Looks like Ryanair and their subsidiary companies will be going back to all 737s and returning/cancelling all current A320 leases and orders.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22O1IZ

That's unfortunate, I was expecting more companies to diversify away from Boeing since the MAX fiasco.

I have a feeling that this is more to do with riding out COVID-19 than Airbus vs Boeing vs other.

Smart move to reduce costs all around. One training format, one fleet to maintain and plenty of new 737s coming in. The new 737s can meet current demands and replace or allow older 737NGs to be repurposed to subsidiaries. As the Max aircraft roll in, you can get down to a one fleet answer with less costs

My opinion is Ryanair is shrinking and cutting costs where they can (cutting leases).

I would expect the need for the MAX is now in the future.

My guess is MOL sees a multi year recovery and Boeing can meet his delivery dates.

To be blunt, every aircraft will sell for less going forward. MOL knowns this and must be closing in on steep discounts from Boeing due to MAX delays.

Lightsaber

One beautiful quote from the article

“Until they need an order from the Ryanair Group, frankly we are wasting our time talking to Airbus,” he added, without elaborating.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ryanair-hldgs-airb-idUSKBN22O1IZ

Translated into: Airbus didn't want to give the discounts we [Ryanair] want. Seems to me that Airbus doesn't want to sell its aircrft at all cost.

Meanwhile it seems that MOL has gone soft on Boeing by extending his deadline from May 19th till RTS of the MAX.... Can you take MOL seriously?

mxaxai wrote:

Is Ryanair going to pay for the pilots' conversion?

What airlines in developed countries don't pay for pilot conversions? Seriously.

Certainly makes sense during this time to consolidate fleet types. With demand down, their current fleet can be spread to cover more operations.

No different than DL parking MDs, AA the 190s/A330s, etc.

LJ wrote:

One beautiful quote from the article

“Until they need an order from the Ryanair Group, frankly we are wasting our time talking to Airbus,” he added, without elaborating.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ryanair-hldgs-airb-idUSKBN22O1IZ

Translated into: Airbus didn't want to give the discounts we [Ryanair] want. Seems to me that Airbus doesn't want to sell its aircrft at all cost.

Meanwhile it seems that MOL has gone soft on Boeing by extending his deadline from May 19th till RTS of the MAX.... Can you take MOL seriously?

Who runs a better airline P+L than MOL? Makes sense for both Airbus and Ryanair.

jwjsamster wrote:

I have a feeling that this is more to do with riding out COVID-19 than Airbus vs Boeing vs other.

Fleet decisions are always about money, be it some vast algorithm of availability (opportunity cost), purchase price, fuel burn, forecasted maintenance costs, pilot training, pilot commonality...

mxaxai wrote:

Is Ryanair going to pay for the pilots' conversion? Or would it be easier to let the Airbus pilots go and look for 737 pilots from a soon-defunct carrier?

Of course not. On paper the pilots aren't even employed by Ryanair. In this economic climate, they will already be busy dusting off their pay-2-fly program anyway.

MIflyer12 wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

Is Ryanair going to pay for the pilots' conversion?

What airlines in developed countries don't pay for pilot conversions? Seriously.

Ryanair. Seriously.

(But more than one pilot has told me that Ireland isn't a developed country either)

mxaxai wrote:

Is Ryanair going to pay for the pilots' conversion? Or would it be easier to let the Airbus pilots go and look for 737 pilots from a soon-defunct carrier?

The Lauda union was mentioned as refusing to engage regarding pay cuts. O'Leary stated if that didn't change the Vienna base would close and Ryanair 737s would fly the route. So, I guess take a pay cut and plan on getting a 737 type rating OR lose your job and look for someone else needing an A320 type rating.

Not too many companies looking for guys with either 737 or A320 type ratings right now!!! Maybe better to take the cut and new type rating.

This means Ryanair has offers in the bag from Boeing for airframe at prices they are happy with. They may still be in negotiation but they've got 737s at the right price.

There is no way they would talk about switching to 737 in Lauda until this was done.

With the downturn, MOL realizes he has too many planes already, or online coming, needs to cut something.... and not being one to miss an opportunity, is taking the time to swipe at Airbus!

As others have said, reducing fleet size and getting rid of the smaller fleet type is the obvious choice here, and at other airlines. MOL is just doing his usual...

So no need for Lauda anymore then?

And it is not like it is free to terminate those leases?

737 can do everything the want it to do for the next 15 to 20 years... City pairs, economic migrant transport, bucket and spade routes from Northern Europe, even hop over to East Coast America from British Isles(I can only see them doing this to damage the revenue streams of their competitors rather than for big profit).
The last plane I was on was an 18 year old Ryanair 737. They last well.

leghorn wrote:

737 can do everything the want it to do for the next 15 to 20 years... City pairs, economic migrant transport, bucket and spade routes from Northern Europe, even hop over to East Coast America from British Isles(I can only see them doing this to damage the revenue streams of their competitors rather than for big profit).
The last plane I was on was an 18 year old Ryanair 737. They last well.

