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Gemuser
Posts: 5092
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:20 am

Triple7Lr wrote:
MrBren wrote:
That's excellent news. 777s are too noisy and too thirsty.


To Noisy?? They sound beautiful :box:

IMHO the B777 [all models] are very noise in the passenger cabin and the roughest riders through the ITC of any wide body and worse even than the DC-8! :banghead:

Gemuser
 
acavpics
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:24 am

FlyGuyNash wrote:
I know this is very out there thinking and has no facts to it but does anyone think Delta and American could have struck a deal in regards to Delta 777s and American 330s? Logically it would allow both to park current airplanes but as demand returns they could bring those airplanes out of storage configure them and both carriers would accomplish a fleet simplification goal since American fly's a small 330 fleet and big 777 fleet and the opposite for Delta.


There has been some widespread speculation about that. Nothing certain as of now. It would be nice to see some Trent 700 powered A330's in DL livery.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:29 am

acavpics wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
acavpics wrote:
is it possible for them to "grab" the seats and other detachable cabin features from these 777's. I'm asking this because the 777s were recently refurbished in all classes. Could they shift all these seats from the 777s into the future A350's? If so, it would save them a decent amount of $$.

At least, economy class has the same 9-abreast configuration on their A350s.

How would they market them with no seats? If they're leased? they couldn't even return them. That's just money delta is going to have tp EAT!


Market what? The 777's that they just retired?

I was asking if DL could take the seats out of these 777's (before they are scrapped) and putting them in some of the to-be-delivered A350's. DL wouldn't have to buy brand new seats for these A350's, meaning that they could save some money.

I don't see them marketing the -200ER's for sure. Those are approaching 20 y/o and I doubt that anyone would want to buy them. However, the ER's still have the new seats, which means that the airline could take the seats from those 8 772's and put them in 8 A350's.

DL is retiring the aircraft from their fleet. It does not mean it is the end of the aircraft life. DL can still sell the aircraft if there is a buyer (even if the possibility of a buyer in the near future is remote). And if there is a buyer, why will they buy an aircraft with no seats?
 
LawAndOrder
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:56 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:30 am

MSPNWA wrote:
winginit wrote:
Has any airline expressed the desire to retain what had been their standard long-haul markets pre-covid? That's a pipe dream, and should most certainly not be the expectation anywhere. DL has 26 359s and 32 339s on order, which is more than enough to cover various iterations of a long-haul network anytime in the next several years.

But yes, understood that that flies in the face of the "wait wait wait don't compliment Delta on their low debt levels Delta is actually gonna have comparable debt to AA and UA because they need to place a big widebody order" narrative that you've been chirping

Different obstacles. We have the shorter-term Coronavirus collapse and expected slow recovery, and no airline is coming out of this the same size. But the decision DL made with the 777s is roughly for the next decade. This causes a long-term shift in their network unless they spend the money (when they have the least to spend) to acquire the aircraft (presumably new, such as what they have on order) to return or expand their long-haul network to pre-crisis levels. There's major consequences to the news today. And if that's their plan, fine, there's nothing wrong with not having long-haul be a significant portion of the network. But that is the situation they are putting themselves in with decisions made years ago and up to today. It's not a narrative. It's the reality that it appears some fail to accept without making it personal and spreading falsehoods about that person. We can have an honest and respectful debate here, right?


He has a point though every Delta thread you are negative. As if you can or do make better decisions than their fleet planners. Obviously this was delta plan to replace 777 with 359 (with 39 total in fleet or on order). Whose to say they can’t sell them now get the cash then finance the 359s when needed?
 
ethernal
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:32 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Luftymatt wrote:
the width available per passenger in row in a 330 is certainly bigger than in a 350 XWB. Are you sure about that??? Hint XWB stands for Extra wide bodied you know!

'In other words, in principle, you can put better seats into a 330 compared to a 350.' Er no you can't. The A350 cabin is bigger than the A330 cabin.

Max. cabin width of A330 = 5.26M
Passengers each row = 8
Width available per passenger in a row = 0.66m

Max. cabin width of A350XWB = 5.61m
Passengers each row = 9
Width available per passenger in a row = 0.62m

Hint XWB stands for Extra Wide Body, and not Extra Wide Seats.
So the poster is correct when he says width available per passenger in a row in a A330 is bigger than in a A350XWB.


Just for clarification / context... my comment was about D1 seats which would be 4 abreast regardless of the plane. The D1 seats on the A330 are noticeably more narrow than on the A350/777.
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:40 am

The new D-1 suites in A350 and B777 are slightly different, where the 777 suites have extra plugs. Not sure if the width is different between the two. If the size is the same and the extra plug does not cause a problem for A350s (voltage concerns?) I don't see why DL would not take those seats from 777 and ship them to Airbus to install them on new A350s.

The more I think about it, DL is just smart... No wondering they're the most profitable out of the 3 legacy carriers. DL is using this "opportunity" to simplify their fleet, where their long-haul fleet will be the newest out of the US3 after this pandemic is over with. Right now, UA and AA are not flying their 777s much and are paying $$$ for maintenance and storage for those birds. We do not know when all of these 777s will be needed again... maybe 3, 4, even 5 years from now will international, long-haul travel will return to pre-COVID levels where the 777 kind performance will be needed, which means those 777s will be that many years older while AA and UA have to pay for storage/maintenance on them.

