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jbs2886
Posts: 2417
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 3:49 pm

lightsaber wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
SLCUT2777 wrote:
Predicting DL will retire all Boeing aircraft and be strictly an Airbus user by 2025-29


I know this is the dream of so many fans but I predict you are wrong. Delta won't ignore the ultra cheap MAX deal and I assure you that some sort of mix of Boeing 787/767-NG/757-MG/MOM/NMA will find its way to Delta. They have zero interest in not being able to play A and B off of each other.

I do not expect every 767 to be retired nor the 739ERs. There is no chance the 739s will not ne flying 15 years from now at DL.

I expect on the other side DL to negotiate a brutal MAX deal and Boeing to offer a 787 deal. Perhaps an early announcement, but no money Changing hands for a while and no deliveries until DL is ready.

I do personally believe DL is now done with the 777. :cry:

Do we have a last 77E and 77L flight schedule. If DL doesn't offer a retirement plan, the cascade will be brutal.

Lightsaber


Agree completely. DL will probably negotiate a huge deal with Boeing allowing them to get MAXs and 787s on order with flexible delivery dates at very low costs. Boeing needs a big win and DL is a shrewd negotiator.
 
x1234
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 3:49 pm

With SAA operating JNB-JFK on the A359 I have more faith in the aircraft to fly to ATL. Can the A359 make JNB-ATL with a good payload and cargo? I've heard JNB prints money like gold since DL right now has no competition to Africa non-stop (SAA is in dire straights and stopped flying).
 
mxaxai
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 3:50 pm

nicode wrote:
So DL will have an only Airbuses widebodies fleet.

Conveniently ignoring the large 767 fleet? DL would have to give up many TATL destinations without a small widebody.
 
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Narfish641
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 3:55 pm

Sucks big time that Delta is retiring the 777s at the end of the year. But it's understandable why they need to do with the pandemic still wrecking havoc in the aviation industry. This really shocked me when I heard the news. I hope they find new homes. Perhaps FedEx could be interested in those 10 LR variants? :scratchchin:
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Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 3:59 pm

mxaxai wrote:
nicode wrote:
So DL will have an only Airbuses widebodies fleet.

Conveniently ignoring the large 767 fleet? DL would have to give up many TATL destinations without a small widebody.


They are likely to stop retrofitting some of the 763ERs with the new Delta One and Premium Select, but older ones have been getting phased out incrementally. and yes it has always been the perfect plane for routes like ATL-STR. Just there isn't enough A330s on-property to really cut it out, not to say it's impossible but the Europe footprint really has to shrink a lot if they want to cut that plane out too.
 
United857
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:02 pm

x1234 wrote:
With SAA operating JNB-JFK on the A359 I have more faith in the aircraft to fly to ATL. Can the A359 make JNB-ATL with a good payload and cargo? I've heard JNB prints money like gold since DL right now has no competition to Africa non-stop (SAA is in dire straights and stopped flying).


Problem is if you check the great circle routing on gcmap.com, JNB-ATL is 470nm longer than JNB-JFK, basically an hour of extra flying when you account for the headwind on the westbound leg. This last hour of additional fuel is the most costly to carry, as you will need to burn additional fuel for the first 16 hours of flight simply to carry this fuel for the 17th hour of flight. This could be the difference between JNB-JFK working with minimal payload restrictions and JNB-ATL being challenged.
Last edited by United857 on Thu May 14, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 E145 E75S E75L E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
TonyClifton
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:04 pm

Lootess wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
nicode wrote:
So DL will have an only Airbuses widebodies fleet.

Conveniently ignoring the large 767 fleet? DL would have to give up many TATL destinations without a small widebody.


They are likely to stop retrofitting some of the 763ERs with the new Delta One and Premium Select, but older ones have been getting phased out incrementally. and yes it has always been the perfect plane for routes like ATL-STR. Just there isn't enough A330s on-property to really cut it out, not to say it's impossible but the Europe footprint really has to shrink a lot if they want to cut that plane out too.

Europe footprint has shrunk a lot, and won’t be back for years. I’d say it’s totally possible to cut aircraft and rebuild with new devlieries (330neo, etc). I’d expect the parked 330s to come back over the parked 763s.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:07 pm

United857 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
With SAA operating JNB-JFK on the A359 I have more faith in the aircraft to fly to ATL. Can the A359 make JNB-ATL with a good payload and cargo? I've heard JNB prints money like gold since DL right now has no competition to Africa non-stop (SAA is in dire straights and stopped flying).


