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Nicknuzzii
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Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:29 am

Prior to the pandemic it was very clear UA ran EWR. UA controlled over 70% of the takeoff “slots” and over 60% of the pax. Why did no airline attempt to compete?

We all know EWR is very expensive to operate from but it is also true the avg. domestic fare catches about $25 more than a flight to JFK. This along with the typically slightly higher LF should easily offset the costs.

EWR serves(d) the most domestic pax in NYC but yet received the least competition? If airlines saw the economics, which they did, they would have clearly added flights. What was the underlying problem?
 
Fuling
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:55 am

From a marketing stance, "New York JFK" sounds a lot more glamorous and appealing to passengers. Kind of like London. When given the option with similar fares and the same airline, most will take LHR over LGW. On top of that, people that don't travel often usually select the airport they're familiar with/know about/heard of.
 
PA815
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:58 am

Fuling wrote:
From a marketing stance, "New York JFK" sounds a lot more glamorous and appealing to passengers.
By that reasoning, EWR would have a lower average fare. Does that mean the name of EWR vs. JFK isn’t that consequential or is there something else that more than makes up for the lack of “JFK” in the name?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:02 am

Fuling wrote:
From a marketing stance, "New York JFK" sounds a lot more glamorous and appealing to passengers. Kind of like London. When given the option with similar fares and the same airline, most will take LHR over LGW. On top of that, people that don't travel often usually select the airport they're familiar with/know about/heard of.


That is true for Europeans and other foreigners but as noted above EWR serves more domestic pax than LGA or JFK.
 
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N62NA
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:03 am

They don't have a monopoly, however they do have the largest amount of flights and passengers at EWR.

Here's how it got that way: PeoplExpress -> Continental -> United

Plus the fact that AA / DL / TW / NW / EA were much more JFK and LGA focused and never considered building up a large presence at EWR.
 
santi319
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:12 am

Because EWR was marginalized by everyone for a long time in favor of JFK and LGA, but now that EWR was “discovered” it became a focus of attention for many carriers and pax alike.

United just happened to be there at the right place and in the right time. And dare I say is a sweet spot to be sitting on considering how everything has been unfolding the past decades with the NYC metro area airports.
 
Fuling
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:12 am

PA815 wrote:
Fuling wrote:
From a marketing stance, "New York JFK" sounds a lot more glamorous and appealing to passengers.
By that reasoning, EWR would have a lower average fare. Does that mean the name of EWR vs. JFK isn’t that consequential or is there something else that more than makes up for the lack of “JFK” in the name?


A lot more airlines prefer to fly into JFK, meaning there is more demand/competition. Which in turn will bring down fares.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Fuling wrote:
From a marketing stance, "New York JFK" sounds a lot more glamorous and appealing to passengers. Kind of like London. When given the option with similar fares and the same airline, most will take LHR over LGW. On top of that, people that don't travel often usually select the airport they're familiar with/know about/heard of.


That is true for Europeans and other foreigners but as noted above EWR serves more domestic pax than LGA or JFK.


Yea EWR has more domestic passengers, but there is a truck tonne of international tourists/business travellers going into the New York area - so without them being familiar with EWR, and having cheaper or more options through JFK, that’s more likely what they’ll choose.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:14 am

UA also has the advantage of having the hub operation being concentrated within one airport rather than two (DL and AA are split between LGA and JFK, which results in a multi-hour layover to transfer between airports). This allows for better connection flow that the other airlines could not possibly get without UA giving up a sizable amount of their capacity at EWR.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:29 am

Fuling wrote:
PA815 wrote:
Fuling wrote:
From a marketing stance, "New York JFK" sounds a lot more glamorous and appealing to passengers.
By that reasoning, EWR would have a lower average fare. Does that mean the name of EWR vs. JFK isn’t that consequential or is there something else that more than makes up for the lack of “JFK” in the name?


A lot more airlines prefer to fly into JFK, meaning there is more demand/competition. Which in turn will bring down fares.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Fuling wrote:
From a marketing stance, "New York JFK" sounds a lot more glamorous and appealing to passengers. Kind of like London. When given the option with similar fares and the same airline, most will take LHR over LGW. On top of that, people that don't travel often usually select the airport they're familiar with/know about/heard of.


That is true for Europeans and other foreigners but as noted above EWR serves more domestic pax than LGA or JFK.


Yea EWR has more domestic passengers, but there is a truck tonne of international tourists/business travellers going into the New York area - so without them being familiar with EWR, and having cheaper or more options through JFK, that’s more likely what they’ll choose.


For this thread I’m mostly talking about domestic flights. For example, AA only served 5/9 hubs from EWR.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:49 am

Much of EWR was all but abandoned in favor of the more glitzy JFK before PeoplExpress came along. They proved that yes, there was a big market in New Jersey, and could even pull from Manhattan at the right fares.
Continental ended up with the PE carcass, and survived the brutal Newark Wars that followed for two decades. The UA merger gave them them critical mass to parlay that into a major trans-Atlantic hub.

All of that caused much of the domestic fare sensitive demand to shift to EWR, creating the JFK ghost town of the late 90’s that JetBlue was able to exploit.
 
rrbsztk
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:00 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Fuling wrote:
PA815 wrote:
By that reasoning, EWR would have a lower average fare. Does that mean the name of EWR vs. JFK isn’t that consequential or is there something else that more than makes up for the lack of “JFK” in the name?


A lot more airlines prefer to fly into JFK, meaning there is more demand/competition. Which in turn will bring down fares.

Nicknuzzii wrote:

That is true for Europeans and other foreigners but as noted above EWR serves more domestic pax than LGA or JFK.


