Hello... I am looking for some information.

Today I noticed in a old OAG that in 1980, there was a daily DC-8 flight between Sydney and Wellington.

What I found odd was that the flight operated at the same time every day.

However, on Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays, it was operated as Qantas flight 64.

The other four days of the week it was operated as Air New Zealand flight 141.

7:30am-8:55am WLG-SYD TE 141 DC8 TuThuFrSu
7:30am-8:55am WLG-SYD QF 64 DC8 MoWeSa

Now I am fairly sure that Qantas never operated DC-8s so I am assuming this was always an Air New Zealand aircraft flying the route.

I don't know that I have ever seen an instance, however, where a jointly operated flight was marketed as one carrier's flight on certain days of the week and the the other carrier's on other days.

Can anyone provide any information on this flight or arrangement?

Thanks in advance.

This WLG-SYD-WLG arrangement was between 01 Jun 1972 and mid Dec 1981 and included WLG-MEL-WLG and WLG-BNE-WLG. It was preceded by a Lockheed Electra ll arrangement from about 1970 to 1972 when QF sold their last Electra to Air NZ.

Between mid Dec 1981 and late Sep 1985 it was SYD-WLG-SYD with a Qantas 747SP, but it was less than daily. I can't remember if there were any WLG-MEL-WLG and WLG-BNE-WLG during that time.

There were joint Air NZ and Qantas 767-200ER services from 1985 for a period, then each to their own after that.

The reason for the collaboration was WLG had a short runway which was later extended to permit DC8 operations, and the Qantas 747SP was used when Air NZ ceased DC8 pax flights.

PA515

I remember going to WLG airport as a small boy to get my Dad off of a TE Electra flight from SYD. It was dark outside and I don't think I actually got a look at the aircraft, unfortunately. Not even sure why I know it was an Electra, but it's something I've been aware of for most of my life so I assume my Dad told me. So yes, the Electra was the aircraft used back in the day. Godzone in the early 1970s... When AA flew the Pacific routes with 707s.

Speaking of the Electras, ZK-TEA and -TEB both carried Qantas titles in addition to Air New Zealand ones for a period of time:



V/F

PA515 wrote:

This WLG-SYD-WLG arrangement was between 01 Jun 1972 and mid Dec 1981 and included WLG-MEL-WLG and WLG-BNE-WLG. It was preceded by a Lockheed Electra ll arrangement from about 1970 to 1972 when QF sold their last Electra to Air NZ.

Between mid Dec 1981 and late Sep 1985 it was SYD-WLG-SYD with a Qantas 747SP, but it was less than daily. I can't remember if there were any WLG-MEL-WLG and WLG-BNE-WLG during that time.

There were joint Air NZ and Qantas 767-200ER services from 1985 for a period, then each to their own after that.

The reason for the collaboration was WLG had a short runway which was later extended to permit DC8 operations, and the Qantas 747SP was used when Air NZ ceased DC8 pax flights.

PA515

The 74L operated to both MEL and BNE from WLG during the period you mention. I can only find one online reference (an international OAG edition on the departedflights.com website). This shows a single weekly flight to MEL and BNE.

Link http://www.departedflights.com/WLG83p1.html

I recall following the introduction of the 762 that QF and NZ operated their own stand-alone services across the Tasman from all ports until the early 1990's, after which a code share arrangement was introduced that allowed co-ordination and consolidation of schedules. I think that lasted until about 1996.

QF/NZ's relationship has been on/off for the last 80 years in some form, fact Qantas was one was on the original owners of NZ. It was an joint venture between Qantas, BOAC, Union Airways (New Zealand) back in the 1940s to start services between Australia and New Zealand.

They used to share DC4's that would operate Norfolk Island services, more recently in the 70s NZ/BA had an agreement that BA would operate NZ's DC10s between LA and LONDON.