Problem is if you check the great circle routing on gcmap.com, JNB-ATL is 470nm longer than JNB-JFK, basically an hour of extra flying when you account for the headwind on the westbound leg. This last hour of additional fuel is the most costly to carry, as you will need to carry/burn additional fuel for the first 16 hours of flight simply to have this fuel available during the 17th hour of flight.

Can we just appreciate the brute beast of an aircraft the 77L was, its payload range is unparalleled. Its an ode to the 350's and even the 78's that we have something that come close to the beast it was. All things must come to an end :(
 
NLINK
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:09 pm

It really makes sense as they can eliminate a whole type, which the 767. fleet is to large to do that. It also gets rid of two odd ball engines in the WB fleet. This should bring DL to a total of 4 engine types for WB with a couple variants of a couple of them.
 
reltney
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The people who've been strident here arguing 'They can't retire 764s. They can't retire 777s - they just spent $millions on refurbishment,' need to remember this moment.


Looks like you were wrong.... I’ll remember this moment..

Keep in the 767-400, 767-300, 757-200/300s . The 767 might be cut in 1/2. 777s were always suspect. The 350 failure when put in service with Delta made the airline rethink the early 777 retirement. With the recent modifications, it almost replaces the 777....deltas words, not mine. I think the airline knows airplanes better then the armchair pilots and CEOs on airliners.net....

Banda bing..
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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ethernal
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:11 pm

United857 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
With SAA operating JNB-JFK on the A359 I have more faith in the aircraft to fly to ATL. Can the A359 make JNB-ATL with a good payload and cargo? I've heard JNB prints money like gold since DL right now has no competition to Africa non-stop (SAA is in dire straights and stopped flying).


Problem is if you check the great circle routing on gcmap.com, JNB-ATL is 470nm longer than JNB-JFK, basically an hour of extra flying when you account for the headwind on the westbound leg. This last hour of additional fuel is the most costly to carry, as you will need to burn additional fuel for the first 16 hours of flight simply to carry this fuel for the 17th hour of flight. This could be the difference between JNB-JFK working with minimal payload restrictions and JNB-ATL being challenged.


Agreed that ATL-JNB on an A359 would be highly challenged. On the flip side, if SAA can reliably make it work to JFK, it's worth noting that Delta's A359s have 30 fewer seats than SAA's. That's 7000+ pounds less passenger and luggage payload unless the SAA is flying the route with blocked seats.
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:11 pm

Given everyone expects leisure to return before tourism, isn't it a bit surprising to retire the long haul fleet with the fewest premium seats? I guess the overall seat count weighs against the 777s when compared to the 767 fleet? And the A350s are newer and overall more efficient.
 
ikramerica
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:12 pm

deltairlines wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Considering the original 777 has been flying my entire adult life, it’s not surprising the retirement would be accelerated.

The 77L was bought for specific missions at DL that other more efficient aircraft can now cover.

As a passenger, I’ve never liked DLs 777 product. So won’t miss it.


The Delta One suites on the 777 was the best product they had - better than the A350. Slightly wider suite, overhead bins for everyone, gaspers for all suites (which don't exist in the middle suites on the A350 since there is no overhead bin).

Do they have a newer one-suite product or still the original 77L product. I was on the original 77L product when it was brand new and found it cramped and uncomfortable even on a transcon day flight.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Austin787
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:13 pm

Articuno wrote:
Ryefly wrote:
They should trade with American. Delta 777's for American's A330 fleet.

Exactly! The 777 and the A332 are the smallest widebody fleets of DL and AA, respectively, and the A332s won’t be reactivated by AA for a while.

If they trade, DL will operate A330s with all four engine types. Meanwhile, the 8 RR-powered 772ERs fit perfectly into AA’s 772ER fleet, and the 77Ls are of the same generation/family as AA’s 77Ws.

Makes sense in better economic times, but probably not practical in today's environment. AA and DL are reducing their widebody fleets in response to reduced international demand. And they would need to spend money to reconfigure the planes - no need for more expenses when they are trying to reduce cash burn.
 
NLINK
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:17 pm

When this is all said and done you can count on Delta right sizing to around 1110 to 120 or so wide bodies. The 767 PW birds will more than likely be next and a handful of the oldest 767 GE birds.
 
Detroit313
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:17 pm

The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.
Last edited by Detroit313 on Thu May 14, 2020 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:21 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.

I’m fairly confident DLs fleet planners have an idea of what their aircraft and do, and what they need them to do.
 