Yea EWR has more domestic passengers, but there is a truck tonne of international tourists/business travellers going into the New York area - so without them being familiar with EWR, and having cheaper or more options through JFK, that’s more likely what they’ll choose.


For this thread I’m mostly talking about domestic flights. For example, AA only served 5/9 hubs from EWR.


This might not match your info, I'm going off Wikipedia. Based on there they are missing Los Angeles, Philadelphia, NYC (lga/jfk) and Washington. Two of those four are within 100 miles of EWR, so more like they serve 5/7 hubs.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:16 am

N62NA wrote:
They don't have a monopoly, however they do have the largest amount of flights and passengers at EWR.

Here's how it got that way: PeoplExpress -> Continental -> United

Plus the fact that AA / DL / TW / NW / EA were much more JFK and LGA focused and never considered building up a large presence at EWR.


EWR was such a backwater in the 1970's that EA was the largest carrier there while it was their THIRD priority among NY area airports.
TW had a few "leftover" flights pre-deregulation from EWR as did UA. I could be wrong but AA who was a major player competing with EA & TW at JFK and LGA only had a handful of flights out of EWR.

Prior to People's Express it was just a leftover airport for the most part.
 
Max Q
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:22 am

That’s People Express
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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Polot
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 10:07 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
The UA merger gave them them critical mass to parlay that into a major trans-Atlantic hub.

EWR was a major trans-Atlantic hub for CO long before the UA merger.

In fact by the time of the merger UA’s presence at EWR was so meager that UA/CO gave all of UA’s gates/slots (? Can’t remember if EWR was slot controlled at that time) to WN to help win merger approval.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 10:45 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Prior to the pandemic it was very clear UA ran EWR. UA controlled over 70% of the takeoff “slots” and over 60% of the pax. Why did no airline attempt to compete?


That implies carriers at LGA and EWR don't compete for EWR passengers. You really want that to be your starting position?
 
pezzy669
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 11:17 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Prior to the pandemic it was very clear UA ran EWR. UA controlled over 70% of the takeoff “slots” and over 60% of the pax. Why did no airline attempt to compete?


That implies carriers at LGA and EWR don't compete for EWR passengers. You really want that to be your starting position?


Right!

I think even in "normal" times ~4-5 months ago I think DL was nipping at the heels of UA as far as market share even with their sub-optimal split LGA/JFK hub operation. With that said about the split hubs I would be curious about the yields between UA in its consolidated hub (with presumably higher number of connecting) and AA and DL with their split hubs (with presumably higher O&D).
 
max999
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 1:54 pm

pezzy669 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Prior to the pandemic it was very clear UA ran EWR. UA controlled over 70% of the takeoff “slots” and over 60% of the pax. Why did no airline attempt to compete?


That implies carriers at LGA and EWR don't compete for EWR passengers. You really want that to be your starting position?


Right!

I think even in "normal" times ~4-5 months ago I think DL was nipping at the heels of UA as far as market share even with their sub-optimal split LGA/JFK hub operation. With that said about the split hubs I would be curious about the yields between UA in its consolidated hub (with presumably higher number of connecting) and AA and DL with their split hubs (with presumably higher O&D).


I think it suits UA not to compete, they would rather just stick to their EWR fortress hub. Case in point: AA and DL have a presence in all three NYC area airports JFK, LGA, and EWR. While UA sticks out like a sore thumb because they have zero presence in JFK and they don't want to compete there.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
drdisque
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:15 pm

Add in the fact that WN and before them FL tried EWR and flat out couldn't make it work and left. AA has at many times dropped various hub routes to regional from EWR. Same with DL.

For point-to-point domestic, EWR is sort of a dud unless you are UA/CO.
Last edited by drdisque on Wed May 13, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:17 pm

drdisque wrote:
Add in the fact that WN and later FL tried EWR and flat out couldn't make it work and left. AA has at many times dropped various hub routes to regional from EWR. Same with DL.

For point-to-point domestic, EWR is sort of a dud unless you are UA/CO.

I think that is a reflection more on the strength of the UA fortress hub than EWR.
 
tphuang
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:15 pm

drdisque wrote:
Add in the fact that WN and before them FL tried EWR and flat out couldn't make it work and left. AA has at many times dropped various hub routes to regional from EWR. Same with DL.

For point-to-point domestic, EWR is sort of a dud unless you are UA/CO.


B6 was doing quite well in the few EWR routes they did serve. The yields on most of the routes were about the same as JFK. Too bad they never had access to enough gates or available "time slots" to build up a larger operation until now....
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:18 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
N62NA wrote:
They don't have a monopoly, however they do have the largest amount of flights and passengers at EWR.

Here's how it got that way: PeoplExpress -> Continental -> United

Plus the fact that AA / DL / TW / NW / EA were much more JFK and LGA focused and never considered building up a large presence at EWR.


EWR was such a backwater in the 1970's that EA was the largest carrier there while it was their THIRD priority among NY area airports.
TW had a few "leftover" flights pre-deregulation from EWR as did UA. I could be wrong but AA who was a major player competing with EA & TW at JFK and LGA only had a handful of flights out of EWR.

Prior to People's Express it was just a leftover airport for the most part.


What’s kinda interesting is back in the 80s and early 90s, UA actually had a fairly decent size operation at EWR. I believe it was one of their largest non-hub stations. As others mentioned, in the early 2000s, they pulled back to a very small operation.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:47 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
N62NA wrote:
They don't have a monopoly, however they do have the largest amount of flights and passengers at EWR.

Here's how it got that way: PeoplExpress -> Continental -> United

Plus the fact that AA / DL / TW / NW / EA were much more JFK and LGA focused and never considered building up a large presence at EWR.


