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PepeTheFrog
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DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 12:51 pm

Statement from Ed Bastian: https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/12 ... 6106342401

The entire 777 fleet will be retired at the end of 2020. DL just pumped millions into refurbishing the fleet.
Good moaning!
 
CX747
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 12:55 pm

Tough call but international flying is going to be smaller and the 777s are older and easier to retire.

Wonder if this assists the 777P2F program? Whole bunch of 777s now available and not a lot of demand on the pax side.
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tb727
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 12:59 pm

CX747 wrote:
Tough call but international flying is going to be smaller and the 777s are older and easier to retire.

Wonder if this assists the 777P2F program? Whole bunch of 777s now available and not a lot of demand on the pax side.


Just was wondering the same thing when I saw this thread. I bet they get doors cut in them.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
fraT
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:04 pm

Of the 18 772s they have, seven were delivered in 1999, one in 2002, two in 2008, five in 2009 and two in 2010.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:05 pm

The people who've been strident here arguing 'They can't retire 764s. They can't retire 777s - they just spent $millions on refurbishment,' need to remember this moment.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:05 pm

tb727 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Tough call but international flying is going to be smaller and the 777s are older and easier to retire.

Wonder if this assists the 777P2F program? Whole bunch of 777s now available and not a lot of demand on the pax side.


Just was wondering the same thing when I saw this thread. I bet they get doors cut in them.


Delta's 777 fleet is split across two subtypes, the -200ER and -200LR. If a P2F program gets launched, would it be valid for both?
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
cokepopper
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:06 pm

So, not returning to Johannesburg for awhile? Or is the 350 capable?
 
x1234
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:07 pm

DL has said the 772 fleet has the most payload and that’s important for cargo markets like JNB and SYD. Will the a350 have enough payload?
 
TropicalSky
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:08 pm

Well guess we're gonna really see what the A350 base model is built of now.....when ATL-JNB returns everyone will see - SAD to see the LR's leave so soon but we now see where those extra 350's from LATAM will be used for(REPLACEMENTS)
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:10 pm

Does the A350 have the legs to cover the 777?
 
tphuang
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:11 pm

It does make sense in current environment to retire the aircraft with the most seat. And by the time demand comes back, they will have all the A350s and A330NEO they need to replace them. Airbus will be happy from this, since it probably means DL will take all their A350s and maybe even order more down the line. I wonder if this also helps out A330NEOs.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:13 pm

tb727 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Tough call but international flying is going to be smaller and the 777s are older and easier to retire.

Wonder if this assists the 777P2F program? Whole bunch of 777s now available and not a lot of demand on the pax side.


Just was wondering the same thing when I saw this thread. I bet they get doors cut in them.


I bet the 77E are cut up.

The 77L’a are an interesting situation. The P2F program seems focused on 77W models which have significantly more volume. There will be plenty from the same generation available.

It hasn’t been confirmed (to my knowledge) whether the P2F includes replacement of the floor beams or not. Without the floor beams being replaced, which is significant time and cost investment, I’m not sure it makes sense to convert 77L’s. It likely can’t support standard density for typical freighters. For the freight integrators, the extra volume of the 77W makes more sense ...
 
Superboi
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:13 pm

x1234 wrote:
DL has said the 772 fleet has the most payload and that’s important for cargo markets like JNB and SYD. Will the a350 have enough payload?



Maybe they will do Cape Town too.. :smile:
 
tommy1808
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:14 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does the A350 have the legs to cover the 777?


Range isn't the Problem, the A350 can do everything an 77E can do with ease. The 77L .... not out of JNB and not with cargo on top of passengers. Aside of doing it with a lot less fuel, even an A351 would probably fall short on that one route.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Noise
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:14 pm

WOW, that's pretty sad. I love the 777s.
 
USAirALB
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:14 pm

Very interesting, especially considering the amount of money that they have bee pouring into them within the last year or so regarding refurbs. I'm surprised, but I guess I shouldn't be. Like the AA A330 fleet, it is essentially a relatively small fleet in comparison to the other widebody aircraft they operate and it might not make sense to go forward with the 777s from an economies of scale perspective.

