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KVH68
Posts: 264
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 1:57 pm

Some of these union contracts have layoff limits. For example, people hired prior to a certain date have layoff protection. Will airlines break the contract by invoking a clause such as "act of God" to be able to layoff more than the contract limit? If the airline takes the government loan, will they still be allowed to break the contract?
 
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NWAESC
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:00 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.



Again with this? C'mon.

At any rate, any frontline layoffs (pilots, AMTS, ramp, gate) will be done in seniority order. As noted above, there isn't a more equitable-or efficient- way to do that.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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NWAESC
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:02 pm

KVH68 wrote:
Some of these union contracts have layoff limits. For example, people hired prior to a certain date have layoff protection. Will airlines break the contract by invoking a clause such as "act of God" to be able to layoff more than the contract limit? If the airline takes the government loan, will they still be allowed to break the contract?



Most contracts have Force Majeure articles in them. I would bet on many of them being invoked come 10/1.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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adamblang
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:11 pm

Blerg wrote:
I read online that UA is firing middle management, what kind of positions are those?

The job roles classified as management and administrative are listed out here: https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/co ... orate.html

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Last edited by adamblang on Wed May 13, 2020 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AA747123
Posts: 287
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:11 pm

The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.
 
acavpics
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Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:18 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.


Are you actually taking what he said to be true? He owns an aircraft manufacturing company, not an airline.
 
reltney
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:21 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.



Really.....Boeing CEO..........might as well get stock advice from a gas station attendant..... I am a Boeing pilot and fan.... the Boeing ceo might be better off guessing which major airline manufacture will be out of business in September....
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
McNugent
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:23 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The Boeing CEO stated that one of the "big 3" will go out of business by September, so with the vacuum of traffic from the failed airline the survivors may be able to avoid layoffs. UA may be premature in their statement.


If you’re going to quote garbage, at least quote it correctly. That isn’t what he said. Look up what defines an airline as a “major”. By the way, the Boeing CEO needs to get his own dumpster fire in order before he starts predicting the demise of others.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-ceo-p ... 35220.html
 
ripcordd
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:25 pm

United took government cheese and part of that was to keep employees on the clock and not violate their contract. United tried and now backed off in trying to make everyone PT it did take a lawsuit for them to stop but they tried. So while we all know their will be a layoff unless government cheese is given out again which in an election year is very possible the layoffs will start Oct 1st. All airlines will layoff all employees know this but only United has pissed off their employees more than the others for trying to be sneaky.
 
bigb
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:26 pm

Looking at UA big displacement bid recently, I would surprised if they wouldn’t. They have the most exposure with COVID effecting the international market with the large amount of wide bodies. Also, unlike AA, United hasn’t offered early outs or a LOA packet to that AA has offered their pilot group.
 
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BMIMSNPHX
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:28 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
United is being honorable and running their business professionally.


Announcing layoffs with no severance definitely fosters widespread angst amongst employees. As you may know, voluntary departures in the meantime are offered a little something. This forces a game theory exercise on the workforce which is likely, very stressful.The strategy of incentivizing employees to bet against themselves and "play the game" with their livelihoods is definitely not honorable or professional.
New home airport: BMIMSNPHXDFW
 
winginit
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:37 pm

BMIMSNPHX wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
United is being honorable and running their business professionally.


Announcing layoffs with no severance definitely fosters widespread angst amongst employees. As you may know, voluntary departures in the meantime are offered a little something. This forces a game theory exercise on the workforce which is likely, very stressful.The strategy of incentivizing employees to bet against themselves and "play the game" with their livelihoods is definitely not honorable or professional.


I'm sorry but as opposed to what? Pretending everything is sunshine and rainbows until you drop the hammer on October 1st? Kirby's tone has been dire, very dire, and no doubt it is fostering widespread angst; but you know what? He's being honest - the situation is dire, and it's a time of tremendous angst for virtually all airline employees who should be sharpening their resumes and seriously considering voluntary departures in order to secure other employment before there's a literal flood of unemployed airline employees. I'd prefer honesty here as opposed to cloak and dagger.
Last edited by winginit on Wed May 13, 2020 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:38 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.



Again with this? C'mon.

At any rate, any frontline layoffs (pilots, AMTS, ramp, gate) will be done in seniority order. As noted above, there isn't a more equitable-or efficient- way to do that.

Actually, layoffs based on seniority might be efficient, but not fair; when you have to go through RIF, you need to keep your best employees, not the ones who have been on the company the longest
Pi7472000 is right: some junior employees are much better than senior employees, and the better employees are the ones you want to keep.

