Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 13
 
oschkosch
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 8:51 am

Dominic Gates and team win a Pulitzer Prize for their excellent reporting re the 737 max grounding! Well done! :) :D

https://leehamnews.com/2020/05/05/seatt ... -coverage/

Seattle Times, reporting team win Pulitzer Prize for Boeing 737 MAX coverage
The team is Dominic Gates, Steve Miletich, Mike Baker and Lewis Kamb.

Gates has been the aerospace reporter since 2003. Miletich provided outstanding coverage from legal perspectives. Baker and Kamb joined with Gates and Miletich in ground-breaking reporting that more often than not led national newspapers in MAX coverage.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1152
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 2:42 pm

When is the -10 supposed to begin test flights?
 
User avatar
VCVSpotter
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 3:11 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
When is the -10 supposed to begin test flights?


They were doing taxi tests before this whole COVID-19 crisis hit so hopefully soon now that they're back to 'regular' (albeit with precautions/face masks/etc.) testing.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
dangle
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:45 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed May 06, 2020 7:10 pm

It looks like Boeing has what might be an Oman Air 737 MAX-8 in the air right now over Washington/Oregon:

https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=70c100

https://www.planespotters.net/hex/70C100
 
User avatar
VCVSpotter
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed May 06, 2020 7:22 pm

dangle wrote:
It looks like Boeing has what might be an Oman Air 737 MAX-8 in the air right now over Washington/Oregon

According to the spreadsheet below (see 1st link), the BOE932 callsign is assigned to A4O-MF. Flightradar24 agrees with that assumption as well (see 2nd link). Interesting that they would take it out of storage, looks like the picture provided on FR24 shows it all taped up. Wonder if they're getting it prepped to head to a more permanent storage area (MWH, VCV) instead of taking up valuable room at PAE, especially as more customers seem to defer pre-built 787 orders due to the COVID19 crisis.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... iew?pli=1#
https://www.flightradar24.com/BOE932/24754291
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24323
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed May 06, 2020 8:16 pm

Leeham ( https://leehamnews.com/2020/05/06/spiri ... -worse-2q/ ) tells us how Spirit will handle all those 737 green fuselages that people here are so interested in:

Spirit will deliver 125 737 fuselages to Boeing this year, down from 216 previously agreed, reflecting the COVID crisis. This includes 18 delivered in January before production was suspended.

On the earnings call, Spirit said the the storage will grow somewhat, peaking in July-August. It will get back down to the 120s by year end. The inventory will decline in 2021 and “burn down” in the next two years.


For those worried about Spirit's survival:

The company ended the quarter with $1.8bn in cash. In April, Spirit raised $1.2bn in debt. This was a $1bn ask; it was oversubscribed to $1.2bn. It used $800m to pay debt, with the remaining $400m going to the bank account.

Spirit is not seeking government funding.

Spirit still plans to close the acquisitions of ASCO and Bombardier’s aerostructures companies. The latter expands Spirit’s Airbus business. Bombardier’s Belfast, Ireland, facility produces A220 wings and A320 thrust reversers. ASCO expands Airbus and defense business.

So Spirit is not only surviving but is also moving forward with acquisitions with full support of the financial markets.

In the mean time is using 700 of its workers to make ventilators, masks and PPEs for health care workers.

It seems the aerospace firms aren't in as bad a position as are their airline customers.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1321
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 12:18 am

dangle wrote:
It looks like Boeing has what might be an Oman Air 737 MAX-8 in the air right now over Washington/Oregon:

https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=70c100

https://www.planespotters.net/hex/70C100


https://twitter.com/AeroimagesChris/sta ... 9327464448

According to this tweet (posted earlier by user VCVSpotter), it’s being used by Boeing for flight testing. Another Twitter reply claims that post re-certification, it will be used by Boeing to promote the MAX, hence the Boeing house livery.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2702
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 4:22 pm

beechnut wrote:
Haven't seen this posted yet. More bad news for the MAX:

Boeing’s Biggest 737 MAX Customer Slashes Aircraft Delivery Schedule

https://simpleflying.com/southwest-737- ... -schedule/

The 2021 delivery schedule slashed from 100 to 48.


Right now, deferrals are to be expected, so I don't consider it bad news.

Cancellations are bad news. I think it'll take much longer for Boeing to clear
their backlog of undelivered MAX frames than before the Covid crisis , so basically all MAX deliveries will be deferred.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 6:03 am

Doesn't sound rather promising!