LHA320
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:24 pm

NLINK wrote:
It really makes sense as they can eliminate a whole type, which the 767. fleet is to large to do that. It also gets rid of two odd ball engines in the WB fleet. This should bring DL to a total of 4 engine types for WB with a couple variants of a couple of them.


PW 4060
PW 4168
GE CF6
RR Trent

True, makes sense in that perspective too. Don't know how much difference there is between the CF6 on 763, 762 and A333.
The 772ER featured the Trent too, so technically they only get rid of one odd ball engine. The GE90
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Ziyulu
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:25 pm

I'm sad. That's the end of the most comfortable configuration of 3-3-3 seating for North America.
 
airzona11
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:26 pm

Shame to see this happen. Those planes have useful lives. I for one think we are going to see a the economic conditions recover to the point where someone takes these planes.

SLCUT2777 wrote:
Predicting DL will retire all Boeing aircraft and be strictly an Airbus user by 2025-29


What is the basis of that prediction? What replaces 767? 738/9? 757? Unless they plan on reducing their size by 50%, that is not happening.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:27 pm

Austin787 wrote:
Articuno wrote:
Ryefly wrote:
They should trade with American. Delta 777's for American's A330 fleet.

Exactly! The 777 and the A332 are the smallest widebody fleets of DL and AA, respectively, and the A332s won’t be reactivated by AA for a while.

If they trade, DL will operate A330s with all four engine types. Meanwhile, the 8 RR-powered 772ERs fit perfectly into AA’s 772ER fleet, and the 77Ls are of the same generation/family as AA’s 77Ws.

Makes sense in better economic times, but probably not practical in today's environment. AA and DL are reducing their widebody fleets in response to reduced international demand. And they would need to spend money to reconfigure the planes - no need for more expenses when they are trying to reduce cash burn.

Yes, some people here don’t seem to be getting that it is reduced demand driving these fleet cuts, not sudden desire to simplify fleet (that is just a by product of the effects of the reduced demand). Delta is going to be slashing a ton of routes, it’s not like in summer 2021 they will be running their summer 2019 schedule except with A330s and A350s replacing 767s and 777s.

Delta can figure later how to make routes like JNB-ATL work. And who knows, maybe it will be years before Delta is flying it again. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a highly profitable route or two for the greater good.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:32 pm

This does not bode well for the 777X. Not just at Delta but any airline in the post-COVID world.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:35 pm

The higher gross weight 359 should be able to do JNB profitably but the hot/high conditions of JNB incur enough penalties that the standard ones would be unlikely to turn a profit.

Given current conditions, I wouldn't expect JNB to be back on the schedule for at least a year. DL's focus is limiting cash burn and rebuilding a smaller route network that is set up for the demand which is there. The uber long routes to non-JV cities will be off the menu for some time.
 
deltairlines
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:37 pm

ikramerica wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Considering the original 777 has been flying my entire adult life, it’s not surprising the retirement would be accelerated.

The 77L was bought for specific missions at DL that other more efficient aircraft can now cover.

As a passenger, I’ve never liked DLs 777 product. So won’t miss it.


The Delta One suites on the 777 was the best product they had - better than the A350. Slightly wider suite, overhead bins for everyone, gaspers for all suites (which don't exist in the middle suites on the A350 since there is no overhead bin).

Do they have a newer one-suite product or still the original 77L product. I was on the original 77L product when it was brand new and found it cramped and uncomfortable even on a transcon day flight.


New product was put in over the past year on the 777. I'll agree with you on the original 77L product - I've been in that seat across the Pacific and between ATL-LAX a lot over the years (not to mention a couple of OpUps to Brazil) - no real space to put anything, no real way to look out the windows.
 
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Revelation
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:37 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.

DL has A350s rolling in thick and fast. They are more than a match for 77E. 77L is a special case, one DL won't worry about for at least a year or two.
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:46 pm

The 777 has had a strange past with Delta. In the late-1990's Delta had hoped to replace both the MD-11 and L-1011-500 fleets in their entirety with the B77E's. However, due to contract issues with the pilot's, they only took 7 B77E's in 1999 and an 8th in 2002. This RR Trent-powered, B77E subfleet is still at the same number today.

Wanting a greater presence in the TPAC market, Delta's B77L fleet of 10 planes were added in 2008 & 9 just as the Great Recession was raging and before the bankruptcy and eventual merger with NW. This GE90-powered B77L fleet has not changed since.

