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jetlanta
Posts: 1671
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:09 pm

tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:

All that back and forth network add out of MIA and SEA right before COVID struck is a pretty indication at the bad blood between DL and AA. And you can bet that if DL continues with its plans to expand at MIA, it will face retaliations from AA elsewhere (even with AA in economic difficulties).

Also, it's quite telling that DL is bringing back SEA faster than all their other coastal hubs. It looks to be 100% committed to a long term war at SEA with AS and AA.


I'm not saying DL and AA are on friendly terms. They're not. I'm just saying DL isn't making major network planning decisions (like opening a new focus city/gateway) based primarily on a rivalry. With the Latam partnership they see an opportunity in MIA to build their brand. That's what's driving this.


I guess what I'm saying is that I believe some of the more recent moves are due to their ongoing feud. They may be giving things higher priorities due to the recent events starting with LA.

viewtopic.php?p=22316741
I do tend to agree with this a little bit. I don't think some of these moves like AA re-inserting itself in BOS/AUS or DL sticking with MIA expansion if there isn't some of grudge match going on. Before this, seemed to me DL saved all its animosity for AS and B6.


It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.
 
kondoo
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:34 am

Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:01 pm

jetlanta wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm not saying DL and AA are on friendly terms. They're not. I'm just saying DL isn't making major network planning decisions (like opening a new focus city/gateway) based primarily on a rivalry. With the Latam partnership they see an opportunity in MIA to build their brand. That's what's driving this.


I guess what I'm saying is that I believe some of the more recent moves are due to their ongoing feud. They may be giving things higher priorities due to the recent events starting with LA.

viewtopic.php?p=22316741
I do tend to agree with this a little bit. I don't think some of these moves like AA re-inserting itself in BOS/AUS or DL sticking with MIA expansion if there isn't some of grudge match going on. Before this, seemed to me DL saved all its animosity for AS and B6.


It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.



ALL of this would make a lot of sense 5 months ago. Why would they want to be losing tons of money right now fighting each other (or in a few months) when they are trying to save money everywhere else by layoff people, etc.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5038
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:20 pm

jetlanta wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm not saying DL and AA are on friendly terms. They're not. I'm just saying DL isn't making major network planning decisions (like opening a new focus city/gateway) based primarily on a rivalry. With the Latam partnership they see an opportunity in MIA to build their brand. That's what's driving this.


I guess what I'm saying is that I believe some of the more recent moves are due to their ongoing feud. They may be giving things higher priorities due to the recent events starting with LA.

viewtopic.php?p=22316741
I do tend to agree with this a little bit. I don't think some of these moves like AA re-inserting itself in BOS/AUS or DL sticking with MIA expansion if there isn't some of grudge match going on. Before this, seemed to me DL saved all its animosity for AS and B6.


It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

After reading some posters on here, one could be forgiven for thinking AA v. DL is just another season of Beverly Hills 90210!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26651
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:19 pm

kondoo wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I guess what I'm saying is that I believe some of the more recent moves are due to their ongoing feud. They may be giving things higher priorities due to the recent events starting with LA.

viewtopic.php?p=22316741
I do tend to agree with this a little bit. I don't think some of these moves like AA re-inserting itself in BOS/AUS or DL sticking with MIA expansion if there isn't some of grudge match going on. Before this, seemed to me DL saved all its animosity for AS and B6.


It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.



ALL of this would make a lot of sense 5 months ago. Why would they want to be losing tons of money right now fighting each other (or in a few months) when they are trying to save money everywhere else by layoff people, etc.


Short term losses for long term gains. There is certainly an expectation that travel will swing back up in the next few years. I mean, that’s a given. We’ll probably be back to 2020 traffic levels in less than three years.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:19 am

jetlanta wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm not saying DL and AA are on friendly terms. They're not. I'm just saying DL isn't making major network planning decisions (like opening a new focus city/gateway) based primarily on a rivalry. With the Latam partnership they see an opportunity in MIA to build their brand. That's what's driving this.