Just a very easy example: you have 2 mechanics, one with 1 year seniority one with 20 years seniority. The "senior" mechanic keeps screwing the repairs, requiring someone to go after him/her to correct the one, while the "junior" mechanic does the job right the first time and on time; do you really want to keep the senior mechanic?
 
UALifer
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:45 pm

Just about every company out there does layoffs based on merit and not seniority, INCLUDING management employees at airlines. So please don’t argue that “there’s no other way to do it”, because that’s ludicrous. The only reason airlines lay off in seniority order is because the CBAs require it and because it’s easier to just cut everyone below a certain line when you’re talking about massive numbers of layoffs.
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 105
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:51 pm

Remember there is a difference between layoffs and furloughs. Layoffs are permanent, furloughs rarely are. I can see a scenario where layoffs are minimal depending upon how many employees take these retirement separations the airlines have offered.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:51 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.
From my cold, dead hands
 
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BMIMSNPHX
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 2:54 pm

winginit wrote:
I'm sorry but as opposed to what? Pretending everything is sunshine and rainbows until you drop the hammer on October 1st? Kirby's tone has been dire, very dire, and no doubt it is fostering widespread angst; but you know what? He's being honest - the situation is dire, and it's a time of tremendous angst for virtually all airline employees who should be sharpening their resumes and seriously considering voluntary departures in order to secure other employment before there's a literal flood of unemployed airline employees. I'd prefer honesty here as opposed to cloak and dagger.


I agree that honesty about the gravity of this crisis is a valid, if not the best approach. Other airlines are being honest by saying they will be smaller and would rather wait until they have a better idea of where things are going.

From my view, Kirby is engaging in maneuvering beyond simply telling the truth. Maybe he is publicly negotiating further payroll support. We are in a election year, after all. Additionally, the removal of severance benefits after September does present employees with a difficult decision as I share in my original post. United is showing little effort in fostering goodwill with employees, e.g. finding loopholes to cut pay in the meantime. That approach has come back to bite United many times in the past.

It is easy to get excited about the first mover, even on such a dismal topic. A clear picture is so...appealing.
New home airport: BMIMSNPHXDFW
 
Alias1024
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:02 pm

UALifer wrote:
Just about every company out there does layoffs based on merit and not seniority, INCLUDING management employees at airlines. So please don’t argue that “there’s no other way to do it”, because that’s ludicrous. The only reason airlines lay off in seniority order is because the CBAs require it and because it’s easier to just cut everyone below a certain line when you’re talking about massive numbers of layoffs.


There have been repeated discussions on this site about how you could devise a merit based ranking system of pilots. None have managed to do so without introducing incentives that could lead to reduced safety. The seniority system avoids those incentives.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:06 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.

Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".
 
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NWAESC
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:09 pm

That angle assumes that poor performing employees have just been given a pass over the years.

Your example of the 20 year AMT is a good illustration. If he's constantly botching jobs, why is he still employed?

Those incidents are good objective points to consider. Now how do you measure someone that works the ramp? What metrics do you use, and how do you apply them equitably?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:13 pm

NWAESC wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
Some of these union contracts have layoff limits. For example, people hired prior to a certain date have layoff protection. Will airlines break the contract by invoking a clause such as "act of God" to be able to layoff more than the contract limit? If the airline takes the government loan, will they still be allowed to break the contract?



Most contracts have Force Majeure articles in them. I would bet on many of them being invoked come 10/1.



With the UA and DL pilot contracts, they have redone the furlough protection to target scope and outsourcing. If the furloughs reach the Date of contract signing, the airline must reconfigure 76 seat aircraft into 70 seat aircraft. It is probably more effective than a “no furlough clause”.
Last edited by Web500sjc on Wed May 13, 2020 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Boiler Up!
 
global1
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:15 pm

Filing for Chapter 11 does not necessarily equate to "going out of business."
If the situation remains as dire as it is, I expect that if one of the 'Big 3' files, the other two may also. Maybe pre-packaged. Do it while you have a cash cushion to come out the other end. UA/CO and AA/LCC have been to the rodeo 3 times already.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:18 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.

Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".


So do tell, how do you figure out who is the "best and brightest" when it comes to a safety related position? What makes a pilot or FA more valuable to keep?
From my cold, dead hands
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3140
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:24 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.

Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".

