.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5087
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Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Fri May 08, 2020 12:53 am

bkmbr wrote:
elbandgeek wrote:
I can 100% see a Boeing deal happening here. Like with the delays on the Max RTS, the virus slowdown could end up a blessing in disguise for the spacejet. As it stands now, they could end up beating EMB to market with a scope compliant 76-seater in the M100. Commit to a 100-seater stretch in a few years and Boeing gets more or less the same package they would had the EMB deal went through, potentially with better terms, and MHI gets a much better network than they would from buying the CRJ.


Does it make sense at first glance however, would Boeing be willing to exchange a proven and already operating product for a promise of an airplane that is severely overdue and blew its budget several times? And let me make it clear, I am not saying that SpaceJet is a bad product or inferior to the E2, but there is no denying that it is a product that is long overdue (virtually a decade) and has over-budgeted several times. Facts are facts and besides that let's be honest, we all know that the chance of the M100 actually going into production in the near future is virtually zero.
Unless Boeing profits a lot in this deal as a joint venture or buys the whole program at a very very cheap price (two things I don't see happening because of the Japanese government and the MHI's partners invested in the program) would be a huge bet by Boeing to trade the E2 for an airplane that, for all intents and purposes, it has proved to be a major commercial and engineering failure until now.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Boeing do quite a bit of work together and Mitsu. builds the center wing box for 787. Mitsu has a damn lot to learn about Aircraft systems integration- and probably hope they can at Boeing in how to tweak their systems or teach them how to integrate their on Aircraft systems. Boeing? Only needs to get their Heads out of their Butts and Not jerk up any system just for any single airplane Customer like they did on the MAX. Because NOW? All the finagling they did to NOT require a separate Type Certificate for the 737MAX? is all for Moot! As the 737MAX will require a separate Type Certificate when it's all said and Done.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Fri May 08, 2020 2:03 am

So a sampling of the RJ's:
CRJ-700 75,000 lb MTOW Thrust 2x13,790 lb CF34-8C5B1 2,400 LB weight.
E-170 85,098 lb MTOW Thrust 2x14,500 lb CF34-8C5B1 2,600 LB weight.
E-175 E2 98,767 lb MTOW Thrust 2x15,000 lb PW1700G 3,800 LB weight.
M90 94,358 lb MTOW Thrust 2x17,600 lb PW1200G 3,800 LB weight.
M100 92,594 lb MTOW Thrust 2x17,600 lb PW1200G 3,800 LB weight.

Possible Engines
GE Passport: 18,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,950 lb, 52"D x 103" long.
RR BR725 16,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,605 lb 50"D x 130" long.
RR BR725 16,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,605 lb 50"D x 130" long.
RR Pearl 15 15,200 lbf thrust, weight of 4,032 lb 50"D x 130" long.
PW 800: 18,000 lbf thrust, weight of 3,190 lb 50"D x 130" long.

Not many choices for more modern engines that weigh less. The PW800 series has a weight of 3,190 lb x 2. That is 1,220 lb less per plane
part of the way on getting M100 below the scope of 86,000 lb but it appears they have about 6,600 lb to shave.

In the BizJet market how well is the PW800 liked.
 
ITB
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:50 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Fri May 08, 2020 3:49 am

ITB wrote:
bkmbr wrote:
ITB wrote:
Mitsubishi is developing a scope compliant, fuel efficient, regional jet. Given the choice between purchasing a CRJ or a next-gen M100 it's pretty much a no-brainer for an airline exec. While it does not intend to outright kill the CRJ, Mitsubishi will simply let it fade away.


Forgot to say that they are doing this for the last 12 years and they don't have a certified airplane yet, the CRJ in other hand is already flying with success for a number of years and despite a relatively old project it shouldn't cost that much to re-engine the plane with something like the GE Passport the and get a supplemental type certificate for it for a fraction of the cost.


Installing new engines on the CRJ isn't so simple. It's been rehashed several times previously in the forum. The main issue is the tail position of the engines. In short, more fuel efficient engines would require a rebalancing of the frame, which would in all likelihood push the 76-seater, the CRJ700, over the scope threshold of 86,000 lbs. But that isn't the only issue. Foremost, it's an older model aircraft that only can be refreshed so much. Minor things, too. Like the size of the bins and the time and energy wasted by passengers who have to gate-check their bags. Don't get me wrong thinking I'm just dumping on the CRJ. I loved flying on the CRJ50. Nifty little jet. Moreover, being the aircraft that really opened up regional flying, it will have a meaningful niche in history.