I guess I am still not understanding why each airline claimed "ownership" of the flight on certain days of the week. I can understand WHY Qantas used an Air New Zealand DC-8 aircraft, but why did the two airlines not offer the flight every day rather than having it operate as a QF flight on some days and a TE flight on other days?

departedflights wrote:

I guess I am still not understanding why each airline claimed "ownership" of the flight on certain days of the week. I can understand WHY Qantas used an Air New Zealand DC-8 aircraft, but why did the two airlines not offer the flight every day rather than having it operate as a QF flight on some days and a TE flight on other days?

Because this was before the days of codesharing.

Didn't the Australian domestic carriers TN and AN also have flights to New Zealand at some point (I think the early 1980s), but which had to carry QF flight numbers, and only on odd routes, like HBA to WLG? I am sure I read that in Ansett: the Story of the Rise and Fall of Ansett by Stewart Wilson.

I have always wondered how that worked.

QF simply chartered the 727 to operate the flight.

qf002 wrote:

Because this was before the days of codesharing.

I know this was before code-sharing, but there are MANY, MANY other examples in this OAG that have remarks like: "LH 263 joint operation LH-AZ," or "BR 357 joint operation BR-LJ." So, yes - no code-sharing but other flights were clearly operated jointly and indicated in this OAG.

eta unknown wrote:

QF simply chartered the 727 to operate the flight.

It was a DC-8, not that it matters... but that makes the most sense. Thank you.

vhtje wrote:

Didn't the Australian domestic carriers TN and AN also have flights to New Zealand at some point (I think the early 1980s), but which had to carry QF flight numbers, and only on odd routes, like HBA to WLG? I am sure I read that in Ansett: the Story of the Rise and Fall of Ansett by Stewart Wilson.

I have always wondered how that worked.

TAA / TN flew HBA-CHC for a time. It had a QF flight number. Not sure if Ansett did - at least none in my timetable collection shows it.

I have an ntry in my travel logbook for Mar 07th 1979:
SYD-WLG QF64 ZKNZE STD 1010 ATD 1046 STA 1510 ATA 1535 capt Hodges (have a little doubt about the name of the capt)

departedflights wrote:

qf002 wrote:

Because this was before the days of codesharing.

I know this was before code-sharing, but there are MANY, MANY other examples in this OAG that have remarks like: "LH 263 joint operation LH-AZ," or "BR 357 joint operation BR-LJ." So, yes - no code-sharing but other flights were clearly operated jointly and indicated in this OAG.

eta unknown wrote:

QF simply chartered the 727 to operate the flight.

It was a DC-8, not that it matters... but that makes the most sense. Thank you.

The QF 727 referred to the weekly HBA-CHC flight:
http://www.departedflights.com/CHC83p1.html

My favorite OAG remark involved the Sabena/BCal 747 BRU-LGW-ATL codeshare with the BCal LGW-ATL segment noted as "operated by Belgian registered aircraft"

As for pooling, look at any BA timetable from the 70's early 80's and just see how many competitor flights were listed.

[*]

departedflights wrote:

I guess I am still not understanding why each airline claimed "ownership" of the flight on certain days of the week. I can understand WHY Qantas used an Air New Zealand DC-8 aircraft, but why did the two airlines not offer the flight every day rather than having it operate as a QF flight on some days and a TE flight on other days?

Things were different back then, both airlines would of still been in Government Ownership back then.

It was until the late 80s / early 90s that NZ and QF got cut free from government control.

ZazuPIT wrote:

vhtje wrote:

Didn't the Australian domestic carriers TN and AN also have flights to New Zealand at some point (I think the early 1980s), but which had to carry QF flight numbers, and only on odd routes, like HBA to WLG? I am sure I read that in Ansett: the Story of the Rise and Fall of Ansett by Stewart Wilson.

I have always wondered how that worked.

TAA / TN flew HBA-CHC for a time. It had a QF flight number. Not sure if Ansett did - at least none in my timetable collection shows it.

In my book of Christchurch Airport reaching for the skies. There is a picture of a Ansett DC-9 arriving in from Hobart in 1981. So along with the TN 727s and the NZ 737s the route had a lot of competition at that time. Now no services operate at all between Tasmania and NZ.