EWR was such a backwater in the 1970's that EA was the largest carrier there while it was their THIRD priority among NY area airports.
TW had a few "leftover" flights pre-deregulation from EWR as did UA. I could be wrong but AA who was a major player competing with EA & TW at JFK and LGA only had a handful of flights out of EWR.

Prior to People's Express it was just a leftover airport for the most part.


What’s kinda interesting is back in the 80s and early 90s, UA actually had a fairly decent size operation at EWR. I believe it was one of their largest non-hub stations. As others mentioned, in the early 2000s, they pulled back to a very small operation.


The origins of EWR as a hub airport indeed date back to PeoplExpress in 1981 and its subsequent acquisition by Texas Air Corporation, which merged it into Continental Airlines in 1986-7. In 1988, Continental and the PANYNJ completed what is now Terminal C (less the C3 concourse which was added in the early 2000s). Terminal C and Continental's growth there were actually a competitive advantage for a time, putting all ops under a single roof (some flights to ATL, ORD, DFW on CO operated from Terminal A), and Continental's rebirth made it a decent airport with a better infrastructure for a time over LGA/JFK. The JFK Terminal redevelopment began in the late 1990s and until then, it was a miserable experience. EWR became CO's most profitable hub and UA saw the value in it when the two merged in 2010. UA indeed had a significant presence at EWR for a long time, and in the 1990s it flew to NRT, LHR, and had flights to MIA in addition to its hubs. One DEN rotation was operated with a 772, which flew DEN-EWR-LHR and was one of four NYC Area to LHR flights UA had at the time. The other 3 operated from JFK (1 daylight and 2 evening flights, which eventually settled on the 763 before being pared back to a single flight on a 772 until 2006, when UA sold the JFK-LHR route to DL). UA also had a significant cargo presence at EWR.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:26 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
N62NA wrote:
They don't have a monopoly, however they do have the largest amount of flights and passengers at EWR.

Here's how it got that way: PeoplExpress -> Continental -> United

Plus the fact that AA / DL / TW / NW / EA were much more JFK and LGA focused and never considered building up a large presence at EWR.


EWR was such a backwater in the 1970's that EA was the largest carrier there while it was their THIRD priority among NY area airports.
TW had a few "leftover" flights pre-deregulation from EWR as did UA. I could be wrong but AA who was a major player competing with EA & TW at JFK and LGA only had a handful of flights out of EWR.

Prior to People's Express it was just a leftover airport for the most part.


What’s kinda interesting is back in the 80s and early 90s, UA actually had a fairly decent size operation at EWR. I believe it was one of their largest non-hub stations. As others mentioned, in the early 2000s, they pulled back to a very small operation.


Yeah Tokyo, London and maybe Paris in the 1990's early 2000's from EWR. Also all the hubs, ORD/DEN/SFO/LAX/MIA. Also MCO at one point was flown but I think that ended around 1994 or 1995 if not earlier.
 
tphuang
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:31 pm

Also keep in mind that Jersey has changed a lot in the recent years. Hobokken and now Jersey City, weehawken and Bergen country are all quite wealthy areas now. And EWR is more convenient for these areas than LGA/JFK. And the change is only picking up.

I see EWR pulling a greater share of corporate traffic going forward from LGA.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:32 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

EWR was such a backwater in the 1970's that EA was the largest carrier there while it was their THIRD priority among NY area airports.
TW had a few "leftover" flights pre-deregulation from EWR as did UA. I could be wrong but AA who was a major player competing with EA & TW at JFK and LGA only had a handful of flights out of EWR.

Prior to People's Express it was just a leftover airport for the most part.


What’s kinda interesting is back in the 80s and early 90s, UA actually had a fairly decent size operation at EWR. I believe it was one of their largest non-hub stations. As others mentioned, in the early 2000s, they pulled back to a very small operation.


The origins of EWR as a hub airport indeed date back to PeoplExpress in 1981 and its subsequent acquisition by Texas Air Corporation, which merged it into Continental Airlines in 1986-7. In 1988, Continental and the PANYNJ completed what is now Terminal C (less the C3 concourse which was added in the early 2000s). Terminal C and Continental's growth there were actually a competitive advantage for a time, putting all ops under a single roof (some flights to ATL, ORD, DFW on CO operated from Terminal A), and Continental's rebirth made it a decent airport with a better infrastructure for a time over LGA/JFK. The JFK Terminal redevelopment began in the late 1990s and until then, it was a miserable experience. EWR became CO's most profitable hub and UA saw the value in it when the two merged in 2010. UA indeed had a significant presence at EWR for a long time, and in the 1990s it flew to NRT, LHR, and had flights to MIA in addition to its hubs. One DEN rotation was operated with a 772, which flew DEN-EWR-LHR and was one of four NYC Area to LHR flights UA had at the time. The other 3 operated from JFK (1 daylight and 2 evening flights, which eventually settled on the 763 before being pared back to a single flight on a 772 until 2006, when UA sold the JFK-LHR route to DL). UA also had a significant cargo presence at EWR.


Excellent post and yes you are right and that triggered my memory.

Part of the attraction of jetBlue launching was that they were flying domestic routes that JFK hardly had and the airport was in the 1990's miserable. In fact before DL acquired PA's European division I think JFK was down to SLC, FLL and MCO. LAX was flown from EWR IIRC until 1991. I mentioned earlier that EA, AA and TW all had decent JFK domestic presence in the 1970's but AA eventually wound down most domestic NYC flying and EA gradually shifted most of the flights to LGA as slots were acquired and shut JFK completely in 1989. TWA never ever reached anything really beyond single daily flights at its JFK "hub" until AA absorbed it. PA inherited NA's extensive JFK ops and squandered it. So by the mid 1990's JFK domestic flying outside flights timed to connect to Europe was hardly present.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:41 pm

Yes viability of HUB locations are becoming extremely important outside of Internet Echo Chambers going forward.

