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dcajet
Posts: 4688
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Thu May 14, 2020 12:10 am

RCS763AV wrote:

Those numbers show revenue per country and not revenue per company, so they're not entirely accurate. A lot of ex-Argentina ASMs are actually flown by Latam Chile, Peru. Paraguay and Brazil. And regarding my post, fleet wise LATAM Argentina is actually smaller than LATAM Colombia, although bigger by ASMs due to the EZE-MIA route. However, I said LATAM Argentina because I believe they're at higher risk of liquidation given the current government of Argentina is unfriendly to foreign businesses and the operation poses a bigger risk to the group than those of Colombia and Ecuador for that reason.



I never said they were revenue by company, rather LATAM's footprint on each market. And regarding fleet, LATAM Colombia does not have a single passenger plane to its name, rather they are all cycled via the LIM hub from the Chile and Peru operations, according to the scheduling needs. How many are there at any given time in Colombia? I am just curious and asking you.

As to 4M, I would not worry very much, barring further bad news regarding the pandemic. LATAM knows how to play the game in Argentina - keep in mind they were sponsored into the country by none other than the Kirchners. They have been extremely conservative over the past few years when the market was liberalizing under Macri. So they find themselves now with a very tight ship - and less exposed than the competition.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Fri May 15, 2020 2:37 pm

dcajet wrote:
I never said they were revenue by company, rather LATAM's footprint on each market.


You literally said:

dcajet wrote:
Your size idea for LATAM subsidiaries and actual footprint in the different regional markets they operate is a bit off.


dcajet wrote:
And regarding fleet, LATAM Colombia does not have a single passenger plane to its name, rather they are all cycled via the LIM hub from the Chile and Peru operations, according to the scheduling needs. How many are there at any given time in Colombia? I am just curious and asking you.


LATAM Colombia operates a fleet of 16 A320 aircraft.

Airlines0613 wrote:
If I’m correct, I remember hearing the SAL operations were the only profitable market for AV, pre-COVID of course. I think they both would fare better with a demerger.

Also, UA, CM, and AV were planning to have a JV throughout all of Latin America, so I believe they can prosper if they can make it out of this hole in the future


The whole thing is loosing money due to the extreme indebtedness except for the Ecuador operation which is minimal, and operates a lot of flights on a UIO-BOG-XXX base.

Regarding the JV, it has been under negotiation for so long that I really never understood what was so complicated about it. If they succeed it will surely be beneficial for the companies but I think the three of them need for this crisis to pass and to get back on their feet before JV talks continue. I don't see it as a near term solution.

On other news, Avianca is the first to fall in the region but others might soon follow:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-latam-airlines-ana/latin-americas-airlines-pray-for-bailouts-to-avoid-aviancas-fate-idUSKBN22P1LZ

This is due to: Reluctance of governments to giving bailouts, tighter lockdowns and less willingness to reopen markets, weaker financial position of the regions carriers before the COVID pandemic in contrast to carriers in other regions of the world.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Fri May 15, 2020 2:37 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
dcajet wrote:
I never said they were revenue by company, rather LATAM's footprint on each market.


You literally said:

dcajet wrote:
Your size idea for LATAM subsidiaries and actual footprint in the different regional markets they operate is a bit off.


dcajet wrote:
And regarding fleet, LATAM Colombia does not have a single passenger plane to its name, rather they are all cycled via the LIM hub from the Chile and Peru operations, according to the scheduling needs. How many are there at any given time in Colombia? I am just curious and asking you.


LATAM Colombia operates a fleet of 16 A320 aircraft.

Airlines0613 wrote:
If I’m correct, I remember hearing the SAL operations were the only profitable market for AV, pre-COVID of course. I think they both would fare better with a demerger.

Also, UA, CM, and AV were planning to have a JV throughout all of Latin America, so I believe they can prosper if they can make it out of this hole in the future


The whole thing is losing money due to the extreme indebtedness except for the Ecuador operation which is minimal, and operates a lot of flights on a UIO-BOG-XXX base.

