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redzeppelin
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:35 pm

It's good to read the full document from the OP's link. There are some good numbers in there that explain the harsh reality of the situation:
"Our principal financial goal for 2020 is to reduce our cash burn to zero by the end of the year... Delta is currently burning about $50 million every day, and steps like this help us stem the bleeding... Delta has refunded more than $1.2 billion to our customers since the pandemic began..."


When they are losing $50M per day, the mere millions spent on recent cabin updates are easy to write-off if it helps to stop the bleeding. The cost of maintaining the fleet until demand returns is likely to be much more than the money lost on the cabin refurbishment.

As for the 767s, I think they are becoming more valuable to keep. The flexibility to deploy a smaller widebody with low ownership cost will be important while travel demand (and oil prices) remains low. If they are serious about reducing cash burn to zero, the fully-owned 767 frames make sense to keep. I seriously doubt that the whole fleet would be cut. The 777s were too big to be operated in a low-demand environment and had to be sacrificed.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:36 pm

United857 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
With SAA operating JNB-JFK on the A359 I have more faith in the aircraft to fly to ATL. Can the A359 make JNB-ATL with a good payload and cargo? I've heard JNB prints money like gold since DL right now has no competition to Africa non-stop (SAA is in dire straights and stopped flying).


Problem is if you check the great circle routing on gcmap.com, JNB-ATL is 470nm longer than JNB-JFK, basically an hour of extra flying when you account for the headwind on the westbound leg. This last hour of additional fuel is the most costly to carry, as you will need to burn additional fuel for the first 16 hours of flight simply to carry this fuel for the 17th hour of flight. This could be the difference between JNB-JFK working with minimal payload restrictions and JNB-ATL being challenged.

Minor correction: JNB-ATL is 470mi longer than JNB-JFK (8,439mi vs 7,969mi). That is 408nm (7,333nm vs 6,925nm).

reltney wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The people who've been strident here arguing 'They can't retire 764s. They can't retire 777s - they just spent $millions on refurbishment,' need to remember this moment.


Looks like you were wrong.... I’ll remember this moment..

Keep in the 767-400, 767-300, 757-200/300s . The 767 might be cut in 1/2. 777s were always suspect. The 350 failure when put in service with Delta made the airline rethink the early 777 retirement. With the recent modifications, it almost replaces the 777....deltas words, not mine. I think the airline knows airplanes better then the armchair pilots and CEOs on airliners.net....

Banda bing..

How is he wrong in saying that money recently spent on cabin refurbishments doesn’t guarantee a type won’t be retired?

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
LHA320
Posts: 123
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:39 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
NLINK wrote:
It really makes sense as they can eliminate a whole type, which the 767. fleet is to large to do that. It also gets rid of two odd ball engines in the WB fleet. This should bring DL to a total of 4 engine types for WB with a couple variants of a couple of them.


PW 4060
PW 4168
GE CF6
RR Trent

True, makes sense in that perspective too. Don't know how much difference there is between the CF6 on 763, 762 and A333.
The 772ER featured the Trent too, so technically they only get rid of one odd ball engine. The GE90

The two PW 4000 models are pretty similar I think. About as much as the CF6 models.

The RR Trents are another story. Right now with the 777, A330Neo, A350 we have three different Trent products. We have never worked the 777 model in house. Another hit against the 777. The A330Neo version is a close cousin to the 787 motor and the A350 is quite a bit different from those two. All three of those models are in house or are on the plan to come in soon.

Retiring the 777 gets the only two engines out of the fleet that does not get worked on at Delta. Less outside work.


That is good to know. Thanks for the insight, I've never been an expert on engines. I thought that at least the Trent XWB on the 350 and the Trent 7000 on the A330neo would share more than a few parts.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
LawAndOrder
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:42 pm

A few things people are considering. When syd and jnb returns I doubt it will return (atleast close in) with the same amount of demand. Thus the higher variant 350s would be enough with minimal seat caps as I doubt they would be completely full. In 2-3 years I’m sure airbus would have an even higher mtow variant that could make it more attractive. The efficiency gains would cover the cost of lost cargo. Delta will gain pilot staffing efficiency and fleet rotation efficiencies.