Let's assume long haul international travel returns to pre-COVID levels in 2025, where all of the UA/AA 777s are utilized again, DL would have the youngest, most efficient planes out of the US3 for long haul routes (Assuming they continue to receive A339/A350s). By then, 777's numbers, no matter how great they are, will not be able to compete on a 1-1 basis with A339 and A350. Given DL's past record with smart/shrewd purchases, I would not be surprised if DL approach Boing for a few rock bottom 788/789s, along with 737 Maxes if they can really stop the cash burn rate by end of 2020.

For ATL-JNB - remember, DL might not need to carry the same amount of passenger/cargo as 77L to make the same amount of profit per flight, due to better economics of A350. If DL made $15K of profit per round trip between ATL-JNB with a full 77L, they might make the same $15K with A350, even if restrictions on JNB-ATL leg. So, for DL, no loss there.
Last edited by flyinghippo on Fri May 15, 2020 2:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:42 am

ethernal wrote:
Just for clarification / context... my comment was about D1 seats which would be 4 abreast regardless of the plane. The D1 seats on the A330 are noticeably more narrow than on the A350/777.

I think Luftymatt's post was in response to Workhorse's comment since he quoted him and not you.
I agree D1 seats on the A330 will be narrower and feel tighter (even if the seat is the same) than on a A350. But the older A330s do not have the D1 Suites either that are on the A350 and the B777.
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 2:43 am

DTWLAX wrote:
acavpics wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
How would they market them with no seats? If they're leased? they couldn't even return them. That's just money delta is going to have tp EAT!


Market what? The 777's that they just retired?

I was asking if DL could take the seats out of these 777's (before they are scrapped) and putting them in some of the to-be-delivered A350's. DL wouldn't have to buy brand new seats for these A350's, meaning that they could save some money.

I don't see them marketing the -200ER's for sure. Those are approaching 20 y/o and I doubt that anyone would want to buy them. However, the ER's still have the new seats, which means that the airline could take the seats from those 8 772's and put them in 8 A350's.

DL is retiring the aircraft from their fleet. It does not mean it is the end of the aircraft life. DL can still sell the aircraft if there is a buyer (even if the possibility of a buyer in the near future is remote). And if there is a buyer, why will they buy an aircraft with no seats?


Because the new owner of those planes would probably retrofit the 77E/77Ls with their own seats?
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2590
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 3:12 am

flyinghippo wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
acavpics wrote:

Market what? The 777's that they just retired?

I was asking if DL could take the seats out of these 777's (before they are scrapped) and putting them in some of the to-be-delivered A350's. DL wouldn't have to buy brand new seats for these A350's, meaning that they could save some money.

I don't see them marketing the -200ER's for sure. Those are approaching 20 y/o and I doubt that anyone would want to buy them. However, the ER's still have the new seats, which means that the airline could take the seats from those 8 772's and put them in 8 A350's.

DL is retiring the aircraft from their fleet. It does not mean it is the end of the aircraft life. DL can still sell the aircraft if there is a buyer (even if the possibility of a buyer in the near future is remote). And if there is a buyer, why will they buy an aircraft with no seats?


Because the new owner of those planes would probably retrofit the 77E/77Ls with their own seats?

Realistically the new owner of the ex-DL 777s is likely to be Coke.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:49 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 3:18 am

tullamarine wrote:
Realistically the new owner of the ex-DL 777s is likely to be Coke.


Except for the fact that the aluminum from old aircraft is not suitable to be used in can production ;)
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:55 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 3:19 am

9252fly wrote:
I see a number of poster's repetitively commenting on the loss of the 77L from JNB and being replaced by a A350 is not going to work. As a previous poster mentioned there is a paper MTOW increase on the A350 that DL could exercise if they're willing to pay Airbus, as it's not a structural issue; problem solved?

AC is another operator of the 77L with only six units, should be interesting to see if they meet the same fate.They, like DL have them primarily for two routes, YVR - SYD and YYZ - HKG. Both AC and DL on their two extreme routes would be giving up overall payload for efficiency.



It’s my opinion that AC will not get rid of them, they have 25 777s in the fleet(6 LRs and 19 ERs) that are no older than 13 years, and don’t just fly HKG, SYD
 
global1
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 3:33 am

Could the 777 and 717's be part of a bigger deal that Delta and Boeing may be cooking up for Max's and perhaps other models?
 
N649DL
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 3:40 am

This sucks. I was just on one last year for work on ATL-LAX and they were looking fantastic. Hopefully the 359s can take over. Getting rid of the LRs are terrible because they're long range, ERs I can understand dumping.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 3:55 am

TonyClifton wrote:

Removing the 777 removes an entire fleet type from the equation. Pilots, tech ops, scheduling. There’s 18 777s while over 100 combined 757/767s. Totally more sense to eliminate the odd one out, especially when 288 seats and ULH range isn’t needed for a long time.


If they want to restart that route, they are going to need to carry that extra cargo to make it viable. In this case the ULH range wasn't needed, its ability
to lift extra weight (due to its increased thrust and ability to have the extra fuel tanks fitted for the weight) meant that if they weren't carrying extra fuel
that weight carrying capability could be used for freight. There was a huge amount in both directions and remember LAX has mountains at one end and
relatively shorter runways. QF had often been forced to offload cargo for pax during times of the year. That's why the type was stuck on the route.
If they want to restart it and still carry cargo (the only thing actually brining money in long haul ATM) then they'll need to buy the A359URL, which means
additional capital expenditure. Ditto for runway performance at JNB.