I guess what I'm saying is that I believe some of the more recent moves are due to their ongoing feud. They may be giving things higher priorities due to the recent events starting with LA.

viewtopic.php?p=22316741
I do tend to agree with this a little bit. I don't think some of these moves like AA re-inserting itself in BOS/AUS or DL sticking with MIA expansion if there isn't some of grudge match going on. Before this, seemed to me DL saved all its animosity for AS and B6.


It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.


Delta wanting a Miami presence for years and years is because of it being the Latin American fortress city that it is. The reason it didn't set up tent there all this time was for four reasons: Eastern. American. Pan Am. And lack of Latin American feed of its own. (It would have had the latter had times been better and sunk 1.9B into a Pan Am South American division, with due respect to the brilliant legacy of Pan Am). Delta also expressed interest in Dallas and Miami during American's bankruptcy. So I would have to say Delta's Miami move is very much about American, in that American has and has had a strong position there (brand, facilities and network) ever since purchasing Delta's archrival's S.A. division. To put it another way: Delta is now playing in American's southern sandbox, but now has its own LATAM bully to protect it. (Sorry for keeping it in the petulant baby theme, but have to say that airline decision making is at least half that mentality, IMO, and is a bit why the airline industry can be so personal to us fans)!
 
Lootess
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:23 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
kondoo wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.



ALL of this would make a lot of sense 5 months ago. Why would they want to be losing tons of money right now fighting each other (or in a few months) when they are trying to save money everywhere else by layoff people, etc.


Short term losses for long term gains. There is certainly an expectation that travel will swing back up in the next few years. I mean, that’s a given. We’ll probably be back to 2020 traffic levels in less than three years.


Yep, even WN's Gary Kelly admits this is a good time to plan on getting gains coming out of the pandemic. You still have to run a business and figure out how through the looking glass how to grow and make money after the payroll support ends. I just look back at what DL did at SEA with AS, they really didn't let their partnership stop them from growing domestically and they kindly brushed off each other as doing their own thing.
 
jfk777
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:26 am

TYWoolman wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I guess what I'm saying is that I believe some of the more recent moves are due to their ongoing feud. They may be giving things higher priorities due to the recent events starting with LA.

viewtopic.php?p=22316741
I do tend to agree with this a little bit. I don't think some of these moves like AA re-inserting itself in BOS/AUS or DL sticking with MIA expansion if there isn't some of grudge match going on. Before this, seemed to me DL saved all its animosity for AS and B6.


It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.


Delta wanting a Miami presence for years and years is because of it being the Latin American fortress city that it is. The reason it didn't set up tent there all this time was for four reasons: Eastern. American. Pan Am. And lack of Latin American feed of its own. (It would have had the latter had times been better and sunk 1.9B into a Pan Am South American division, with due respect to the brilliant legacy of Pan Am). Delta also expressed interest in Dallas and Miami during American's bankruptcy. So I would have to say Delta's Miami move is very much about American, in that American has and has had a strong position there (brand, facilities and network) ever since purchasing Delta's archrival's S.A. division. To put it another way: Delta is now playing in American's southern sandbox, but now has its own LATAM bully to protect it. (Sorry for keeping it in the petulant baby theme, but have to say that airline decision making is at least half that mentality, IMO, and is a bit why the airline industry can be so personal to us fans)!


Why is Delta so in love with Miami, 30 years ago they didn't fly from ATL to South America, in 1996 an MD-11 flight to GRU started changing that. Delta now flies to all major cities and shows not flying to Miami is viable. People have this "Miami" mentality, the MIA airport sucks and should be avoided unless your destination is Miami. Delta should leave the Miami flying to LATAM and try to have the bulk of the connecting traffic over ATL, how cool would it be if the LATAM Star Wars 777 flew to ATL regularly.