I do wonder if they will come back and regret this in a few years once demand fully recovers and traffic resumes.
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ERAUMBA
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:14 pm

More fleet retirements are coming; the CVG pilot Base is closing, and, the displacement/surplus bid comes out today, too. Interesting times.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the A350 flying to JNB....just trying to keep domestic flying funded and staffed is a challenge these days. Who cares about JNB?
 
panamair
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:17 pm

tphuang wrote:
It does make sense in current environment to retire the aircraft with the most seat.


The Delta A350 actually has more total seats currently than the 777s (306 vs 288). Sad to see the 777s go, from a pax perspective, IMO post-refurbishment, they are the most comfortable Delta widebody out there.
 
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scbriml
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:17 pm

CX747 wrote:
Tough call but international flying is going to be smaller and the 777s are older and easier to retire.


In the current circumstances, retiring the 777s makes sense. Even more so when DL already has their perfect replacement already in the fleet.

MIflyer12 wrote:
The people who've been strident here arguing 'They can't retire 764s. They can't retire 777s - they just spent $millions on refurbishment,' need to remember this moment.


To be fair, nobody could foresee where we’ve ended up today. But yes, best not to speak in absolutes like “American will never buy another Airbus because of AA587” or “American Airlines will never make another loss” (not picking on AA.)

cokepopper wrote:
So, not returning to Johannesburg for awhile? Or is the 350 capable?


Ha ha, I wondered how long that would take! :lol:

If the 77Ls are retired and demand is sufficient for the route to continue operating, then the A350 will be used.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
carljanderson
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:19 pm

Damn... Was looking forward to my first D1 suites which would have been to Paris last month... Oh well..
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:20 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does the A350 have the legs to cover the 777?


Range isn't the Problem, the A350 can do everything an 77E can do with ease. The 77L .... not out of JNB and not with cargo on top of passengers. Aside of doing it with a lot less fuel, even an A351 would probably fall short on that one route.

Best regards
Thomas


Thanks for the insight. The A350 should have no problem on Australia routes or ATL to Asia then?
 
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enilria
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:21 pm

Regardless of aircraft capability, just because of the decline in fleet count I expect Australia, JNB, and India won’t be back for years.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:22 pm

panamair wrote:
tphuang wrote:
It does make sense in current environment to retire the aircraft with the most seat.


The Delta A350 actually has more total seats currently than the 777s (306 vs 288). Sad to see the 777s go, from a pax perspective, IMO post-refurbishment, they are the most comfortable Delta widebody out there.


My bad. Well, I guess it just made sense to not have 2 types that have similar range and seat count.
 
SELMER40
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:27 pm

CX747 wrote:
... whether the P2F includes replacement of the floor beams or not. Without the floor beams being replaced, which is significant time and cost investment, I’m not sure it makes sense to convert 77L’s. It likely can’t support standard density for typical freighters.

Would they work for FedEx as is?
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:28 pm

enilria wrote:
Regardless of aircraft capability, just because of the decline in fleet count I expect Australia, JNB, and India won’t be back for years.


Do you think the same stands for UA’s routes?
 
TropicalSky
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:28 pm

This is the sad part....a lot of routes won't return

enilria wrote:
Regardless of aircraft capability, just because of the decline in fleet count I expect Australia, JNB, and India won’t be back for years.
 
Pontius
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The people who've been strident here arguing 'They can't retire 764s. They can't retire 777s - they just spent $millions on refurbishment,' need to remember this moment.


Yes! Such a poor argument. Must remember this fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost
 
ZRHYYZ773ER
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:37 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Statement from Ed Bastian: https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/12 ... 6106342401

The entire 777 fleet will be retired at the end of 2020. DL just pumped millions into refurbishing the fleet.



what about the JNB and SYD services? no other plane in the fleet can do these routes?
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MrHMSH
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:37 pm

The question on everyone's lips... can the A359 make it both ways from LAX-SYD with good cargo and passenger loads? If the answer is yes then a few people are going to be screaming into their pillows when it's announced.
 