Hub discussions like these in various geographic regions of the US is a reasonable discussion.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
slider
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:42 pm

UA also paid a boatload for additional slots that they DID NOT FLY in order to better manage congestion and delays.

The inherent environment of the airspace there makes it difficult for anyone to manage, but UA does a good job of it and, going back to CO days, their ATC interface was pretty robust. It's a tough and shitty place to operate. Making accusations of a monopoly are just ridiculous.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:50 pm

N62NA wrote:
They don't have a monopoly, however they do have the largest amount of flights and passengers at EWR.

Here's how it got that way: PeoplExpress -> Continental -> United

Plus the fact that AA / DL / TW / NW / EA were much more JFK and LGA focused and never considered building up a large presence at EWR.


Also, when PeoplExpress built up its operations at EWR, EWR was an also-ran airport. It's very possible that EWR doesn't exist anymore if not for PeoplExpress...and also FedEx, which has a regional hub at EWR. It was probably smarter for UA to merge with CO instead of US (with which it nearly did). I doubt UA wants back into JFK since it has a fortress hub in the largest US market, something no one else can claim.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Wed May 13, 2020 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
klwright69
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:51 pm

Recall that CO did fly from JFK to CLE and IAH. They stopped and started several times. The need for them to serve all 3 airports never really took off. It wasn't worth the expense. Of course premerger UA was just down to LAX/SFO/ and IAD from JFK, after having much more service in prior years. Whether that was a good choice to leave it behind can be debated. Anyway you slice it, JFK was never a total winner for UA or CO. UA doesn't serve JFK, but they now seem happy with LGA and EWR. We don't hear how LAX and SFO didn't need tons more flights from EWR, but UA made it work. I'm talking pre Corona here.
There was a Wall Street Journal article from the late 90's early 2000's. UA, AA, and DL were all frustrated that CO was making EWR so large and CO was picking up corporate clients from them. I don't know if it's still available on google. But CO captured the perception that EWR was not important and built it up while the competition didn't pay much attention to them for a long time.

What nonsense some of you believe. UA has not been hurt much that much that EWR is not in NY proper. As if NJ is somehow less American. New Jersey is actually a nice state. It's not all breweries and chemical/oil tanks. Don't be ignorant. UA and CO have done just fine at EWR. People are not stupid. They learn that EWR is not far from Manhattan. Last I checked, NJ was a state, the same as NY state. Some people only know about JFK, but UA seems to do fine regardless. I haven't flown into EWR in a long time. I always remember hearing, "New York/Newark" over the plane PA system. No one screams out on flights that EWR is in New Jersey. MOST PEOPLE DON"T CARE. I visited a friend in Yonkers and I flew into EWR. He didn't care that it was in NJ.

This thread should be locked the whole EWR vs JFK thing has been discussed here so much prior.
 
winginit
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:52 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

EWR was such a backwater in the 1970's that EA was the largest carrier there while it was their THIRD priority among NY area airports.
TW had a few "leftover" flights pre-deregulation from EWR as did UA. I could be wrong but AA who was a major player competing with EA & TW at JFK and LGA only had a handful of flights out of EWR.

Prior to People's Express it was just a leftover airport for the most part.


What’s kinda interesting is back in the 80s and early 90s, UA actually had a fairly decent size operation at EWR. I believe it was one of their largest non-hub stations. As others mentioned, in the early 2000s, they pulled back to a very small operation.


The origins of EWR as a hub airport indeed date back to PeoplExpress in 1981 and its subsequent acquisition by Texas Air Corporation, which merged it into Continental Airlines in 1986-7. In 1988, Continental and the PANYNJ completed what is now Terminal C (less the C3 concourse which was added in the early 2000s). Terminal C and Continental's growth there were actually a competitive advantage for a time, putting all ops under a single roof (some flights to ATL, ORD, DFW on CO operated from Terminal A), and Continental's rebirth made it a decent airport with a better infrastructure for a time over LGA/JFK. The JFK Terminal redevelopment began in the late 1990s and until then, it was a miserable experience. EWR became CO's most profitable hub and UA saw the value in it when the two merged in 2010. UA indeed had a significant presence at EWR for a long time, and in the 1990s it flew to NRT, LHR, and had flights to MIA in addition to its hubs. One DEN rotation was operated with a 772, which flew DEN-EWR-LHR and was one of four NYC Area to LHR flights UA had at the time. The other 3 operated from JFK (1 daylight and 2 evening flights, which eventually settled on the 763 before being pared back to a single flight on a 772 until 2006, when UA sold the JFK-LHR route to DL). UA also had a significant cargo presence at EWR.


A post of pure beauty. Very well done indeed.

For those who might want to read more on the topic Hard Landing is a must.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:00 pm

Excellent posts, everyone! A great re-telling of the history of this fascinating place. I might even posit that EWR has changed more than any other airport in the U.S., in overall terms including its mission & purpose, its passenger base, its limitations on space, and its reach (well, pre-Covid). From a backwater out-in-the-swamps through-the-tunnels-into-New-Jersey tiny forgotten landing strip to a fortress hub boasting-three-non-stops-to-India-per-day mega-facility, the airport everyone loves to hate but still puts up with for the rewards utterly fascinates me.

One trick Continental used in the early 2000's, when it could be short on gate space, was to position flights from EWR to competitor's hubs in Terminal A. The thinking was this: CO found that the majority of traffic on routes such as EWR-ATL would be O&D, with very little connecting traffic. Therefore, since passengers beginning their journey at EWR had to go through security, might as well move that flight to the A gates, so that flights with more connections could stay in one terminal, minimizing terminal transfers that can only be done by leaving security.