LATAM should also have its own flights to Atlanta in parallel with Delta from Sao Paulo, Lima and Santiago. For this JV to work well, LATAM has to fly outside the Miami & JFK "comfort zone" so many Latin airlines stick too. IF Delta flew A330's from Miami to Latin America that would really choke AA, so lets see who flinches first.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:44 am

jfk777 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

It is not a feud. Can we stop acting like these people are petulant babies. It is competition. Each airline is making moves it thinks will make it more successful. Delta has wanted a MIA presence for years and years. Its not about AA. It is about DL.


Delta wanting a Miami presence for years and years is because of it being the Latin American fortress city that it is. The reason it didn't set up tent there all this time was for four reasons: Eastern. American. Pan Am. And lack of Latin American feed of its own. (It would have had the latter had times been better and sunk 1.9B into a Pan Am South American division, with due respect to the brilliant legacy of Pan Am). Delta also expressed interest in Dallas and Miami during American's bankruptcy. So I would have to say Delta's Miami move is very much about American, in that American has and has had a strong position there (brand, facilities and network) ever since purchasing Delta's archrival's S.A. division. To put it another way: Delta is now playing in American's southern sandbox, but now has its own LATAM bully to protect it. (Sorry for keeping it in the petulant baby theme, but have to say that airline decision making is at least half that mentality, IMO, and is a bit why the airline industry can be so personal to us fans)!


Why is Delta so in love with Miami, 30 years ago they didn't fly from ATL to South America, in 1996 an MD-11 flight to GRU started changing that. Delta now flies to all major cities and shows not flying to Miami is viable. People have this "Miami" mentality, the MIA airport sucks and should be avoided unless your destination is Miami. Delta should leave the Miami flying to LATAM and try to have the bulk of the connecting traffic over ATL, how cool would it be if the LATAM Star Wars 777 flew to ATL regularly.

LATAM should also have its own flights to Atlanta in parallel with Delta from Sao Paulo, Lima and Santiago. For this JV to work well, LATAM has to fly outside the Miami & JFK "comfort zone" so many Latin airlines stick too. IF Delta flew A330's from Miami to Latin America that would really choke AA, so lets see who flinches first.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:51 am

Delta's original plan with Latam is a dual hub strategy: Atlanta and Miami, for pretty much the reasons you mentioned. Sure they made Atlanta work, but a Miami presense broadens the network, while going directly after a little of American's traffic.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:51 pm

 
Trippe747
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:57 pm

 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:35 pm

JV received final approval in Brazil. Still need approval in other markets like Chile and U.S.

https://news.delta.com/delta-and-latam- ... -agreement
 
ChrisPBacon
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:06 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Why is Delta so in love with Miami, 30 years ago they didn't fly from ATL to South America, in 1996 an MD-11 flight to GRU started changing that. Delta now flies to all major cities and shows not flying to Miami is viable. People have this "Miami" mentality, the MIA airport sucks and should be avoided unless your destination is Miami. Delta should leave the Miami flying to LATAM and try to have the bulk of the connecting traffic over ATL, how cool would it be if the LATAM Star Wars 777 flew to ATL regularly.

LATAM should also have its own flights to Atlanta in parallel with Delta from Sao Paulo, Lima and Santiago. For this JV to work well, LATAM has to fly outside the Miami & JFK "comfort zone" so many Latin airlines stick too. IF Delta flew A330's from Miami to Latin America that would really choke AA, so lets see who flinches first.


Because Delta can see the yield AA gets from MIA O&D traffic. They want a piece.

Why does LATAM need to fly outside the “comfort zone”? Why not leverage LATAM by letting them do what they do best? MIA and JFK are big O&D markets that DL can add a bit of connecting traffic to. DL can leverage ATL to flow connecting traffic through. Right now any airline would be crazy to not focus on the strongest of their strengths.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:07 pm

LAXintl,

That DL press article you linked is dated 9/18/20.
 
rjbesikof
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:50 pm

If AA does not come back onto the route could DL or LATAM maybe add LAX-GRU?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:47 pm

Here is LATAM/DL statement from yesterday.

