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Max Q
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UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:36 am

Bit puzzled as to why United seems to be an outlier here, planning significant Pilot lay-offs and numerous other cuts in all ranks throughout the company



Yet AA, DL and others are not taking the same action or don’t appear to be


So is UA being smart and proactive here or overreacting and risking being left behind when travel picks up ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:46 am

Reality is they are all going to have layoffs for October 1(unless the feds extend). They retired too many planes for current staff levels and things are not picking up fast enough. They will need to save cash and will have to trim payrolls once the federal money ends.

It's a 6 of one, half dozen the other situation i think. United just chose to mention it now, we all know its going to happen. DL and AA are taking the wait till closer in timeline, but we all know its coming. It's in not a an indication that united is worse off than Delta or AA they just decided to share the bad news earlier and be a little more upfront about it.

It is a terrible situation and they just took a different angle. To be fair i think both Delta and AA have said publicly also that they will be smaller companies. They just were not as open connecting the dots, but you know what that means.
 
Blerg
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:59 am

I read online that UA is firing middle management, what kind of positions are those?
 
KFTG
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:06 am

Blerg wrote:
I read online that UA is firing middle management, what kind of positions are those?

You should have read whatever you read more closely. United has reduced full time mgmt & admin employees’ hours from 40 to 32. They are also targeting at least a 30% of M&A staff to be RIF’d out effective Oct 1 with pink slips going out in July.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:12 am

Blerg wrote:
I read online that UA is firing middle management, what kind of positions are those?

They announced a ~30% reduction in mgmt and admin employees (read: work groups not under a CBA). 4500 pilots is also about 30% of them so I guess its a nit far off assumption that UA plans yo prune ~30% of employees.
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Blerg
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:16 am

KFTG wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I read online that UA is firing middle management, what kind of positions are those?

You should have read whatever you read more closely. United has reduced full time mgmt & admin employees’ hours from 40 to 32. They are also targeting at least a 30% of M&A staff to be RIF’d out effective Oct 1 with pink slips going out in July.


There was nothing more to read, it was one of those aviation news pages on Instagram. They had a story on how United was reducing their workforce among management.
 
jetawayusa
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:49 am

Max Q wrote:
Bit puzzled as to why United seems to be an outlier here, planning significant Pilot lay-offs and numerous other cuts in all ranks throughout the company



Yet AA, DL and others are not taking the same action or don’t appear to be


So is UA being smart and proactive here or overreacting and risking being left behind when travel picks up ?



MAXQ....not sure where you are or what you have been following...... United has chosen to be more public with their plans for layoffs! Perhaps this is to show their shareholders and creditors that they are proactive with their future plans. Delta and American has been more subdued with their plans for media purposes. I went over to a DL friend's place the other day ..listened to a replay of a "town hall meeting" with Ed Bastian and company.... and the F word (furlough) was freely discussed. I also heard a Town hall replay for inflight service group (Flight attendants) and they are finalizing a "retirement package" ...so they can move forward with actual numbers for furloughs. No one can be laid-off until October 1st with the Care Act....we are still in May. I am sure there will be more announcements as we approach the end of the summer. The "word" around delta is that by the end of July the picture will be a lot more clear (fleet plans, fall/winter bookings, Covid Status, what others (AA/UA/) plans for their future. its a waiting game!
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 7:19 am

United is being very open about their plan for the worst, hope for the best strategy.

What’s interesting to me is while some airline CEOs have been relatively optimistic, discussing slight upticks in demand etc, United continues to say it’s all bad with no signs of improvement.

It’s obvious that all airlines will be smaller on October 1. How much headcount can be reduced on a volunteer basis is key right now. They’re being real with employees, encouraging voluntary leaves or early separations and one way to accomplish that is warning them of what’s likely going to happen October 1.
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Miamiairport
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 12:35 pm

Every airline out there including WN will be firing people unless there's a dramatic turnaround in demand this summer. I think that even before October 1 we are going to see airlines petitioning the government to begin layoffs. Airlines just can't keep burning tens of million dollars a day. Since airlines have little clue as to what demand might look like in 30-60 days let alone 90-120 days they can't determine what the level of layoffs would be and therefore want to keep the "troops" as calm and focused on the job as possible.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 12:56 pm

Max Q wrote:
Yet AA, DL and others are not taking the same action or don’t appear to be


You don't know what AA and DL are planning. You may have seen a few elements of what they've announced. Payroll Support Program monies will not support any carrier deep into the 4th Quarter. Look for layoffs by everybody - absolutely everybody.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 1:26 pm

Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.
 
tphuang
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 1:40 pm

Airlines are looking at a L shaped recovery (well maybe not AA). With that kind of recovery, it seems like layoff is foregone conclusion unless airlines can get massive amount of voluntary outs or retirements. The only other thing I can see preventing layoffs is if an airline takes CARE loans and there is stipulation in there for employment level. We will see.