People often don't give the 737NG enough credit. The -800 has 4,000lbs more useful load and a larger internal fuel capacity than the A320. It's cargo hold is the same size (in cubic meters). It has a lighter empty weight than an A320, flies on average 2-3,000ft higher and a newer wing. It really does print money.

According to Lauda's CEO David O’Brien the airline is now very likely to be closed down for good. Here is what had been reported on this matter eleven days ago:

Ryanair will shut down the main Vienna base of its Austrian airline Lauda and bring in Ryanair jets instead unless staff there agree to a pay cut and a new labour agreement, Chief Executive Michael O'Leary said on Friday.[...]

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/ryana ... 13052.html

Ryanair has excess capacity for the immediate future so it makes sense to redistribute to Lauda

LJ wrote:

One beautiful quote from the article

“Until they need an order from the Ryanair Group, frankly we are wasting our time talking to Airbus,” he added, without elaborating.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ryanair-hldgs-airb-idUSKBN22O1IZ

Translated into: Airbus didn't want to give the discounts we [Ryanair] want. Seems to me that Airbus doesn't want to sell its aircrft at all cost.

Meanwhile it seems that MOL has gone soft on Boeing by extending his deadline from May 19th till RTS of the MAX.... Can you take MOL seriously?

No one can take MOL seriously. The guy is hot headed and throws tantrums left and right; this is now biting him seriously in the behind, which makes him throw even more tantrums.

Interesting it seems Lauda could be the first one to leave VIE bloodbath.

I fear this is the end of Lauda which is a shame as I found their livery to be really nice. I guess Ryanair will step in and take over. What will be interesting to follow is how many planes they end up basing in Vienna and how many routes will be operated from other bases. I suppose W pattern flights with cheaper crew could become more common in the future.

There is a lot of 'mights' and 'coulds' and 'possiblys' in the article, maybe it is still just negotiating tactics

WayexTDI wrote:

LJ wrote:

One beautiful quote from the article

“Until they need an order from the Ryanair Group, frankly we are wasting our time talking to Airbus,” he added, without elaborating.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ryanair-hldgs-airb-idUSKBN22O1IZ

Translated into: Airbus didn't want to give the discounts we [Ryanair] want. Seems to me that Airbus doesn't want to sell its aircrft at all cost.

Meanwhile it seems that MOL has gone soft on Boeing by extending his deadline from May 19th till RTS of the MAX.... Can you take MOL seriously?

No one can take MOL seriously. The guy is hot headed and throws tantrums left and right; this is now biting him seriously in the behind, which makes him throw even more tantrums.

Except it worked. He negotiated a deal with Boring for the MAXs. Obviously future purchases will be further discounted.

MOL's negotiating style always forces the other side to call his bluff and discover if he bluffed or not. Considering FR's financial position, he must be taken seriously. His tantrums turned a small airline into a powerhouse.

If MoL amended the Boeing deal for a large purchase of MAX, he can swagger more than ever for 3 to 5 years.

All airlines will have to downsize. When you have too many aircraft and employees, brutal calls get made.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

He negotiated a deal with Boring for the MAXs.

LOL!! Sorry, hard to resist commenting that

BTT: I think it would be sad to see Lauda as a name disappear, but it seems likely

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk

I like this statement.

"O’Leary said the MAX grounding could delay Ryanair’s plan to fly 200 million passengers by 2020 “by a year or two.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22O1IZ

Where everyone else is talking about a 3-5 year recovery (using 2019 traffic levels), MOL is cutting their best predictions in half.

Suggests he sees Covid-19 as an opportunity.

Hopefully, lower wages for workers who are already low paid is not a consequence of this pandemic.

VSMUT wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

Is Ryanair going to pay for the pilots' conversion? Or would it be easier to let the Airbus pilots go and look for 737 pilots from a soon-defunct carrier?

Of course not. On paper the pilots aren't even employed by Ryanair. In this economic climate, they will already be busy dusting off their pay-2-fly program anyway.

MIflyer12 wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

Is Ryanair going to pay for the pilots' conversion?

What airlines in developed countries don't pay for pilot conversions? Seriously.

Ryanair. Seriously.

(But more than one pilot has told me that Ireland isn't a developed country either)

For Ryanair to make the Pilots pay for their OWN training? Either the Pilots are Desperate? OR? Ryanair is paying some REAL long Money!

leghorn wrote:

This means Ryanair has offers in the bag from Boeing for airframe at prices they are happy with. They may still be in negotiation but they've got 737s at the right price.