Regarding the JV, it has been under negotiation for so long that I really never understood what was so complicated about it. If they succeed it will surely be beneficial for the companies but I think the three of them need for this crisis to pass and to get back on their feet before JV talks continue. I don't see it as a near term solution.

On other news, Avianca is the first to fall in the region but others might soon follow:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-latam-airlines-ana/latin-americas-airlines-pray-for-bailouts-to-avoid-aviancas-fate-idUSKBN22P1LZ

This is due to: Reluctance of governments to giving bailouts, tighter lockdowns and less willingness to reopen markets, weaker financial position of the regions carriers before the COVID pandemic in contrast to carriers in other regions of the world.
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Fri May 22, 2020 8:54 am

airboss787 wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
airboss787 wrote:
Is this the biggest airline in terms of revenue, fleet size, pax carried to enter into some sort of bankruptcy proceeding?

I'd say the largest worldwide after Mexicana...


Sorry for being off topic, but are you sure? From what I remember, DL, UA, AA and NW were all bigger than Mexicana’s.

Wait I think I jumped ahead 2 early...I was thinking that Avianca was going out of business..
 
danipawa
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:28 pm

Airbus A330 -343 1357 N803AV Avianca Colombia ferried 24jun20 MDE-HAM on return to Goal Aviation Leasing ex B-22101
Airbus A330 -343 1378 N804AV Avianca Colombia ferried 20jun20 MDE-HAM on return to Goal Aviation Leasing ex B-22102
Airbus A321 -231 6294 D-AAAM Goal Aviation Leasing N-reg canx 16jun20, Avianca cs, prior ferry HAM-ETMN for storage ex M810AV
ATR 72 ‑212A(600) 1196 HK-5324 Avianca Colombia ferried 22-24jun20 BOG-SJO-BRO-BYH on return to lessor (+ 1199 HK-5323 ex TG-TRF) ex TG-TRE
ATR 72 ‑212A(600) 1231 HK-5109 Avianca Colombia ferried 23-25jun20 MDE-SJO-BRO-BYH on return to lessor ex F-WWEF

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=3
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:33 pm

Avianca remains optimistic about securing up to $2 billion USD in DIP financing, but things are not looking good given that airline has a negative asset value of $355 million at end of Q2 of 2020. Bancolombia expresses doubts that AV can obtain USD financing.

https://www.financecolombia.com/unimpressed-by-dip-financing-plan-bancolombia-terminates-coverage-of-avianca/
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Avianca gets US$370M state-backed loan; controversy

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:58 pm

Avianca, operating under Ch. 11, has received a loan for up to COP$1.4 billion (approx. USD 370 million) in financing from the Colombian government, the first major career in Latin America to receive such aid. The loan has been guaranteed by AV with assets including its participation in the LifeMiles program and Avianca Cargo (which is a separate airline). It is approximately 20% of the total amount of DIP Financing that the airline is looking to secure under Ch 11.

The Government has argued it is vowing to secure vital connections and transportation infrastructure in a country with defficient alternative modes of transportation, Avianca's hub operation in Bogotá which is a valuable asset, the fact that the company accounts for 1.4% of the national GDP and that in generates up to 500.000 direct and indirect jobs. However, large contorversies have come up in the country, with academics and politicians citing protectionist measures favorable the dominant carrier, the fact that the holding company is based in Panama to elude paying income tax in Colombia and the fact that the Colombian government has been very austere with coronavirus aid measures regarding small and mid-sized companies. More political, controversy has risen given that Avianca's chief of public relations is none other thath the predsident's sister, Maria Paula Duque.

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/airlines-lessors/avianca-lands-colombian-financing-part-restructuring

Although I mostly agree with one of the criticisms (the fact that other economic measures have been austere), truth is the Government is taking the right action in securing AV's future. If BOG lost its main carrier it would take more than a decade to rebuild the hub, that is if an airline was interested, much to Colombia's chagrin and the advantage of competing PTY. Other countries have poured tens of billions into their respective carriers, so $370 million doesn't make a huge sum when speaking macroeconomically, specially when it's a loan. Also, speaking of supposed protectionism, the government has also offered loans to the other carriers operating in the market, which haven't been taken up yet.