Another airline that has been really upfront about cutting people is G4 (seems like a terrible place to work at). And I guess WN has also been public about becoming smaller.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 1:46 pm

United is being honorable and running their business professionally. 30% is an absolute conservative estimate of the very long run decline in business. The others need to start dealing with the COVID-19 travel industry downturn. The longer they wait, the more severe these measures will need to be.

About seniority, union employees will almost certainly be laid off in order of seniority. I noticed a lot of very young crews... great to see them starting their careers.. but super unstable situation, and each generation gets a taste of that. The younger people are more adaptable to this reality.
 
reltney
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 1:49 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.



You are very wrong. You have a good point but hear me out.

What measurement would you judge the employee..... How can you guarantee you are not biased...... What assurances do you give you are fair. Who gets to judge you? What would you want in guarantees your supervisor isn’t biased...how could you be sure. How do you judge if a passenger complaint was valid. I have been a witness to a made up complaints. One was against my copilot and another a F/A. If it wasn’t for my testimony, they would have been fired. Best part was the copilot was able to sue and get compensated ...it took 3 years but worth it to screw the passenger on false allegations. So basically, who are you to judge others....who is your supervisor to judge you.....what if the bad employee was having a sexual affair to help keep her job but had 100s of complaints but you get let go for 2 complaints when times are thin.

Seniority is unbiased and fair. Unless you have a better idea, it’s what we have.


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KVH68
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 1:57 pm

Some of these union contracts have layoff limits. For example, people hired prior to a certain date have layoff protection. Will airlines break the contract by invoking a clause such as "act of God" to be able to layoff more than the contract limit? If the airline takes the government loan, will they still be allowed to break the contract?
 
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NWAESC
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:00 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.



Again with this? C'mon.

At any rate, any frontline layoffs (pilots, AMTS, ramp, gate) will be done in seniority order. As noted above, there isn't a more equitable-or efficient- way to do that.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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NWAESC
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:02 pm

KVH68 wrote:
Some of these union contracts have layoff limits. For example, people hired prior to a certain date have layoff protection. Will airlines break the contract by invoking a clause such as "act of God" to be able to layoff more than the contract limit? If the airline takes the government loan, will they still be allowed to break the contract?



Most contracts have Force Majeure articles in them. I would bet on many of them being invoked come 10/1.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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adamblang
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:11 pm

Blerg wrote:
I read online that UA is firing middle management, what kind of positions are those?

The job roles classified as management and administrative are listed out here: https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/co ... orate.html

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AA747123
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:11 pm

The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.
 
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acavpics
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:18 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.


Are you actually taking what he said to be true? He owns an aircraft manufacturing company, not an airline.
 
reltney
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:21 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.



Really.....Boeing CEO..........might as well get stock advice from a gas station attendant..... I am a Boeing pilot and fan.... the Boeing ceo might be better off guessing which major airline manufacture will be out of business in September....
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McNugent
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:23 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.


If you’re going to quote garbage, at least quote it correctly. That isn’t what he said. Look up what defines an airline as a “major”. By the way, the Boeing CEO needs to get his own dumpster fire in order before he starts predicting the demise of others.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-ceo-p ... 35220.html
 
ripcordd
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:25 pm

United took government cheese and part of that was to keep employees on the clock and not violate their contract. United tried and now backed off in trying to make everyone PT it did take a lawsuit for them to stop but they tried. So while we all know their will be a layoff unless government cheese is given out again which in an election year is very possible the layoffs will start Oct 1st. All airlines will layoff all employees know this but only United has pissed off their employees more than the others for trying to be sneaky.
 
bigb
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:26 pm

Looking at UA big displacement bid recently, I would surprised if they wouldn’t. They have the most exposure with COVID effecting the international market with the large amount of wide bodies. Also, unlike AA, United hasn’t offered early outs or a LOA packet to that AA has offered their pilot group.
 
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:28 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
United is being honorable and running their business professionally.