I'm quoting my own post to make a couple of corrections. First, it's the CRJ200, not the CRJ50. Good grief. What was I thinking!? Seems when my thoughts were focused on the 50-seater, the CRJ200, I wrote "50." Now about the CRJ700, which I labeled the 76-seater. Well, that model can, of course, seat 76, but it's the CRJ900 which is usually configured in a three-class, 76-seat, configuration.


JayinKitsap wrote:
So a sampling of the RJ's:
CRJ-700 75,000 lb MTOW Thrust 2x13,790 lb CF34-8C5B1 2,400 LB weight.
E-170 85,098 lb MTOW Thrust 2x14,500 lb CF34-8C5B1 2,600 LB weight.
E-175 E2 98,767 lb MTOW Thrust 2x15,000 lb PW1700G 3,800 LB weight.
M90 94,358 lb MTOW Thrust 2x17,600 lb PW1200G 3,800 LB weight.
M100 92,594 lb MTOW Thrust 2x17,600 lb PW1200G 3,800 LB weight.

Possible Engines
GE Passport: 18,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,950 lb, 52"D x 103" long.
RR BR725 16,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,605 lb 50"D x 130" long.
RR BR725 16,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,605 lb 50"D x 130" long.
RR Pearl 15 15,200 lbf thrust, weight of 4,032 lb 50"D x 130" long.
PW 800: 18,000 lbf thrust, weight of 3,190 lb 50"D x 130" long.

Not many choices for more modern engines that weigh less. The PW800 series has a weight of 3,190 lb x 2. That is 1,220 lb less per plane
part of the way on getting M100 below the scope of 86,000 lb but it appears they have about 6,600 lb to shave.


Before the M100 received the green light to fully proceed, Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp (MITAC) contracted with the Triumph Group to do an in-depth analysis of the airframe to confirm (or disaffirm) whether the proposed 76-seat aircraft would meet the 86,000 lb. scope standard. The earlier engineering estimates were indeed affirmed, though, it should be noted, the M100 will feature several design changes from the M90, including a slightly smaller wing and increased use of aluminum-lithium alloys and Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymers (CFRP) for parts. To increase range and performance, Triumph has been entrusted to optimize the design of the wing.

These events happened mid-2019, or about a year ago. The M100, as I noted in an earlier post, is now in its detailed design phase. The manufacture of parts may commence this year or early next. Bear in mind, the same tube of the M90 will be utilized, though the M100's fuselage length will be slightly shorter, with the aft bulkhead shifted further toward the empennage. Leeham News & Analysis has a good rundown on the M100's design changes (link below).

Link: Leeham M100 article https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/how-m ... -spacejet/

Link: Triumph Group investor notice https://www.triumphgroup.com/triumph-to ... 0-program/

Link: Triumph Group http://www.triumphgroup.com/
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3596
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Fri May 08, 2020 4:21 am

Most of this article is behind a paywall but..

Boeing closes the door on Embraer, opens one for Mitsubishi

https://theaircurrent.com/industry-stra ... itsubishi/

If you have access it might be interesting.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Fri May 08, 2020 4:55 am

ITB wrote:
Before the M100 received the green light to fully proceed, Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp (MITAC) contracted with the Triumph Group to do an in-depth analysis of the airframe to confirm (or disaffirm) whether the proposed 76-seat aircraft would meet the 86,000 lb. scope standard. The earlier engineering estimates were indeed affirmed, though, it should be noted, the M100 will feature several design changes from the M90, including a slightly smaller wing and increased use of aluminum-lithium alloys and Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymers (CFRP) for parts. To increase range and performance, Triumph has been entrusted to optimize the design of the wing.


Well, a lot of the promises made during the development of the MRJ proved to be wrong in the past, they can expect a weight and fail do reach the targeted weight burning while some millions in the process. To be 100% honest I don't believe that Mitsubishi will be able to successfully create the M100 due to the major changes in the project necessary to achieve that, and apart from that they always have the risk of scope clauses changing and killing the project at birth since a lot of things in the market will change when the market (and the society) normalizes after the current crisis we are experiencing, and we never know what direction these changes can take.Even though Mitsubishi manages to launch the M100, given the current progress of the M90 I think it is very likely that this plane will not take off for its first flight before 2030.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 270
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Fri May 08, 2020 4:58 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Most of this article is behind a paywall but..

Boeing closes the door on Embraer, opens one for Mitsubishi

https://theaircurrent.com/industry-stra ... itsubishi/

If you have access it might be interesting.