I am pretty sure the seats can be harvested atleast in coach. The coach seats are .1 inch narrow than the current 220 seats. Also in the 777 and 350 the D1 seats vary in width. I’m sure some can be utilized in the later 350s which would mean less future money spent on redundant seats. They most likely will be stored somewhere or in the aircraft for later use.
 
inkjet7
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:46 pm

I wonder if AF/KL will also retire their 777-200's..
 
Jetport
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
SLCUT2777 wrote:
Predicting DL will retire all Boeing aircraft and be strictly an Airbus user by 2025-29


I know this is the dream of so many fans but I predict you are wrong. Delta won't ignore the ultra cheap MAX deal and I assure you that some sort of mix of Boeing 787/767-NG/757-MG/MOM/NMA will find its way to Delta. They have zero interest in not being able to play A and B off of each other.

I do not expect every 767 to be retired nor the 739ERs. There is no chance the 739s will not ne flying 15 years from now at DL.

I expect on the other side DL to negotiate a brutal MAX deal and Boeing to offer a 787 deal. Perhaps an early announcement, but no money Changing hands for a while and no deliveries until DL is ready.

I do personally believe DL is now done with the 777. :cry:

Do we have a last 77E and 77L flight schedule. If DL doesn't offer a retirement plan, the cascade will be brutal.

Lightsaber


I agree on Delta keeping the 739's and maybe getting 787's. The only way Delta gets all their A330NEO's is with some special finance deal or some kind of make and store for 3-5 years deal from Airbus. There is no way the A330NEO will still be in production for Delta to take their entire order before the line shuts down for good.
 
ehaase
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:55 pm

Even after retiring 18 777's, will Delta need 39 359's (13 current and 26 on order) within the next 5 years?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:56 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
The 777 has had a strange past with Delta. In the late-1990's Delta had hoped to replace both the MD-11 and L-1011-500 fleets in their entirety with the B77E's. However, due to contract issues with the pilot's, they only took 7 B77E's in 1999 and an 8th in 2002. This RR Trent-powered, B77E subfleet is still at the same number today.

Wanting a greater presence in the TPAC market, Delta's B77L fleet of 10 planes were added in 2008 & 9 just as the Great Recession was raging and before the bankruptcy and eventual merger with NW. This GE90-powered B77L fleet has not changed since.

The cost of keeping up two different engines for a B777 fleet of just 18 aircraft must be high. Also, keeping the pilot & crew pools, simulators & ops/training program for such a small subfleet has to be expensive, too. The B777 fleet's days were numbered when Delta ordered the A359's several years ago.

Yeah, at a high level I've always known the 777 has had a strange history with DL, unlike where its been a backbone and mainstay of the AA and UA fleets.
Can you elaborate a bit more since I didn't follow DL as closely before the merger.
What was the driver for the initial 77E order?
What were the original plans to grow the fleet much larger?
Didn't they end up doing a lot of ATL-Florida / domestic flying in the early 2000s?
What led to the 77L order?
 
LDRA
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:57 pm

I am stunned
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 6:57 pm

ehaase wrote:
Even after retiring 18 777's, will Delta need 39 359's (13 current and 26 on order) within the next 5 years?


Probably will work out fine, especially with 767 retirements. You can expect a different delivery schedule that will more closely match anticipated recovery. That is, you rip out all the capacity now and retire aircraft, then get take your aircraft deliveries in line with expected recovery.
 
jfk777
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:01 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
I wonder if AF/KL will also retire their 777-200's..


Doubtful, Air France and KLM rely on the 777-200ER as their main long haul plane, they don't have 50 767 or 30 A330 like their American cousin from Atlanta. AF is ditching their A380 and A340's. KLM's last 747's took early retirement too, so the 777's of any variant are now their main plane to far places. AF 77W have been their main long haul plane too.
 
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AECM
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:09 pm

Anyone has an idea of the average payload Delta was flying in the ATL-JNB-ATL?
 
2175301
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:10 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Does anyone know if the 777s are bought or leased? I'm thinking some carriers would love to pick up a few 777s on the cheap if they're willing to wait a while until demand returns.