Hi folks. I'm not familiar with this particular joint venture or relationship but it would appear to be a government-led criteria: governments often set requirements that airlines can only operate a certain number of flights, or seats, or percentage (whatever requirement they set) between two countries. Sometimes they will set it as even specific cities. They are called bilateral agreements. It may have been that QF had the permission to fly certain routes but didn't have the aircraft so chartered or borrowed from AN or TAA for those non-SYD flights mentioned. Similarly they may have made an arrangement with Air New Zealand to do the same thing across the Tasman. When those bilaterals are made it usually means one (or both) governments felt there was not enough traffic to warrant more flights. For example, at one point recently in Canada we were limited to 6 weekly flights between the UAE and Canada: so each country can designate a carrier (or carriers) to operate their maximum number per week.

On here you can see the Air NZ DC8 flights from the 1975 timetable side by side with the QF 707 Tasman flights:
https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimage ... z75-06.jpg

Even Christchurch had daily flights to Sydney during April 75 seen on the next slide. Looking at Wellington I only see DC-8 flights no 707s but some had a QF36! flight number and some NZ361 flight number all operated with the NZ DC-8s going to SYD. While the WLG to BNE and MEL flights were all DC8s as well. Perhaps the 707 could not land at Wellington as it went to both CHC and AKL.:
https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimage ... z75-08.jpg

ZazuPIT wrote:

vhtje wrote:

Didn't the Australian domestic carriers TN and AN also have flights to New Zealand at some point (I think the early 1980s), but which had to carry QF flight numbers, and only on odd routes, like HBA to WLG? I am sure I read that in Ansett: the Story of the Rise and Fall of Ansett by Stewart Wilson.

I have always wondered how that worked.

TAA / TN flew HBA-CHC for a time. It had a QF flight number. Not sure if Ansett did - at least none in my timetable collection shows it.

The CHC-HBA link is an interesting story. Reg Ansett desperately wanted Ansett to become an international airline but the government policy of the day was that only state-owned QF could fly internationally and said "no". Ansett persisted and eventually permission was granted with two privisos:

1. That the flight had to operate under a QF flight number to maintain the fiction that only QF could operate internationally (even though it was not a Qantas flight);
2. That TAA (the state-owned domestic airline) also had the opportunity to fly the CHC-HBA route.

What we ended up with was a twice-weekly flight on CHC-HBA, as QF393 on Wed and Sat IIRC, using TAA and Ansett 727s (maybe the DC9 referred to was a substitution). It became quickly clear that it was overkill, and the route became Sat only, with Ansett and TAA alternating fortnightly. Eventually they both gave up altogether and the route became an NZ route with a weekly 737-200 on a Saturday, though during summer it was twice weekly, usually Sat and Sun, but one summer it ran twice on Sat. I never used the Ansett or TAA flights, but took the NZ service many times.

Another piece of useless historical trivia: there was once a short-lived AKL-HBA service, run by QF with a 762. I used it once, but by the time I came back it had been canned.

As for DC8s out of WLG: they were used because the QF 707s could not use the limited runway at WLG. One of my earliest international flights was WLG-SYD on a DC8 - my only ever DC8 flight. And it was great also to have flown the QF 74L on WLG-SYD and WLG-MEL back in the day - a very rare aircraft even then.

departedflights wrote:

qf002 wrote:

Because this was before the days of codesharing.

I know this was before code-sharing, but there are MANY, MANY other examples in this OAG that have remarks like: "LH 263 joint operation LH-AZ," or "BR 357 joint operation BR-LJ." So, yes - no code-sharing but other flights were clearly operated jointly and indicated in this OAG.

eta unknown wrote:

QF simply chartered the 727 to operate the flight.

It was a DC-8, not that it matters... but that makes the most sense. Thank you.

Pretty sure the chartered 727 reference was to the Ansett / Trans Australian / Qantas reference up thread a bit and not to the QF/TE(NZ) DC-8 portion of the thread.

Re. Ansett's attempts for international service.

Before HBA-CHC they applied to operate TSV-SIN (No mention of a stop, but presumably DRW) in 1980 they operated a single charter flight 18 April 1980 optd. by 727-200 VH-RMO, but were denied the authority to make it a regular flight. Coincidentally RMO operated the first AN HBA-CHC flight.