Deal For 200 Boeing 737 MAXs Impacted If British Airways Closes London Gatwick Base

British Airways told staff it could close its London Gatwick base, raising questions about the 200 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft that the airline’s parent, IAG, signed a letter of intent to buy. Gatwick was due to receive the first part of the MAX aircraft from IAG’s LOI placed last summer and still valid as of February, the group said. Under the LOI for 200 MAX aircraft, the first batch were allocated to British Airways at London Gatwick. They cannot be transferred to British Airways’ larger base at Heathrow, which requires baggage be loaded via containers.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... wick-base/
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Scotron12
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 7:29 am

oschkosch wrote:
Doesn't sound rather promising!

Deal For 200 Boeing 737 MAXs Impacted If British Airways Closes London Gatwick Base

British Airways told staff it could close its London Gatwick base, raising questions about the 200 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft that the airline’s parent, IAG, signed a letter of intent to buy. Gatwick was due to receive the first part of the MAX aircraft from IAG’s LOI placed last summer and still valid as of February, the group said. Under the LOI for 200 MAX aircraft, the first batch were allocated to British Airways at London Gatwick. They cannot be transferred to British Airways’ larger base at Heathrow, which requires baggage be loaded via containers.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... wick-base/


It's not what Walsh said yesterday. He said the LOI for the 737MAX remains in place.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... long-slump
 
oschkosch
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 6:41 am

Scotron12 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Doesn't sound rather promising!

Deal For 200 Boeing 737 MAXs Impacted If British Airways Closes London Gatwick Base

British Airways told staff it could close its London Gatwick base, raising questions about the 200 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft that the airline’s parent, IAG, signed a letter of intent to buy. Gatwick was due to receive the first part of the MAX aircraft from IAG’s LOI placed last summer and still valid as of February, the group said. Under the LOI for 200 MAX aircraft, the first batch were allocated to British Airways at London Gatwick. They cannot be transferred to British Airways’ larger base at Heathrow, which requires baggage be loaded via containers.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... wick-base/


It's not what Walsh said yesterday. He said the LOI for the 737MAX remains in place.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... long-slump


Well ok, it remain s in place, fair enough. But no base at Gatwick = no max planes at British Airways. Simple as that.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9633
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 9:03 am

The MAX could replace the Airbuses.
 
US319
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:33 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 10:12 am

seahawk wrote:
The MAX could replace the Airbuses.


But they won´t or did you forget all those NEOs in service and on order?
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9633
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 10:27 am

They could cancel the NEOs and order the MAX, it all depends on the contracts. If the MAX + contract fees to Airbus is still significantly cheaper than the NEOs, it could make sense.

Not that this would be likely, but I have seen much crazier things to happen.
 
LJ
Posts: 5333
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 11:28 am

oschkosch wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Well ok, it remain s in place, fair enough. But no base at Gatwick = no max planes at British Airways. Simple as that.


I'm sorry, but this has been discussed many times before. The IAG ordered the MAX for not only the LGW base, but also for Vueling and LEVEL as such they can move the entire order to Vueling and LEVEL.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 11:49 am

LJ wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Well ok, it remain s in place, fair enough. But no base at Gatwick = no max planes at British Airways. Simple as that.


I'm sorry, but this has been discussed many times before. The IAG ordered the MAX for not only the LGW base, but also for Vueling and LEVEL as such they can move the entire order to Vueling and LEVEL.


It strikes me as quite unlikely that BA or other IAG airlines will cease forever all flying out of Gatwick. That is like saying the terminals at LHR that are closed due to low demand will NEVER open again. I am unsure when Gatwick will come back up, but it is quite likely once BA is flying over 50% of its previous flights.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 2:16 pm

seahawk wrote:
They could cancel the NEOs and order the MAX, it all depends on the contracts. If the MAX + contract fees to Airbus is still significantly cheaper than the NEOs, it could make sense.

Not that this would be likely, but I have seen much crazier things to happen.


Ba can not use MAX at LHR unless they invest millions in changing the airport infrastructure. LHR is optimized for containers, the MAX can not perform there unless BA changes the whole system. I dont know how cheap the MAX would have to be to make this worth it and it would also be super stupid for the future.
 
Aviator34ID
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:34 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 10:57 pm

I see a couple of AC MAX's are on the move today.
 
B6JFKH81
Posts: 2169
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:35 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:11 am

Aviator34ID wrote:
I see a couple of AC MAX's are on the move today.