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvFDxaSWQAA ... =4096x4096
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:02 pm

Have they said in any earnings call when they expect full JV approval from all applicable governments?
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:23 am

rjbesikof wrote:
If AA does not come back onto the route could DL or LATAM maybe add LAX-GRU?


Even if AA does (and I'll admit to being an AA fan boy in this case), this JV is designed specifically for cases like this.

If LATAM wished to do that before, they would have competed with AA.

I get that many are advocating for greater presence of DL at MIA, but it might truly be not that necessary, save for cherry picking if/when available.

This JV provides LATAM with an opportunity - to compete against AA in the markets that LATAM is strongest (coincidentally, these are the markets that AA is strongest in as well) - and take shelter with DL for almost everything else, (i.e expand to more than just MIA and/or JFK). LATAM needs to accept that AA Is now a competitor, and compete - and based on what it needs right now, DL is the best partner in the U.S. for that pairing. I wish them both well.
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:47 am

You couldn't have dreamed LATAM and Delta coming together for a JV like five or so years ago, when they were happy to be with GOL as the only real partner left out there. This is a more complimentary relationship, It's going to take awhile but definitely will be more fruitful to them than AA was. I'm sure they saw enough in Delta with how their JV worked for Virgin Atlantic and Air France-KLM.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Tue May 11, 2021 6:01 pm

LATAM and Delta received approval from Colombia for their proposed JV.

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/lat ... -colombia/
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Tue May 11, 2021 7:26 pm

LAXintl wrote:
LATAM and Delta received approval from Colombia for their proposed JV.

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/lat ... -colombia/


So which countries are left? I know Chile is one of them.
 
RDRogel
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu May 13, 2021 11:07 am

Still not joining Skyteam?
 
RDRogel
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu May 13, 2021 11:08 am

If LATAM joins Skyteam, the alliance has to let go of Aerolineas Argentinas and join Oneworld.
 
AAIL86
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu May 13, 2021 12:39 pm

The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu May 13, 2021 4:55 pm

AAIL86 wrote:
The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?


Absolutely, while this is a major hiccup (understatement), this JV is a long-term play. Hopefully it will be implemented by the time traffic rebounds significantly, allowing it to capture the traffic.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 305
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu May 13, 2021 10:10 pm

AAIL86 wrote:
The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?


I don’t think this is “the real question.” It is simply another question.

Air traffic will not match pre-COVID levels before 2024. Most corporate strategies are 5-7 years out and long range financial plans are typically three years out. It would be short sighted of Delta to do nothing based on what the next two year projections look like — especially if the tactics are aligned with a strategic imperative.
 
RvA
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu May 13, 2021 10:22 pm

RDRogel wrote:
If LATAM joins Skyteam, the alliance has to let go of Aerolineas Argentinas and join Oneworld.


They “have” to?
 
Sascha81
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri May 14, 2021 12:18 am

RvA wrote:
RDRogel wrote:
If LATAM joins Skyteam, the alliance has to let go of Aerolineas Argentinas and join Oneworld.


Why only Oneworld? Why not to Star Alliance?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri May 14, 2021 12:25 am

jbs2886 wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?


Absolutely, while this is a major hiccup (understatement), this JV is a long-term play. Hopefully it will be implemented by the time traffic rebounds significantly, allowing it to capture the traffic.


I think a real question is "What is going to be left of LATAM when they emerge from bankruptcy?"

LATAM Argentina closed.
LATAM Colombia is bleeding money.
LATAM Brasil has slipped to 3rd place in marketshare.
LATAM Ecuador would be in a good position with the demise of TAME but the revival of Ecuatoriana suggests that the domestic overcapacity issues aren't going anywhere.
LATAM Chile/Peru/Paraguay are solid (although PZ is tiny).
 
dcajet
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri May 14, 2021 12:43 am

usflyer msp wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?


Absolutely, while this is a major hiccup (understatement), this JV is a long-term play. Hopefully it will be implemented by the time traffic rebounds significantly, allowing it to capture the traffic.