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MrBren
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:38 pm

That's excellent news. 777s are too noisy and too thirsty.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:39 pm

enilria wrote:
Regardless of aircraft capability, just because of the decline in fleet count I expect Australia, JNB, and India won’t be back for years.


They're on the hook for buying four used LATAM A350s, ten A350s that LATAM had on order, and the ten A350s that DL deferred to 2025-26.

If Virgin Australia survives and maintains its JV with Delta, DL will very likely keep flying to SYD. I'm not so confident about JNB or anything in India.

ATL-PVG is farther than LAX-SYD. Is ATL-PVG 'easier' due to typical winds or available diversion points?
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Thu May 14, 2020 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:40 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
This is the sad part....a lot of routes won't return

enilria wrote:
Regardless of aircraft capability, just because of the decline in fleet count I expect Australia, JNB, and India won’t be back for years.

Worrying about any of that really is a moot point right now, they'll be happy to even be in a position to thing about flying these routes again in a few years.

We are in the very uncharted times in the world. The airline industry we knew 3 months ago is dead.
In many ways the world we knew 3 months ago is dead and we are facing a global reboot that we've never done before in the years ahead.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:41 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
More fleet retirements are coming; the CVG pilot Base is closing, and, the displacement/surplus bid comes out today, too.



When is it slated to close? Any rough idea on how many pilots are based there? Displacement numbers will be interesting for sure.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
KFTG
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:41 pm

Even the Etihad 77Ls did not escape the scrap man.
 
acavpics
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:42 pm

I understand them retiring the ER's. But, Why the LR's though? Those are barely a decade old.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:42 pm

ZRHYYZ773ER wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Statement from Ed Bastian: https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/12 ... 6106342401

The entire 777 fleet will be retired at the end of 2020. DL just pumped millions into refurbishing the fleet.



what about the JNB and SYD services? no other plane in the fleet can do these routes?


The A350 will have no problem operating the LAX-SYD sector. ATL-JNB probably ok too.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:43 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does the A350 have the legs to cover the 777?


Range isn't the Problem, the A350 can do everything an 77E can do with ease. The 77L .... not out of JNB and not with cargo on top of passengers. Aside of doing it with a lot less fuel, even an A351 would probably fall short on that one route.

Best regards
Thomas


Thanks for the insight. The A350 should have no problem on Australia routes or ATL to Asia then?


Here is your problem. The 77L into sydney could carry a hell of a lot more cargo, year round than the old 744.
It's range was never needed and DL never installed for the longer range fuel tanks, but it did mean it could carry
more freight which was an important part of the profit equation. And when I say more I don't mean just a little more,
we're talking multiple times more and no need for weight restrictions pretty much ever. JNB is well documented that
the airports altitude needed the extra performance.

I am surprised the older 767s didn't go first.
 
Ryefly
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:44 pm

They should trade with American. Delta 777's for American's A330 fleet.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:46 pm

acavpics wrote:
I understand them retiring the ER's. But, Why the LR's though? Those are barely a decade old.


Not worth keeping a sub fleet that small. The A350s can cover the 777LR routes and perhaps more efficiently.
 
Fuling
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:46 pm

Super sad to see the 777 leave. Hope (but not holding my breath) the -200LR's find a new home.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does the A350 have the legs to cover the 777?


Range isn't the Problem, the A350 can do everything an 77E can do with ease. The 77L .... not out of JNB and not with cargo on top of passengers. Aside of doing it with a lot less fuel, even an A351 would probably fall short on that one route.

Best regards
Thomas


Thanks for the insight. The A350 should have no problem on Australia routes or ATL to Asia then?


With ease. (range wise)
Last edited by Fuling on Thu May 14, 2020 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
346fetish
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:46 pm

cokepopper wrote:
So, not returning to Johannesburg for awhile? Or is the 350 capable?


359 is capable JNBATL.
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MIflyer12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:48 pm

acavpics wrote:
I understand them retiring the ER's. But, Why the LR's though? Those are barely a decade old.


Eliminating both allows draw-down of the 777 pilot group. Staffing just ten 77Ls would be pretty inefficient. It seems they are prioritizing cost savings over range/payload capability. Without knowing some very detailed numbers and accurate - ha! - projections of future loads and fares, one really can't argue this is the wrong decision.