So that means additional capital expenditure beyond the current order or dump both of these cities.
Which is looking more likely too given it looks like theres a significant chance Virgin Australia wont be around
to feed delta flights. And if you note i didn't say all the 767s or even mention 757s. I said older 767s.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 3:56 am

global1 wrote:
Could the 777 and 717's be part of a bigger deal that Delta and Boeing may be cooking up for Max's and perhaps other models?

There are speculation of 787s somewhere in another thread.
 
United857
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:37 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 4:02 am

Lufthansa wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:

Removing the 777 removes an entire fleet type from the equation. Pilots, tech ops, scheduling. There’s 18 777s while over 100 combined 757/767s. Totally more sense to eliminate the odd one out, especially when 288 seats and ULH range isn’t needed for a long time.


If they want to restart that route, they are going to need to carry that extra cargo to make it viable. In this case the ULH range wasn't needed, its ability
to lift extra weight (due to its increased thrust and ability to have the extra fuel tanks fitted for the weight) meant that if they weren't carrying extra fuel
that weight carrying capability could be used for freight. There was a huge amount in both directions and remember LAX has mountains at one end and
relatively shorter runways. QF had often been forced to offload cargo for pax during times of the year. That's why the type was stuck on the route.
If they want to restart it and still carry cargo (the only thing actually brining money in long haul ATM) then they'll need to buy the A359URL, which means
additional capital expenditure. Ditto for runway performance at JNB.

So that means additional capital expenditure beyond the current order or dump both of these cities.
Which is looking more likely too given it looks like theres a significant chance Virgin Australia wont be around
to feed delta flights. And if you note i didn't say all the 767s or even mention 757s. I said older 767s.

The A359ULR doesn't improve cargo capacity. The MTOW is the same between the normal 900 (the new version post-wing twist with the new winglets) and ULR at 280t. The only difference is that the ULR has larger fuel tanks (electronically limited on the normal 900, physical tanks are the same), so you can take on more fuel if you are fuel volume limited and below MTOW, but the ULR doesn't allow you to take on additional payload if the 900 was already at MTOW.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 E145 E75S E75L E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
n7371f
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 4:12 am

I have one name, one person for this thread...and he's the single worst CEO ever in the history of Boeing & McD: Harry Stonecipher.

SLCUT2777 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The story really goes back to DL buying the MD-11, I think. The Tristar was not a great performer ex-PDX to Asia and could not do ATL-NRT. The MD-11s could do all of the PDX TPAC flying without restrictions and could do ATL-NRT, albeit restricted. The 77E was an MD-11 replacement, but something like two thirds of the MD-11 fleet was used for PDX, so when the economy in East Asia tanked in the late 90s and DL dismantled the PDX hub, the 77E was left as somewhat of an orphan. It basically did ATL-NRT and TATL flying. Between Europe runs there was a fair amount of ATL-Florida flying, largely but not exclusively to MCO. (Keep in mind that in the early 00s, DL had a lot more capacity on ATL-Florida. ATL-JAX, for example, rarely saw anything smaller than a 752 and routinely saw widebodies.)

When DL needed more widebody range in the mid-00s, the 77L was really the only game in town. The 330 was much less capable then, and the 77Ls do have some commonality with the 77E.


This is true. The MD-11 was supposed to be the L-1011 replacement for Delta. They originally ordered 9, with an option for a further 39, which if exercised would have been roughly a one-for-one replacement. However, disappointment with the early payload/range performance of the MD-11, along with a rash of software gremlins in the avionics suite that gave the type fair-to-poor dispatch reliability, led to Delta only taking a total of 17 of these aircraft. Ironically, the aerodynamic fixes Mac made to get the MD-11 up to spec on the range/payload also made it notoriously difficult to fly in low-speed approach/landing flight modes. Still, Delta kept the MD-11's around for 13 years. The problem is that they also had to keep the L-1011's around throughout the 1990's due to the MD-11's dispatch issues.

The B77E's were bought to replace both the MD-11's and the last of the L-1011-500's. The base order was for 8, but they had purchase rights for more. However, due to issues with the pilot contract amendment to add the B77E (the pilots wanted something similar to United's B744-level hourly rates to fly the 777), and later the business collapse aftermath caused by 9/11, put future orders for the type on ice. By the mid-2000's, business recuperated and the TPAC markets were heating up, so Delta went to Boeing looking for more B777's and purchased 10 brand-new B77L's, thanks the variant's better TPAC payload/range performance from their ATL hub.

As for domestic usage of Delta's widebody fleet, the frequent appearance of the L-1011, MD-11, B767 and B777 at MCO over the years were done for longhaul tag-ends (e.g. there used to be a MCO-LAX-NRT MD-11 flight in the 90's), seasonal capacity bumps and for "showing the flag" for Delta at one of its most important and competitive destination markets. And like all big international airlines, they still do hub-to-hub runs with their big jets.