I agree with this; although it will take some time. I suspect Delta will store all of these with maintenance for future resale and reactivation (or at least certainly the LR's).
 
drdisque
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:14 pm

Couldn't a handful of the A350's on order be converted to A350ULR's to make JNB-ATL and LAX-SYD (which really isn't THAT long) no problem? No need to add a separate fleet type for those routes, after all SQ flew those things on SFO/LAX-SIN (albeit with only 161 seats). I imagine an A350ULR in something like a 250 seat arrangement could fly JNB-ATL.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:17 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
The 777 has had a strange past with Delta. In the late-1990's Delta had hoped to replace both the MD-11 and L-1011-500 fleets in their entirety with the B77E's. However, due to contract issues with the pilot's, they only took 7 B77E's in 1999 and an 8th in 2002. This RR Trent-powered, B77E subfleet is still at the same number today.

Wanting a greater presence in the TPAC market, Delta's B77L fleet of 10 planes were added in 2008 & 9 just as the Great Recession was raging and before the bankruptcy and eventual merger with NW. This GE90-powered B77L fleet has not changed since.

The cost of keeping up two different engines for a B777 fleet of just 18 aircraft must be high. Also, keeping the pilot & crew pools, simulators & ops/training program for such a small subfleet has to be expensive, too. The B777 fleet's days were numbered when Delta ordered the A359's several years ago.

Yeah, at a high level I've always known the 777 has had a strange history with DL, unlike where its been a backbone and mainstay of the AA and UA fleets.
Can you elaborate a bit more since I didn't follow DL as closely before the merger.
What was the driver for the initial 77E order?
What were the original plans to grow the fleet much larger?
Didn't they end up doing a lot of ATL-Florida / domestic flying in the early 2000s?
What led to the 77L order?


The story really goes back to DL buying the MD-11, I think. The Tristar was not a great performer ex-PDX to Asia and could not do ATL-NRT. The MD-11s could do all of the PDX TPAC flying without restrictions and could do ATL-NRT, albeit restricted. The 77E was an MD-11 replacement, but something like two thirds of the MD-11 fleet was used for PDX, so when the economy in East Asia tanked in the late 90s and DL dismantled the PDX hub, the 77E was left as somewhat of an orphan. It basically did ATL-NRT and TATL flying. Between Europe runs there was a fair amount of ATL-Florida flying, largely but not exclusively to MCO. (Keep in mind that in the early 00s, DL had a lot more capacity on ATL-Florida. ATL-JAX, for example, rarely saw anything smaller than a 752 and routinely saw widebodies.)

When DL needed more widebody range in the mid-00s, the 77L was really the only game in town. The 330 was much less capable then, and the 77Ls do have some commonality with the 77E.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Luftymatt
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:18 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Range isn't the Problem, the A350 can do everything an 77E can do with ease. The 77L .... not out of JNB and not with cargo on top of passengers. Aside of doing it with a lot less fuel, even an A351 would probably fall short on that one route.

Best regards
Thomas


Thanks for the insight. The A350 should have no problem on Australia routes or ATL to Asia then?


Here is your problem. The 77L into sydney could carry a hell of a lot more cargo, year round than the old 744.
It's range was never needed and DL never installed for the longer range fuel tanks, but it did mean it could carry
more freight which was an important part of the profit equation. And when I say more I don't mean just a little more,
we're talking multiple times more and no need for weight restrictions pretty much ever. JNB is well documented that
the airports altitude needed the extra performance.

I am surprised the older 767s didn't go first.


Agreed it would have made more sense to retire the older 767's first, especially with the higher life cycle hours on them than the 777's.
chase the sun
 
ITSTours
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 pm

JNB-ATL might have some issues with A350 due to it being hot and high. But with the new 280t MTOW I don't know until Delta proves with real flying.

On the other hand, LAX-SYD is absolutely possible. The route is even shorter than current A350 routes and none of them are high altitude. It is downright trolling saying A350 can't do it.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:22 pm

Luftymatt wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

Thanks for the insight. The A350 should have no problem on Australia routes or ATL to Asia then?


Here is your problem. The 77L into sydney could carry a hell of a lot more cargo, year round than the old 744.
It's range was never needed and DL never installed for the longer range fuel tanks, but it did mean it could carry
more freight which was an important part of the profit equation. And when I say more I don't mean just a little more,
we're talking multiple times more and no need for weight restrictions pretty much ever. JNB is well documented that
the airports altitude needed the extra performance.

I am surprised the older 767s didn't go first.


Agreed it would have made more sense to retire the older 767's first, especially with the higher life cycle hours on them than the 777's.