The cost of keeping up two different engines for a B777 fleet of just 18 aircraft must be high. Also, keeping the pilot & crew pools, simulators & ops/training program for such a small subfleet has to be expensive, too. The B777 fleet's days were numbered when Delta ordered the A359's several years ago.
 
FSDan
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:52 pm

While sad, this decision makes sense. In the ~290 seat capacity category, DL has 333s and 339s that should be able to cover everything the 77Es have been flying, with better fuel efficiency. The 77Ls flew some unique long range routes, but I do think DL will probably be able to replace most of them with 359s as demand returns.

The 77L routes that were planned for S20 pre-COVID-19:
  • LAX-PVG - easily covered by 359
  • LAX-SYD - as others have mentioned, DL's newer, higher-MTOW 359s could probably cover this sufficiently if needed
  • ATL-JNB - if I were in DL Network Planning, I'd be looking to move this to JFK-JNB when demand picks up (shorter route, competition from SA should be gone, likely a larger local market, should still able to cover the lion's share of connecting traffic from large U.S. markets)
  • ATL-PVG - I think this one's gone longer term - ATL doesn't need a link to China right now
  • JFK-BOM - I think the newer, higher-MTOW 359s could probably cover this if needed
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Sooner787
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:54 pm

Ryefly wrote:
They should trade with American. Delta 777's for American's A330 fleet.


That would be a great idea if AA/DL could put together such a deal :)
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:54 pm

Polot wrote:
Yes, some people here don’t seem to be getting that it is reduced demand driving these fleet cuts, not sudden desire to simplify fleet (that is just a by product of the effects of the reduced demand). Delta is going to be slashing a ton of routes, it’s not like in summer 2021 they will be running their summer 2019 schedule except with A330s and A350s replacing 767s and 777s.

Delta can figure later how to make routes like JNB-ATL work. And who knows, maybe it will be years before Delta is flying it again. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a highly profitable route or two for the greater good.


Mainly right. What would AA even do with 77Ls anyway if they cannot reassign A332s as it already stands? Yes, smaller gauge, fewer routes, fewer frequencies. And fewer airlines if it really gets hairy.

As for JNB, I think this thread can stop pearl clutching that one. The existing 359s can handle that more or less. I do not see how an aircraft with significantly lower operating cost needs to worry about that last extra ton of cargo. But if they really did, the upgrade to the -ULR is not hard to accomplish. Especially on deferred planes yet to be delivered.
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:55 pm

I still think JFK-BOM could come back (but also might not). Main reason I think it could come back because fuel will be cheap for a while (And fuel costs really affect such a long flight). Traffic between India and US is higher than people think. Main issue is that US airlines captured too small a share (even the premium group). A change with Covid which might really help Delta on a nonstop would be both Americans and Indians wanting to avoid stops in third countries. This is all tbd and could go any way, but I could totally see people wanting to just get to india and avoid the ME or EU or North Asia. A reason why it might not come back is Delta might want as much US-India traffic to flow through the EU to help US-EU frequency (which is the balance US carriers have always struggled with when it comes to India - UA moved away from the EU strategy the most of the three). Let’s see.
 
AIRTRANSAT767
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 4:59 pm

I find it a pity that there will be more B777 for Delta !! Maybe Delta will become the first American company to be 100% Airbus ??
i love air transat and fan all boeing
 
Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:00 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
The 777 has had a strange past with Delta. In the late-1990's Delta had hoped to replace both the MD-11 and L-1011-500 fleets in their entirety with the B77E's. However, due to contract issues with the pilot's, they only took 7 B77E's in 1999 and an 8th in 2002. This RR Trent-powered, B77E subfleet is still at the same number today.

Wanting a greater presence in the TPAC market, Delta's B77L fleet of 10 planes were added in 2008 & 9 just as the Great Recession was raging and before the bankruptcy and eventual merger with NW. This GE90-powered B77L fleet has not changed since.

The cost of keeping up two different engines for a B777 fleet of just 18 aircraft must be high. Also, keeping the pilot & crew pools, simulators & ops/training program for such a small subfleet has to be expensive, too. The B777 fleet's days were numbered when Delta ordered the A359's several years ago.


Delta wasn't kidding when they named the A350 as the new flagship.

Sure ATL-JNB is a special case but saving a fleet for one route isn't necessary either. Many forget JNB existed on 764 with the DKR stopover before 77L came on-property.
 
ethernal
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:03 pm

AIRTRANSAT767 wrote:
I find it a pity that there will be more B777 for Delta !! Maybe Delta will become the first American company to be 100% Airbus ??