I was shocked to hear, when I was in MZJ performing COVID-19 parking, that all the AC MAXs there still require some sorts of heavy checks for calendar driven items (not hours/cycles) and would have to go to/from Canada to get those checks done. After the check, back to the desert for storage again.
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:58 am

seahawk wrote:
They could cancel the NEOs and order the MAX, it all depends on the contracts. If the MAX + contract fees to Airbus is still significantly cheaper than the NEOs, it could make sense.

Not that this would be likely, but I have seen much crazier things to happen.

So you telling me the grand plan is to tell the airline to dump all the neos at a lost price, cancel the remaining neo.contract, retrain all the pilots and crew from Airbus to Boeing, dump maintenance parts from Airbus to Boeing and other cost. I'm sorry what is the advantage here? You are telling me the neo is a costly plane to operate and buy while the max saves the airline ton on operating cost?
BA should hire you!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9633
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:12 am

PHLspecial wrote:
seahawk wrote:
They could cancel the NEOs and order the MAX, it all depends on the contracts. If the MAX + contract fees to Airbus is still significantly cheaper than the NEOs, it could make sense.

Not that this would be likely, but I have seen much crazier things to happen.

So you telling me the grand plan is to tell the airline to dump all the neos at a lost price, cancel the remaining neo.contract, retrain all the pilots and crew from Airbus to Boeing, dump maintenance parts from Airbus to Boeing and other cost. I'm sorry what is the advantage here? You are telling me the neo is a costly plane to operate and buy while the max saves the airline ton on operating cost?
BA should hire you!


IAG is more than just BA.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:17 pm

seahawk wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
seahawk wrote:
They could cancel the NEOs and order the MAX, it all depends on the contracts. If the MAX + contract fees to Airbus is still significantly cheaper than the NEOs, it could make sense.

Not that this would be likely, but I have seen much crazier things to happen.

So you telling me the grand plan is to tell the airline to dump all the neos at a lost price, cancel the remaining neo.contract, retrain all the pilots and crew from Airbus to Boeing, dump maintenance parts from Airbus to Boeing and other cost. I'm sorry what is the advantage here? You are telling me the neo is a costly plane to operate and buy while the max saves the airline ton on operating cost?
BA should hire you!


IAG is more than just BA.

So tell will IAG (BA, EI, IB, LV, VY) will save a ton of money switching from NEO to MAX? Because the MAX is cheaper to buy means that IAG can somehow come out net positive? I think if Boeing gave away the Max for free they wouldn't be net positive for a long time
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9633
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:02 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
seahawk wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
So you telling me the grand plan is to tell the airline to dump all the neos at a lost price, cancel the remaining neo.contract, retrain all the pilots and crew from Airbus to Boeing, dump maintenance parts from Airbus to Boeing and other cost. I'm sorry what is the advantage here? You are telling me the neo is a costly plane to operate and buy while the max saves the airline ton on operating cost?
BA should hire you!


IAG is more than just BA.

So tell will IAG (BA, EI, IB, LV, VY) will save a ton of money switching from NEO to MAX? Because the MAX is cheaper to buy means that IAG can somehow come out net positive? I think if Boeing gave away the Max for free they wouldn't be net positive for a long time


I would believe they crunched the numbers before signing and keeping the LoI.
 
737max8
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:31 pm

B6JFKH81 wrote:
Aviator34ID wrote:
I see a couple of AC MAX's are on the move today.


I was shocked to hear, when I was in MZJ performing COVID-19 parking, that all the AC MAXs there still require some sorts of heavy checks for calendar driven items (not hours/cycles) and would have to go to/from Canada to get those checks done. After the check, back to the desert for storage again.


The MAX deliveries began in 2017 so many frames are due for their first heavy maintenance visit. Just wonder why they aren't waiting closer to RTS to do them.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A220 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A339 A343 A346 A359 A388
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 12:46 pm

It seems as if news on the MAX and a return to airworthiness has dropped off to near zero. Does anyone with inside knowledge know of work happening on this front?
smrtrthnu
 
ITSTours
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 8:31 pm

saab2000 wrote:
It seems as if news on the MAX and a return to airworthiness has dropped off to near zero. Does anyone with inside knowledge know of work happening on this front?


I was going to ask the same thing.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24323
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 8:50 pm

ITSTours wrote:
saab2000 wrote:
It seems as if news on the MAX and a return to airworthiness has dropped off to near zero. Does anyone with inside knowledge know of work happening on this front?

I was going to ask the same thing.

As far as I can tell, anyone who was an insider has left this forum after being badgered by various a.net "experts" explaining to them that they are wrong.