Removing the 777 removes an entire fleet type from the equation. Pilots, tech ops, scheduling. There’s 18 777s while over 100 combined 757/767s. Totally more sense to eliminate the odd one out, especially when 288 seats and ULH range isn’t needed for a long time.
 
United857
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:27 pm

LHA320 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
LHA320 wrote:

PW 4060
PW 4168
GE CF6
RR Trent

True, makes sense in that perspective too. Don't know how much difference there is between the CF6 on 763, 762 and A333.
The 772ER featured the Trent too, so technically they only get rid of one odd ball engine. The GE90

The two PW 4000 models are pretty similar I think. About as much as the CF6 models.

The RR Trents are another story. Right now with the 777, A330Neo, A350 we have three different Trent products. We have never worked the 777 model in house. Another hit against the 777. The A330Neo version is a close cousin to the 787 motor and the A350 is quite a bit different from those two. All three of those models are in house or are on the plan to come in soon.

Retiring the 777 gets the only two engines out of the fleet that does not get worked on at Delta. Less outside work.


That is good to know. Thanks for the insight, I've never been an expert on engines. I thought that at least the Trent XWB on the 350 and the Trent 7000 on the A330neo would share more than a few parts.

The PW4000s are actually quite different. There were 3 major variants of the PW4000, the 94 inch, 100 inch, and 112 inch fan versions. The 94 inch version was used on the A300-600/A310/747-400/767-200/767-300/MD-11 and largely interchangeable between the different aircraft by changing out the mounting brackets/accessories/thrust rating plugs. The 100 inch version was bespoke to the A330 and the 112 inch version was bespoke to the 777-200/200ER/300.

The Trent 7000 is the bleed-air version of the Trent 1000 TEN used on the 787, which in turn has a few major differences in the core with the Trent XWB. The most significant difference is the 2 stage intermediate pressure turbine on the XWB vs. a single stage on all other versions of the RB211/Trent engines.
Last edited by United857 on Thu May 14, 2020 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 E145 E75S E75L E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
ethernal
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:27 pm

redzeppelin wrote:
When they are losing $50M per day, the mere millions spent on recent cabin updates are easy to write-off if it helps to stop the bleeding. The cost of maintaining the fleet until demand returns is likely to be much more than the money lost on the cabin refurbishment.


That line of thinking misses the point entirely. When Delta says they are losing $50M a day, they mean they are losing $50M in cash per day. The writeoffs are non-cash expenses - the money was already spent when they put in the new cabins. They can't get it back (unless they can sell the planes for money with the value increased by the recent cabin mods - unlikely for many reasons, one of which is that Delta won't let another carrier reuse their cabin). No one in the C-Suite as Delta is worried about the income statement right now. The cashflow statement is what everyone is looking at. And a writedown has 0 impact on cashflow, but taking these birds out of the sky does have potential to improve cashflow.
 
SQ317
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:30 pm

drdisque wrote:
Couldn't a handful of the A350's on order be converted to A350ULR's to make JNB-ATL and LAX-SYD (which really isn't THAT long) no problem? No need to add a separate fleet type for those routes, after all SQ flew those things on SFO/LAX-SIN (albeit with only 161 seats). I imagine an A350ULR in something like a 250 seat arrangement could fly JNB-ATL.


The ULR is just a 280T A350-900 with extra fuel capacity. It sacrifices payload for range. The issue with ATL-JNB isn't fuel capacity, it's take off weight due to the performance limitations at JNB with it being hot and high.
 
questions
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:30 pm

So by 2023 DL fleet will look like this?

- 220
- 737, 738, 739
- 321
- 332, 333, 339
- 350

Gone:
- MD88, MD90, 717
- 319, 320
- 752
- 763, 764
- 777
Last edited by questions on Thu May 14, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:40 pm

questions wrote:
So by 2023 DL fleet will look like this?

- 220
- 737, 738, 739
- 321
- 332, 333, 339
- 350

Gone:
- MD88, MD90, 717
- 320
- 752
- 763, 764
- 777


What about the A319?
 
pipeafcr
Posts: 430
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:47 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:42 pm

As expected from the initial declaration that DL will emerge as a smaller carrier. This is only the beginning, and this is only one airline. I am sure DL will proceed to retire other aircraft that we currently don't expect
Felipe Carrillo
 
Lootess
Posts: 456
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:43 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Lootess wrote:
They are likely to stop retrofitting some of the 763ERs with the new Delta One and Premium Select, but older ones have been getting phased out incrementally. and yes it has always been the perfect plane for routes like ATL-STR. Just there isn't enough A330s on-property to really cut it out, not to say it's impossible but the Europe footprint really has to shrink a lot if they want to cut that plane out too.