At DL AMT's are non union. Any RIF that happens will most likely be a seniority based RIF from the bottom up. The last RIF we had there was a clause that any AMT that had a 'final warning letter' in their file, they were subject to RIF. As for the unions protecting the lazy and unproductive. Well this final warning statement revealed you don't need a union to protect these types. Non union Delta had a number of AMT's with MULTIPLE 'final warning letters' on file.

As for the up coming October, I know at Delta we all know there will be a RIF. Management from the top keeps saying they don't want to , but we all know it is coming. There is a retirement package being worked on currently. A good package will save a lot of newer employees. TechOps has a lot of AMT's that are on the cusp of retirement. With a lot of retirements hopefully the RIF will be mostly just a musical chairs exercise to put all that are left in the open slots, with very few having to make an involuntary exit.
 
UALifer
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:35 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:29 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
UALifer wrote:
Just about every company out there does layoffs based on merit and not seniority, INCLUDING management employees at airlines. So please don’t argue that “there’s no other way to do it”, because that’s ludicrous. The only reason airlines lay off in seniority order is because the CBAs require it and because it’s easier to just cut everyone below a certain line when you’re talking about massive numbers of layoffs.


There have been repeated discussions on this site about how you could devise a merit based ranking system of pilots. None have managed to do so without introducing incentives that could lead to reduced safety. The seniority system avoids those incentives.


Why not devise a ranking system based on safety then? i.e. pilots who have exhibited less safe practices in the past would be ranked towards the bottom of the list. There's also other poor practices that don't compromise safety that could be taken into account. For example, I had a pilot once who blew into his destination 40 minutes early and was furious his gate wasn't open. He proceeded to block the entire ramp area and not listen to ramp control instructions until the aircraft on his gate pushed out, preventing other aircraft from pushing back and other aircraft from accessing their gates, gridlocking the airport. If you think anything happened to that pilot, you would be mistaken. There is very little accountability for actions like that, and it's ridiculous.

Either way, pilots are not the group that I'm actually concerned with. Any group whose sole and primary function is safety (pilots, possibly Tech Ops), would hopefully be firing employees who don't practice good safety and therefore the remaining employees merits (outside of those who are actively combative) are fairly even across the board. There are a number of other roles that can be very easily measured without compromising safety. If a large portion of your job function is to provide some sort of service, not have true accountability for poor performance in that function is extremely unfair to the junior employees who perform well in both service and safety.
 
AA94
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:32 pm

Frontline employees (those covered by a CBA) will be furloughed based on seniority per the terms of their agreement. Management & Administrative employees (basically all back office functions which are not covered by a CBA) will be laid off.

BMIMSNPHX wrote:
I agree that honesty about the gravity of this crisis is a valid, if not the best approach. Other airlines are being honest by saying they will be smaller and would rather wait until they have a better idea of where things are going.

From my view, Kirby is engaging in maneuvering beyond simply telling the truth. Maybe he is publicly negotiating further payroll support. We are in a election year, after all. Additionally, the removal of severance benefits after September does present employees with a difficult decision as I share in my original post. United is showing little effort in fostering goodwill with employees, e.g. finding loopholes to cut pay in the meantime. That approach has come back to bite United many times in the past.

It is easy to get excited about the first mover, even on such a dismal topic. A clear picture is so...appealing.


The decision is difficult because the situation is difficult. CARES put the airline industry on a ventilator by prolonging the inevitable, but the writing was on the wall once the crisis became more than a passing event. Kirby's messaging is anxiety-inducing, but gives employees time to consider their situation rather than pink-slipping without notice. It's gut-wrenching to watch years of company-labor progress get undone so quickly, but I'm not sure that's entirely management's fault.

ripcordd wrote:
United took government cheese and part of that was to keep employees on the clock and not violate their contract. United tried and now backed off in trying to make everyone PT it did take a lawsuit for them to stop but they tried. So while we all know their will be a layoff unless government cheese is given out again which in an election year is very possible the layoffs will start Oct 1st. All airlines will layoff all employees know this but only United has pissed off their employees more than the others for trying to be sneaky.


There's no "loophole" to cut pay from a legal perspective. All airlines have reduced hours (both pre-CARES and post-CARES) for their corporate staff, but the media only picked up on UA/B6. DL/AS have done the same. There's a gap in understanding between what CARES actually does versus what the public thinks it does, and therein lies the issue. Guarantee you the powers that be in government have signed off on this approach.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1586
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Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:34 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
As for the up coming October, I know at Delta we all know there will be a RIF. Management from the top keeps saying they don't want to , but we all know it is coming. There is a retirement package being worked on currently. A good package will save a lot of newer employees. TechOps has a lot of AMT's that are on the cusp of retirement. With a lot of retirements hopefully the RIF will be mostly just a musical chairs exercise to put all that are left in the open slots, with very few having to make an involuntary exit.