So, we are stuck with media reports, and those just have the usual "now + 3 or 4 months" dates that Boeing has been giving us for the last year or so.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15206
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:26 pm

Until the Covid-19 crises is at a point where most workers can safely return to work there will be zero to little progress. That means who knows when the MAX fix, training, approvals are done and if many of the planes will even be delivered due to the Covid-19 financial crash to all customer airlines.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 10:32 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Until the Covid-19 crises is at a point where most workers can safely return to work there will be zero to little progress. That means who knows when the MAX fix, training, approvals are done and if many of the planes will even be delivered due to the Covid-19 financial crash to all customer airlines.


I work for one of those customers and have probably a hundred or so hours in the Max. I enjoyed flying it and hope for a return to safe service sooner rather than later. But it’s all up in the air now. Pun intended.
smrtrthnu
 
Aviator34ID
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:34 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 1:12 am

saab2000 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Until the Covid-19 crises is at a point where most workers can safely return to work there will be zero to little progress. That means who knows when the MAX fix, training, approvals are done and if many of the planes will even be delivered due to the Covid-19 financial crash to all customer airlines.


I work for one of those customers and have probably a hundred or so hours in the Max. I enjoyed flying it and hope for a return to safe service sooner rather than later. But it’s all up in the air now. Pun intended.


Refreshing to hear from someone who has actually flown the aircraft.

Have you or others in your company done any simulator work involving MCAS since the grounding?

How are your company's check pilots maintaining currency? Just using the NG I guess.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 11124
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 2:02 am

Ethiopian expects compensation to be sorted with Boeing by end of June. They have also decided against filing a lawsuit against Boeing for the crash of ET302

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN22R1XA
Forum Moderator
 
saab2000
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 12:12 pm

Aviator34ID wrote:

Refreshing to hear from someone who has actually flown the aircraft.

Have you or others in your company done any simulator work involving MCAS since the grounding?

How are your company's check pilots maintaining currency? Just using the NG I guess.


Yes, I've flown it. It's nice and quiet and has a few neat things about it, most of which are minor improvements over the NG from the perspective of the pilot. Obviously, something was wrong in the initial release but I won't get too deep into those weeds as I'm not an engineer or check airman. Just a workaday line guy who flies a lot. I just hope Boeing and the authorities are able to re-release the airplane and that it's a big success over time.

I have done no MAX-specific simulator training yet, just some online training when they thought a re-release wasn't too far off. That's clearly no longer the case and frankly, trivial compared to what the industry is currently facing.

The check pilots are not doing anything differently than anyone else that I'm aware of to maintain currency but I've flown with one who was in the flight standards dept. and he didn't have much to say about it.

Most people with whom I discussed the matter liked the airplane. To dispel a lot of misinformation here, it is operated almost identically to the NGs. Obviously, there will be more significant differences training in the future with regards to MCAS, but there's no point in getting into that as I'm no engineer or test pilot or certification expert.
smrtrthnu
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24323
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 3:31 pm

Seattle Times reports FAA response to 737 MAX crash report preserves Boeing’s big role in certifying its own planes:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on Tuesday said it plans changes to how new airplane models are certified, but will preserve Boeing’s central role in that process — despite criticism that Boeing mistakes in certifying the 737 MAX allowed design flaws that killed 346 people in two crashes.

In a report released Tuesday, the FAA responded to recommendations made in January by an advisory committee set up by U.S. Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao, who oversees the FAA.

In a statement, the FAA said those recommendations confirmed that its existing safety protocols are “sound,” though there are “areas where we have opportunities to improve.”

So, all those posts about reformation of the FAA / vendor relationship seem to be moot now.

There's some verbiage acknowledging some of the issues, but no hint of sweeping reform.

Two congressmen are quoted about submitting legislation to enact major reform, but they seem to be in no rush to do so.

Interesting reminder at the end:

Chao’s advisory committee concluded that if the MAX had been certified as an all-new model of the jet, it “would not have produced more rigorous scrutiny … and would not have produced a safer airplane.”

The FAA welcomed that finding and noted that “application of new airworthiness standards, in some circumstances, can increase costs.” The current system for certifying a derivative airplane like the MAX, “balances these economic and safety outcomes,” the FAA report states.

So, more of the same from the FAA.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
kalvado
Posts: 2841
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 3:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seattle Times reports FAA response to 737 MAX crash report preserves Boeing’s big role in certifying its own planes:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on Tuesday said it plans changes to how new airplane models are certified, but will preserve Boeing’s central role in that process — despite criticism that Boeing mistakes in certifying the 737 MAX allowed design flaws that killed 346 people in two crashes.