I found this out after being re-routed at the last minute when my SAN-ATL red-eye was canceled. I was rebooked on CO via EWR, and my connecting flight departed from Terminal A. The gate agent I asked about the terminal transfer gave me the run-down, and explained that I was the only connecting passenger this morning onto the ATL flight. I understood, but I noted it for future reference, just in case.

Ironically enough, I am now married to a New Jersey native, and EWR has been my "final destination" for many trips into the NJ and NYC areas. I've learned to navigate out of the rental car lots and everything else that goes with a visit to this fascinating place, but I haven't ever had any reason to connect there since.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:06 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Prior to the pandemic it was very clear UA ran EWR. UA controlled over 70% of the takeoff “slots” and over 60% of the pax. Why did no airline attempt to compete?


First off, in recent years EWR arguably saw more domestic LCC/ULCC competition than any other NYC airport. NK and F9 both entered the market and grew pretty quickly, G4 entered the market, SY moved over from JFK, B6 expanded, WN expanded (until the MAX crisis suddenly hastened their departure). So to say that no airline attempted to compete is to ignore reality. And I'm betting UA saw their yields (to Florida in particular) drop as a result of all that competition. B6 as a percentage of JFK's overall traffic is a bigger overall LCC presence than the combined LCC presence at EWR, but their growth at JFK in recent years has been skewed more towards international than domestic.

If you're asking why one of AA or DL didn't set up a rival hub at EWR, the easy answer is that both airlines lacked EWR slots and gates, and additionally had higher priorities to focus on in the NYC area with their leading positions at LGA and (for DL) JFK.
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:27 pm

I'm one of the people enjoying the re-telling of this history. Thanks for all the great posts so far.

A bit of push back from me:

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I doubt UA wants back into JFK since it has a fortress hub in the largest US market, something no one else can claim.

Hmmm...

United’s new president, Scott Kirby, says moving the flights from JFK was a mistake. Many of United’s most lucrative West Coast customers, he said, want to fly into New York City and not New Jersey. And United lost some of them when it switched the flights to Newark, Kirby told employees at a recent town hall meeting in Newark.

“I wish I could roll back the clock and change the decision,” Kirby said, according a recording of the event. “It was the wrong decision.”

Ref: https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/

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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:32 pm

tphuang wrote:
Also keep in mind that Jersey has changed a lot in the recent years. Hobokken and now Jersey City, weehawken and Bergen country are all quite wealthy areas now. And EWR is more convenient for these areas than LGA/JFK. And the change is only picking up.

I see EWR pulling a greater share of corporate traffic going forward from LGA.


So, you're saying NJ was poor before "recent years"? NJ is home to MANY major F500 and global multinational corporations, a lot of which are less than 1 hour's drive from EWR. Some of NJ's wealthiest areas are just a few exits away from EWR on I-78. Hoboken (one K, not two), Weehawken, and Jersey City have grown exponentially and Bergen county has always been home to some of NJ's other ultra-wealthy areas (Ridgewood, Saddle River, etc). As usual, you know nothing about what you write.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:40 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Also keep in mind that Jersey has changed a lot in the recent years. Hobokken and now Jersey City, weehawken and Bergen country are all quite wealthy areas now. And EWR is more convenient for these areas than LGA/JFK. And the change is only picking up.

I see EWR pulling a greater share of corporate traffic going forward from LGA.


So, you're saying NJ was poor before "recent years"? NJ is home to MANY major F500 and global multinational corporations, a lot of which are less than 1 hour's drive from EWR. Some of NJ's wealthiest areas are just a few exits away from EWR on I-78. Hoboken (one K, not two), Weehawken, and Jersey City have grown exponentially and Bergen county has always been home to some of NJ's other ultra-wealthy areas (Ridgewood, Saddle River, etc). As usual, you know nothing about what you write.


Compare downtown Jersey City from 30 years ago to now and you will see the change in wealth.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:40 pm

A lot of this is the infrastructure in NYC. The highways that run from Manhattan to JFK just cannot handle the mass amounts of traffic (I live in Queens but have had 2 hour-long rides to get to JFK vs 25 minutes when there is no traffic), and with that people looked at EWR which was closer, and had better transport links to manhattan as you could easily take NJ Transit and be able to take the landside train at EWR to your terminal.
in comparison, you don't want to be taking the subway into that area of Queens to get on the AirTrain at JFK.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:41 pm

A lot of this is the infrastructure in NYC. The highways that run from Manhattan to JFK just cannot handle the mass amounts of traffic (I live in Queens but have had 2 hour-long rides to get to JFK vs 25 minutes when there is no traffic), and with that people looked at EWR which was closer, and had better transport links to manhattan as you could easily take NJ Transit and be able to take the landside train at EWR to your terminal.
in comparison, you don't want to be taking the subway into that area of Queens to get on the AirTrain at JFK.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:43 pm

FSDan wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Prior to the pandemic it was very clear UA ran EWR. UA controlled over 70% of the takeoff “slots” and over 60% of the pax. Why did no airline attempt to compete?


First off, in recent years EWR arguably saw more domestic LCC/ULCC competition than any other NYC airport.


To expand on this, I just ran a quick comparison and found more domestic markets that were supposed to have service on 3+ airlines this summer from EWR vs JFK. And that's after WN pulled out.