Spirit (and sort of jetBlue): Am I a joke to you?

Assuming Delta is still an airline as know it after this, that is highly unlikely. Delta is an opportunistic buyer and Boeing will eventually offer them a deal they can't say no to. The current 739 fleet (which Delta loves) will be around for at least 20 years. They only finished delivery on them a year or two ago.
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:05 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Ryefly wrote:
They should trade with American. Delta 777's for American's A330 fleet.


That would be a great idea if AA/DL could put together such a deal :)


No, it wouldn't.

DL and AA are both reducing capacity expecting a large downturn in traffic. Trading aircraft doesn't achieve that end. DL and AA aren't getting rid of aircraft for the sake of doing so - they're getting rid of them because they no longer need them.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.

DL has A350s rolling in thick and fast. They are more than a match for 77E. 77L is a special case, one DL won't worry about for at least a year or two.

Not to mention neither UA nor AA has any 77Ls or 778Xs on order to cover said "very long routes".
 
Varsity1
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:12 pm

AIRTRANSAT767 wrote:
I find it a pity that there will be more B777 for Delta !! Maybe Delta will become the first American company to be 100% Airbus ??


Like Spirit, allegiant and Frontier..?
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UA444
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Sad, but a good business decision. It will take too many years for widebody demand to return.


hOMSaR wrote:
tb727 wrote:

Just was wondering the same thing when I saw this thread. I bet they get doors cut in them.


Delta's 777 fleet is split across two subtypes, the -200ER and -200LR. If a P2F program gets launched, would it be valid for both?

No. The wingbox and wing structure is different enough as well as some aft structure (to better accommodate crew rests). Now, most of the work can be recycled.

The 777-300ERSF work could be quickly translated to a 7777-200LRSF. With so much stock, I'm not sure how much demand for a 777-200ERSF there is. Note: this is based on my belief that there will be plenty of 777-300ER/-200LR and A333 stock available for the next 5 to 7 years.

Actually, I expect this downturn to force EK to downgauge so much that we'll see:
A380 to 779, not all, but 40+
77W to A359 or 787-10.
And some to FlyDubai -8 MAX and if FlyDubai orders A223s, I will not be too surprised.

So this opens up P2F, BCF, and SF stock.
However, freight airlines are cheap. This is a matter I very much hope to be proven wrong as IAI could do an -200ER conversion with a say 2025 EIS if they jump on the -200LR immediately (which they should).

But who will fund? GECAS has motivation on the -300ER and -200ER conversions. I see them stalling the -200ER conversion.

I do expect the -300ER and -200LR conversion rates to be accelerated as soon as the conversion is certified.

Current EIS is 2022 for 777-300ERSF:

https://www.iai.co.il/p/777-300ersf



Lightsaber

PW and RR should look into converting 777-200ERs since those two stand to lose the last 777s that have their engines if they don’t have a second life.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4330
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:14 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.

I’m fairly confident DLs fleet planners have an idea of what their aircraft and do, and what they need them to do.


But DL's fleet planners may not see a need to do everything they were doing in 2019.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
behramjee
Posts: 5106
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:16 pm

x1234 wrote:
With SAA operating JNB-JFK on the A359 I have more faith in the aircraft to fly to ATL. Can the A359 make JNB-ATL with a good payload and cargo? I've heard JNB prints money like gold since DL right now has no competition to Africa non-stop (SAA is in dire straights and stopped flying).


Hello...please note the following:

i. JNB-JFK is 50 minutes shorter flying time versus JNB-ATL

ii. JNB-JFK nonstop on SA A359s did have "minor" payload issues departing JNB

iii. CPT-JFK is approximately 20 minutes shorter than JNB-JFK and departing from Cape Town airport will see no payload issues due to altitude which JNB has unfortunately

iv. CPT-JFK block time is approximately 35 minutes less than CPT-ATL
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3150
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:17 pm

LHA320 wrote:
NLINK wrote:
It really makes sense as they can eliminate a whole type, which the 767. fleet is to large to do that. It also gets rid of two odd ball engines in the WB fleet. This should bring DL to a total of 4 engine types for WB with a couple variants of a couple of them.


PW 4060
PW 4168
GE CF6
RR Trent

True, makes sense in that perspective too. Don't know how much difference there is between the CF6 on 763, 762 and A333.
The 772ER featured the Trent too, so technically they only get rid of one odd ball engine. The GE90

The two PW 4000 models are pretty similar I think. About as much as the CF6 models.