In a report released Tuesday, the FAA responded to recommendations made in January by an advisory committee set up by U.S. Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao, who oversees the FAA.

In a statement, the FAA said those recommendations confirmed that its existing safety protocols are “sound,” though there are “areas where we have opportunities to improve.”

So, all those posts about reformation of the FAA / vendor relationship seem to be moot now.

There's some verbiage acknowledging some of the issues, but no hint of sweeping reform.

Two congressmen are quoted about submitting legislation to enact major reform, but they seem to be in no rush to do so.

Interesting reminder at the end:

Chao’s advisory committee concluded that if the MAX had been certified as an all-new model of the jet, it “would not have produced more rigorous scrutiny … and would not have produced a safer airplane.”

The FAA welcomed that finding and noted that “application of new airworthiness standards, in some circumstances, can increase costs.” The current system for certifying a derivative airplane like the MAX, “balances these economic and safety outcomes,” the FAA report states.

So, more of the same from the FAA.

I, for one, don't see government certification as a better process.
As an example, OSHA keeps a lot of red tape on a market of anything that "utilizes electric power", from flashlights to Teslas and heavy industrial machinery. EU has a self-certification program for the same purpose. Guess what, US isn't much safer place as a result of it...

But having Boeing to go bankrupt over the MAX story is probably a good immunization shot to remind the industry that self-certification comes with responsibility.
 
PWA732
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:43 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 7:14 pm

saab2000 wrote:
Aviator34ID wrote:

Refreshing to hear from someone who has actually flown the aircraft.

Have you or others in your company done any simulator work involving MCAS since the grounding?

How are your company's check pilots maintaining currency? Just using the NG I guess.


Yes, I've flown it. It's nice and quiet and has a few neat things about it, most of which are minor improvements over the NG from the perspective of the pilot. Obviously, something was wrong in the initial release but I won't get too deep into those weeds as I'm not an engineer or check airman. Just a workaday line guy who flies a lot. I just hope Boeing and the authorities are able to re-release the airplane and that it's a big success over time.

I have done no MAX-specific simulator training yet, just some online training when they thought a re-release wasn't too far off. That's clearly no longer the case and frankly, trivial compared to what the industry is currently facing.

The check pilots are not doing anything differently than anyone else that I'm aware of to maintain currency but I've flown with one who was in the flight standards dept. and he didn't have much to say about it.

Most people with whom I discussed the matter liked the airplane. To dispel a lot of misinformation here, it is operated almost identically to the NGs. Obviously, there will be more significant differences training in the future with regards to MCAS, but there's no point in getting into that as I'm no engineer or test pilot or certification expert.


Why will there be specific training with regard to the MCAS? The system does not exist as it did pre-June 2019.

It's automatic, and only occurs in a very specific configuration. As far as I was told, you cannot "train" for a MCAS event as the "upgrade" makes it nearly impossible to encounter outside a stall, even with multiple system malfunctions. They may "demonstrate it" functioning during a stall, but that will likely be it. The Boeing website details the changes. To say that MCAS has been "neutered" is putting it mildly.

There may be more training with regard to "trim runaway" scenarios, but I don't see why there would be more for the Max than are currently in place to train for the NG.

Pete.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24323
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 9:19 pm

PWA732 wrote:
Why will there be specific training with regard to the MCAS? The system does not exist as it did pre-June 2019.

It's automatic, and only occurs in a very specific configuration. As far as I was told, you cannot "train" for a MCAS event as the "upgrade" makes it nearly impossible to encounter outside a stall, even with multiple system malfunctions. They may "demonstrate it" functioning during a stall, but that will likely be it. The Boeing website details the changes. To say that MCAS has been "neutered" is putting it mildly.

There may be more training with regard to "trim runaway" scenarios, but I don't see why there would be more for the Max than are currently in place to train for the NG.

Pete.

Because it does exist, and it is needed for aircraft safety (MAX could not be certified without it) and because it can fail (it is implemented by a computer that can fail).

Also, because crews have demonstrated they aren't very good at following checklists, those checklists are now updated and hopefully additional training is going to be directed at the use of these checklists.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
kalvado
Posts: 2841
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 11:34 pm

PWA732 wrote:
saab2000 wrote:
Aviator34ID wrote:

Refreshing to hear from someone who has actually flown the aircraft.

Have you or others in your company done any simulator work involving MCAS since the grounding?

How are your company's check pilots maintaining currency? Just using the NG I guess.