Announcing layoffs with no severance definitely fosters widespread angst amongst employees. As you may know, voluntary departures in the meantime are offered a little something. This forces a game theory exercise on the workforce which is likely, very stressful.The strategy of incentivizing employees to bet against themselves and "play the game" with their livelihoods is definitely not honorable or professional.
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winginit
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:37 pm

BMIMSNPHX wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
United is being honorable and running their business professionally.


Announcing layoffs with no severance definitely fosters widespread angst amongst employees. As you may know, voluntary departures in the meantime are offered a little something. This forces a game theory exercise on the workforce which is likely, very stressful.The strategy of incentivizing employees to bet against themselves and "play the game" with their livelihoods is definitely not honorable or professional.


I'm sorry but as opposed to what? Pretending everything is sunshine and rainbows until you drop the hammer on October 1st? Kirby's tone has been dire, very dire, and no doubt it is fostering widespread angst; but you know what? He's being honest - the situation is dire, and it's a time of tremendous angst for virtually all airline employees who should be sharpening their resumes and seriously considering voluntary departures in order to secure other employment before there's a literal flood of unemployed airline employees. I'd prefer honesty here as opposed to cloak and dagger.
Last edited by winginit on Wed May 13, 2020 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:38 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.



Again with this? C'mon.

At any rate, any frontline layoffs (pilots, AMTS, ramp, gate) will be done in seniority order. As noted above, there isn't a more equitable-or efficient- way to do that.

Actually, layoffs based on seniority might be efficient, but not fair; when you have to go through RIF, you need to keep your best employees, not the ones who have been on the company the longest
Pi7472000 is right: some junior employees are much better than senior employees, and the better employees are the ones you want to keep.

Just a very easy example: you have 2 mechanics, one with 1 year seniority one with 20 years seniority. The "senior" mechanic keeps screwing the repairs, requiring someone to go after him/her to correct the one, while the "junior" mechanic does the job right the first time and on time; do you really want to keep the senior mechanic?
 
UALifer
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:45 pm

Just about every company out there does layoffs based on merit and not seniority, INCLUDING management employees at airlines. So please don’t argue that “there’s no other way to do it”, because that’s ludicrous. The only reason airlines lay off in seniority order is because the CBAs require it and because it’s easier to just cut everyone below a certain line when you’re talking about massive numbers of layoffs.
 
LNCS0930
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:51 pm

Remember there is a difference between layoffs and furloughs. Layoffs are permanent, furloughs rarely are. I can see a scenario where layoffs are minimal depending upon how many employees take these retirement separations the airlines have offered.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:51 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.
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BMIMSNPHX
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:54 pm

winginit wrote:
I'm sorry but as opposed to what? Pretending everything is sunshine and rainbows until you drop the hammer on October 1st? Kirby's tone has been dire, very dire, and no doubt it is fostering widespread angst; but you know what? He's being honest - the situation is dire, and it's a time of tremendous angst for virtually all airline employees who should be sharpening their resumes and seriously considering voluntary departures in order to secure other employment before there's a literal flood of unemployed airline employees. I'd prefer honesty here as opposed to cloak and dagger.


I agree that honesty about the gravity of this crisis is a valid, if not the best approach. Other airlines are being honest by saying they will be smaller and would rather wait until they have a better idea of where things are going.

From my view, Kirby is engaging in maneuvering beyond simply telling the truth. Maybe he is publicly negotiating further payroll support. We are in a election year, after all. Additionally, the removal of severance benefits after September does present employees with a difficult decision as I share in my original post. United is showing little effort in fostering goodwill with employees, e.g. finding loopholes to cut pay in the meantime. That approach has come back to bite United many times in the past.

It is easy to get excited about the first mover, even on such a dismal topic. A clear picture is so...appealing.
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Alias1024
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:02 pm

UALifer wrote:
Just about every company out there does layoffs based on merit and not seniority, INCLUDING management employees at airlines. So please don’t argue that “there’s no other way to do it”, because that’s ludicrous. The only reason airlines lay off in seniority order is because the CBAs require it and because it’s easier to just cut everyone below a certain line when you’re talking about massive numbers of layoffs.


There have been repeated discussions on this site about how you could devise a merit based ranking system of pilots. None have managed to do so without introducing incentives that could lead to reduced safety. The seniority system avoids those incentives.
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WayexTDI
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:06 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.

Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".
 