It's also important to point out that Latin America had the harshest lockdown and travel restriction measures in the world, having some of the longest quarantines in countries like Colombia, Peru and Chile. For example, airlines are only restaring domestic flights in Colombia today at 12% capacity.

Will other LatAm governments follow through with state aid to their respective carriers?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Avianca gets US$370M state-backed loan; controversy

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:19 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
Will other LatAm governments follow through with state aid to their respective carriers?


Are you suggesting that what Colombia has done for Avianca is relevant to the decision processes for other LatAm governments? If so, why?
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: Avianca gets US$370M state-backed loan; controversy

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Will other LatAm governments follow through with state aid to their respective carriers?


Are you suggesting that what Colombia has done for Avianca is relevant to the decision processes for other LatAm governments? If so, why?


Are you suggesting other Latin governments should ignore what Colombia did and make decisions in a complete vacuum?
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20032
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Avianca gets US$370M state-backed loan; controversy

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:21 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
Avianca, operating under Ch. 11, has received a loan for up to COP$1.4 billion (approx. USD 370 million) in financing from the Colombian government, the first major career in Latin America to receive such aid. The loan has been guaranteed by AV with assets including its participation in the LifeMiles program and Avianca Cargo (which is a separate airline). It is approximately 20% of the total amount of DIP Financing that the airline is looking to secure under Ch 11.

The Government has argued it is vowing to secure vital connections and transportation infrastructure in a country with defficient alternative modes of transportation, Avianca's hub operation in Bogotá which is a valuable asset, the fact that the company accounts for 1.4% of the national GDP and that in generates up to 500.000 direct and indirect jobs. However, large contorversies have come up in the country, with academics and politicians citing protectionist measures favorable the dominant carrier, the fact that the holding company is based in Panama to elude paying income tax in Colombia and the fact that the Colombian government has been very austere with coronavirus aid measures regarding small and mid-sized companies. More political, controversy has risen given that Avianca's chief of public relations is none other thath the predsident's sister, Maria Paula Duque.

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/airlines-lessors/avianca-lands-colombian-financing-part-restructuring

Although I mostly agree with one of the criticisms (the fact that other economic measures have been austere), truth is the Government is taking the right action in securing AV's future. If BOG lost its main carrier it would take more than a decade to rebuild the hub, that is if an airline was interested, much to Colombia's chagrin and the advantage of competing PTY. Other countries have poured tens of billions into their respective carriers, so $370 million doesn't make a huge sum when speaking macroeconomically, specially when it's a loan. Also, speaking of supposed protectionism, the government has also offered loans to the other carriers operating in the market, which haven't been taken up yet.

It's also important to point out that Latin America had the harshest lockdown and travel restriction measures in the world, having some of the longest quarantines in countries like Colombia, Peru and Chile. For example, airlines are only restaring domestic flights in Colombia today at 12% capacity.

Will other LatAm governments follow through with state aid to their respective carriers?

Avianca Colombia might just survive due to this funding.

Other Avianca airlines have it tougher. I doubt those branches of Avianca won't have to be restarted as effectively new airlines.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca gets US$370M state-backed loan; controversy

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Avianca, operating under Ch. 11, has received a loan for up to COP$1.4 billion (approx. USD 370 million) in financing from the Colombian government, the first major career in Latin America to receive such aid. The loan has been guaranteed by AV with assets including its participation in the LifeMiles program and Avianca Cargo (which is a separate airline). It is approximately 20% of the total amount of DIP Financing that the airline is looking to secure under Ch 11.