Yes, I've flown it. It's nice and quiet and has a few neat things about it, most of which are minor improvements over the NG from the perspective of the pilot. Obviously, something was wrong in the initial release but I won't get too deep into those weeds as I'm not an engineer or check airman. Just a workaday line guy who flies a lot. I just hope Boeing and the authorities are able to re-release the airplane and that it's a big success over time.

I have done no MAX-specific simulator training yet, just some online training when they thought a re-release wasn't too far off. That's clearly no longer the case and frankly, trivial compared to what the industry is currently facing.

The check pilots are not doing anything differently than anyone else that I'm aware of to maintain currency but I've flown with one who was in the flight standards dept. and he didn't have much to say about it.

Most people with whom I discussed the matter liked the airplane. To dispel a lot of misinformation here, it is operated almost identically to the NGs. Obviously, there will be more significant differences training in the future with regards to MCAS, but there's no point in getting into that as I'm no engineer or test pilot or certification expert.


Why will there be specific training with regard to the MCAS? The system does not exist as it did pre-June 2019.

It's automatic, and only occurs in a very specific configuration. As far as I was told, you cannot "train" for a MCAS event as the "upgrade" makes it nearly impossible to encounter outside a stall, even with multiple system malfunctions. They may "demonstrate it" functioning during a stall, but that will likely be it. The Boeing website details the changes. To say that MCAS has been "neutered" is putting it mildly.

There may be more training with regard to "trim runaway" scenarios, but I don't see why there would be more for the Max than are currently in place to train for the NG.

Pete.

There has to be added training because MCAS deactivation means shrinking operational envelope. I suspect MCAS out will be treated somewhat close engine out or hydraulic system loss scenario - not in exact actions, but in overall philosophy of significant system failure. Possibly with some memory items (e.g. mandatory mayday call) and extra checklists would be added - and possibly practiced in sim sessions. Demos of MCAS proper operations may also be sim tasks.
 
Aviator34ID
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:34 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 6:04 am

Has anybody heard ANY scuttlebutt at all about progress?

It is pushing 2 months I think since there was any flying activity.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 7:57 am

Revelation wrote:

From your link:
"Drawing on the lessons taken from the MAX crashes, the agency said, it will give more scrutiny to potential pilot errors associated with the increased automation of airliner flight controls.
...
And the FAA said it will consider the capabilities of flight crews outside the U.S. when it looks at cockpit design and pilot training."
Does that mean that flying Boeing planes outside the US isn't safe? So when is Boeing going to recall them?

Further:
"The FAA said it will also clarify what sort of technical details those Boeing engineers are required to communicate directly to their counterparts at the FAA."
Suppose this legislation had to be older than the MAX. Would it have included MCAS?

I am shocked. Considering how long the MAX is grounded I thought it's taken serious.
Agreed, nobody has the expertise as Boeing employees. And as long as those Boeing employees who were involved in certification had to report and take orders from the FAA and not from Boeing, everything was fine. I really expected the former system which worked so well would be reintroduced.

Is Boeing unable to get the MAX safe or why this drama?
It's just like with Glass-Steagall. A good and proven legislation exists. Lobby groups prevent them to be enacted.
"In a democracy the elected representatives represent the interests of the people." Sure, and a king is king because he's chosen by god. A little bit more evidence would be nice.
Anyway not a smart conclusion. Foreign countries may not consider the FAA an authority any longer.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 8:01 am

kalvado wrote:
But having Boeing to go bankrupt over the MAX story is probably a good immunization shot to remind the industry that self-certification comes with responsibility.

That would be true if owner and managers were identical. For managers high risk pays as good performance is rewarded with bonuses. If the company goes bust, it's not their money.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2841
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 11:32 am

Sokes wrote:
kalvado wrote:
But having Boeing to go bankrupt over the MAX story is probably a good immunization shot to remind the industry that self-certification comes with responsibility.

That would be true if owner and managers were identical. For managers high risk pays as good performance is rewarded with bonuses. If the company goes bust, it's not their money.

I thought owners aka stockholders are the 9bes having the control over the management after all?
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 12:12 pm

seahawk wrote:
I would believe they crunched the numbers before signing and keeping the LoI.

Those numbers was for expansion not to replace the Neo
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24323
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 12:51 pm

Sokes wrote:
I am shocked. Considering how long the MAX is grounded I thought it's taken serious.
Agreed, nobody has the expertise as Boeing employees. And as long as those Boeing employees who were involved in certification had to report and take orders from the FAA and not from Boeing, everything was fine. I really expected the former system which worked so well would be reintroduced.