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NWAESC
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:09 pm

That angle assumes that poor performing employees have just been given a pass over the years.

Your example of the 20 year AMT is a good illustration. If he's constantly botching jobs, why is he still employed?

Those incidents are good objective points to consider. Now how do you measure someone that works the ramp? What metrics do you use, and how do you apply them equitably?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:13 pm

NWAESC wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
Some of these union contracts have layoff limits. For example, people hired prior to a certain date have layoff protection. Will airlines break the contract by invoking a clause such as "act of God" to be able to layoff more than the contract limit? If the airline takes the government loan, will they still be allowed to break the contract?



Most contracts have Force Majeure articles in them. I would bet on many of them being invoked come 10/1.



With the UA and DL pilot contracts, they have redone the furlough protection to target scope and outsourcing. If the furloughs reach the Date of contract signing, the airline must reconfigure 76 seat aircraft into 70 seat aircraft. It is probably more effective than a “no furlough clause”.
Last edited by Web500sjc on Wed May 13, 2020 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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global1
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:15 pm

Filing for Chapter 11 does not necessarily equate to "going out of business."
If the situation remains as dire as it is, I expect that if one of the 'Big 3' files, the other two may also. Maybe pre-packaged. Do it while you have a cash cushion to come out the other end. UA/CO and AA/LCC have been to the rodeo 3 times already.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:18 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.

Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".


So do tell, how do you figure out who is the "best and brightest" when it comes to a safety related position? What makes a pilot or FA more valuable to keep?
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Dalmd88
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:24 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.

Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".

At DL AMT's are non union. Any RIF that happens will most likely be a seniority based RIF from the bottom up. The last RIF we had there was a clause that any AMT that had a 'final warning letter' in their file, they were subject to RIF. As for the unions protecting the lazy and unproductive. Well this final warning statement revealed you don't need a union to protect these types. Non union Delta had a number of AMT's with MULTIPLE 'final warning letters' on file.

As for the up coming October, I know at Delta we all know there will be a RIF. Management from the top keeps saying they don't want to , but we all know it is coming. There is a retirement package being worked on currently. A good package will save a lot of newer employees. TechOps has a lot of AMT's that are on the cusp of retirement. With a lot of retirements hopefully the RIF will be mostly just a musical chairs exercise to put all that are left in the open slots, with very few having to make an involuntary exit.
 
UALifer
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:35 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:29 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
UALifer wrote:
Just about every company out there does layoffs based on merit and not seniority, INCLUDING management employees at airlines. So please don’t argue that “there’s no other way to do it”, because that’s ludicrous. The only reason airlines lay off in seniority order is because the CBAs require it and because it’s easier to just cut everyone below a certain line when you’re talking about massive numbers of layoffs.


There have been repeated discussions on this site about how you could devise a merit based ranking system of pilots. None have managed to do so without introducing incentives that could lead to reduced safety. The seniority system avoids those incentives.


Why not devise a ranking system based on safety then? i.e. pilots who have exhibited less safe practices in the past would be ranked towards the bottom of the list. There's also other poor practices that don't compromise safety that could be taken into account. For example, I had a pilot once who blew into his destination 40 minutes early and was furious his gate wasn't open. He proceeded to block the entire ramp area and not listen to ramp control instructions until the aircraft on his gate pushed out, preventing other aircraft from pushing back and other aircraft from accessing their gates, gridlocking the airport. If you think anything happened to that pilot, you would be mistaken. There is very little accountability for actions like that, and it's ridiculous.

Either way, pilots are not the group that I'm actually concerned with. Any group whose sole and primary function is safety (pilots, possibly Tech Ops), would hopefully be firing employees who don't practice good safety and therefore the remaining employees merits (outside of those who are actively combative) are fairly even across the board. There are a number of other roles that can be very easily measured without compromising safety. If a large portion of your job function is to provide some sort of service, not have true accountability for poor performance in that function is extremely unfair to the junior employees who perform well in both service and safety.
 
AA94
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:32 pm

Frontline employees (those covered by a CBA) will be furloughed based on seniority per the terms of their agreement. Management & Administrative employees (basically all back office functions which are not covered by a CBA) will be laid off.

BMIMSNPHX wrote:
I agree that honesty about the gravity of this crisis is a valid, if not the best approach. Other airlines are being honest by saying they will be smaller and would rather wait until they have a better idea of where things are going.