The MD-11 debacle was perhaps the undoing of Ronald W. Allen's tenure as Delta CEO. Keep in mind Delta had a VERY cozy relationship with MDD dating back into the founding Woolman era. This no doubt contributed to such a corporate gaff at the time. In an alternate history one can only wonder if Delta shouldn't have held out and gone in with United as a 777 launch customer. Boeing was sadly corrupted by the MDD culture when the latter merged with them during the late 1990's. It contributed to some serious mistakes by Boeing that have hurt them with U.S. and other flag carriers around the world. 2000-2004 Boeing should've focused on an upgraded 757neo but rather focused too much on a larger 737 with greater capacity. Now Airbus has taken that market away with the A321LR and longer haul versions. The MAX was the capstone disaster for Boeing since it's also carried over to the next-generation 777. The dysfunction at Boeing is driving the post NW-merger Delta corporate leaders increasingly to go with Airbus as we've seen with rejections of any 787 models and instead going with A330 next-generation models (A33neo, A339) and now rejecting the 777 in favor of the A350.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 4:13 am

United857 wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:

Removing the 777 removes an entire fleet type from the equation. Pilots, tech ops, scheduling. There’s 18 777s while over 100 combined 757/767s. Totally more sense to eliminate the odd one out, especially when 288 seats and ULH range isn’t needed for a long time.


If they want to restart that route, they are going to need to carry that extra cargo to make it viable. In this case the ULH range wasn't needed, its ability
to lift extra weight (due to its increased thrust and ability to have the extra fuel tanks fitted for the weight) meant that if they weren't carrying extra fuel
that weight carrying capability could be used for freight. There was a huge amount in both directions and remember LAX has mountains at one end and
relatively shorter runways. QF had often been forced to offload cargo for pax during times of the year. That's why the type was stuck on the route.
If they want to restart it and still carry cargo (the only thing actually brining money in long haul ATM) then they'll need to buy the A359URL, which means
additional capital expenditure. Ditto for runway performance at JNB.

So that means additional capital expenditure beyond the current order or dump both of these cities.
Which is looking more likely too given it looks like theres a significant chance Virgin Australia wont be around
to feed delta flights. And if you note i didn't say all the 767s or even mention 757s. I said older 767s.

The A359ULR doesn't improve cargo capacity. The MTOW is the same between the normal 900 (the new version post-wing twist with the new winglets) and ULR at 280t. The only difference is that the ULR has larger fuel tanks (electronically limited on the normal 900, physical tanks are the same), so you can take on more fuel if you are fuel volume limited and below MTOW, but the ULR doesn't allow you to take on additional payload if the 900 was already at MTOW.

The ULR has forward cargo hold deactivated, so total cargo capacity is reduced vs standard 359. This is the reason why SQ hasn't flown any of their ULRs since grounding them.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 4:20 am

acavpics wrote:
There has been some widespread speculation about that. Nothing certain as of now. It would be nice to see some Trent 700 powered A330's in DL livery.

A330's powered by the RR Trent 7000 are already in DL's colours - there is little prospect of seeing any Trent 700 powered ones to join the GE and PW powered ones in the fleet.
 
ual777newpaint
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:39 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 4:33 am

DTWLAX wrote:
ethernal wrote:
Just for clarification / context... my comment was about D1 seats which would be 4 abreast regardless of the plane. The D1 seats on the A330 are noticeably more narrow than on the A350/777.

I think Luftymatt's post was in response to Workhorse's comment since he quoted him and not you.
I agree D1 seats on the A330 will be narrower and feel tighter (even if the seat is the same) than on a A350. But the older A330s do not have the D1 Suites either that are on the A350 and the B777.


The A330neo do, however, have D1 Suites and yes: they are noticeably narrower than their counterparts on the A350/777. The aisles are also pretty narrow in D1 on the neo, which makes sense considering the fact that they’re squeezing 4 seats with “doors” into a narrower aircraft.

(Edit: maybe you were alluding to the A330neos having D1 suites when you said that the “older A330s” do not have them. Apologies if I misunderstood)
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GSP psgr
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 5:15 am

acavpics wrote:
FlyGuyNash wrote:
I know this is very out there thinking and has no facts to it but does anyone think Delta and American could have struck a deal in regards to Delta 777s and American 330s? Logically it would allow both to park current airplanes but as demand returns they could bring those airplanes out of storage configure them and both carriers would accomplish a fleet simplification goal since American fly's a small 330 fleet and big 777 fleet and the opposite for Delta.


There has been some widespread speculation about that. Nothing certain as of now. It would be nice to see some Trent 700 powered A330's in DL livery.


I could see the AA 332s being attractive; they are newer than the 333 fleet which has mostly been beaten to death and back over 20 years in transatlantic service dating back to the very late 1990s. The other set of aircraft I could see them wanting are the soon to be ex-UA 764s; they might be had at a ridiculously low price as nobody else is going to want to touch them with a 10 foot pole.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1572
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 5:24 am

ACA772LR wrote:
9252fly wrote:
I see a number of poster's repetitively commenting on the loss of the 77L from JNB and being replaced by a A350 is not going to work. As a previous poster mentioned there is a paper MTOW increase on the A350 that DL could exercise if they're willing to pay Airbus, as it's not a structural issue; problem solved?

AC is another operator of the 77L with only six units, should be interesting to see if they meet the same fate.They, like DL have them primarily for two routes, YVR - SYD and YYZ - HKG. Both AC and DL on their two extreme routes would be giving up overall payload for efficiency.



It’s my opinion that AC will not get rid of them, they have 25 777s in the fleet(6 LRs and 19 ERs) that are no older than 13 years, and don’t just fly HKG, SYD


Yup, AC B77Ls are commonly seen on FRA & LHR routes from various cities....
 