Is Boeing unable to get the MAX safe or why this drama?
It's just like with Glass-Steagall. A good and proven legislation exists. Lobby groups prevent them to be enacted.
"In a democracy the elected representatives represent the interests of the people." Sure, and a king is king because he's chosen by god. A little bit more evidence would be nice.
Anyway not a smart conclusion. Foreign countries may not consider the FAA an authority any longer.

There does seem to be an effort to avoid getting to the root cause of the problem.

FAA is being allowed to largely pass judgment on its own actions.

Congress's main investigatorial thrust seems to embarrass the Boeing CEO about his compensation because such snark elevates the jackals in Congress.

There are some very basic unanswered questions like how did MCAS get judged as non critical from a safety point of view, how was MCAS on MAX deemed the same as KC46 when it clearly was not, and why did no one do a test with a bad AoA sensor that would have shown MAX's issue before it was certified.

No one involved seems to want to get to the answers to these questions.

All of these seem to be core issue with Boeing's and FAA's processes, yet the FAA is now saying there is no problem with these processes.

We seem to be told that the processes are sound and would produce the right answers in other circumstances but no one is explaining why the processes got the wrong answers under the circumstances of the MAX program.

To use an old term, I am suffering from cognitive dissonance.

The report says the FAA will "try to ensure a more complete review of how the multiple systems in a jet may interact to provide a broader review of safety risks.". Try? Is this an admission that they have lost the ability to understand how multiple systems in a jet interact and can't evaluate safety risks?

I think one reason why these threads have gone dead silent is because it seems these questions are going to go unanswered.

Seattle Times has collected its Pulitzer Prize so it seems the press has patted itself on the back and can't be expected to do more.

The only hope for clarity is if the international regulators all say WTF, but then politics will be fully engaged and the last thing we will get is clarity.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4231
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 2:18 pm

The essence of the old system, as I understand it, and pictured it (may not be accurate), on major projects certain respected Boeing workers were appointed by the FAA and Boeing. The guys (generally) were capable, older, close enough to retirement, and upon being appointed worked as much for the FAA as for Boeing, but Boeing paid them. They reported, not to (Chicago mafia, Wall Street bandits) Boeing managers, but to the FAA. They were protected by the unions. They continued to work on the plane and its manufacturing. Their job was to ensure that the plane met the letter and spirit of safety regulations. If the regulations needed to be changed Boeing and the FAA, in an open process, did so. Sutter laid a lot of this out in his book.

So the Trump administration is going to 'try' to educate Boeing, the existing safety protocols are (and were) sound ((this is total bullshit)), or in their words, "FAA said Tuesday it will work to educate Boeing managers about the need to avoid exerting “undue pressure” on engineers overseeing the certification work" (Seattle Times).

I suspect any FAA person leaking this to the press or standing in the way of approval of all of this will join the long list of Friday Night Massacres. FAA persons with integrity likely are hinting to counterparts in Canada, the EU, China, Brazil that safety in the air will not happen so long as the current regime continues in office. Trump and his appointees may think they have scored another hit. Has anyone seen what the rest of the world is going to do about this?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
PWA732
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:43 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 2:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
PWA732 wrote:
Why will there be specific training with regard to the MCAS? The system does not exist as it did pre-June 2019.

It's automatic, and only occurs in a very specific configuration. As far as I was told, you cannot "train" for a MCAS event as the "upgrade" makes it nearly impossible to encounter outside a stall, even with multiple system malfunctions. They may "demonstrate it" functioning during a stall, but that will likely be it. The Boeing website details the changes. To say that MCAS has been "neutered" is putting it mildly.

There may be more training with regard to "trim runaway" scenarios, but I don't see why there would be more for the Max than are currently in place to train for the NG.

Pete.

Because it does exist, and it is needed for aircraft safety (MAX could not be certified without it) and because it can fail (it is implemented by a computer that can fail).

Also, because crews have demonstrated they aren't very good at following checklists, those checklists are now updated and hopefully additional training is going to be directed at the use of these checklists.


Can you define the concept of "failure" you are referring to? I am very aware of the difference between the old and new versions of MCAS. As far as I'm aware there could be two "failure" modes. One would consist of an un-commanded "runaway", which would be handled like any runway trim failure, and the second would be a "failure to function" when required. In the later, little can be done other than manually compensate for the increased dynamic loads that the MCAS didn't alleviate in a stall scenario.

A runaway of the new MCAS that would lead to a crash would be virtually impossible given the "improvements" detailed on Boeings website, which was the entire point of the fix.