From my view, Kirby is engaging in maneuvering beyond simply telling the truth. Maybe he is publicly negotiating further payroll support. We are in a election year, after all. Additionally, the removal of severance benefits after September does present employees with a difficult decision as I share in my original post. United is showing little effort in fostering goodwill with employees, e.g. finding loopholes to cut pay in the meantime. That approach has come back to bite United many times in the past.

It is easy to get excited about the first mover, even on such a dismal topic. A clear picture is so...appealing.


The decision is difficult because the situation is difficult. CARES put the airline industry on a ventilator by prolonging the inevitable, but the writing was on the wall once the crisis became more than a passing event. Kirby's messaging is anxiety-inducing, but gives employees time to consider their situation rather than pink-slipping without notice. It's gut-wrenching to watch years of company-labor progress get undone so quickly, but I'm not sure that's entirely management's fault.

ripcordd wrote:
United took government cheese and part of that was to keep employees on the clock and not violate their contract. United tried and now backed off in trying to make everyone PT it did take a lawsuit for them to stop but they tried. So while we all know their will be a layoff unless government cheese is given out again which in an election year is very possible the layoffs will start Oct 1st. All airlines will layoff all employees know this but only United has pissed off their employees more than the others for trying to be sneaky.


There's no "loophole" to cut pay from a legal perspective. All airlines have reduced hours (both pre-CARES and post-CARES) for their corporate staff, but the media only picked up on UA/B6. DL/AS have done the same. There's a gap in understanding between what CARES actually does versus what the public thinks it does, and therein lies the issue. Guarantee you the powers that be in government have signed off on this approach.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:34 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
As for the up coming October, I know at Delta we all know there will be a RIF. Management from the top keeps saying they don't want to , but we all know it is coming. There is a retirement package being worked on currently. A good package will save a lot of newer employees. TechOps has a lot of AMT's that are on the cusp of retirement. With a lot of retirements hopefully the RIF will be mostly just a musical chairs exercise to put all that are left in the open slots, with very few having to make an involuntary exit.


A good package will really help. I think more long(er) term VLOAs will help as well. I hope they're putting some real thought into it.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:40 pm

winginit wrote:
BMIMSNPHX wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
United is being honorable and running their business professionally.


Announcing layoffs with no severance definitely fosters widespread angst amongst employees. As you may know, voluntary departures in the meantime are offered a little something. This forces a game theory exercise on the workforce which is likely, very stressful.The strategy of incentivizing employees to bet against themselves and "play the game" with their livelihoods is definitely not honorable or professional.


I'm sorry but as opposed to what? Pretending everything is sunshine and rainbows until you drop the hammer on October 1st? Kirby's tone has been dire, very dire, and no doubt it is fostering widespread angst; but you know what? He's being honest - the situation is dire, and it's a time of tremendous angst for virtually all airline employees who should be sharpening their resumes and seriously considering voluntary departures in order to secure other employment before there's a literal flood of unemployed airline employees. I'd prefer honesty here as opposed to cloak and dagger.


I agree. I just don’t see any other scenario unfolding here. I hope I am wrong, but I just don’t see travel returning for quite a while. Not only will people be afraid, in some cases, the economic impact of this pa endemic will have diminished their ability to travel. Moreover, if business profits are down, travel (especially that in the J cabin, where the money is made) will be as well.

In some ways, I wonder if these federal grants/loans in exchange for keeping everyone on pay just prolong the inevitable, and at a great expense to the longer term health of our economy.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:41 pm

A couple of thoughts regarding UAL pilot staffing:

1. UAL has steadfastly maintained that they won't offer early out retirement packages to their pilots as it's too expensive. Yet AA has done exactly that. Further, Scott Kelly has maintained that short-term furloughs are expensive, yet they're preparing to do just that. In other words, the staffing is too great long term.

2. Under the guise of "Never let a crisis go to waste," I guarantee that concessions will be proposed by UAL to ALPA. These concessions will include scope, pay, benefits, vacation and scheduling. As a friend of mine often says, "Don't create a permanent solution to a temporary problem." Or from another perspective, it's interesting how a company can drag it's feet until it wants something, then suddenly daily - even round-the-clock - negotiations are possible. So now we'll see if UAL ALPA drags it's feet as we get closer to October 1.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 511
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:47 pm

I think you will first see airlines try to coax older workers to take retirement. Unfortunately being cash strapped it's not like they can offer lucrative packages to take a walk. Second they will try to get whatever number of employees to take a voluntary unpaid leave of absence.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:47 pm

UALifer wrote:
Why not devise a ranking system based on safety then? i.e. pilots who have exhibited less safe practices in the past would be ranked towards the bottom of the list.