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CitizenJustin
Posts: 716
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 5:37 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
MrBren wrote:
That's excellent news. 777s are too noisy and too thirsty.

One day, when everything is so quiet that you can hear the hair in your ears grow, you'll be missing the "noisy" airplanes.



What real aviation geek complains about the 777 sound or just the 777 in general? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually say they dislike the sound of the 777, but there’s a first for everything.
 
catiii
Posts: 3641
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 5:55 am

SLCUT2777 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The story really goes back to DL buying the MD-11, I think. The Tristar was not a great performer ex-PDX to Asia and could not do ATL-NRT. The MD-11s could do all of the PDX TPAC flying without restrictions and could do ATL-NRT, albeit restricted. The 77E was an MD-11 replacement, but something like two thirds of the MD-11 fleet was used for PDX, so when the economy in East Asia tanked in the late 90s and DL dismantled the PDX hub, the 77E was left as somewhat of an orphan. It basically did ATL-NRT and TATL flying. Between Europe runs there was a fair amount of ATL-Florida flying, largely but not exclusively to MCO. (Keep in mind that in the early 00s, DL had a lot more capacity on ATL-Florida. ATL-JAX, for example, rarely saw anything smaller than a 752 and routinely saw widebodies.)

When DL needed more widebody range in the mid-00s, the 77L was really the only game in town. The 330 was much less capable then, and the 77Ls do have some commonality with the 77E.


This is true. The MD-11 was supposed to be the L-1011 replacement for Delta. They originally ordered 9, with an option for a further 39, which if exercised would have been roughly a one-for-one replacement. However, disappointment with the early payload/range performance of the MD-11, along with a rash of software gremlins in the avionics suite that gave the type fair-to-poor dispatch reliability, led to Delta only taking a total of 17 of these aircraft. Ironically, the aerodynamic fixes Mac made to get the MD-11 up to spec on the range/payload also made it notoriously difficult to fly in low-speed approach/landing flight modes. Still, Delta kept the MD-11's around for 13 years. The problem is that they also had to keep the L-1011's around throughout the 1990's due to the MD-11's dispatch issues.

The B77E's were bought to replace both the MD-11's and the last of the L-1011-500's. The base order was for 8, but they had purchase rights for more. However, due to issues with the pilot contract amendment to add the B77E (the pilots wanted something similar to United's B744-level hourly rates to fly the 777), and later the business collapse aftermath caused by 9/11, put future orders for the type on ice. By the mid-2000's, business recuperated and the TPAC markets were heating up, so Delta went to Boeing looking for more B777's and purchased 10 brand-new B77L's, thanks the variant's better TPAC payload/range performance from their ATL hub.

As for domestic usage of Delta's widebody fleet, the frequent appearance of the L-1011, MD-11, B767 and B777 at MCO over the years were done for longhaul tag-ends (e.g. there used to be a MCO-LAX-NRT MD-11 flight in the 90's), seasonal capacity bumps and for "showing the flag" for Delta at one of its most important and competitive destination markets. And like all big international airlines, they still do hub-to-hub runs with their big jets.


The MD-11 debacle was perhaps the undoing of Ronald W. Allen's tenure as Delta CEO. Keep in mind Delta had a VERY cozy relationship with MDD dating back into the founding Woolman era. This no doubt contributed to such a corporate gaff at the time. In an alternate history one can only wonder if Delta shouldn't have held out and gone in with United as a 777 launch customer. Boeing was sadly corrupted by the MDD culture when the latter merged with them during the late 1990's. It contributed to some serious mistakes by Boeing that have hurt them with U.S. and other flag carriers around the world. 2000-2004 Boeing should've focused on an upgraded 757neo but rather focused too much on a larger 737 with greater capacity. Now Airbus has taken that market away with the A321LR and longer haul versions. The MAX was the capstone disaster for Boeing since it's also carried over to the next-generation 777. The dysfunction at Boeing is driving the post NW-merger Delta corporate leaders increasingly to go with Airbus as we've seen with rejections of any 787 models and instead going with A330 next-generation models (A33neo, A339) and now rejecting the 777 in favor of the A350.


Ron Allen’s undoing wasn’t the MD11. It was his abusive nature to his reports, which led to complaints to the BOD, who then convened an internal review and found those complaints to be with merit. He “retired.”
 
xxcr
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 6:35 am

with the current situation, a lot of airlines are retiring their older and larger planes due to demand.

They will be losing their heavy lifter.....the A359 cannot do with the 777ER/LR can do when it comes to cargo and range. then again, the a359 will be cheaper to operate...??
 
ZRHYYZ773ER
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 6:50 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
ZRHYYZ773ER wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Statement from Ed Bastian: https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/12 ... 6106342401

The entire 777 fleet will be retired at the end of 2020. DL just pumped millions into refurbishing the fleet.



what about the JNB and SYD services? no other plane in the fleet can do these routes?