The Government has argued it is vowing to secure vital connections and transportation infrastructure in a country with defficient alternative modes of transportation, Avianca's hub operation in Bogotá which is a valuable asset, the fact that the company accounts for 1.4% of the national GDP and that in generates up to 500.000 direct and indirect jobs. However, large contorversies have come up in the country, with academics and politicians citing protectionist measures favorable the dominant carrier, the fact that the holding company is based in Panama to elude paying income tax in Colombia and the fact that the Colombian government has been very austere with coronavirus aid measures regarding small and mid-sized companies. More political, controversy has risen given that Avianca's chief of public relations is none other thath the predsident's sister, Maria Paula Duque.

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/airlines-lessors/avianca-lands-colombian-financing-part-restructuring

Although I mostly agree with one of the criticisms (the fact that other economic measures have been austere), truth is the Government is taking the right action in securing AV's future. If BOG lost its main carrier it would take more than a decade to rebuild the hub, that is if an airline was interested, much to Colombia's chagrin and the advantage of competing PTY. Other countries have poured tens of billions into their respective carriers, so $370 million doesn't make a huge sum when speaking macroeconomically, specially when it's a loan. Also, speaking of supposed protectionism, the government has also offered loans to the other carriers operating in the market, which haven't been taken up yet.

It's also important to point out that Latin America had the harshest lockdown and travel restriction measures in the world, having some of the longest quarantines in countries like Colombia, Peru and Chile. For example, airlines are only restaring domestic flights in Colombia today at 12% capacity.

Will other LatAm governments follow through with state aid to their respective carriers?

Avianca Colombia might just survive due to this funding.

Other Avianca airlines have it tougher. I doubt those branches of Avianca won't have to be restarted as effectively new airlines.

Lightsaber


Just to be clear - the USD$370M debt package is for Avianca Holdings, which also counts Avianca El Salvador and Avianca Ecuador, as well as Avianca Cargo. Don't know if the colombian government put any restrictions on using the money for the other subsidiaries, but who knows. Avianca Ecuadro restartes operations almost two months ago already too.

MIflyer12 wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Will other LatAm governments follow through with state aid to their respective carriers?


Are you suggesting that what Colombia has done for Avianca is relevant to the decision processes for other LatAm governments? If so, why?


I think it is very relevant. Avianca is a major competitor in the North-South passenger flows of the continent, as well as to Europe from its BOG hub. It might be against the national interest of governemnts such as Panama, Peru, Mexico or Chile not to grant any sort of aid to their local airlines if that will diminish their ability to compete against AV. Plus the other airlines will have an excuse to cry about not getting any aid, citing the above reasons and thus generating pressure.

Also FYI to moderators, I don't know which one of you did this but I believed it deserved it's own thread because of the political ramifications that giving state-aid to AV has for the entire LatAm region, the discussion is much more about that than about the Ch 11 process. I can't believe I see entire threads with 60-80 posts about how Allegiant Air launches some obscure route from Knoxville or AA's new napkin design but this deserves to be merged into another thread. Maybe ask at least?
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:04 am

For those that speak Spanish, here is a good analysis on the loan to Avianca.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPMFaMwv_Ac

Avianca is technically bankrupt (insolvent). As of June 30, the airline already had a negative asset value of $355 USD. Three months later and with its operation almost entirely at a standstill that sum is even greater. The $370 USD loan is essentially a blood transfusion as the airline has yet to secure DIP financing.

The government's loan will likely not be paid back by Avianca in 18 months as required by the terms of loan agreement. The analyst suggest the government should have bought a $370 USD stake into the company instead, essentially nationalizing Avianca Holdings. It would have a better chance of recouping its investment.

The analyst suggest that the government had to rightfully step in because the country's economy has more to lose if Avianca closes. Avianca is an important economic detonator for Colombia.

However, this is unpopular as Colombia's president is the brother of one of Avianca's highest executives and the government has failed to provide loans to small companies including other local airlines that have requested help from the government. The Colombian government's justification in losing connectivity and the way its has gone about structuring the loan is highly questionable and may have consequences.

Who ever thought Avianca's 100th year anniversary would be like this. I do applaud the action of the government in these extraordinary times.
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:56 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JAHF4En8_I

Things are looking worrisome. Avianca may not see the government loan.