From what little I read it seems to me more like an exercise in futurology than something based on any real evidence. If we go down this route we can even assume anything that pleases us, maybe Boeing buying the Superjet project could be an option as well, who know. :lol:
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Sat May 09, 2020 5:52 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
AirlineBob wrote:
Amazing to watch as Bombardier finalizes their exit from the Regional Jet market, where they once dominated.

At the risk of thread drift, can anyone point me to how Bombardier fell so far so fast? I know the C Series took much more time and capital than originally planned, but certainly that can't be the only thing that drove Bombardier out of the commercial jet market?


BBD has run things loosey goosey, ready to run to the government for bailouts at regular intervals. In aviation, it tried to do the C-Series, the Global 7500, and a new Lear Jet all at the same time: two made it into production, the Lear project died, but it overextended its Aviation section horribly.

The real problem at BBD was their rail division, it has been plagued with over late deliveries, poor quality, and ineptness of many contracts. One of the big contracts for like 300 cars to Montreal still had to deliver over 100 cars 2 years after the original completion date. NYC Metro last fall pulled 300 cars from service because the doors were opening when in motion. Their Thunder Bay plant was was in crisis mode building for all these late contracts, now they are basically out of work and the huge plant may close.

So BBD basically ran out of money in every of their divisions.


The last of those 318 cars just came in last month, and they were needed as replacements for trains that were 55 years old. That contract was 2 years late. (The same person had to deal with problems with both the Toronto and New York contracts.)

TBH, Bombardier should have only considered one project at a time...as they already have a good executive jet market. C-Series, Global 7500, or Learjet, but just one. But the problem was that Bombardier's quality control suffered at the rail division. The former recreational division could have really aided its former parent now.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2818
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Sat May 09, 2020 8:44 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
AirlineBob wrote:
Amazing to watch as Bombardier finalizes their exit from the Regional Jet market, where they once dominated.

At the risk of thread drift, can anyone point me to how Bombardier fell so far so fast? I know the C Series took much more time and capital than originally planned, but certainly that can't be the only thing that drove Bombardier out of the commercial jet market?


BBD has run things loosey goosey, ready to run to the government for bailouts at regular intervals. In aviation, it tried to do the C-Series, the Global 7500, and a new Lear Jet all at the same time: two made it into production, the Lear project died, but it overextended its Aviation section horribly.

The real problem at BBD was their rail division, it has been plagued with over late deliveries, poor quality, and ineptness of many contracts. One of the big contracts for like 300 cars to Montreal still had to deliver over 100 cars 2 years after the original completion date. NYC Metro last fall pulled 300 cars from service because the doors were opening when in motion. Their Thunder Bay plant was was in crisis mode building for all these late contracts, now they are basically out of work and the huge plant may close.

So BBD basically ran out of money in every of their divisions.


The last of those 318 cars just came in last month, and they were needed as replacements for trains that were 55 years old. That contract was 2 years late. (The same person had to deal with problems with both the Toronto and New York contracts.)

TBH, Bombardier should have only considered one project at a time...as they already have a good executive jet market. C-Series, Global 7500, or Learjet, but just one. But the problem was that Bombardier's quality control suffered at the rail division. The former recreational division could have really aided its former parent now.


Let’s not forget the Chinese and CRRC’s entrance into the United States, a key Bombardier rail market.

Everyone expected Chicago’s CTA 7000-series to be built by Bombardier because the 5000-series was. CRRC won the 7000-series contract and sweetened the deal by building an assembly plant in Chicago proper that will also supply LA Metro’s next trains and future Metra bi-level cars. In other words, there was a China pattern here.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
AirlineBob
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:40 am

Edit: I can't seem to get the photo to upload. But looking at flights on FlightRadar 24, a CRJ came up as a "Mitsubishi CRJ."

IMG-8469.jpg
 
N766UA
Posts: 8347
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:33 am

AirlineBob wrote:
Edit: I can't seem to get the photo to upload. But looking at flights on FlightRadar 24, a CRJ came up as a "Mitsubishi CRJ."

IMG-8469.jpg


Well that’s dumb. That’s like calling it a Boeing DC-9.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:00 am

ITB wrote:
ITB wrote:
bkmbr wrote:

Forgot to say that they are doing this for the last 12 years and they don't have a certified airplane yet, the CRJ in other hand is already flying with success for a number of years and despite a relatively old project it shouldn't cost that much to re-engine the plane with something like the GE Passport the and get a supplemental type certificate for it for a fraction of the cost.