I think a real question is "What is going to be left of LATAM when they emerge from bankruptcy?"

LATAM Argentina closed.
LATAM Colombia is bleeding money.
LATAM Brasil has slipped to 3rd place in marketshare.
LATAM Ecuador would be in a good position with the demise of TAME but the revival of Ecuatoriana suggests that the domestic overcapacity issues aren't going anywhere.
LATAM Chile/Peru/Paraguay are solid (although PZ is tiny).


I wonder if LATAM Paraguay has its own P&L? I mean, they not even have a single plane to their name...
 
RDRogel
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri May 14, 2021 11:08 am

Sascha81 wrote:
RvA wrote:


Why only Oneworld? Why not to Star Alliance?


Star has already Colombia's Avianca in its membership.
 
RDRogel
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri May 14, 2021 11:09 am

And Brazil's Azul plans to join Star endorsed by United.
 
AAIL86
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Fri May 14, 2021 12:38 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?


I don’t think this is “the real question.” It is simply another question.

Air traffic will not match pre-COVID levels before 2024. Most corporate strategies are 5-7 years out and long range financial plans are typically three years out. It would be short sighted of Delta to do nothing based on what the next two year projections look like — especially if the tactics are aligned with a strategic imperative.


My point is that some are debating this and other topics like its 2019. All bets are off. There are so many more hypotheticals now then there would be in 'normal' times which makes some of these arguments downright academic. It's not even certain LATAM will survive in its current form as someone else pointed out.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sun May 16, 2021 3:43 am

AAIL86 wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?


I don’t think this is “the real question.” It is simply another question.

Air traffic will not match pre-COVID levels before 2024. Most corporate strategies are 5-7 years out and long range financial plans are typically three years out. It would be short sighted of Delta to do nothing based on what the next two year projections look like — especially if the tactics are aligned with a strategic imperative.


My point is that some are debating this and other topics like its 2019. All bets are off. There are so many more hypotheticals now then there would be in 'normal' times which makes some of these arguments downright academic. It's not even certain LATAM will survive in its current form as someone else pointed out.


Thanks for clarifying your point of view. I agree that there are a lot of unknown variables and a fair amount of risk involved.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Sun May 16, 2021 3:58 am

gaystudpilot wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:

I don’t think this is “the real question.” It is simply another question.

Air traffic will not match pre-COVID levels before 2024. Most corporate strategies are 5-7 years out and long range financial plans are typically three years out. It would be short sighted of Delta to do nothing based on what the next two year projections look like — especially if the tactics are aligned with a strategic imperative.


My point is that some are debating this and other topics like its 2019. All bets are off. There are so many more hypotheticals now then there would be in 'normal' times which makes some of these arguments downright academic. It's not even certain LATAM will survive in its current form as someone else pointed out.


Thanks for clarifying your point of view. I agree that there are a lot of unknown variables and a fair amount of risk involved.

More upside than downside probably
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Tue May 25, 2021 10:00 pm

DOT is out today with an order requesting parties supply a long list of additional information in order to analyze the proposal.

From reading between the lines seems DOT is carefully looking at how the competition plays out between United States/Canada and the South American region in a post COVID world, and if parties will really will grow consumer options and competition as they promise. Also has some questions of how the relationship AeroMexico which DL has JV with also play into the bigger picture even though they are not a direct party to this agreement.

DOT-OST-2020-0105
 
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OA412
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Tue May 25, 2021 11:06 pm

Hopefully the DOT denies it. LATAM is simply too big.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Tue May 25, 2021 11:39 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Hopefully the DOT denies it. LATAM is simply too big.

That's not a procedural/political reason for denial.

They have no reason to care about "big," their concern is whether competition/entrants can be effectively stifled and prices artificially held high.

AvGeeks automatically conflate and assume big to be synonymous therewith; and sometimes it can be. But (often) not. Hence the proposal and review.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Tue May 25, 2021 11:43 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Hopefully the DOT denies it. LATAM is simply too big.