From EWR:
LAS (UA, NK, F9)
PHX (UA, AA, F9)
MSP (UA, DL, SY)
ORD (UA, AA, F9)
CVG (UA, DL, G4)
MIA (UA, AA, F9)
FLL (UA, B6, NK)
PBI (UA, B6, F9)
RSW (UA, B6, NK)
TPA (UA, B6, NK, F9)
MCO (UA, B6, NK, F9)
ATL (UA, DL, NK, F9)
RDU (UA, DL, F9)
BOS (UA, DL, B6)
SJU (UA, B6, NK, F9)

From JFK:
SEA (DL, B6, AS)
PDX (DL, B6, AS)
SFO (DL, B6, AA, AS)
LAX (DL, B6, AA, AS)
SAN (DL, B6, AA)
LAS (DL, B6, AA)
PHX (DL, B6, AA)
AUS (DL, B6, AA)
ORD (DL, B6, AA)
BNA (DL, B6, AA)
RDU (DL, B6, AA)
BOS (DL, B6, AA)
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:47 pm

Strictly speaking, a monopoly would mean UA would be the ONLY airline to operate to EWR. In real life this is untrue. And lumping in EWR with the NYC market it is totally untrue.

Frankly, AA and DL choose to have more-or-less split hubs in NYC in LGA and JFK. EWR has an advantage being an airport still in the NYC market but also can have one huge hub for domestic and intl ops given its not too far from the city and has the runway space to facilitate longhaul flights (something LGA doesnt have plus the perimeter rule). Making it just as good of a connecting hub as a local NYC hub for UA.
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 6:53 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Also keep in mind that Jersey has changed a lot in the recent years. Hobokken and now Jersey City, weehawken and Bergen country are all quite wealthy areas now. And EWR is more convenient for these areas than LGA/JFK. And the change is only picking up.

I see EWR pulling a greater share of corporate traffic going forward from LGA.


So, you're saying NJ was poor before "recent years"? NJ is home to MANY major F500 and global multinational corporations, a lot of which are less than 1 hour's drive from EWR. Some of NJ's wealthiest areas are just a few exits away from EWR on I-78. Hoboken (one K, not two), Weehawken, and Jersey City have grown exponentially and Bergen county has always been home to some of NJ's other ultra-wealthy areas (Ridgewood, Saddle River, etc). As usual, you know nothing about what you write.


Someone is too eager to say I know nothing. I specifically mentioned the cities right across the river from Manhattan. Lol, you even agreed with me that these places have grown exponentially.

You want to see how JC, Hobokken and Weehawken looked 10 or even 5 years ago vs now? There are many pictures online of the differences. You want to check the housing prices in JC/Hobokken of a single family home vs short hills/orange now vs 10 years ago? All these people moving out of Manhattan used to go further out in Jersey or to Brooklyn or westchester. But now they are setting in right across the river and bringing their money with them.

Here is the deal. People living on the other side of EWR are always going to be flying out of EWR. But the people moving into hudson/bergen county right now used to be flying out of LGA and JFK. And with people working from home now, it's going to have a shift in the people preferring to fly out of EWR vs LGA.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 6:56 pm

FSDan wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Prior to the pandemic it was very clear UA ran EWR. UA controlled over 70% of the takeoff “slots” and over 60% of the pax. Why did no airline attempt to compete?


First off, in recent years EWR arguably saw more domestic LCC/ULCC competition than any other NYC airport.


To expand on this, I just ran a quick comparison and found more domestic markets that were supposed to have service on 3+ airlines this summer from EWR vs JFK. And that's after WN pulled out.

From EWR:
LAS (UA, NK, F9)
PHX (UA, AA, F9)
MSP (UA, DL, SY)
ORD (UA, AA, F9)
CVG (UA, DL, G4)
MIA (UA, AA, F9)
FLL (UA, B6, NK)
PBI (UA, B6, F9)
RSW (UA, B6, NK)
TPA (UA, B6, NK, F9)
MCO (UA, B6, NK, F9)
ATL (UA, DL, NK, F9)
RDU (UA, DL, F9)
BOS (UA, DL, B6)
SJU (UA, B6, NK, F9)

From JFK:
SEA (DL, B6, AS)
PDX (DL, B6, AS)
SFO (DL, B6, AA, AS)
LAX (DL, B6, AA, AS)
SAN (DL, B6, AA)
LAS (DL, B6, AA)
PHX (DL, B6, AA)
AUS (DL, B6, AA)
ORD (DL, B6, AA)
BNA (DL, B6, AA)
RDU (DL, B6, AA)
BOS (DL, B6, AA)


The caveat to that is at JFK, you have DL/B6 in every one of these markets with AA in many of them too. Whereas for EWR, there is no noticeable second carrier.

And if you look at EWR to non-FLL/MCO florida, the capacity difference of IA vs competitor is quite large. And also, F9 has already cut a lot of these flights. I wouldn't count them seriously.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 7:45 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why did no airline attempt to compete?


Short answer, they had JFK, and to a lesser extent LGA.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
EWR serves(d) the most domestic pax in NYC but yet received the least competition? If airlines saw the economics, which they did, they would have clearly added flights. What was the underlying problem?


For a very long time it was because EWR is in Jersey :rotfl: UA can point out that it's the same distance to Manhattan and it takes less time on the LIRR all they want. :lol:

I remember growing up in Europe that every good weekend shopping trip went to JFK, not EWR. In fact, many people in my area didn't know where Newark is. They somewhat confused the spelling due to the pronunciation being similar to New York, so it ended up working for EWR in a roundabout way. But they didn't *intend* to fly to EWR even when it was marketed as New York (Newark). First time I flew into EWR from Europe I was somewhat disappointed (and so where many people on my plane) that we *didn't* technically land in New York City, one of our dream destinations at the time. My aunts and cousins never flew into EWR to go shopping in New York, always into JFK. Because it was in New York. Today I chuckle because I hear my mom who tagged along on some of these how small the hotel rooms were and how dirty New York was. And hearing stories of LGA ceiling leaks didn't help. I last flew into JFK back when UA p.s. went there to connect to LH in first class. It was a nice transfer and a pleasant stay at the small LH F lounge in JFK, but those days are long gone.