Installing new engines on the CRJ isn't so simple. It's been rehashed several times previously in the forum. The main issue is the tail position of the engines. In short, more fuel efficient engines would require a rebalancing of the frame, which would in all likelihood push the 76-seater, the CRJ700, over the scope threshold of 86,000 lbs. But that isn't the only issue. Foremost, it's an older model aircraft that only can be refreshed so much. Minor things, too. Like the size of the bins and the time and energy wasted by passengers who have to gate-check their bags. Don't get me wrong thinking I'm just dumping on the CRJ. I loved flying on the CRJ50. Nifty little jet. Moreover, being the aircraft that really opened up regional flying, it will have a meaningful niche in history.


I'm quoting my own post to make a couple of corrections. First, it's the CRJ200, not the CRJ50. Good grief. What was I thinking!? Seems when my thoughts were focused on the 50-seater, the CRJ200, I wrote "50." Now about the CRJ700, which I labeled the 76-seater. Well, that model can, of course, seat 76, but it's the CRJ900 which is usually configured in a three-class, 76-seat, configuration.


JayinKitsap wrote:
So a sampling of the RJ's:
CRJ-700 75,000 lb MTOW Thrust 2x13,790 lb CF34-8C5B1 2,400 LB weight.
E-170 85,098 lb MTOW Thrust 2x14,500 lb CF34-8C5B1 2,600 LB weight.
E-175 E2 98,767 lb MTOW Thrust 2x15,000 lb PW1700G 3,800 LB weight.
M90 94,358 lb MTOW Thrust 2x17,600 lb PW1200G 3,800 LB weight.
M100 92,594 lb MTOW Thrust 2x17,600 lb PW1200G 3,800 LB weight.

Possible Engines
GE Passport: 18,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,950 lb, 52"D x 103" long.
RR BR725 16,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,605 lb 50"D x 130" long.
RR BR725 16,900 lbf thrust, weight of 3,605 lb 50"D x 130" long.
RR Pearl 15 15,200 lbf thrust, weight of 4,032 lb 50"D x 130" long.
PW 800: 18,000 lbf thrust, weight of 3,190 lb 50"D x 130" long.

Not many choices for more modern engines that weigh less. The PW800 series has a weight of 3,190 lb x 2. That is 1,220 lb less per plane
part of the way on getting M100 below the scope of 86,000 lb but it appears they have about 6,600 lb to shave.


Before the M100 received the green light to fully proceed, Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp (MITAC) contracted with the Triumph Group to do an in-depth analysis of the airframe to confirm (or disaffirm) whether the proposed 76-seat aircraft would meet the 86,000 lb. scope standard. The earlier engineering estimates were indeed affirmed, though, it should be noted, the M100 will feature several design changes from the M90, including a slightly smaller wing and increased use of aluminum-lithium alloys and Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymers (CFRP) for parts. To increase range and performance, Triumph has been entrusted to optimize the design of the wing.

These events happened mid-2019, or about a year ago. The M100, as I noted in an earlier post, is now in its detailed design phase. The manufacture of parts may commence this year or early next. Bear in mind, the same tube of the M90 will be utilized, though the M100's fuselage length will be slightly shorter, with the aft bulkhead shifted further toward the empennage. Leeham News & Analysis has a good rundown on the M100's design changes (link below).

Link: Leeham M100 article https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/13/how-m ... -spacejet/

Link: Triumph Group investor notice https://www.triumphgroup.com/triumph-to ... 0-program/

Link: Triumph Group http://www.triumphgroup.com/

The Triumph audit gives some hope the M100 can be sold on a reasonable 86,000 lb. Of course, for the non US market, a higher MTOW version will be offered.

This begs the question, what will the range be with 76 pax in 3 class?

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5087
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Rumor: Mitsubishi cancels acquisition of CRJ program

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:30 am

[quote="JayinKitsap"]It is a rumor posted by FliegerFaust, many of those don't come to pass.

This seemed to be a poor purchase when MHI was doing it, a lot of money to be doing service on a lot of old planes that could be going out to pasture. Who are the customers for the last 14 CRJ's coming off of the line, I am with the -200sure BBD already has most of the parts etc well on their way right now. The MRJ doesn't really need this network at the moment as it will be too dilapidated to help once they get either of the Spacejets certified.[/quot
Mitsu is already shutting down the MRJ Space-Jet program in favor of the CRJ program at this point. The CRJ is a solid program with the -200/-550/-700 and they have 1000's of airplanes already to continue to support until t and prodhe Space-jet program is again up and running. they will need to be on top of the engineering and product improvement if they intend to keep their customer base. So they will have to move fast and study diligently if they intend to keep up with Embraer.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 270
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:41 am

lightsaber wrote:
The Triumph audit gives some hope the M100 can be sold on a reasonable 86,000 lb.