The A350 will have no problem operating the LAX-SYD sector. ATL-JNB probably ok too.


oh, yes you're right, was just thinking because of the range with pax and cargo but might work out for DL
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precure787
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 7:06 am

What might the fate of DL's 777 be? I'm guessing that the ER variants would likely be scrapped and parted out, while the LR variants would be converted into freighters as 777BCF (potential customers who haven't flown the 777F would include, but not limited to: UPS, Air Transport International, ABX Air, or Singapore Airlines Cargo). The 777-200LR would soon become unviable for passenger use, instead seeing the 787-9 and the A350-900 more cost-effective than the 777-200LR (maybe the interest towards the 777-200LR was lacking upon introduction).
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flee
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 7:13 am

xxcr wrote:
with the current situation, a lot of airlines are retiring their older and larger planes due to demand.

They will be losing their heavy lifter.....the A359 cannot do with the 777ER/LR can do when it comes to cargo and range. then again, the a359 will be cheaper to operate...??

I would not be surprised if DL took a TCO approach in its calculations. They may believe that the next 4 or 5 years will be challenging and load factors will be much lower. Therefore, load carrying capability will not be important but TCO for each asset is more important to minimise cash outflow and protect the company's cash position.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 7:15 am

It would probably save alot of money for Delta to serve LAX-HNL-SYD when that returns.

I don't think JNB is returning for a very long time. Do you think Delta would consider ATL-SJU-JNB that would shave 1,550 miles off the trip. That should be doable with a A350 if they did a stop. Business travel won't be back for a while and airlines have alot more planes sitting around, a stop isn't the big deal it was three months ago.
 
gloom
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 7:50 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Hint XWB stands for Extra Wide Body, and not Extra Wide Seats.


Nice cheat, taking seats into account, but not aisles. They're both at the same width and number (two aisles, probably more or less seat-width).

Recalculate with 10 and 11 respectively (8seat+2aisles across; 9seats+2aisles), and the difference becomes minimal.

Cheers,
Adam
 
VSMUT
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 8:02 am

flyinghippo wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
acavpics wrote:

Market what? The 777's that they just retired?

I was asking if DL could take the seats out of these 777's (before they are scrapped) and putting them in some of the to-be-delivered A350's. DL wouldn't have to buy brand new seats for these A350's, meaning that they could save some money.

I don't see them marketing the -200ER's for sure. Those are approaching 20 y/o and I doubt that anyone would want to buy them. However, the ER's still have the new seats, which means that the airline could take the seats from those 8 772's and put them in 8 A350's.

DL is retiring the aircraft from their fleet. It does not mean it is the end of the aircraft life. DL can still sell the aircraft if there is a buyer (even if the possibility of a buyer in the near future is remote). And if there is a buyer, why will they buy an aircraft with no seats?


Because the new owner of those planes would probably retrofit the 77E/77Ls with their own seats?


While it is unlikely to happen, many customers that took large airplanes in recent history kept parts of the already installed interior. Think the A340s that went to Iran and Nigeria, HiFly A380s, many of the 777s that went to Russia and the ex-Singapore 777-200ERs that wander from one airline to another to cover for 787 engine issues.
 
rbavfan
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 8:03 am

tphuang wrote:
It does make sense in current environment to retire the aircraft with the most seat. And by the time demand comes back, they will have all the A350s and A330NEO they need to replace them. Airbus will be happy from this, since it probably means DL will take all their A350s and maybe even order more down the line. I wonder if this also helps out A330NEOs.


It does if fuel is expected to go up. Also may see faster allowed depreciation on newer frames to boost sales after recovery starts. That could boost the manufactures sales longer term.
 
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 8:08 am

precure787 wrote:
What might the fate of DL's 777 be? I'm guessing that the ER variants would likely be scrapped and parted out, while the LR variants would be converted into freighters as 777BCF (potential customers who haven't flown the 777F would include, but not limited to: UPS, Air Transport International, ABX Air, or Singapore Airlines Cargo). The 777-200LR would soon become unviable for passenger use, instead seeing the 787-9 and the A350-900 more cost-effective than the 777-200LR (maybe the interest towards the 777-200LR was lacking upon introduction).


Due to the composite floors Amazon style operations would better suit 777P2F. They need volume space, not weight per square ft. To boost weight per sq. ft. would be an expensive replacement of the composite floors.
 
tvh
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 8:10 am

346fetish wrote:
cokepopper wrote:
So, not returning to Johannesburg for awhile? Or is the 350 capable?


359 is capable JNBATL.


South africa airways leased the a350 specialy to fly to JFK, I think DL did not put the a350 on JNB before because the route leads to a lot off down time.
 
VSMUT
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 8:24 am

precure787 wrote:
What might the fate of DL's 777 be? I'm guessing that the ER variants would likely be scrapped and parted out, while the LR variants would be converted into freighters as 777BCF (potential customers who haven't flown the 777F would include, but not limited to: UPS, Air Transport International, ABX Air, or Singapore Airlines Cargo).


There is no cargo conversion for 777-200LRs, so it will be either resale or scrap. Nobody is going to spend anything on developing and certifying a conversion for a feedstock of less than 60 aircraft (of which the 5 first to hit the market already got scrapped).
 
Wingtips56
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:05 am

AA747123 wrote:
Ryefly wrote:
They should trade with American. Delta 777's for American's A330 fleet.


Actually a good idea, I remember back in the early 80s, AA swapped their 747s for Pan Am DC10s. But give the likely hood of an AA liquidation I doubt any bank holding the liens on the DL 77L would take that deal.