The airline's total worth by stock value price is $52 million USD. Five times less than the $370 million loan. The government could have nationalized the airline and taken equity in order to part the reorganization plan for the company.

No real criteria was given by the government as to why it gave a loan only to Avianca and not other small companies, including other airlines. Only justification was that Avianca is the largest airline and has 45.5% market share. No technical studies were made as to the financial viability of the loan.

The funds from the loan are coming for what should be funds destined for essential healthcare spending (e.g., COVID supplies for the most vulnerable) taken from pension funds and cannot be used at the president's discretion for a particular private entity. One must remember that Avianca is no longer a company based in Colombia, rather Avianca Holdings is incorporated in Panama. It's headquarters was moved there in order to avoid Colombian corporate taxes.

For those reasons, the opposition may veto the loan. The opposition is already in process of auditing the president's requests as it deems this loan to be filled with favoritism due to family connections.

Let's see what the next days have in store.
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:12 pm

BOGOTA (Reuters) - A Colombian court has ordered government loans worth $370 million made to Avianca Holdings under U.S. Chapter 11 bankruptcy laws be temporarily withheld, until the airline guarantees it will be able to repay the money.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-avia ... SKBN2630SF

There goes Jay's schadenfreude about Delta's LATAM difficulties.
 
guillelds
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:20 am

More news from the Avianca soup opera

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:17 pm

As my title explains, there are more news, but not good at all coming from the Avianca soup opera. I use this term because this airline's current history has been full of happiness, sadness and hidden intrigues like the following one I will be posting regarding the huge amount of money Avianca 's managers have earned during this times, mainly during the pandemic.
The link is in Spanish https://www.dinero.com/inversionistas/a ... res/300868
 
bfitzflyer
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:02 am

Re: More news from the Avianca soup opera

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:42 pm

Not trying to be grammar police as I know how I am if not my first language, but should be soap opera, not soup opera.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: More news from the Avianca soup opera

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:05 pm

Maybe soap opera fits as hidden stuff bubbles to the top and sinks back down again out of sight.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6993
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: More news from the Avianca soup opera

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:24 pm

Exeiowa wrote:
Maybe soap opera fits as hidden stuff bubbles to the top and sinks back down again out of sight.


"Soap opera" is a historical term dating back decades to when the genre of serialized dramas in the U.S. was sponsored by soap manufacturers; their target audience was largely female homemakers who would be making the decision about which cleaning products would be purchased and used for the household.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5758
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: More news from the Avianca soup opera

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:39 pm

Given that this is in Colombia, I think you could have use the term "telenovela". It is widely recognised in the US as well as in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telenovela
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10254
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: More news from the Avianca soup opera

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:46 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
Not trying to be grammar police as I know how I am if not my first language, but should be soap opera, not soup opera.

No soup for you!!!!
 
maverick4002
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: More news from the Avianca soup opera

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:01 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
Not trying to be grammar police as I know how I am if not my first language, but should be soap opera, not soup opera.


But you made the comment anyway..
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24621
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:25 pm

Avianca says it has received DIP financing commitments totaling $2.0Bil from institutional investors and creditors and will seek approval of the BK court at a hearing scheduled for Oct 5.

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/avi ... -millones/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca has filed for Chapter 11

Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:45 am

This is at least a bit of good news, in the midst of a new corporate greed scandal led by the airline's top executives, including CEO van der Werff and COO Neuhauser as well as other colombian executives, which came to light a coule of days ago. They gave themselves bonuses of around $10M two days before entering CH 11, while thousands of staff are on furlough, and while they were asking for a government loan.

Although not illegal and apparently market practice as they're related to the results of last year's debt refinancing, ethically, I don't understand how executives can give themselves bonuses when they're running a company in such distress. Disgusting.

https://www.financecolombia.com/while-asking-for-government-bailout-furloughing-thousands-of-employees-bankrupt-avianca-paid-7-insiders-bonuses-of-over-10-3-million-usd/

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