There is no way they would talk about switching to 737 in Lauda until this was done.

At some point? the Boeing 737 Max troubles will end. However? The Ryanair pilots will then have to again get a type rating as their present Type in the 737 Max?
Might well be worthless.

O'Leary is very rarely wrong.

It's nothing to do with AvB though. There is no need for planes for the next year. If you have leases you can cancel then candle them.

I know the horse has already bolted, but to be clear, the article says Lauda will cancel "nearly all" future leases.

Instead, Ryanair planned to “significantly reduce the scale of the Lauda fleet,” said O’Leary, who is known for his brinkmanship in negotiations.

“We have (Airbus) aircraft that are due to be delivered over the next 12 months and we will cancel almost all of those deliveries,” which are from leasing companies, he said.

So the cancellation of existing Lauda A320 leases is just speculation at this point.

“As long as we can reach an acceptable outcome with Boeing, the Boeing orders we have in place would readily replace - I think Lauda will have a fleet of about 30 Airbus aircraft - we would probably replace those Airbus with Boeing over the next couple of years.”

...with MOL doing his best to fan the flames.

GLANKG wrote:

Interesting it seems Lauda could be the first one to leave VIE bloodbath.

Indeed - who would have thought that six months ago?

leghorn wrote:

There is no way they would talk about switching to 737 in Lauda until this was done.

Why not? Lauda has been adding used A320s. They could be adding used 737NGs easily enough, should there be a need.

VSMUT wrote:

Of course not. On paper the pilots aren't even employed by Ryanair.

Disgusting policy.

LJ wrote:

One beautiful quote from the article

“Until they need an order from the Ryanair Group, frankly we are wasting our time talking to Airbus,” he added, without elaborating.

Good.

CX747 wrote:

Looks like Ryanair and their subsidiary companies will be going back to all 737s and returning/cancelling all current A320 leases and orders.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22O1IZ

I`m trying to imagine the size of the discount given and the compensation by Boeing.

I'm sorry but I don't see the current threats as anything more than a bargaining chip opposite both aircraft suppliers. Yes, we face a down turn but it is now that Ryanair Group will bag a long term arrangement for new planes at a significant haircut, they won't need to start taking deliveries for over a year, by which time they will be in a strong position. They are likely to pick up an ailing airline that could be positioned for growth and need new aircraft within the next year. This moment is a juncture to make significant further inroads into the cost base and ensure that the Group are up to par or better on a cost footing with Wizz.

I don't see them walking away from Airbus though if Lauda goes that's another matter, though it seems clear Lauda have choice but to accept the revised terms. They will know what happened at Buzz at Stansted when Ryanair acquired that airline from KLM.

What aircraft he will fly feels like a rather moot point. Presently FR has a few hundred aircraft sitting doing very little, any leases are best cancelled no matter what plane. Question is also whether Ryanair needs new planes at all?
It is safe to assume that in the coming few years, there will be killer deals to be had on used 737/320, whether leased or bought. Id say thats the most prudent way going forward for them. With fuel being low such deals will be financially compelling, especially for FR that often fly short stretches. I guess that's logical to assume, but we don't know what deals Boeing has offered on the Max and they might have offered a true desp[erate deal and then it makes sense to take delivery of those planes..

However, what interests me most is HOW FR were led to believe that they can shutdown one entity and replace with another in a regulated European legislative environment. That is bound to fail and will end up in court. My prediction, based on previous EU court-cases is that Ryanair will loose. Ryanair tend to back down only after they have been dragged to court and realise that any verdict will hamper them in the future.
Blackmailing and threatening to replace one local group of employees with another brought in from other countries is just the thing nations wont accept in this situation. They would need to close the Vienna base. I wonder how the shareholders feels about that giant waste of money if they do...

I guess they are smart enough to avoid that and are just using the press to threaten consequences since they are banned from using such arguments in negotiations. But thats my guess.

JerseyFlyer wrote:

Ryanair has excess capacity for the immediate future so it makes sense to redistribute to Lauda

leghorn wrote:

This means Ryanair has offers in the bag from Boeing for airframe at prices they are happy with. They may still be in negotiation but they've got 737s at the right price.

There is no way they would talk about switching to 737 in Lauda until this was done.

This isn't about making Lauda a 737 operator, it is about closing Lauda for good. If Ryanair feels a need to stay in the Austrian and German market, they will use their own 737s.

strfyr51 wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

Is Ryanair going to pay for the pilots' conversion? Or would it be easier to let the Airbus pilots go and look for 737 pilots from a soon-defunct carrier?

Of course not. On paper the pilots aren't even employed by Ryanair. In this economic climate, they will already be busy dusting off their pay-2-fly program anyway.

MIflyer12 wrote:

What airlines in developed countries don't pay for pilot conversions? Seriously.