Those DC10s had come in to PA from National. PA was using them for charters and as I recall were configured for 368 Y seats. I got to look in one at LAS one Sunday...no bulkheads between the front and back.
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tvh
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:08 am

VSMUT wrote:
precure787 wrote:
What might the fate of DL's 777 be? I'm guessing that the ER variants would likely be scrapped and parted out, while the LR variants would be converted into freighters as 777BCF (potential customers who haven't flown the 777F would include, but not limited to: UPS, Air Transport International, ABX Air, or Singapore Airlines Cargo).


There is no cargo conversion for 777-200LRs, so it will be either resale or scrap. Nobody is going to spend anything on developing and certifying a conversion for a feedstock of less than 60 aircraft (of which the 5 first to hit the market already got scrapped).


Is it really that complicated when there is already a P2F for the B777-300er and a B777F which is bassiclay the same airframe. I would think is more like a lot of paper-work to combine all allready aviable solutions.
 
inkjet7
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:16 am

jfk777 wrote:

Doubtful, Air France and KLM rely on the 777-200ER as their main long haul plane, they don't have 50 767 or 30 A330 like their American cousin from Atlanta. AF is ditching their A380 and A340's. KLM's last 747's took early retirement too, so the 777's of any variant are now their main plane to far places. AF 77W have been their main long haul plane too.


KL. wanted to retire their A330's but it would be too costly to get out of the lease contracts. Currently they rely on the 77W's but not so much on the -200's. Something's going to give...
 
MartijnNL
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:49 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
What real aviation geek complains about the 777 sound or just the 777 in general? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually say they dislike the sound of the 777, but there’s a first for everything.

I remember seeing my first 777 at Amsterdam Airport around 1995/1996. I believe United Airlines was the only operator of the type at that time. For some time Schiphol had only one daily 777 flight, UA947 to Washington. From the viewing deck and the runway vantage points the take off sound was always impressive.

I was thrilled when I boarded UA947 for the first time in February 2000. Travelling on the world's largest twinjet was a wonderful experience. Seeing Greenland for the first time certainly added to my overall excitement. In 2002 I set foot on UA947 again, this time continuing all the way to San Francisco. Economy class was still 2-5-2 at the time. When United changed to 3-3-3 and many airlines opted for 3-4-3 I lost my interest in the aircraft.

However when Swiss had its first Boeing 777 delivered and announced flights within Europe my brother and I booked a return trip to Athens. We were seated in one of the last two rows, the only place in economy where you have two seats together. I wouldn't have travelled otherwise. I noticed the cabin noise was really loud, much louder than other aircraft types I am used of travelling with. To this date that remains my last trip on a 777.

I am a real aviation enthusiast. But to me the 777 isn't special anymore, like it was twenty years ago. And I prefer to travel on other aircraft types, because they offer more pleasant cabin layouts and less engine noise.
 
VSMUT
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 am

tvh wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
precure787 wrote:
What might the fate of DL's 777 be? I'm guessing that the ER variants would likely be scrapped and parted out, while the LR variants would be converted into freighters as 777BCF (potential customers who haven't flown the 777F would include, but not limited to: UPS, Air Transport International, ABX Air, or Singapore Airlines Cargo).


There is no cargo conversion for 777-200LRs, so it will be either resale or scrap. Nobody is going to spend anything on developing and certifying a conversion for a feedstock of less than 60 aircraft (of which the 5 first to hit the market already got scrapped).


Is it really that complicated when there is already a P2F for the B777-300er and a B777F which is bassiclay the same airframe. I would think is more like a lot of paper-work to combine all allready aviable solutions.


There will be a ton of expensive paperwork involved in the certification. Developing an STC is expensive, even if the base aircraft is very similar. It isn't just a simple cut and paste task.

Look at the available feedstock:
Emirates and Qatar have 10 and 9 respectively, but they are vital to those two, so won't be let go.
Ethiopian Airlines has 6, but lets face it, the hot and high conditions in Addis make this another airline that won't let go of them any time soon.
6 are business/VIP jets, so forget those.
5 already got scrapped.

That leaves 24 airframes that could be suitable for conversion, and only if the owner/operator decides to let it go with enough life left in it and in a good enough condition. Furthermore, those remaining airframes belong to so many operators, that they will be released in drips and drabs and in varying conditions. That is completely unsuitable for an airline looking to build a fleet of them.


CitizenJustin wrote:
What real aviation geek complains about the 777 sound or just the 777 in general? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually say they dislike the sound of the 777, but there’s a first for everything.


The sound of the engines spooling up is awesome, but the loud droning noise it makes in cruise is horrible.
 
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cv990Coronado
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 11:04 am

VSMUT wrote:
tvh wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The sound of the engines spooling up is awesome, but the loud droning noise it makes in cruise is horrible.


Yes from the outside looking at the 777 it is fantastic but from the inside no so good. Give me a 787 or A330/340/350 any day, and the really quiet and comfortable one is the A380, it would never win a beauty contest though.
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airbazar
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 11:08 am

flyinghippo wrote:
Because the new owner of those planes would probably retrofit the 77E/77Ls with their own seats?

That's highly unlikely. These aircraft will either end up being scrapped or in a fleet where the new owner doesn't care about the interior. It costs a lot of money to retrofit an aircraft. That is why HiFly's A380 is still configured with SQ's interior, for example.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I don't think JNB is returning for a very long time.