A good package will really help. I think more long(er) term VLOAs will help as well. I hope they're putting some real thought into it.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:40 pm

winginit wrote:
BMIMSNPHX wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
United is being honorable and running their business professionally.


Announcing layoffs with no severance definitely fosters widespread angst amongst employees. As you may know, voluntary departures in the meantime are offered a little something. This forces a game theory exercise on the workforce which is likely, very stressful.The strategy of incentivizing employees to bet against themselves and "play the game" with their livelihoods is definitely not honorable or professional.


I'm sorry but as opposed to what? Pretending everything is sunshine and rainbows until you drop the hammer on October 1st? Kirby's tone has been dire, very dire, and no doubt it is fostering widespread angst; but you know what? He's being honest - the situation is dire, and it's a time of tremendous angst for virtually all airline employees who should be sharpening their resumes and seriously considering voluntary departures in order to secure other employment before there's a literal flood of unemployed airline employees. I'd prefer honesty here as opposed to cloak and dagger.


I agree. I just don’t see any other scenario unfolding here. I hope I am wrong, but I just don’t see travel returning for quite a while. Not only will people be afraid, in some cases, the economic impact of this pa endemic will have diminished their ability to travel. Moreover, if business profits are down, travel (especially that in the J cabin, where the money is made) will be as well.

In some ways, I wonder if these federal grants/loans in exchange for keeping everyone on pay just prolong the inevitable, and at a great expense to the longer term health of our economy.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2086
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:41 pm

A couple of thoughts regarding UAL pilot staffing:

1. UAL has steadfastly maintained that they won't offer early out retirement packages to their pilots as it's too expensive. Yet AA has done exactly that. Further, Scott Kelly has maintained that short-term furloughs are expensive, yet they're preparing to do just that. In other words, the staffing is too great long term.

2. Under the guise of "Never let a crisis go to waste," I guarantee that concessions will be proposed by UAL to ALPA. These concessions will include scope, pay, benefits, vacation and scheduling. As a friend of mine often says, "Don't create a permanent solution to a temporary problem." Or from another perspective, it's interesting how a company can drag it's feet until it wants something, then suddenly daily - even round-the-clock - negotiations are possible. So now we'll see if UAL ALPA drags it's feet as we get closer to October 1.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:47 pm

I think you will first see airlines try to coax older workers to take retirement. Unfortunately being cash strapped it's not like they can offer lucrative packages to take a walk. Second they will try to get whatever number of employees to take a voluntary unpaid leave of absence.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2086
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:47 pm

UALifer wrote:
Why not devise a ranking system based on safety then? i.e. pilots who have exhibited less safe practices in the past would be ranked towards the bottom of the list.


OK, just how do you do this...?

UALifer wrote:
There's also other poor practices that don't compromise safety that could be taken into account. For example, I had a pilot once who blew into his destination 40 minutes early and was furious his gate wasn't open. He proceeded to block the entire ramp area and not listen to ramp control instructions until the aircraft on his gate pushed out, preventing other aircraft from pushing back and other aircraft from accessing their gates, gridlocking the airport. If you think anything happened to that pilot, you would be mistaken. There is very little accountability for actions like that, and it's ridiculous.


One, you KNOW this how? Second, how do you know there was no meeting, hearing or discipline about your allegation? If you were the crew involved, would you want this to be public knowledge?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:54 pm

AA94 wrote:
Frontline employees (those covered by a CBA) will be furloughed based on seniority per the terms of their agreement. Management & Administrative employees (basically all back office functions which are not covered by a CBA) will be laid off.


Frontline and IOC/NOC/SOC management also can be furloughed depending on what the outlook is for their position. Majority of management and support staff that are reduced will be laid off but there will also be some furloughs for management where the expected period of furlough is less than four months and it is better to bring back in the local experience as opposed to starting new since it takes time to get those positions up to speed.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
UALifer
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:35 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:08 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
UALifer wrote:
Why not devise a ranking system based on safety then? i.e. pilots who have exhibited less safe practices in the past would be ranked towards the bottom of the list.


OK, just how do you do this...?

UALifer wrote:
There's also other poor practices that don't compromise safety that could be taken into account. For example, I had a pilot once who blew into his destination 40 minutes early and was furious his gate wasn't open. He proceeded to block the entire ramp area and not listen to ramp control instructions until the aircraft on his gate pushed out, preventing other aircraft from pushing back and other aircraft from accessing their gates, gridlocking the airport. If you think anything happened to that pilot, you would be mistaken. There is very little accountability for actions like that, and it's ridiculous.