Assuming the stop was in Darwin, DRW-SIN is quite a long leg for a standard -200. Must have been getting close to max range. The -200LRs arrived the following year.

http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-727/vh-rmo/vhrmo.html

Looking at the timetable from departed flights they show this....

QF391 HBA CHC 1050 1525 72S Sat only
TE 74 HBA CHC 1300 1750 73S Sat only

Now please forgive me for asking a daft question..but would it not of been financially better to schedule one of the flights on maybe Sunday or midweek? It just seams strange that they both had one flight each per week and that the operated on the same day and at fairly similar times. I am guessing that the route might of had something to do with skiing in Tasmania? So maybe thats why?

Look at this today is seams like oneupmanship

Does anyone have the schedule for the return sectors CHC-HBA? Sorry I'm one of those odd people who have notebooks full of handwritten old airline schedules.

Alex

eta unknown wrote:

My favorite OAG remark involved the Sabena/BCal 747 BRU-LGW-ATL codeshare with the BCal LGW-ATL segment noted as "operated by Belgian registered aircraft"

Oh, do I remember that one! In 1987 a relative took the flight from Atlanta to Brussels via Gatwick with a 737 connection to Athens. The best seats on the 747 were given to the clients of Bcal and when the plane landed at LGW the captain announced a technical delay. The mechanics swarmed around an engine picking and unscrewing and after an hour the plane was cleared to fly but the onward connections were lost. After our initial anxiety over the misconx, we asked Sabena staff who gave us the tip and we spent another nice five hours until sunset for the second Sabena 737 arrival. Those were the days!

As for pooling, look at any BA timetable from the 70's early 80's and just see how many competitor flights were listed.

The same is true for Olympic. In all timetables of the same period European services were operated in pool.

GZM1 wrote:

eta unknown wrote:

My favorite OAG remark involved the Sabena/BCal 747 BRU-LGW-ATL codeshare with the BCal LGW-ATL segment noted as "operated by Belgian registered aircraft"

Oh, do I remember that one! In 1987 a relative took the flight from Atlanta to Brussels via Gatwick with a 737 connection to Athens. The best seats on the 747 were given to the clients of Bcal and when the plane landed at LGW the captain announced a technical delay. The mechanics swarmed around an engine picking and unscrewing and after an hour the plane was cleared to fly but the onward connections were lost. After our initial anxiety over the misconx, we asked Sabena staff who gave us the tip and we spent another nice five hours until sunset for the second Sabena 737 arrival. Those were the days!

As for pooling, look at any BA timetable from the 70's early 80's and just see how many competitor flights were listed.

The same is true for Olympic. In all timetables of the same period European services were operated in pool.

I am not sure if this is true or not but I think I read somewhere that in Europe in the 70's and 80's often the national flag carries pooled revenue. So BA didn't care if you flew AF between London and Paris as they just shared the... I would say profits but more likely losses.

Alex

I used to fly the trans-Tasman Electra and DC-8 service regularly back in the day with parents working and commuting between Canberra and Wellington. My last flight was WLG-SYD in July 1980. Those DC-8’s were great planes.

richcandy wrote:

Looking at the timetable from departed flights they show this....

QF391 HBA CHC 1050 1525 72S Sat only
TE 74 HBA CHC 1300 1750 73S Sat only

Now please forgive me for asking a daft question..but would it not of been financially better to schedule one of the flights on maybe Sunday or midweek? It just seams strange that they both had one flight each per week and that the operated on the same day and at fairly similar times. I am guessing that the route might of had something to do with skiing in Tasmania? So maybe thats why?

Look at this today is seams like oneupmanship

Does anyone have the schedule for the return sectors CHC-HBA? Sorry I'm one of those odd people who have notebooks full of handwritten old airline schedules.

Alex

The flight was popular for Kiwis going to the Hobart Casino as there was none in NZ at that time. I remember the NZ 737 left about 9am from Christchurch on the Saturday. The domestic schedule was quieter in the weekends so had the spare capacity to do the Hobart run same from Auckland it had extra Pacific Island flying in the weekend.