And then you can kiss any possibility of DTW-GRU/GIG/SCL goodbye. It's amazing these DTW folks complain about the level of service they supoosedly lack, and yet shoot themselves in the foot by wanting things like this to happen.

Regardless, LA has shrunk tremendously post-covid, so your point in illegitimate.
 
dcajet
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Wed May 26, 2021 12:12 am

777Mech wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Hopefully the DOT denies it. LATAM is simply too big.


And then you can kiss any possibility of DTW-GRU/GIG/SCL goodbye. It's amazing these DTW folks complain about the level of service they supoosedly lack, and yet shoot themselves in the foot by wanting things like this to happen.

Regardless, LA has shrunk tremendously post-covid, so your point in illegitimate.


JV approved or not, I highly doubt there is a chance for any DTW - South America services in the foreseeable future, Delta tried GRU (the only market in the region that could sustain such services) a few years ago and it was a money pit. Fast forward to 2021. Ford announced it is quitting manufacturing in Brazil, making for even less demand.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Wed May 26, 2021 9:22 am

AAIL86 wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
The real question is does any of this even matter now? US- South America traffic is still down what, 90 percent at least? Given the global pace of vaccinations, one has to think it will take most of South America at least a year to get even partial coverage, and what, 2 years more after that for traffic to potentially rebound? Some may question that timeframe, but look how long its taking to achieve even a US-UK airbridge?


I don’t think this is “the real question.” It is simply another question.

Air traffic will not match pre-COVID levels before 2024. Most corporate strategies are 5-7 years out and long range financial plans are typically three years out. It would be short sighted of Delta to do nothing based on what the next two year projections look like — especially if the tactics are aligned with a strategic imperative.


My point is that some are debating this and other topics like its 2019. All bets are off. There are so many more hypotheticals now then there would be in 'normal' times which makes some of these arguments downright academic. It's not even certain LATAM will survive in its current form as someone else pointed out.


Or - to take that argument even further - the DL/LATAM JV was conceived and formed during pre-pandemic times. It must be open to debate that the JV in its current negotiated and approved format may not be optimal for both businesses in the post-pandemic environment, and that it might need modification to meet future market and business conditions. How will the market and demand for international air travel be different to 2019, post 2023, 2024 and beyond? If LATAM emerges from the pandemic a quarter of the size it was before the pandemic, then that must affect the viability of the JV.

This, of course, holds true for all airlines' business arrangements, not just the DL/LATAM JV. The QF/EK JV is another one that springs to mind that will need modification.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Delta-LATAM sign JV Agreement

Thu May 27, 2021 3:17 am

vhtje wrote:
AAIL86 wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:

I don’t think this is “the real question.” It is simply another question.

Air traffic will not match pre-COVID levels before 2024. Most corporate strategies are 5-7 years out and long range financial plans are typically three years out. It would be short sighted of Delta to do nothing based on what the next two year projections look like — especially if the tactics are aligned with a strategic imperative.


My point is that some are debating this and other topics like its 2019. All bets are off. There are so many more hypotheticals now then there would be in 'normal' times which makes some of these arguments downright academic. It's not even certain LATAM will survive in its current form as someone else pointed out.


Or - to take that argument even further - the DL/LATAM JV was conceived and formed during pre-pandemic times. It must be open to debate that the JV in its current negotiated and approved format may not be optimal for both businesses in the post-pandemic environment, and that it might need modification to meet future market and business conditions. How will the market and demand for international air travel be different to 2019, post 2023, 2024 and beyond? If LATAM emerges from the pandemic a quarter of the size it was before the pandemic, then that must affect the viability of the JV.

This, of course, holds true for all airlines' business arrangements, not just the DL/LATAM JV. The QF/EK JV is another one that springs to mind that will need modification.


Agree. No doubt there is a lot of scenario planning and modeling occurring.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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DL-LATAM JV?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:04 pm

Has there been any movement on coordination between these carriers? I was curious to see if DL will try to make some effort to ramp up MIA, or LATAM doing the same in ATL or even DTW.