One, you KNOW this how? Second, how do you know there was no meeting, hearing or discipline about your allegation? If you were the crew involved, would you want this to be public knowledge?


This is getting off topic but I'll answer you and hopefully we can move past this. I know because I had a conversation with the Chief Pilot about it, who I knew very well. Yes, there was a meeting but nothing more, and I seriously doubt that meeting changed the attitude of an entitled senior pilot, because I've dealt with many over the years. I don't really care if he wants it to be public knowledge. If he didn't want it to be public knowledge maybe he shouldn't have gone on a rant over the radio to the operations employees and ramp controller when he was very clearly in the wrong.

Again, pilots are my least concern when it comes to seniority based layoffs. I brought up the safety based system because I haven't been a part of those past discussions on this board regarding how to build a merit system for pilots and I was curious what others thoughts might be. You're right, it probably wouldn't work, but it was just a thought. Like I said, I would hope that anyone exhibiting unsafe practices are already being severely disciplined or fired.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:25 pm

UALifer wrote:
Like I said, I would hope that anyone exhibiting unsafe practices are already being severely disciplined or fired.


Often those that are not severely disciplined or fired only are that way due to a failure by managers to hold them accountable. Plenty of lower level managers don't want to have the tough discussions or they don't know how to properly coach an employee. Slapping down a write-up and telling the employee to sign it doesn't get the results that you need when it is imperative that an employee improve their actions/behaviors/mindsets.

There are plenty of employees who post-furloughs will still be around exhibiting unsafe behaviors but that is because they were never corrected properly and not held accountable for their failures. Very few that unions "save" truly had everything done correctly from the start.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
dm22
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:39 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


What a biased, ignorant statement to make. Had it not been for the work and sacrifices made by more senior people, the junior people wouldn't have a place to work. With seniority comes experience. I've been around enough junior people to see the good and the bad.
 
codc10
Posts: 2878
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:05 pm

Anyone who suggests all airlines aren't having the same conversations internally (despite public proclamations) are deluding themselves.

United is leading with the chin on bearish predictions but certainly would pull back on the doomsday scenario if the situation improves. Personally, I think it would be more painful to project an optimistic, rosy outlook and, come October, be forced into slashing worse than expected because the market isn't recovering, or a second wave is leading to another round of mobility restrictions.
 
FlyGuyNash
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:56 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:07 pm

United has the least amount of pilot retirements of the big 3 from now until 2022 and especially if no early retirement is offered they will have no choice but to furlough. American is making a good effort to get people out the door now with their early out program which should mitigate some furloughs. Delta is probably in the best shape to recover quicker and have to furlough less since they do way fewer international flying than AA/UA and domestic will recover a lot faster than international plus Delta should have a early out package here shortly.
 
catiii
Posts: 3591
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 5:40 pm

ripcordd wrote:
United took government cheese and part of that was to keep employees on the clock and not violate their contract. United tried and now backed off in trying to make everyone PT it did take a lawsuit for them to stop but they tried. So while we all know their will be a layoff unless government cheese is given out again which in an election year is very possible the layoffs will start Oct 1st. All airlines will layoff all employees know this but only United has pissed off their employees more than the others for trying to be sneaky.


Other carriers have reduced hours too. It isn't unique to United. In my opinion UA is being smart about being so transparent about their plans come 10/1. It drives M&A and others internally to proactively take the voluntary options available to them, getting them off the books earlier.

If you think any of this is unique to UA though you're mistaken.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1771
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 6:49 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

You really don't understand this industry and labor in general do you? Any organized labor group is going to have protections that require furloughs from the bottom up.

Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".


So do tell, how do you figure out who is the "best and brightest" when it comes to a safety related position? What makes a pilot or FA more valuable to keep?

Well, just like pretty every company that doesn't have unions on-site does. This is nothing new, employees are rated in their jobs every single day.

What makes a pilot more valuable to keep than another one? I dunno, for example: the one that doesn't break airplanes left and right, the one who can land a plane properly without trashing tires every time, etc.
There are plenty of matrix available to rate an employee, irregardless whether that employee is in a safety-related position or not.

Just one question: it would appear, according to you, that pilots are never fired for safety-related issues. If true, that's scary.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1771
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 6:56 pm

dm22 wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Hopefully they're not only based on seniortiy. I have had many junior employees provide much better service than senior employees. hope they take into account the performence of the employee along with seniority.