Is there a common pilot rating for 330ceo, 330neo, and 350?
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Thu May 14, 2020 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
joeblow10
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:50 pm

Obviously - officially “listed” range is one thing and real capability is another, but Airbus puts the 359 range at 8100nm.

That covers LAX-SYD with ease. JNB on the other hand is 8450nm from ATL. Would be somewhat shocked if JNB isn’t back eventually in some form, supposedly printed money for years
 
A3501041
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:52 pm

Certainly ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD will be operated by A350 as demand comes back. Philippine Airlines fly their JFK-MNL with the 359, witch is longer than both DL routes. Other airlines operates long sectors with A350, such as SAA, SIA with the non-ULR 359, QR, so I think it’s feasible that Delta will switch to the A350 to Australia and South Africa.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:53 pm

acavpics wrote:
I understand them retiring the ER's. But, Why the LR's though? Those are barely a decade old.


Same reason. Unexpected low demand / prohibited service. A fleet of only 10 77L airplanes is not enough to justify the expert staff, pilots, etc and not enough to run an efficient schedule for the aircraft. The ten 77L were bought assuming they can work together with DL's existing 8 777s as a fleet. They do not work on their own, and the scenario of keeping 777 fleet for the next 5-10 years is suddenly even worse than the scenario of letting the fleet go. The management is looking at these major decisions as fast as they can.
 
baje427
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:53 pm

Anything is fair play at this point airlines are going to do what they need to survive. I do wonder though if by some miracle demand bounces back quicker than expected what will happen.
 
randomdude83
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:54 pm

So what happens to the refurbished brand new delta one seats? do they get relocated to perhaps newer a350 or a330?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:55 pm

Sad, but a good business decision. It will take too many years for widebody demand to return.


hOMSaR wrote:
tb727 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Tough call but international flying is going to be smaller and the 777s are older and easier to retire.

Wonder if this assists the 777P2F program? Whole bunch of 777s now available and not a lot of demand on the pax side.


Just was wondering the same thing when I saw this thread. I bet they get doors cut in them.


Delta's 777 fleet is split across two subtypes, the -200ER and -200LR. If a P2F program gets launched, would it be valid for both?

No. The wingbox and wing structure is different enough as well as some aft structure (to better accommodate crew rests). Now, most of the work can be recycled.

The 777-300ERSF work could be quickly translated to a 7777-200LRSF. With so much stock, I'm not sure how much demand for a 777-200ERSF there is. Note: this is based on my belief that there will be plenty of 777-300ER/-200LR and A333 stock available for the next 5 to 7 years.

Actually, I expect this downturn to force EK to downgauge so much that we'll see:
A380 to 779, not all, but 40+
77W to A359 or 787-10.
And some to FlyDubai -8 MAX and if FlyDubai orders A223s, I will not be too surprised.

So this opens up P2F, BCF, and SF stock.
However, freight airlines are cheap. This is a matter I very much hope to be proven wrong as IAI could do an -200ER conversion with a say 2025 EIS if they jump on the -200LR immediately (which they should).

But who will fund? GECAS has motivation on the -300ER and -200ER conversions. I see them stalling the -200ER conversion.

I do expect the -300ER and -200LR conversion rates to be accelerated as soon as the conversion is certified.

Current EIS is 2022 for 777-300ERSF:

https://www.iai.co.il/p/777-300ersf



Lightsaber
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ethernal
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:55 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
So what happens to the refurbished brand new delta one seats? do they get relocated to perhaps newer a350 or a330?


I believe the 777 seats are slightly wider than the A350 (and certainly A330) seats so they will likely have to be scrapped unless someone is able to do some seat surgery. Possibly some of the mechanicals can be reused but I am not a seat expert.

At the end of the day, the is cash already spent on the refurbs, and in this environment, cash means everything. So it is a sunk cost that means nothing to Delta.
 
Triple7Lr
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 1:57 pm

MrBren wrote:
That's excellent news. 777s are too noisy and too thirsty.


To Noisy?? They sound beautiful :box:
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