OK, just how do you do this...?

UALifer wrote:
There's also other poor practices that don't compromise safety that could be taken into account. For example, I had a pilot once who blew into his destination 40 minutes early and was furious his gate wasn't open. He proceeded to block the entire ramp area and not listen to ramp control instructions until the aircraft on his gate pushed out, preventing other aircraft from pushing back and other aircraft from accessing their gates, gridlocking the airport. If you think anything happened to that pilot, you would be mistaken. There is very little accountability for actions like that, and it's ridiculous.


One, you KNOW this how? Second, how do you know there was no meeting, hearing or discipline about your allegation? If you were the crew involved, would you want this to be public knowledge?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2512
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:54 pm

AA94 wrote:
Frontline employees (those covered by a CBA) will be furloughed based on seniority per the terms of their agreement. Management & Administrative employees (basically all back office functions which are not covered by a CBA) will be laid off.


Frontline and IOC/NOC/SOC management also can be furloughed depending on what the outlook is for their position. Majority of management and support staff that are reduced will be laid off but there will also be some furloughs for management where the expected period of furlough is less than four months and it is better to bring back in the local experience as opposed to starting new since it takes time to get those positions up to speed.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
UALifer
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:35 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:08 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
UALifer wrote:
Why not devise a ranking system based on safety then? i.e. pilots who have exhibited less safe practices in the past would be ranked towards the bottom of the list.


OK, just how do you do this...?

UALifer wrote:
There's also other poor practices that don't compromise safety that could be taken into account. For example, I had a pilot once who blew into his destination 40 minutes early and was furious his gate wasn't open. He proceeded to block the entire ramp area and not listen to ramp control instructions until the aircraft on his gate pushed out, preventing other aircraft from pushing back and other aircraft from accessing their gates, gridlocking the airport. If you think anything happened to that pilot, you would be mistaken. There is very little accountability for actions like that, and it's ridiculous.


One, you KNOW this how? Second, how do you know there was no meeting, hearing or discipline about your allegation? If you were the crew involved, would you want this to be public knowledge?


This is getting off topic but I'll answer you and hopefully we can move past this. I know because I had a conversation with the Chief Pilot about it, who I knew very well. Yes, there was a meeting but nothing more, and I seriously doubt that meeting changed the attitude of an entitled senior pilot, because I've dealt with many over the years. I don't really care if he wants it to be public knowledge. If he didn't want it to be public knowledge maybe he shouldn't have gone on a rant over the radio to the operations employees and ramp controller when he was very clearly in the wrong.

Again, pilots are my least concern when it comes to seniority based layoffs. I brought up the safety based system because I haven't been a part of those past discussions on this board regarding how to build a merit system for pilots and I was curious what others thoughts might be. You're right, it probably wouldn't work, but it was just a thought. Like I said, I would hope that anyone exhibiting unsafe practices are already being severely disciplined or fired.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2512
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:25 pm

UALifer wrote:
Like I said, I would hope that anyone exhibiting unsafe practices are already being severely disciplined or fired.


Often those that are not severely disciplined or fired only are that way due to a failure by managers to hold them accountable. Plenty of lower level managers don't want to have the tough discussions or they don't know how to properly coach an employee. Slapping down a write-up and telling the employee to sign it doesn't get the results that you need when it is imperative that an employee improve their actions/behaviors/mindsets.

There are plenty of employees who post-furloughs will still be around exhibiting unsafe behaviors but that is because they were never corrected properly and not held accountable for their failures. Very few that unions "save" truly had everything done correctly from the start.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
dm22
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:39 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


What a biased, ignorant statement to make. Had it not been for the work and sacrifices made by more senior people, the junior people wouldn't have a place to work. With seniority comes experience. I've been around enough junior people to see the good and the bad.
 
codc10
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:05 pm

Anyone who suggests all airlines aren't having the same conversations internally (despite public proclamations) are deluding themselves.

United is leading with the chin on bearish predictions but certainly would pull back on the doomsday scenario if the situation improves. Personally, I think it would be more painful to project an optimistic, rosy outlook and, come October, be forced into slashing worse than expected because the market isn't recovering, or a second wave is leading to another round of mobility restrictions.

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