I have had some really poor service from senior employees. Really odd how in the airlines junior employees are expected to sacrifice their jobs just because some may have been there a little longer. That would never be the sole reason to lay somone off in many other industries.


What a biased, ignorant statement to make. Had it not been for the work and sacrifices made by more senior people, the junior people wouldn't have a place to work. With seniority comes experience. I've been around enough junior people to see the good and the bad.

And with seniority also comes bad habits and tendencies to do things wrong "because that's how we've always done them".

No one is saying "fire the seniors first"; what we are saying is "fire the worst of your employees first and keep the best".

I've seen junior employees, as well as senior employees, do stupid things; on the other hand, I've seen senior employees, but also junior employees, do incredibly smart things to make the work safer and more efficient.
I don't care if you're 20 or 60, I don't care if you have 1 year or 40 years of experience: if you're stupid and dangerous, you shouldn't be working for me.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5233
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 7:27 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
I've got several friends who are very junior pilots at American. Of course furloughs are on everyones minds, but they seem pretty sure if they furlough, it wont be a huge number, or for that long. On the pilot side, AA was apparently very understaffed before this all started. They also have the highest mandatory retirement numbers of any legacy, approaching 1000 pilots per year starting in a few years, and lasting several years. AA also was pretty proactive with offering an attractive early out program, and short term leaves.

Over 700 of their pilots took the early retirement package, and close to half the remaining pilots took short term leaves, and the company continues to offer short term leaves every month.


This reads like lambs led to slaughter.
 
bigb
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 7:27 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Except that still doesn't make it right or logical; and would actually be the proof (if we ever needed more of them) that CBAs and unions are protecting (some, a lot of maybe?) lazy workers and not the work force in general.

Again, when you need to go through an RIF, you keep your best and brightest employees, not the most senior ones "just because of CBA".


So do tell, how do you figure out who is the "best and brightest" when it comes to a safety related position? What makes a pilot or FA more valuable to keep?

Well, just like pretty every company that doesn't have unions on-site does. This is nothing new, employees are rated in their jobs every single day.

What makes a pilot more valuable to keep than another one? I dunno, for example: the one that doesn't break airplanes left and right, the one who can land a plane properly without trashing tires every time, etc.
There are plenty of matrix available to rate an employee, irregardless whether that employee is in a safety-related position or not.

Just one question: it would appear, according to you, that pilots are never fired for safety-related issues. If true, that's scary.


If you have a problem with seniority furloughs, then just say. Hey I am not a fan of have unions or a CBA on property. That’s what’s what airline management and the unions agreed to. That’s the system and how it works.

Just live with it.
 
COPolynesianPub
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:57 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 7:55 pm

I worked for the CO and UA company for over 36 years in M&A. There were many layoffs due to Bankruptcy filings and 911 as well as the merger of CO and UA. I have experienced pretty much the same strategy in each event. They always seem to have a target percentage of employees to let go. The layoffs were based on number of employees within a specific job function. They were rarely based on seniority but on job performance.
With the combination of CO and UA employees we had a talent selection process where everyone reapplied for their jobs and interviews were conducted. Positions were filled based on the interview. If one department had 20 positions at each carrier and the merged department had 30 total positions, 10 employees would be furloughed. The big difference was that the department would be located in Chicago or Houston and not everyone wanted to move to the other city so you had natural attrition that way.
There have always been packages for employees who were displaced including salary and medical insurance continuation for a period of time based on years of service. and porition grade. The big incentive for people who voluntarily chose to leave and who were not at retirement age were pass privileges for a number of years as well. I know that if an employee was to be furloughed and a met set age and years of service requirement, the employee could elect to retire.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 8:31 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
A couple of thoughts regarding UAL pilot staffing:

1. UAL has steadfastly maintained that they won't offer early out retirement packages to their pilots as it's too expensive. Yet AA has done exactly that. Further, Scott Kelly has maintained that short-term furloughs are expensive, yet they're preparing to do just that. In other words, the staffing is too great long term.

2. Under the guise of "Never let a crisis go to waste," I guarantee that concessions will be proposed by UAL to ALPA. These concessions will include scope, pay, benefits, vacation and scheduling. As a friend of mine often says, "Don't create a permanent solution to a temporary problem." Or from another perspective, it's interesting how a company can drag it's feet until it wants something, then suddenly daily - even round-the-clock - negotiations are possible. So now we'll see if UAL ALPA drags it's feet as we get closer to October 1.