UA (and CO before that) has worked very hard to transform EWR from a very utilitarian place into a much nicer experience, with the new Polaris lounge and even car transfers across the tarmac. Likewise, many *A carriers have either shifted from the more prestigious JFK (for int'l carriers anyway) to EWR or at least also fly to EWR, in addition, thanks to UA's fortress hub there. Connecting there has become somewhat easier over the years, and the facilities have been upgraded significantly, mostly financed by United. DL and AA won't really be big there because they have too much of a footprint in JFK and LGA, while UA in return only has a token presence in LGA and no direct presence at JFK.
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 8:01 pm

tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
FSDan wrote:

First off, in recent years EWR arguably saw more domestic LCC/ULCC competition than any other NYC airport.


To expand on this, I just ran a quick comparison and found more domestic markets that were supposed to have service on 3+ airlines this summer from EWR vs JFK. And that's after WN pulled out.

From EWR:
LAS (UA, NK, F9)
PHX (UA, AA, F9)
MSP (UA, DL, SY)
ORD (UA, AA, F9)
CVG (UA, DL, G4)
MIA (UA, AA, F9)
FLL (UA, B6, NK)
PBI (UA, B6, F9)
RSW (UA, B6, NK)
TPA (UA, B6, NK, F9)
MCO (UA, B6, NK, F9)
ATL (UA, DL, NK, F9)
RDU (UA, DL, F9)
BOS (UA, DL, B6)
SJU (UA, B6, NK, F9)

From JFK:
SEA (DL, B6, AS)
PDX (DL, B6, AS)
SFO (DL, B6, AA, AS)
LAX (DL, B6, AA, AS)
SAN (DL, B6, AA)
LAS (DL, B6, AA)
PHX (DL, B6, AA)
AUS (DL, B6, AA)
ORD (DL, B6, AA)
BNA (DL, B6, AA)
RDU (DL, B6, AA)
BOS (DL, B6, AA)


The caveat to that is at JFK, you have DL/B6 in every one of these markets with AA in many of them too. Whereas for EWR, there is no noticeable second carrier.


True. I said EWR is "arguably" more competitive because it's not clear cut. It depends on how you look at it. JFK has a single, stronger LCC competitor (giving B6 more pricing power than what NK/F9/SY/G4, etc. have over at EWR), whereas EWR has more ULCCs splitting up the low fare pie. I included F9 in my comparison because I was looking at what was planned before everything we previously knew on here was thrown out the window. To me this thread doesn't seem concerned with how things are right now in the EWR competitive landscape under crisis conditions.

Either way, I think we can both agree that the premise that "no airline has attempted to compete" at EWR is ridiculous...
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 9:37 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
EWR became CO's most profitable hub and UA saw the value in it when the two merged in 2010. UA indeed had a significant presence at EWR for a long time, and in the 1990s it flew to NRT, LHR, and had flights to MIA in addition to its hubs. One DEN rotation was operated with a 772, which flew DEN-EWR-LHR and was one of four NYC Area to LHR flights UA had at the time. The other 3 operated from JFK (1 daylight and 2 evening flights, which eventually settled on the 763 before being pared back to a single flight on a 772 until 2006, when UA sold the JFK-LHR route to DL). UA also had a significant cargo presence at EWR.

Just a point of information.

What UAL sold was route authority from JFK to London for $21 million. Due to Bermuda 2 however, that meant Delta could fly to Gatwick or Stansted but not to Heathrow (LHR). Open skies with the EU was signed in 2007, and effective in 2008. So a good deal for UAL. Sold the authority while it still had value.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 9:58 pm

The EWR hub is completely from CO. I think Peoples flew LGW, maybe other.

But at some point CO from EWR serviced LGW LHR STN BHX BRS MAN EDI GLA BFS DUB SNN LIS MAD BCN CDG ORY BRU AMS STR DUS CGN FRA MUC TXL ZRH GVA CPH ARN OSL MXP FCO ATH TLV DEL BOM , CAI SVO were out for sale but never launched ACC and JNB flew with WO M11. That is just TATL.

Since the merger UA added some seasonal service such as KEF and OPO but nothing has grown to S America or Asia. All of that came from CO.


With COVID now we won’t see anything but cuts for sometime now :(
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 11:46 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

Just a point of information.

What UAL sold was route authority from JFK to London for $21 million. Due to Bermuda 2 however, that meant Delta could fly to Gatwick or Stansted but not to Heathrow (LHR). Open skies with the EU was signed in 2007, and effective in 2008. So a good deal for UAL. Sold the authority while it still had value.


Agreed, yes. Though I think UA would have likely gotten top dollar regardless, since it held the LHR slot.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 11:50 pm

tpaewr wrote:
The EWR hub is completely from CO. I think Peoples flew LGW, maybe other.”(


Time to reread history.
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Wed May 13, 2020 11:55 pm

tpaewr wrote:
The EWR hub is completely from CO. I think Peoples flew LGW, maybe other.

But at some point CO from EWR serviced LGW LHR STN BHX BRS MAN EDI GLA BFS DUB SNN LIS MAD BCN CDG ORY BRU AMS STR DUS CGN FRA MUC TXL ZRH GVA CPH ARN OSL MXP FCO ATH TLV DEL BOM , CAI SVO were out for sale but never launched ACC and JNB flew with WO M11. That is just TATL.

Since the merger UA added some seasonal service such as KEF and OPO but nothing has grown to S America or Asia. All of that came from CO.