The RR Trents are another story. Right now with the 777, A330Neo, A350 we have three different Trent products. We have never worked the 777 model in house. Another hit against the 777. The A330Neo version is a close cousin to the 787 motor and the A350 is quite a bit different from those two. All three of those models are in house or are on the plan to come in soon.

Retiring the 777 gets the only two engines out of the fleet that does not get worked on at Delta. Less outside work.
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4355
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:24 pm

Some of the drama in this thread sure is entertaining.

ERAUMBA wrote:
I wouldn’t worry too much about the A350 flying to JNB....just trying to keep domestic flying funded and staffed is a challenge these days. Who cares about JNB?


My godfather flew into JNB with Delta in late February and has been stuck there ever since. I'm guessing he would care.

Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.


Citation required.

Detroit313 wrote:
United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.


Lol.

Ziyulu wrote:
I'm sad. That's the end of the most comfortable configuration of 3-3-3 seating for North America.


Yeah it's a real shame from that perspective. At least they've still got lots of 767s and 330s with comfortable Configs.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Cdydatzigs
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:33 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
MrBren wrote:
That's excellent news. 777s are too noisy and too thirsty.

One day, when everything is so quiet that you can hear the hair in your ears grow, you'll be missing the "noisy" airplanes.


Not really. I don't miss Stage 2 takeoffs and I won't miss these.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9809
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:53 pm

ER 8

1999
N860DA
N861DA
N862DA
N863DA
N864DA
N865DA
N866DA

2002
N867DA

LR 10
2008
N701DN
N702DN

2009
N703DN
N704DK
N705DN
N706DN
N707DN
N708DN

2010
N709DN
N710DN

Given their age, I agree that the ER are toast, wonder if any of the LR will find new homes.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:57 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.

I’m fairly confident DLs fleet planners have an idea of what their aircraft and do, and what they need them to do.


But DL's fleet planners may not see a need to do everything they were doing in 2019.

Correct. So the 772 range might not be a factor. They see the 359 as able to handle whatever the new plan is.
 
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OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4788
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 5:58 pm

I'm seeing a lot of people proposing that DL should make a trade with AA? Why? These aircraft are being removed from the fleet because there are replacements on order. DL isn't looking to grow the fleet right now, and neither is AA.

TonyClifton wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.

I’m fairly confident DLs fleet planners have an idea of what their aircraft and do, and what they need them to do.


Exactly. The 330s are lighter and therefore more efficient than the 777. They are perfect for Europe. And the A350 can certainly do what the 777 does. The A350 is incapable talking point has been proven wrong time and again by actual airline operations. Besides, those ultra long haul flights are going to be the last to return given just how expensive they are to operate. I don't think DL is losing much sleep over this decision.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:00 pm

Lootess wrote:
They are likely to stop retrofitting some of the 763ERs with the new Delta One and Premium Select, but older ones have been getting phased out incrementally. and yes it has always been the perfect plane for routes like ATL-STR. Just there isn't enough A330s on-property to really cut it out, not to say it's impossible but the Europe footprint really has to shrink a lot if they want to cut that plane out too.

Exactly. And it's not just unusual routes like ATL-STR. LHR is mostly (only?) served by 767. Germany, Switzerland, Belgium (except FRA) is only served by 767. Plus, the 767-300ER still has lower trip costs than the A339; its CASM is higher but that doesn't matter when there's no demand.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10177
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:08 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
The 350 and 330 cannot do what the 777 can.

United and American Airlines will have a competitive advantage when it comes to very long routes with their 777s and 787s.


Right. Those folks at what is arguably the best run airline in the U.S. have no clue what they are doing :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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usdcaguy
Posts: 1538
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:20 pm

Does anyone know if the 777s are bought or leased? I'm thinking some carriers would love to pick up a few 777s on the cheap if they're willing to wait a while until demand returns.
 
LightChop2Chop
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:31 pm

My bet. with SAAs collapse, DL moves ATL JNB to JFK JNB and put a 350 on it. JFK is closer to JNB than ATL and SAA was already doing it with a 350. No reason DL couldn't.
 
User avatar
VCVSpotter
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:35 pm

Any idea what the retirement/storage schedule looks like for the remaining 777s (for those that aren’t currently stored) and where they’d end up? The memo said that they’d be retired by the end of the year, anyone know if that would be a gradual reduction or a mass retirement similar to what happened to the Mad Dogs over at AA? Thanks in advance :)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
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