Ryanair. Seriously.

(But more than one pilot has told me that Ireland isn't a developed country either)

For Ryanair to make the Pilots pay for their OWN training? Either the Pilots are Desperate? OR? Ryanair is paying some REAL long Money!

The wages are average, but the pilots have to pay their own training and uniforms, and even have to pay extortionate prices for food and drink onboard the aircraft. I haven't heard of any other airline that doesn't provide their crew with catering. If you are sick? Pole sana, nothing for you if you don't come to work.
The crux of the issue is that Ryanair have been eliminating secondary airlines with fair conditions across Europe, giving pilots few other choices. Working as an expat in Indonesia or India can be fun, but it isn't something you do for your entire career. It also doesn't match well with family life.

BTW, aren't you in aircraft maintenance? Ryanair cheaped out on that too, they contract the cheapest maintenance they can get.

According to this link, Lauda will have around 30 Airbus aircraft and all will be eventually replaced by Boeings. Naturally it all depends on what happens with employee negotiations.

“I think Lauda will have a fleet of about 30 Airbus aircraft - we would probably replace those Airbus with Boeing over the next couple of years,” he said, on condition that Ryanair reach “an acceptable outcome” in talks with Boeing over compensation for delays to deliveries of the 737 MAX.

https://www.reuters.com/article/ryanair ... SS8N2CJ00R

strfyr51 wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

I haven't heard of any other airline that doesn't provide their crew with catering.

You would be surprised of just how many airlines simply don't provide their flight crew with some sort of catering.

Just the usual Ryanair bullying negotiation tactics to [email protected] their employees just a little bit more.

Who is surprised.

The benefit of keeping the MAX's on order is that they won't be delivered until way into the future when all of this COVID stuff is over and instead of having to pay a penalty for deferring delivery they will get paid compensation.

The benefit of keeping the MAX's on order is that they won't be delivered until way into the future when all of this COVID stuff is over and instead of having to pay a penalty for deferring delivery they will get paid compensation.

lightsaber wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

LJ wrote:

One beautiful quote from the article


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ryanair-hldgs-airb-idUSKBN22O1IZ

Translated into: Airbus didn't want to give the discounts we [Ryanair] want. Seems to me that Airbus doesn't want to sell its aircrft at all cost.

Meanwhile it seems that MOL has gone soft on Boeing by extending his deadline from May 19th till RTS of the MAX.... Can you take MOL seriously?

No one can take MOL seriously. The guy is hot headed and throws tantrums left and right; this is now biting him seriously in the behind, which makes him throw even more tantrums.

Except it worked. He negotiated a deal with Boring for the MAXs. Obviously future purchases will be further discounted.

MOL's negotiating style always forces the other side to call his bluff and discover if he bluffed or not. Considering FR's financial position, he must be taken seriously. His tantrums turned a small airline into a powerhouse.

If MoL amended the Boeing deal for a large purchase of MAX, he can swagger more than ever for 3 to 5 years.

All airlines will have to downsize. When you have too many aircraft and employees, brutal calls get made.

Lightsaber

He "raped" Boeing for 737NGs in 2002 as Boeing was desperate to sell planes after 9/11.
He "negotiated" a deal for 737MAXes during the MAX grounding.
Not sure Boeing is the great winner on that.

Some suppliers are working with Ryanair only under pressure from Boeing; if not, they'd refuse seeing how much a PITA Ryanair is.
Ryanair grabs incentives for flights to new airport then pull out before the end of the agreement and refuses to reimburse.

MOL has made many enemies, too many maybe; a lot of business relationships are being reset due to COVID-19 (at least that's what's being said), not sure he'll be the winner going forward.

WayexTDI wrote:

He "raped" Boeing for 737NGs in 2002 as Boeing was desperate to sell planes after 9/11.
He "negotiated" a deal for 737MAXes during the MAX grounding.
Not sure Boeing is the great winner on that.

Selling aircraft at or below cost is not a win for anyone but Ryanair. At most it's a costly way to keep the production line alive.

WayexTDI wrote:

He "negotiated" a deal for 737MAXes during the MAX grounding.

There is no deal yet on either additional MAXes or compensation. MOL postponed his own deadline from 18-19 May till RTS of the MAX

One step closer:
Lauda, an Airbus fleet, closing in Vienna.
https://wien.orf.at/stories/3049817/

Improving efficiency, nice! Ryanair will be even stronger once the crisis ends.

VSMUT wrote:

Selling aircraft at or below cost is not a win for anyone but Ryanair. At most it's a costly way to keep the production line alive.

+1
Exactly why Airbus wont entertain FR RFP's with any meaningful discounts anymore after they were being used last time round.

VSMUT wrote:

(But more than one pilot has told me that Ireland isn't a developed country either)

What makes them/you say that?