Exactly. And it's not just unusual routes like ATL-STR. LHR is mostly (only?) served by 767. Germany, Switzerland, Belgium (except FRA) is only served by 767. Plus, the 767-300ER still has lower trip costs than the A339; its CASM is higher but that doesn't matter when there's no demand.


Yep, LHR was mostly 767, but another reason I believe the 764s can stick around for awhile, they fulfilled VS JV missions from hubs along with their premium-heavy seating.

Now if things continue to decorate, can imagine they'll be on the table simply cause sub-fleet reasons., and they ride out remaining 763 capacity for the JV.
 
questions
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 7:49 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
What about the A319?


Thanks for the catch.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2363
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:04 pm

questions wrote:
So by 2023 DL fleet will look like this?

- 220
- 737, 738, 739
- 321
- 332, 333, 339
- 350

Gone:
- MD88, MD90, 717
- 319, 320
- 752
- 763, 764
- 777


Where in the world are you getting that all 752, 763, and 764s will be gone? In addition, no indication on 319 and 320 either and merely speculation on the 717.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:08 pm

I was anticipating the -ERs not making it, but to see the -LRs gone too is tough. They are a beast, and they just finished the interior mods. Hard pill to swallow. It's a sunk cost and it's not a large factor in the decision to keep or retire, but still, what an unbelievable time we're in to see DL's entire 777 fleet gone. They will be missed.
 
ltbewr
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Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:08 pm

I am quite sure the accountants were working overtime (at home) in making this decision. DL has an excellent reputation as to making financial decisions. I presume DL owns these 777's, they are a sub-fleet, it makes it easier for staffing (and cut pilots), some are older so may be mx hogs, may have some value for P2F conversions.
 
LHA320
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:10 pm

United857 wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
The two PW 4000 models are pretty similar I think. About as much as the CF6 models.

The RR Trents are another story. Right now with the 777, A330Neo, A350 we have three different Trent products. We have never worked the 777 model in house. Another hit against the 777. The A330Neo version is a close cousin to the 787 motor and the A350 is quite a bit different from those two. All three of those models are in house or are on the plan to come in soon.

Retiring the 777 gets the only two engines out of the fleet that does not get worked on at Delta. Less outside work.


That is good to know. Thanks for the insight, I've never been an expert on engines. I thought that at least the Trent XWB on the 350 and the Trent 7000 on the A330neo would share more than a few parts.

The PW4000s are actually quite different. There were 3 major variants of the PW4000, the 94 inch, 100 inch, and 112 inch fan versions. The 94 inch version was used on the A300-600/A310/747-400/767-200/767-300/MD-11 and largely interchangeable between the different aircraft by changing out the mounting brackets/accessories/thrust rating plugs. The 100 inch version was bespoke to the A330 and the 112 inch version was bespoke to the 777-200/200ER/300.

The Trent 7000 is the bleed-air version of the Trent 1000 TEN used on the 787, which in turn has a few major differences in the core with the Trent XWB. The most significant difference is the 2 stage intermediate pressure turbine on the XWB vs. a single stage on all other versions of the RB211/Trent engines.


Wow, very detailed. Thank you.

questions wrote:
So by 2023 DL fleet will look like this?

- 220
- 737, 738, 739
- 321
- 332, 333, 339
- 350

Gone:
- MD88, MD90, 717
- 319, 320
- 752
- 763, 764
- 777


I don't think that any 319, all 320, all 752 and 763 will be gone by 2023. And what about the 753? I think it is missing on your overview.
Correct me if there is evidence that I'm wrong, because normally I just have some detailed knowledge about the LH Group but I think the DL fleet in 2023 will look:

- all 220-100 and -300 (delivery as planned)
- all A319
- half of the 320
- all A321 + A321neo (delivery as planned, starting next year)
- all A330-200, -300 and -900 (delivery as planned)
- all A359 (delivery as planned)
- all 737-700, -800 and -900ER
- 1/3 of the 752 (long term replacement by A321neo)
- all 753
- 1/2 of the 763

plus maybe the first 4-5 aircraft of a 320/738 replacement (A320neo or 737-8)
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
jmscsc
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:09 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:15 pm