With COVID now we won’t see anything but cuts for sometime now :(


The EWR hub's origins are the PeoplEXPRESS operation, though I don't recall PE operating as a true hub and spoke carrier per se, but its largest base was EWR which at the time of PE's launch, EWR was underutilized. PE flew TATL to LGW, BRU using 747s (I think ORY too but could be wrong). The CO TATL route map from EWR was cumulatively LGW (then LHR from 2008), MAN, EDI, SNN, DUB, BFS, BRS, AMS, BRU, OSL, CPH, ARN, ORY (then CDG), BCN, MAD, FCO, MXP, LIS, FRA, MUC, CGN, TXL, ZRH, GVA, ATH (on and off, seasonally), TLV, STR, DUS, DEL, BOM, GLA, BHX, STN. CAI was announced, but was never launched due to the Arab Spring events in Egypt. SVO was planned, but never launched. ACC and JNB were never operated by CO metal from EWR. To Asia, CO flew to NRT, PVG, PEK, HKG. To South America, CO had GIG and GRU (GIG was axed after 9/11), LIM, BOG, and for a brief time, operated EWR-LIM-SCL, then flew SCL nonstop briefly, but dropped the route ( I may be wrong in that SCL became a tag of the EWR-LIM route). Believe CO may have had CCS and perhaps GYE and Quito or maybe not, Those last two, I do not remember.
 
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Thu May 14, 2020 12:50 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
tpaewr wrote:
The EWR hub is completely from CO. I think Peoples flew LGW, maybe other.

But at some point CO from EWR serviced LGW LHR STN BHX BRS MAN EDI GLA BFS DUB SNN LIS MAD BCN CDG ORY BRU AMS STR DUS CGN FRA MUC TXL ZRH GVA CPH ARN OSL MXP FCO ATH TLV DEL BOM , CAI SVO were out for sale but never launched ACC and JNB flew with WO M11. That is just TATL.

Since the merger UA added some seasonal service such as KEF and OPO but nothing has grown to S America or Asia. All of that came from CO.


With COVID now we won’t see anything but cuts for sometime now :(


The EWR hub's origins are the PeoplEXPRESS operation, though I don't recall PE operating as a true hub and spoke carrier per se, but its largest base was EWR which at the time of PE's launch, EWR was underutilized. PE flew TATL to LGW, BRU using 747s (I think ORY too but could be wrong). The CO TATL route map from EWR was cumulatively LGW (then LHR from 2008), MAN, EDI, SNN, DUB, BFS, BRS, AMS, BRU, OSL, CPH, ARN, ORY (then CDG), BCN, MAD, FCO, MXP, LIS, FRA, MUC, CGN, TXL, ZRH, GVA, ATH (on and off, seasonally), TLV, STR, DUS, DEL, BOM, GLA, BHX, STN. CAI was announced, but was never launched due to the Arab Spring events in Egypt. SVO was planned, but never launched. ACC and JNB were never operated by CO metal from EWR. To Asia, CO flew to NRT, PVG, PEK, HKG. To South America, CO had GIG and GRU (GIG was axed after 9/11), LIM, BOG, and for a brief time, operated EWR-LIM-SCL, then flew SCL nonstop briefly, but dropped the route ( I may be wrong in that SCL became a tag of the EWR-LIM route). Believe CO may have had CCS and perhaps GYE and Quito or maybe not, Those last two, I do not remember.


Don't forget that CO flew to HAM as well! The brief addition of STR wasn't until after the UA merger, was it?
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Re: Why did UA have a monopoly at EWR?

Thu May 14, 2020 1:46 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
tpaewr wrote:
The EWR hub is completely from CO. I think Peoples flew LGW, maybe other.

But at some point CO from EWR serviced LGW LHR STN BHX BRS MAN EDI GLA BFS DUB SNN LIS MAD BCN CDG ORY BRU AMS STR DUS CGN FRA MUC TXL ZRH GVA CPH ARN OSL MXP FCO ATH TLV DEL BOM , CAI SVO were out for sale but never launched ACC and JNB flew with WO M11. That is just TATL.

Since the merger UA added some seasonal service such as KEF and OPO but nothing has grown to S America or Asia. All of that came from CO.


With COVID now we won’t see anything but cuts for sometime now :(


The EWR hub's origins are the PeoplEXPRESS operation, though I don't recall PE operating as a true hub and spoke carrier per se, but its largest base was EWR which at the time of PE's launch, EWR was underutilized. PE flew TATL to LGW, BRU using 747s (I think ORY too but could be wrong). The CO TATL route map from EWR was cumulatively LGW (then LHR from 2008), MAN, EDI, SNN, DUB, BFS, BRS, AMS, BRU, OSL, CPH, ARN, ORY (then CDG), BCN, MAD, FCO, MXP, LIS, FRA, MUC, CGN, TXL, ZRH, GVA, ATH (on and off, seasonally), TLV, STR, DUS, DEL, BOM, GLA, BHX, STN. CAI was announced, but was never launched due to the Arab Spring events in Egypt. SVO was planned, but never launched. ACC and JNB were never operated by CO metal from EWR. To Asia, CO flew to NRT, PVG, PEK, HKG. To South America, CO had GIG and GRU (GIG was axed after 9/11), LIM, BOG, and for a brief time, operated EWR-LIM-SCL, then flew SCL nonstop briefly, but dropped the route ( I may be wrong in that SCL became a tag of the EWR-LIM route). Believe CO may have had CCS and perhaps GYE and Quito or maybe not, Those last two, I do not remember.


PeoplExpress was transforming EWR into a hub and spoke operation when it planned the completion of Terminal C and prepared to leave the old North Terminal. They abandoned the "banjo" layout of Terminals A & B and instead designed concourses which, IMO, were much more amenable to a true hub and spoke operation. Unfortunately for them, they didn't survive much longer after the move.

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