Yes, but how many M100 units would Mitsubishi need to sell to break even at this point? Would this be possible without bankrupting the company? In 2011 the whole MRJ program was estimated around ¥200 billion and would need 300 to 400 sales to recoup its cost, but the last time I read about it they where estimating that by the end of the M90 certification program alone the entire project skyrocketed to ¥800 billion. With almost 70% of the MRJ's backlog shared by regional carriers bound by scope clauses I don't see how committing to pump even more money in this project will be able to save it.
And don't get me wrong, is not that I don't like MRJ or think there’s something inherently wrong about the project, I think it would better for everyone, including Embraer, if MRJ really became a competitor and stimulate the market to always improve, but day after day I think that the MRJ project looks more and more similar to the the Saunders-Roe Princess and Boeing 2707 projects.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4409
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:59 pm

Hybrid regionals may not be a reality now, but come 2030 and they will be being designed and shortly built. Standard regionals need to be delivered before 2030 in order to have any lifespan.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
bkmbr
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:16 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Hybrid regionals may not be a reality now, but come 2030 and they will be being designed and shortly built. Standard regionals need to be delivered before 2030 in order to have any lifespan.


With the new ICAO emission standards in 2028, we will already see many planes that will have their production forcibly terminated, including the 175E1 and ARJ21 since the CF34 should not be able to meet the established limits.
 
danipawa
Posts: 486
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:58 pm

when its going to roll out the last CRJ built?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi sets June 1st date for acquisition of CRJ program

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:54 pm

bkmbr wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The Triumph audit gives some hope the M100 can be sold on a reasonable 86,000 lb.


Yes, but how many M100 units would Mitsubishi need to sell to break even at this point? Would this be possible without bankrupting the company? In 2011 the whole MRJ program was estimated around ¥200 billion and would need 300 to 400 sales to recoup its cost, but the last time I read about it they where estimating that by the end of the M90 certification program alone the entire project skyrocketed to ¥800 billion. With almost 70% of the MRJ's backlog shared by regional carriers bound by scope clauses I don't see how committing to pump even more money in this project will be able to save it.
And don't get me wrong, is not that I don't like MRJ or think there’s something inherently wrong about the project, I think it would better for everyone, including Embraer, if MRJ really became a competitor and stimulate the market to always improve, but day after day I think that the MRJ project looks more and more similar to the the Saunders-Roe Princess and Boeing 2707 projects.

If we consider the M100 a seperate program, it only needs to sell, per my own assumptions, 125 more examples to break even on the M100 investment over the M90 investment.

If the M100 is the sole 76 scope compliant jet for 20 years, I project it taking the MRJ to break even, maybe a little better. But that is sunk costs. There is no refund on the spent money. But there is a business case and a strategic case to move forward on the M100 after M90 entry into service.

To be blunt, the M90s sold outside of Japan will not be delivered unless Mitsubishi builds up more economy of scale. As both M90 and E2-175 sales weren't happening, something must change. That is volume, in my opinion.

Mitsubishi bought the CRJ program so they could service the MRJ in the regions the CRJ sold easy (and grow).

My worst case numbers on the M100 have it paying back about $1 billion usd of the debt Mitsubishi incured. My best case have it even, before interest, earning a small profit.

This is a classic sunk cost example. However, in this case one should invest. At least per my numbers.

Other programs, say ARJ-21, my numbers say "cut the losses." Even with strategic considerations.

At this point, my math says continue on with the profitable programs (787, A359, A35K, A320NEO, E-175) and:
779, 777xF
MAX (except -7 could go either way)
M90/M100
A220
E2-190/195
767-300F
MC-21 with Pratt engines

Watch: A330NEO, -7 MAX, C919, MC-21 with Russian engines

Cancel:
ARJ-21
SSJ
778

I do not list the 748 or A388 as it would take a miracle to restart production. Yes, I know they are still being assembled, but too much of the supply chain is already scrapped to continue production. It is difficult to describe 2+ year lead times to people who haven't had the pain of trying to get something in 18 months that normally takes 24 months.

Lightsaber
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