Sad ... I love the 777. I flew that beauty from DTW-ICN ... LAX-SYD ... DTW-AMS ... and ATL-MCO.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:16 pm

LHA320 wrote:
United857 wrote:
LHA320 wrote:

That is good to know. Thanks for the insight, I've never been an expert on engines. I thought that at least the Trent XWB on the 350 and the Trent 7000 on the A330neo would share more than a few parts.

The PW4000s are actually quite different. There were 3 major variants of the PW4000, the 94 inch, 100 inch, and 112 inch fan versions. The 94 inch version was used on the A300-600/A310/747-400/767-200/767-300/MD-11 and largely interchangeable between the different aircraft by changing out the mounting brackets/accessories/thrust rating plugs. The 100 inch version was bespoke to the A330 and the 112 inch version was bespoke to the 777-200/200ER/300.

The Trent 7000 is the bleed-air version of the Trent 1000 TEN used on the 787, which in turn has a few major differences in the core with the Trent XWB. The most significant difference is the 2 stage intermediate pressure turbine on the XWB vs. a single stage on all other versions of the RB211/Trent engines.


Wow, very detailed. Thank you.

questions wrote:
So by 2023 DL fleet will look like this?

- 220
- 737, 738, 739
- 321
- 332, 333, 339
- 350

Gone:
- MD88, MD90, 717
- 319, 320
- 752
- 763, 764
- 777


I don't think that any 319, all 320, all 752 and 763 will be gone by 2023. And what about the 753? I think it is missing on your overview.
Correct me if there is evidence that I'm wrong, because normally I just have some detailed knowledge about the LH Group but I think the DL fleet in 2023 will look:

- all 220-100 and -300 (delivery as planned)
- all A319
- half of the 320
- all A321 + A321neo (delivery as planned, starting next year)
- all A330-200, -300 and -900 (delivery as planned)
- all A359 (delivery as planned)
- all 737-700, -800 and -900ER
- 1/3 of the 752 (long term replacement by A321neo)
- all 753
- 1/2 of the 763

plus maybe the first 4-5 aircraft of a 320/738 replacement (A320neo or 737-8)

I’d agree with this, and my guess on 320 replacement is 738Max. Can’t just pull from A, and they might manage a decent deal when the Max gets going. Also think the 764 could stick around, but it depends on how deep into efficiency they want to do. 21 jets and a totally separate pilot group, simulator, etc, and of course parts in Tech Ops.
 
CX747
Posts: 6251
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:31 pm

Spacepope wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
tb727 wrote:

Just was wondering the same thing when I saw this thread. I bet they get doors cut in them.


Delta's 777 fleet is split across two subtypes, the -200ER and -200LR. If a P2F program gets launched, would it be valid for both?


The P2F program is just for the -300ER, not for any of the original length models, so probably not.


Does the cost of a used 777-200ER now hit a mark where modifications for P2F make fiscal sense? Somebody like Amazon that could take a lift penalty due to light loads?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
winginit
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:33 pm

Lootess wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
Very sad to see this. Retiring 777 also means DL has decided to permanently withdraw from SYD and JNB. DL will not have a capable aircraft to achieve any meaningful payload on these routes.


Not necessarily. LAX-SYD is doable on the higher tonne A350. Like another poster mentioned, Delta can just return to their original JFK-JNB (minus the old 764 stopover in DKR) and that'll work. SAA could go under, if anything ATL was a statement route since no one else could do it.


Delta seemingly confirming in pilot memo that SYD and JNB will stay:

Image
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 230
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:49 pm

Articuno wrote:
Ryefly wrote:
They should trade with American. Delta 777's for American's A330 fleet.

Exactly! The 777 and the A332 are the smallest widebody fleets of DL and AA, respectively, and the A332s won’t be reactivated by AA for a while.

If they trade, DL will operate A330s with all four engine types. Meanwhile, the 8 RR-powered 772ERs fit perfectly into AA’s 772ER fleet, and the 77Ls are of the same generation/family as AA’s 77Ws.