Prepare to be surprised. It will likely return right away. For only 2 flights a day, that market is relatively large and high yielding. There's no way DL is abandoning or even suspending that route.
Last edited by airbazar on Fri May 15, 2020 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 11:18 am

Assuming these cabin interiors cannot be repurposed, Delta should auction off D1 suites and a section of wall trim, maybe overhead bin. Lot of people are missing air travel. Perfect for a man cave.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 12:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Assuming these cabin interiors cannot be repurposed, Delta should auction off D1 suites and a section of wall trim, maybe overhead bin. Lot of people are missing air travel. Perfect for a man cave.

Yes, many man caves would like one but it is the shipping cost that will kill the idea.
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Lufthansa
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 12:12 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
United857 wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:

If they want to restart that route, they are going to need to carry that extra cargo to make it viable. In this case the ULH range wasn't needed, its ability
to lift extra weight (due to its increased thrust and ability to have the extra fuel tanks fitted for the weight) meant that if they weren't carrying extra fuel
that weight carrying capability could be used for freight. There was a huge amount in both directions and remember LAX has mountains at one end and
relatively shorter runways. QF had often been forced to offload cargo for pax during times of the year. That's why the type was stuck on the route.
If they want to restart it and still carry cargo (the only thing actually brining money in long haul ATM) then they'll need to buy the A359URL, which means
additional capital expenditure. Ditto for runway performance at JNB.

So that means additional capital expenditure beyond the current order or dump both of these cities.
Which is looking more likely too given it looks like theres a significant chance Virgin Australia wont be around
to feed delta flights. And if you note i didn't say all the 767s or even mention 757s. I said older 767s.

The A359ULR doesn't improve cargo capacity. The MTOW is the same between the normal 900 (the new version post-wing twist with the new winglets) and ULR at 280t. The only difference is that the ULR has larger fuel tanks (electronically limited on the normal 900, physical tanks are the same), so you can take on more fuel if you are fuel volume limited and below MTOW, but the ULR doesn't allow you to take on additional payload if the 900 was already at MTOW.

The ULR has forward cargo hold deactivated, so total cargo capacity is reduced vs standard 359. This is the reason why SQ hasn't flown any of their ULRs since grounding them.


All the more reason to keep a small 77L sub fleet.
 
AirwayBill
Posts: 183
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 12:34 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
All the more reason to keep a small 77L sub fleet.


The high costs of keeping such a small subfleet of airliners easily offsets any benefits it could possibly bring the airline, even with one or two so-called "golden routes" that could take advantage of a possible 77L advantage (which apparently Delta doesn't really hold dear all that much given the phenomenal capabilities of the A350).
 
jayunited
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 12:53 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
How much cargo was Delta carrying on LAX-SYD or JNB-ATL?



I'm not sure about JNB-ATL but UA on LAX-SYD on a 789 can carry a full load of passengers which equates to around 300 bags and around 20,000-25,000 pounds of cargo, the same is true on return leg . The only time the 789 has problems coming out of SYD in during the summer when temperatures exceed 100 degrees F or 38 degrees C. Under those conditions UA on a 789 would have to jettison all the cargo out of SYD.

I've always thought the A359 was much more capable than the 789, so I've never understood why DL did not place the A359 on this route. Now in a memo posted they are saying the problem has been fixed, but what problem is DL referring to? Prior to COVID-19 SQ used a standard A359 on SIN-SFO-SIN, side note UA 789s SIN-SFO could carry a full passenger load and around 15,000 pounds of cargo. I wish someone could explain what the problem was DL faced with their A359s and how it was fixed.
 
DCA350
Posts: 163
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 12:59 pm

jayunited wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
How much cargo was Delta carrying on LAX-SYD or JNB-ATL?



I'm not sure about JNB-ATL but UA on LAX-SYD on a 789 can carry a full load of passengers which equates to around 300 bags and around 20,000-25,000 pounds of cargo, the same is true on return leg . The only time the 789 has problems coming out of SYD in during the summer when temperatures exceed 100 degrees F or 38 degrees C. Under those conditions UA on a 789 would have to jettison all the cargo out of SYD.

I've always thought the A359 was much more capable than the 789, so I've never understood why DL did not place the A359 on this route. Now in a memo posted they are saying the problem has been fixed, but what problem is DL referring to? Prior to COVID-19 SQ used a standard A359 on SIN-SFO-SIN, side note UA 789s SIN-SFO could carry a full passenger load and around 15,000 pounds of cargo. I wish someone could explain what the problem was DL faced with their A359s and how it was fixed.


If I'm not mistaken, Delta's earlier A350s were delivered rated at a lower MTOW to save money. Perhaps they paid Airbus the fee to raise MTOW and now they can do LAX-SYD with a profitable load.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 608
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 12:59 pm

This move tells me Delta doesn't believe the capability of the 777 is coming back anytime soon. Meaning years. They are willing to drop young aircraft. Arent a couple of these frames 10 years old?

This virus may have set the aviation industry back a decade or more.
 
reltney
Posts: 669
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 1:00 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ehaase wrote:
Even after retiring 18 777's, will Delta need 39 359's (13 current and 26 on order) within the next 5 years?


Probably will work out fine, especially with 767 retirements. You can expect a different delivery schedule that will more closely match anticipated recovery. That is, you rip out all the capacity now and retire aircraft, then get take your aircraft deliveries in line with expected recovery.


They are NOT retiring the 767.... trimming the fleet a bit but not retiring.
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