How much money is American offering their pilots to retire early?

United has offered early out retirement packages to all employees including pilots the package does not include money but it does include up to 18 months of medical benefits which many employees who are near but haven't yet reach retirement age said was most important to them.

As far as never let a crisis got to waste the only major concession UA wanted before this crisis was on scope which understandably for the pilots was a nonstarter. ALPA learned their lesson during bankruptcy and won't make that mistake again because UA exploited it. As far as unions go ALPA is the the strongest union at UA and while everyone knows there will need to be some type of concessions I still believe there is a way for ALPA to word the contract that everyone gets something. No one side will get everything they want but I do believe ALPA is smart enough to negotiate a contract that will restore all concessions as UA financial position improves. I don't see ALPA allowing their membership to get locked into a long term COVID-19 contract like they were during and after the bankruptcy years.

Looking employee participation in voluntary programs and what impact it may have on layoffs/furloughs. From the latest numbers I've seen over half of UA's flight attendants (more than 12,000) have participated in the 3-6 month voluntary furlough with some even inquiring if they can extend it. Pilot participation has extremely high although not as high as the FA's group there are at least 3,000 pilots participating in voluntary furlough programs. Dispatchers are a mixed bag we've had participation in the voluntary program but we also have quite a few dispatchers retiring. Some were retiring later this year and moved up their retirement date others have the years and the age and have decided now is the time to retire. Management and Administrative we have already had our pay cut prior to CARES and the number of people putting in their retirement papers continues to grow daily. But as we all know UA was known for being management/administrative heavy (in fact before COVID-19 it was rumored Kirby intended to do major house cleaning and thin out the management/adminstrative ranks) so even with all the retirements I still think Kirby will cut 30% of management/administrative employees. Because UA has a lot of aircraft in short term storage we need a large number of mechanics looking after the fleet their participation rates in voluntary programs is lower but that is by design because a lot of work still has to be done to maintain readiness. This leaves IAM represented, this group has the lowest participation rate and that is completely understandable. While UA has temporarily relented in reducing IAM represented employees hours the public letter Greg Hart put out a few weeks ago made it clear UA would revisit the 30 hour/w schedule in 30 days. And if IAM participation in voluntary programs did not increase UA may be forced to implement the 30hour/w schedule. I put this up here to show people who believe UA is being unfair to IAM represented employees that all work groups are pitching in to help this company out and UA is not just singling out IAM represented employees.
 
bigb
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 8:40 pm

jayunited wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
A couple of thoughts regarding UAL pilot staffing:

1. UAL has steadfastly maintained that they won't offer early out retirement packages to their pilots as it's too expensive. Yet AA has done exactly that. Further, Scott Kelly has maintained that short-term furloughs are expensive, yet they're preparing to do just that. In other words, the staffing is too great long term.

2. Under the guise of "Never let a crisis go to waste," I guarantee that concessions will be proposed by UAL to ALPA. These concessions will include scope, pay, benefits, vacation and scheduling. As a friend of mine often says, "Don't create a permanent solution to a temporary problem." Or from another perspective, it's interesting how a company can drag it's feet until it wants something, then suddenly daily - even round-the-clock - negotiations are possible. So now we'll see if UAL ALPA drags it's feet as we get closer to October 1.



How much money is American offering their pilots to retire early?

United has offered early out retirement packages to all employees including pilots the package does not include money but it does include up to 18 months of medical benefits which many employees who are near but haven't yet reach retirement age said was most important to them.

As far as never let a crisis got to waste the only major concession UA wanted before this crisis was on scope which understandably for the pilots was a nonstarter. ALPA learned their lesson during bankruptcy and won't make that mistake again because UA exploited it. As far as unions go ALPA is the the strongest union at UA and while everyone knows there will need to be some type of concessions I still believe there is a way for ALPA to word the contract that everyone gets something. No one side will get everything they want but I do believe ALPA is smart enough to negotiate a contract that will restore all concessions as UA financial position improves. I don't see ALPA allowing their membership to get locked into a long term COVID-19 contract like they were during and after the bankruptcy years.