Its funny how one airline recognizes an equipment type is too big with too much capacity for the foreseeable future and dumps it for something more reasonable and the other doubles down on the heavy lifter.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The people who've been strident here arguing 'They can't retire 764s. They can't retire 777s - they just spent $millions on refurbishment,' need to remember this moment.


But as I've written numerous times, taking a logical and rational approach, the 777 was the most obvious target. The industry is quietly accepting that it will be 4-5 years before we return to 2019 levels. Which could mean that we won't see numbers that had been projected for 2025 -- in other words, DL's fleet strategy entering the new decade -- until next decade. Which means there's a lot of surplus capacity. This isn't 2008, where DL had a ton of new build widebodies floating in the domestic system that it use to cover future long-haul flying. The 77E are rapidly aging - it'd be sensible to replace them. And the 77L could have higher resale value than they've had in recent years due demand in the surging freighter market. Perhaps DL decided that rather than operating a small fleet of 777 in later years, it would just try to cash in on the entire fleet now.

In any event, DL the number of domestic flights operated with widebodies had been increasing, so for those who us who enjoy commuting on one, it'll be sad to see a large chunk of that fleet go.
Last edited by WidebodyPTV on Thu May 14, 2020 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4695
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 8:55 pm

CX747 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Delta's 777 fleet is split across two subtypes, the -200ER and -200LR. If a P2F program gets launched, would it be valid for both?


The P2F program is just for the -300ER, not for any of the original length models, so probably not.


Does the cost of a used 777-200ER now hit a mark where modifications for P2F make fiscal sense? Somebody like Amazon that could take a lift penalty due to light loads?


IAI/Bedek did a bunch of testing on an ex-MH 722ER at TLV studying conversions. While I think they got the answers they needed (hence their involvement with the 773ER conversion program) they never launched the 772 P2F and scrapped their guinea pig frame...
The last of the famous international playboys
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4760
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 9:07 pm

This cannot be surprising to anyone. International travel is dead for a while :(
Companies will not make their employees fly and those routes need business travel. Very easy but really inevitable. I wonder if delta would consider an all cargo fleet of 777s to serve these cities once a week? Delta has cargo contracts and clients for cargo.
 
acavpics
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 9:09 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
acavpics wrote:
I understand them retiring the ER's. But, Why the LR's though? Those are barely a decade old.


0) Cash is King right now
1) Cash Operating Cost of 77L is probably much higher than the other birds
2) Where do you *need* a 77L that the Cash Operating Cost can be justified

1+2 = Dead 77L


Then why not store them long term like AA did with the A330-200's?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 9:18 pm

winginit wrote:
Delta seemingly confirming in pilot memo that SYD and JNB will stay:


Let's just say that what's written in a pilot memo isn't always exactly what will happen. There's always pacifying language. We know from real-world data that DL's A359s aren't well suited for JNB-ATL. It could imply a switch to JFK, but even so it's a pilot memo. Take it with a mound of salt.

acavpics wrote:
Then why not store them long term like AA did with the A330-200's?


That's the biggest question with the -LRs. When you have a relatively young fleet of aircraft (only 28 of their widebodies are newer than the -LRs) that just finished interior mods (saving future cash) and has a long-haul capability that you can't always replace with the rest of your fleet, it's surprising that retirement instead of storage is the answer.
 
workhorse
Posts: 797
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:35 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 14, 2020 9:29 pm

    ethernal wrote:
    I believe the 777 seats are slightly wider than the A350 (and certainly A330) seats


    I know nothing about Delta's seats, but the width available per passenger in row in a 330 is certainly bigger than in a 350. In other words, in principle, you can put better seats into a 330 compared to a 350 (and, of course, even better ones in a 9-abreast 777). Don't know if Delta actually does it though. Maybe they use the same seat across the fleet and have bigger aisles in wider cabins. A lot of airlines do just that.



    (Edited: grammar and clarity)
    Last edited by workhorse on Thu May 14, 2020 9:37 pm, edited 7 times in total.
     
    GSP psgr
    Posts: 714
    Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:31 pm

    Probably a nonstarter in this environment, but do you think there might be any interest in UA's 764 fleet if they could get those frames at a rock bottom price (maybe to phase out some much older 763 frames)? Under normal circumstances, it would be a very Delta thing to pick up additional frames for an oddball fleet they already have.
     
    cessna2
    Posts: 395
    Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:33 pm

    From the memo that was sent to me.