Thanks!
 
patdt146
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Re: DL-LATAM JV?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:11 am

This has completely dropped out of the news, except for the mention that Azul was looking at "consolidation." If that happens, I'd imagine the JV is dead (United would have a thing or two to say about it, at least). Is that the case?
 
NW
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Re: DL-LATAM JV?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:22 am

It's still in the works and approvals are still coming from the various countries that Delta and LATAM applied for. I doubt we will see much movement with regards to cooperative efforts and adding flights in key markets till the virus is under control in Latin/South America.
 
dcajet
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Re: DL-LATAM JV?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:44 am

BN727227Ultra wrote:
Has there been any movement on coordination between these carriers? I was curious to see if DL will try to make some effort to ramp up MIA, or LATAM doing the same in ATL or even DTW.

Thanks!


Specifically regarding the JV request, there have been some developments lately and perhaps not all are the kind DL & LA would like to have seen.

* Brazil and Colombia have approved the JV

* The US DOT has requested more info before they even consider the request. Basically the DOT´s position is that the JV request was filed pre-COVID and includes market assumptions that are no longer valid in a post pandemic world, hence the request for an amended filing.

* Chile´s TDC (Tribunal de Defensa de la Compentencia) has not expressed their opinion yet, But keep in mind they are the ones who thumbed down the AA/LA/IAG JV request that eventually was the catalyst that brought down the AA & LA marriage

On another note, Delta did add some more services at Miami, (to Orlando and Tampa, IIRC), to provide feed for LA but these were cancelled in 2020 during the worst of the pandemic.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: DL-LATAM JV?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:12 am

dcajet wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
Has there been any movement on coordination between these carriers? I was curious to see if DL will try to make some effort to ramp up MIA, or LATAM doing the same in ATL or even DTW.

Thanks!


Specifically regarding the JV request, there have been some developments lately and perhaps not all are the kind DL & LA would like to have seen.

* Brazil and Colombia have approved the JV

* The US DOT has requested more info before they even consider the request. Basically the DOT´s position is that the JV request was filed pre-COVID and includes market assumptions that are no longer valid in a post pandemic world, hence the request for an amended filing.

* Chile´s TDC (Tribunal de Defensa de la Compentencia) has not expressed their opinion yet, But keep in mind they are the ones who thumbed down the AA/LA/IAG JV request that eventually was the catalyst that brought down the AA & LA marriage

On another note, Delta did add some more services at Miami, (to Orlando and Tampa, IIRC), to provide feed for LA but these were cancelled in 2020 during the worst of the pandemic.


It looks like it will take DL and LATAM a significant amount of time to realize much benefit from this much ballyhooed JV. Latin America and specifically, some of the biggest markets are struggling with COVID infection rates, led by Brazil which recently passed 500,000 deaths with no signs of letting up. Business travel to the region will remain muted, including Chile and Argentina. I'd expect DL to all but shelve its MIA hublet plans for the foreseeable future. While demand to and from MIA will likely remain pretty strong, particularly as the Northern Hemisphere winter season rolls out, yields are likely to be a lot lower with all the expansion from NK, B6, WN, and AA fighting back and using 777/77W on a lot of domestic routes.
 
RDRogel
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Re: DL-LATAM JV?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:33 pm

Any plans for LATAM to join Skyteam?
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: DL-LATAM JV?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:45 pm

RDRogel wrote:

Any plans for LATAM to join Skyteam?


IIRC there no concrete plans for LA to join ST, but with a DL JV in place they wouldn't need to do much more than snuggle up to AF/KL/AM to get 90% of the benefits without the costs of membership. Down the road when LA finances improve the chances increase IMO.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL-LATAM JV?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:56 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
It looks like it will take DL and LATAM a significant amount of time to realize much benefit from this much ballyhooed JV.


Probably, but the money is gone: $2.25 Billion of it. The worry isn't how much they spent but instead how they adjust plans to new circumstances. Codesharing and reciprocal benefits are easy.

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