Looking employee participation in voluntary programs and what impact it may have on layoffs/furloughs. From the latest numbers I've seen over half of UA's flight attendants (more than 12,000) have participated in the 3-6 month voluntary furlough with some even inquiring if they can extend it. Pilot participation has extremely high although not as high as the FA's group there are at least 3,000 pilots participating in voluntary furlough programs. Dispatchers are a mixed bag we've had participation in the voluntary program but we also have quite a few dispatchers retiring. Some were retiring later this year and moved up their retirement date others have the years and the age and have decided now is the time to retire. Management and Administrative we have already had our pay cut prior to CARES and the number of people putting in their retirement papers continues to grow daily. But as we all know UA was known for being management/administrative heavy (in fact before COVID-19 it was rumored Kirby intended to do major house cleaning and thin out the management/adminstrative ranks) so even with all the retirements I still think Kirby will cut 30% of management/administrative employees. Because UA has a lot of aircraft in short term storage we need a large number of mechanics looking after the fleet their participation rates in voluntary programs is lower but that is by design because a lot of work still has to be done to maintain readiness. This leaves IAM represented, this group has the lowest participation rate and that is completely understandable. While UA has temporarily relented in reducing IAM represented employees hours the public letter Greg Hart put out a few weeks ago made it clear UA would revisit the 30 hour/w schedule in 30 days. And if IAM participation in voluntary programs did not increase UA may be forced to implement the 30hour/w schedule. I put this up here to show people who believe UA is being unfair to IAM represented employees that all work groups are pitching in to help this company out and UA is not just singling out IAM represented employees.


AA pilots were offered

1. Voluntary unpaid Leave of Absense, retain all benefits and accrue Length of Service, up to 12 months.

2. Voluntary Short-Term LoA, paid 55 credited hours, 1/3/6 months long, retain all benefits, 401k/profit sharing eligible, required to maintain currency but that’s it.

3. Voluntary Permanent LoA, age 62+ paid 50 hours until age 65, retain all benefits and 401k, etc as above, remaining sick deposited into HSA.

Something United nor Delta has been closed to match yet.
 
11C
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 10:00 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Yet AA, DL and others are not taking the same action or don’t appear to be


You don't know what AA and DL are planning. You may have seen a few elements of what they've announced. Payroll Support Program monies will not support any carrier deep into the 4th Quarter. Look for layoffs by everybody - absolutely everybody.


I agree, more government money is unlikely. Furloughs will be the only option left, unless you one of those (delusional) thinking this will be short-lived.
 
727231
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:33 am

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Wed May 13, 2020 11:55 pm

It's going to be a blood bath this fall. UA is just up front prepping the workforce. AA will slice and dice after the voluntary employee separations are final. I suspect DL to do the same. Way too many employees for an industry that is forever changed (at least for the next few years) more than a Sep 11th ever did, and that is saying a lot.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Thu May 14, 2020 12:37 am

AABusDrvr wrote:
I've got several friends who are very junior pilots at American. Of course furloughs are on everyones minds, but they seem pretty sure if they furlough, it wont be a huge number, or for that long. On the pilot side, AA was apparently very understaffed before this all started. They also have the highest mandatory retirement numbers of any legacy, approaching 1000 pilots per year starting in a few years, and lasting several years. AA also was pretty proactive with offering an attractive early out program, and short term leaves.

Over 700 of their pilots took the early retirement package, and close to half the remaining pilots took short term leaves, and the company continues to offer short term leaves every month.


No doubt your friends are talented and respectable pilots. But American and other airlines will be furloughing large numbers of pilots for many years. Seen this before.
 
bigb
Posts: 1127
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Thu May 14, 2020 12:42 am

LCDFlight wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
I've got several friends who are very junior pilots at American. Of course furloughs are on everyones minds, but they seem pretty sure if they furlough, it wont be a huge number, or for that long. On the pilot side, AA was apparently very understaffed before this all started. They also have the highest mandatory retirement numbers of any legacy, approaching 1000 pilots per year starting in a few years, and lasting several years. AA also was pretty proactive with offering an attractive early out program, and short term leaves.

Over 700 of their pilots took the early retirement package, and close to half the remaining pilots took short term leaves, and the company continues to offer short term leaves every month.


No doubt your friends are talented and respectable pilots. But American and other airlines will be furloughing large numbers of pilots for many years. Seen this before.


I know AA will furlough, but I am thinking AAs numbers aren’t going to be as large due to their early outs, LOAs and high number retirements.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: UA planning layoffs but not AA, DL etc..?

Thu May 14, 2020 1:16 am

"Voluntary Permanent LoA, age 62+ paid 50 hours until age 65, retain all benefits and 401k, etc as above, remaining sick deposited into HSA"

That is an amazingly generous offer. Assume 1000 pilots take it, you are looking at easily $100 million per year in expenses (and thats on the low side). I'm not sure how that's going to save them money over keeping them and laying off junior employees. Your still going to need and pay Captains regardless.
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