    350 – With the retirement of the 777, we have made the decision to open two new bases in ATL and
    LAX. Enhancements to the 350 now allow it to operate key long-haul markets (SYD and JNB) at a lower
    operating cost than the 777. The three 350 bases will be roughly equal in size at approximately 90 crews
    each. The two new bases will pick up some of the flying that is currently operated by DTW; they will also
    pick up key routes from the 777.
     
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    ElroyJetson
    Posts: 826
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    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:33 pm

    enilria wrote:
    Regardless of aircraft capability, just because of the decline in fleet count I expect Australia, JNB, and India won’t be back for years.



    I have heard a number of people claim the ATL-JNB route was the most profitable in DL's network. If true, I cannot image they would let that one go.
    707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
     
    x1234
    Posts: 875
    Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:34 pm

    The 77E/77W is only a low CASM king with 10 abreast seating like AA & UA have on their 777's.
     
    Kilopond
    Posts: 561
    Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:40 pm

    usdcaguy wrote:
    Does anyone know if the 777s are bought or leased? I'm thinking some carriers would love to pick up a few 777s on the cheap if they're willing to wait a while until demand returns.


    According to the 10K report they are all owned. Download the .pdf file, open it and press CTRL+F +"777". Or go to page 25/107, whatever is easier. ;)

    https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... s-Filed-(1).pdf
    Last edited by Kilopond on Thu May 14, 2020 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    winginit
    Posts: 2880
    Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:42 pm

    MSPNWA wrote:
    winginit wrote:
    Delta seemingly confirming in pilot memo that SYD and JNB will stay:


    Let's just say that what's written in a pilot memo isn't always exactly what will happen. There's always pacifying language. We know from real-world data that DL's A359s aren't well suited for JNB-ATL. It could imply a switch to JFK, but even so it's a pilot memo. Take it with a mound of salt.


    Obviously. Loads of external factors in play that will impact both destinations, namely the survival of VA and/or SA. What the memo does confirm though without a doubt is that the 359 is capable of both SYD and JNB, which had been debated in this thread.

    MSPNWA wrote:
    acavpics wrote:
    Then why not store them long term like AA did with the A330-200's?


    That's the biggest question with the -LRs. When you have a relatively young fleet of aircraft (only 28 of their widebodies are newer than the -LRs) that just finished interior mods (saving future cash) and has a long-haul capability that you can't always replace with the rest of your fleet, it's surprising that retirement instead of storage is the answer.


    I suspect maintenance and spare parts are a factor there. That would be a decent chunk of working capital to hang onto for 10 planes whose missions for possibly years will be questionably viable at best. Regarding AA's stored 332s, I suspect we'll never see them in service again.
     
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    MrHMSH
    Posts: 2647
    Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:44 pm

    BBDFlyer wrote:
    MrHMSH wrote:
    The question on everyone's lips... can the A359 make it both ways from LAX-SYD with good cargo and passenger loads? If the answer is yes then a few people are going to be screaming into their pillows when it's announced.


    Sydney is payload restricted with an alternate on the A350. It usually is not restricted with a 777.


    Do we know that? I’m not sure anyone has flown an A350 on the route.
     
    Pi7472000
    Posts: 200
    Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:46 pm

    Nicknuzzii wrote:
    enilria wrote:
    Regardless of aircraft capability, just because of the decline in fleet count I expect Australia, JNB, and India won’t be back for years.


    Do you think the same stands for UA’s routes?


    UA has different strengths than Delta. When economy recovers SFO is a great hub to SYD. This may take a while though. I see UA returning to SYD if and when the virus gets under control. UA also has better hubs to return to India.
     
    jbs2886
    Posts: 2363
    Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

    Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

    Thu May 14, 2020 9:47 pm

    MSPNWA wrote:
    winginit wrote:
    Delta seemingly confirming in pilot memo that SYD and JNB will stay:


    Let's just say that what's written in a pilot memo isn't always exactly what will happen. There's always pacifying language. We know from real-world data that DL's A359s aren't well suited for JNB-ATL. It could imply a switch to JFK, but even so it's a pilot memo. Take it with a mound of salt.


    We also know that DL explicitly stated that enhancements will be made in order to allow JNB and SYD to operate as required.

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