I'm not convinced that specific MCAS training would be required, other than a demonstration of a "failure to compensate". If the aircraft was in a fully developed stall, and the MCAS failed to function as designed (if either pilot even noticed as it would be rather busy), the last thing I would do is call for a checklist that would say "manually compensate". The nearly impossible "MCAS runaway" scenario would be covered by existing "runaway stab trim" memory drills. There is no reason a trim runaway would be treated differently even if one knew the cause, MCAS or otherwise.

Respectfully, Pete.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 3:22 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
... certain respected Boeing workers were appointed by the FAA and Boeing. The guys (generally) were capable, older, close enough to retirement, and upon being appointed worked as much for the FAA as for Boeing, but Boeing paid them. They reported, not to (Chicago mafia, Wall Street bandits) Boeing managers, but to the FAA. They were protected by the unions. They continued to work on the plane and its manufacturing. ...

Interesting. It's division of powers with even the unions being involved. No wonder that system worked well.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24323
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 3:36 pm

PWA732 wrote:
Can you define the concept of "failure" you are referring to? I am very aware of the difference between the old and new versions of MCAS. As far as I'm aware there could be two "failure" modes. One would consist of an un-commanded "runaway", which would be handled like any runway trim failure, and the second would be a "failure to function" when required. In the later, little can be done other than manually compensate for the increased dynamic loads that the MCAS didn't alleviate in a stall scenario.

A runaway of the new MCAS that would lead to a crash would be virtually impossible given the "improvements" detailed on Boeings website, which was the entire point of the fix.

I'm not convinced that specific MCAS training would be required, other than a demonstration of a "failure to compensate". If the aircraft was in a fully developed stall, and the MCAS failed to function as designed (if either pilot even noticed as it would be rather busy), the last thing I would do is call for a checklist that would say "manually compensate". The nearly impossible "MCAS runaway" scenario would be covered by existing "runaway stab trim" memory drills. There is no reason a trim runaway would be treated differently even if one knew the cause, MCAS or otherwise.

Respectfully, Pete.

Yes, I am referring to the later failure, where the crew would need to be aware of the pitch-up due to the additional nacelle lift and forward CG of the LEAP engines on MAX, and compensate for it. I doubt the effect is severe, but it's enough for the airplane to be out of compliance. Also we have never seen data on this, all we have is Boeing's word. As per this thread EASA is requiring they be able to fly the MAX with MCAS disabled to gain an understanding of the effect.

As I understand it, the NG's flight control computer is in essence a glorified autopilot with autoland features. It doesn't need to be operational to safely fly the airplane. MCAS changed that. Now it needs to be there to maintain compliance, thus the need for active-active configuration of the two FCCs rather than active-standby. From what I read when there is a computer failure it goes offline and expects the pilots to hand fly the airplane. That's fine, but they will have to be aware of the pitch up and be trained to avoid it.

All this sounds like there will be new behaviors to be learned, plus we read the pilots weren't doing tremendously well following the old checklists, so it was felt more training will be needed. Even Boeing's CEO is saying sim training will be needed.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1114
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 6:21 pm

There was an article a couple of weeks back talking about progress - training updates were stalled, but Boeing was working on rewiring planes, and the minimum equipment lists were updated.

1 notable change was the requirement of a working autopilot since one of the MAX’s non-normal checklists calls for pilots to engage the autopilot as part of troubleshooting - related to spoilers, not MCAS.
 
AirBoat
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:58 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Thu May 21, 2020 7:28 pm

What happened to the manual trim wheel issue?
Do the Europeans still want a second electric trim motor?
 
Sokes
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, May 2020

Fri May 22, 2020 4:23 am

kalvado wrote:
So what is the message? That a 30% shareholder gets a bigger say in business operations, even outside of annual events, via their director on the board? Sure. That a 0.0001% ownership gives 0.0001% rights? Sure. So what?
An owner of 0.0001% will gladly collect their part of income - so let them eat their fraction of loss when company goes belly up.

Nordex paid Acciona money and shares for a division whose business was totally collapsed. Why would Nordex want to do that? Why would Susanne Klatten want to do that?
Susanne Klatten wants to do that because Acciona was willing to use the money from the sale to buy Susanne Klatten's shares. Acciona wants to do it, because Nordex was still valuable and they ended up with a shareholding that enables them to control Nordex.
Susanne Klatten could have said no to the deal, Acciona could have said no to the deal, but other Nordex shareholders were not even asked.
So who profits here? At whose cost?
You got the last word.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 13

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos