Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4808
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:26 pm

flyinghippo wrote:
If DL plays their cards right, they can really come out as the carrier with the most efficient fleet by the end of the decade. Boeing is dying for orders. DL might press Boeing into a killer deal


Hard to see a killer deal going down in 2020 for new planes by a US carrier.

Politicians would run an investigation and headlines would say delta used federal money to buy new planes. We all know not really true but it would be a PR nightmare. The media would have a field day. "Delta lays of 30,000 plus workers in October , takes federal money and buys new planes with your money" would be the headline. Again We all know that's not true but they would get raked over the coals for this by the media and politicians. Even if it's an interesting idea I cannot see any chance of it really happening
 
x1234
Posts: 919
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:28 pm

So is there going to be new deliveries of DL's A359 and A330neos?
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2429
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:29 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
If DL plays their cards right, they can really come out as the carrier with the most efficient fleet by the end of the decade. Boeing is dying for orders. DL might press Boeing into a killer deal


Hard to see a killer deal going down in 2020 for new planes by a US carrier.

Politicians would run an investigation and headlines would say delta used federal money to buy new planes. We all know not really true but it would be a PR nightmare. The media would have a field day. "Delta lays of 30,000 plus workers in October , takes federal money and buys new planes with your money" would be the headline. Again We all know that's not true but they would get raked over the coals for this by the media and politicians. Even if it's an interesting idea I cannot see any chance of it really happening


I would agree if the airlines bought non-U.S. manufactured aircraft (frankly, all of Airbus would probably get lumped into that, even with Mobile). Flow through of funds to U.S. manufacturing is partially the purpose for the funds.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:31 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
If DL plays their cards right, they can really come out as the carrier with the most efficient fleet by the end of the decade. Boeing is dying for orders. DL might press Boeing into a killer deal


Hard to see a killer deal going down in 2020 for new planes by a US carrier.

Politicians would run an investigation and headlines would say delta used federal money to buy new planes. We all know not really true but it would be a PR nightmare. The media would have a field day. "Delta lays of 30,000 plus workers in October , takes federal money and buys new planes with your money" would be the headline. Again We all know that's not true but they would get raked over the coals for this by the media and politicians. Even if it's an interesting idea I cannot see any chance of it really happening


I would agree if the airlines bought non-U.S. manufactured aircraft (frankly, all of Airbus would probably get lumped into that, even with Mobile). Flow through of funds to U.S. manufacturing is partially the purpose for the funds.


100% of the funds are for payroll support. Payroll support through the CARES Act sits in a segregated account specific for just that, payroll support. It is also audited. There's no way to spend it on CAPEX.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2688
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:37 pm

US319 wrote:
DL future longhaul widebody fleet will be 330/350. It seems many people cannot Accept that. Re the alleged killer deal. Airbus could even offer a better deal as Proven by Boeing - UA.



Within reason. Neither Airbus nor BCA will tie up a ton of production slots with airliners sold too close to cost. There was a time when that could have been done, but especially now, no, there is too much oversight for that.

In any case, DL will do well to rationalize their fleet, that I do agree with. And I also agree that Airbus would be competitive to the point of product factors making more of a difference there.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2429
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:41 pm

catiii wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Hard to see a killer deal going down in 2020 for new planes by a US carrier.

Politicians would run an investigation and headlines would say delta used federal money to buy new planes. We all know not really true but it would be a PR nightmare. The media would have a field day. "Delta lays of 30,000 plus workers in October , takes federal money and buys new planes with your money" would be the headline. Again We all know that's not true but they would get raked over the coals for this by the media and politicians. Even if it's an interesting idea I cannot see any chance of it really happening


I would agree if the airlines bought non-U.S. manufactured aircraft (frankly, all of Airbus would probably get lumped into that, even with Mobile). Flow through of funds to U.S. manufacturing is partially the purpose for the funds.


100% of the funds are for payroll support. Payroll support through the CARES Act sits in a segregated account specific for just that, payroll support. It is also audited. There's no way to spend it on CAPEX.


Fair enough - point still stands that DL making an order for Boeing aircraft wouldn't be bad politically/PR IMO. Also was in no way suggesting DL use payroll funds for CAPEX.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10178
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 9:49 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
If DL plays their cards right, they can really come out as the carrier with the most efficient fleet by the end of the decade. Boeing is dying for orders. DL might press Boeing into a killer deal


Hard to see a killer deal going down in 2020 for new planes by a US carrier.

Politicians would run an investigation and headlines would say delta used federal money to buy new planes. We all know not really true but it would be a PR nightmare. The media would have a field day. "Delta lays of 30,000 plus workers in October , takes federal money and buys new planes with your money" would be the headline. Again We all know that's not true but they would get raked over the coals for this by the media and politicians. Even if it's an interesting idea I cannot see any chance of it really happening


It's going to happen tho maybe not in 2020.
Money to buy airplanes usually comes from lending banks not the airline. And since most money from the CARES act wasn't a loan but a grant, every time an airline does something deemed wrong they'll be roasted in the media. I don't know how this is going to unfold but it's not going to be pretty. This is not money the airlines can just repay the government back and wash their hands off of it.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8435
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 10:05 pm

tealnz wrote:
jayunited wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
How much cargo was Delta carrying on LAX-SYD or JNB-ATL?



I'm not sure about JNB-ATL but UA on LAX-SYD on a 789 can carry a full load of passengers which equates to around 300 bags and around 20,000-25,000 pounds of cargo, the same is true on return leg . The only time the 789 has problems coming out of SYD in during the summer when temperatures exceed 100 degrees F or 38 degrees C. Under those conditions UA on a 789 would have to jettison all the cargo out of SYD.


UA reportedly canned the LAX-SYD because the 789 struggled westbound when seasonal winds were at their peak. The new higher MTOW 280t A350s with the improved aero won’t have that problem.


Regardless that UA never "canned" LAX-SYD pre-COVID, and no-one has any clue what will happen post-COVID, Jayunited is one of only a handful of posters on this site who would know what cargo payload United carry on any given route. If he/she says that United routinely carry 20-25,000 lbs then you can probably take that to the bank.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 10:36 pm

jagraham wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:

If they want to restart that route, they are going to need to carry that extra cargo to make it viable. In this case the ULH range wasn't needed, its ability
to lift extra weight (due to its increased thrust and ability to have the extra fuel tanks fitted for the weight) meant that if they weren't carrying extra fuel
that weight carrying capability could be used for freight. There was a huge amount in both directions and remember LAX has mountains at one end and
relatively shorter runways. QF had often been forced to offload cargo for pax during times of the year. That's why the type was stuck on the route.
If they want to restart it and still carry cargo (the only thing actually brining money in long haul ATM) then they'll need to buy the A359URL, which means
additional capital expenditure. Ditto for runway performance at JNB.

So that means additional capital expenditure beyond the current order or dump both of these cities.
Which is looking more likely too given it looks like theres a significant chance Virgin Australia wont be around
to feed delta flights. And if you note i didn't say all the 767s or even mention 757s. I said older 767s.

Internally, at DL 75/76 are common fleet, 764 excepted. Hence removing the 777 gains flight ops efficiencies, rather than a slimmer 75/76 fleet which will also see older birds beer-canned IMHO. Keeping an entire fleet of 18 jets for one maybe two routes will never offset the actual fleet cost. Again, I’m fairly confident DL knows what they’re doing here.


Older birds won't be scrapped, they're too popular as freighters. Otherwise, yeah. It is interesting that the 764s stayed . . probably no resale value and they are relatively new. And cheaper to operate than A332s to the European hubs.

Yeah 764 fills a good role of ATL/NYC to Western Europe. It’s a long plane with a relatively small when when compared to 763, so it is matched to that well, when you don’t need a 330’s range. LHR has jumped back and forth, 763, 764, 332, 764 again.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 10:43 pm

The main reason for the 77L was its ability to do SYD at MZFW, roughly 57t depending on the DOW. The A359 has a MZFW(53-57T) range of 5500-5900nm depending on weights, the MZFW range of a 77L is 7200nm which ensures 99% of the time they can take maximum structural payload to SYD. The A359 does much longer routes on a daily basis, so it is simply a matter of the amount of s**t they want to carry to Australia, DL chooses to take advantage of the cargo behemoth.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri May 15, 2020 11:38 pm

Perhaps this is a possibility:
Retiring the MD-88, MD-90, 772ER, and 772LR removed 4 engine types including spares.
(JT8D-218, V2500-D, RRtrent800, and GE90). These retirements also removed 2 pilot
groups which will also save money with training requirements.

Using the logic by most posters here that purchasing the 787 is the only way Delta will survive.
I will stir the pot: with ANET logic United is doomed if they don't accept and expedite the A350 orders.
AA is also doomed if they do not beg Airbus to allow them to assume the orders they cancelled.

This is fact as ANET armchair CEO trumps the Airline CEO's whom are in charge of multi billion dollar companies.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:28 am

airbazar wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
If DL plays their cards right, they can really come out as the carrier with the most efficient fleet by the end of the decade. Boeing is dying for orders. DL might press Boeing into a killer deal


Hard to see a killer deal going down in 2020 for new planes by a US carrier.

Politicians would run an investigation and headlines would say delta used federal money to buy new planes. We all know not really true but it would be a PR nightmare. The media would have a field day. "Delta lays of 30,000 plus workers in October , takes federal money and buys new planes with your money" would be the headline. Again We all know that's not true but they would get raked over the coals for this by the media and politicians. Even if it's an interesting idea I cannot see any chance of it really happening


It's going to happen tho maybe not in 2020.
Money to buy airplanes usually comes from lending banks not the airline. And since most money from the CARES act wasn't a loan but a grant, every time an airline does something deemed wrong they'll be roasted in the media. I don't know how this is going to unfold but it's not going to be pretty. This is not money the airlines can just repay the government back and wash their hands off of it.


30% of it is actually, and that is separate from the loan program.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:33 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
These retirements also removed 2 pilot
groups which will also save money with training requirements.


Except you’ve kicked off a massive airline wide training event in the near term. At DL every displacement triggers around 9 other seat moves, at a cost of around $2500 a day for training. That’s probably in excess of a $50M training event, to say nothing of the costs of voluntary programs or retirement bridges.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:44 am

TonyClifton wrote:
Internally, at DL 75/76 are common fleet, 764 excepted. Hence removing the 777 gains flight ops efficiencies, rather than a slimmer 75/76 fleet which will also see older birds beer-canned IMHO. Keeping an entire fleet of 18 jets for one maybe two routes will never offset the actual fleet cost. Again, I’m fairly confident DL knows what they’re doing here.


They’re ALL a common fleet. They’re separate categories: 765 and 7ER. The 350s are more efficient for the same mission, and the 20% CASM benefit in an environment where there is little international demand Is the driver.
 
User avatar
pwm2txlhopper
Posts: 1456
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:40 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:45 am

Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.

Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history.

ORD-FRA-ATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:47 am

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.

Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history.

ORD-FRA-ATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN


Cargo ops.
 
User avatar
pwm2txlhopper
Posts: 1456
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:40 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:49 am

catiii wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.

Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history.

ORD-FRA-ATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN


Cargo ops.


All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2429
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:58 am

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
catiii wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.

Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history.

ORD-FRA-ATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN


Cargo ops.


All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.


ORD and FRA are two of the largest cargo hubs in the world.
 
ILikeTrains
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:58 am

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
catiii wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.

Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history.

ORD-FRA-ATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN


Cargo ops.


All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.


Yea its daily at this point. Lots of cargo being shuffled around.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2231
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:01 am

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
catiii wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.

Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history.

ORD-FRA-ATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN


Cargo ops.


All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.


Doubt we'll know if its COVID or not but so much belly freight capacity was eliminated by the grounding of the airlines that a lot of stuff is stuck. The 77L is a hauling monster and DL will wring every bit of $ out of em till they go to the desert.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:21 am

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
catiii wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.

Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history.

ORD-FRA-ATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN


Cargo ops.


All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.


Its been pretty regular at this point. At least daily.
 
jordanh
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:23 am

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
catiii wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Speaking of DL 777’s, anybody know what’s up with these DL 777 flights utilitizing DL 777LR on ATL-ORD-FRA-ATL.Last one on N701DN departed ORD last night and is due to depart FRA for ATL tomorrow. Same flight was operated ten days ago, too if you look like past flight history. ORD-FRA-ATL https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N701DN

Cargo ops.

All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.



For now. Starting May 21st, they are actually opening the flight ATL-FRA (most of the freight is apparently originating in LAX) for passenger sales; same thing for DTW-LHR. Each flight is 3x per week.
 
n9801f
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:30 am

catiii wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
These retirements also removed 2 pilot
groups which will also save money with training requirements.


Except you’ve kicked off a massive airline wide training event in the near term. At DL every displacement triggers around 9 other seat moves, at a cost of around $2500 a day for training. That’s probably in excess of a $50M training event, to say nothing of the costs of voluntary programs or retirement bridges.

True. Though remember training is a little cheaper now since you don’t have to pull pilots out of line flying to do it. So now is a lower-cost window to transition to a lower-cost structure of the airline.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11137
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:37 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
tealnz wrote:
jayunited wrote:


I'm not sure about JNB-ATL but UA on LAX-SYD on a 789 can carry a full load of passengers which equates to around 300 bags and around 20,000-25,000 pounds of cargo, the same is true on return leg . The only time the 789 has problems coming out of SYD in during the summer when temperatures exceed 100 degrees F or 38 degrees C. Under those conditions UA on a 789 would have to jettison all the cargo out of SYD.


UA reportedly canned the LAX-SYD because the 789 struggled westbound when seasonal winds were at their peak. The new higher MTOW 280t A350s with the improved aero won’t have that problem.


Regardless that UA never "canned" LAX-SYD pre-COVID, and no-one has any clue what will happen post-COVID, Jayunited is one of only a handful of posters on this site who would know what cargo payload United carry on any given route. If he/she says that United routinely carry 20-25,000 lbs then you can probably take that to the bank.


tealnz was referring to LAX-SIN not LAX-SYD
Forum Moderator
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:45 am

n9801f wrote:
catiii wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
These retirements also removed 2 pilot
groups which will also save money with training requirements.


Except you’ve kicked off a massive airline wide training event in the near term. At DL every displacement triggers around 9 other seat moves, at a cost of around $2500 a day for training. That’s probably in excess of a $50M training event, to say nothing of the costs of voluntary programs or retirement bridges.

True. Though remember training is a little cheaper now since you don’t have to pull pilots out of line flying to do it. So now is a lower-cost window to transition to a lower-cost structure of the airline.


Yeah that's a fair point, plus you can use CARES Act payroll support to pay some of it.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 2:14 am

mxaxai wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
Yes but DL is going to eventually need to order a smaller narrow body replacement. Looking at the current fleet retirement projections, DL has no planned replacements for the MD-88s/90, 717s, and A320s most are 20+ years old and will need replacement soon. Might as well put orders in now to take advantage of deals and have delivery set up to be positioned when demand returns.

That's what the A220 is for. They can order more when the time comes. I think DL will easily become the largest operator of the type.

DL will be taking deliveries of their first A220-300s soon - I think their A220s will fit in with the new normal for the smaller aviation industry. One thing most airlines will find out - deliveries from the OEMs will be quicker because their backlog has been trimmed due to order cancellations. The need to rush to order will not be necessary. Besides, if need be, they can just hold on to their existing fleet for just a little while longer.
 
ups757
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:28 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 2:28 am

Watch UPS offer Delta a sweet deal on the 777 and we convert them to 777F. Just like Delta MD-11.
 
User avatar
pwm2txlhopper
Posts: 1456
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:40 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 2:32 am

jbs2886 wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:
catiii wrote:

Cargo ops.


All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.


ORD and FRA are two of the largest cargo hubs in the world.

Yes, I know that.

If it was UA or AA metal, I wouldn’t even bat an eye. DL metal, especially 777LR, just kind of unexpected on ORD-FRA.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 4:10 am

ups757 wrote:
Watch UPS offer Delta a sweet deal on the 777 and we convert them to 777F. Just like Delta MD-11.

UPS has NO 777 aircraft. I can't see UPS buying any of Delta's 777. Also why does Delta have a mix of Rolls Royce and GE powered 777? The way I seem to see it as they are following NO special pattern as they are at random serial numbers mixed in the listing shown in Rizjets.net. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4719
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 4:19 am

ups757 wrote:
Watch UPS offer Delta a sweet deal on the 777 and we convert them to 777F. Just like Delta MD-11.


UPS got a whopping 3 from delta. 3 more ex delta from World.

FedEx got 9.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 6:22 am

MrHMSH wrote:
jayunited wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
It was said earlier on this forum that part of the problem was the diversion, the diversion was BNE which would have made life difficult for the A350, but now that CBR is possible the issue is resolved. Otherwise it could be that DL's birds are (were?) 268T. If DL went for the 275T version (or obviously the 280T) then there's no issue, the A359 should carry more payload both ways SYD-LAX.

Why weren't A359s used to SYD before? If you have them you have to fly the 77Ls somewhere, so might as well be on a route where you can use its enormous payload potential.



What you are saying makes no sense at all, even the earlier versions of the A359 are more capable than any 789 UA operates. The diversion to BNE would have made life difficult for a A359 but not a 789? UA has diverted into BNE multiple times especially during the summer time when thunderstorms fire up and cause a last minute diversion. UA also uses a 789 on LAX-MEL although on that flight the amount of cargo is reduced to around 10,000 - 15,000 pounds if the flight is full. LAX-MEL is further than LAX-SYD, but yet you expect people to believe DL's A359s could not handle LAX-SYD because the diversion airport would have made life difficult which really means it would cause weight restriction. Was DL moving 40,000+ pounds of cargo on this flight every night?




I'm passing on the speculation, unfortunately I can't say with any certainty what restrictions there are on the A350 for SYD. BNE may well have been an issue for the 789 as well, but if CBR has always been available to UA then there would be no need for it.

I would imagine that DL was getting very good cargo loads to SYD, because that's what the 77L excels at, but I wouldn't know where to find data for how much they carried.

For the record, I have always been in the camp that thinks the A359 can make SYD-LAX both ways with full passenger load and room for some cargo.




I agree with you. The A359 can do LAX-SYD with meaningful cargo. The only route I could see a potential problem is JNB-ATL. JNB is over 5,000 ft, hot, and the flight is obviously west bound. I think the A359 can do it with full pax and bags but any cargo might be tough.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
tealnz
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 6:44 am

qf789 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
tealnz wrote:

UA reportedly canned the LAX-SYD because the 789 struggled westbound when seasonal winds were at their peak. The new higher MTOW 280t A350s with the improved aero won’t have that problem.


Regardless that UA never "canned" LAX-SYD pre-COVID, and no-one has any clue what will happen post-COVID, Jayunited is one of only a handful of posters on this site who would know what cargo payload United carry on any given route. If he/she says that United routinely carry 20-25,000 lbs then you can probably take that to the bank.


tealnz was referring to LAX-SIN not LAX-SYD


Whoops. Of course you’re right. Brain fade.
 
LawAndOrder
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:56 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 6:54 am

US319 wrote:
DL future longhaul widebody fleet will be 330/350. It seems many people cannot Accept that. Re the alleged killer deal. Airbus could even offer a better deal as Proven by Boeing - UA.


You aren’t accounting for 767 replacement. All routes can’t support a 333/339 the 332 imho cost to much to operate and will go. If DL had faith in them they would have bought more or 338 to replace the 767s. I don’t think DL has given up on Boeing but something tells me it won’t be a 787 - but I’ve been wrong before.
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1909
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 9:52 am

ILikeTrains wrote:
Yea its daily at this point. Lots of cargo being shuffled around.


Three weeks ago I was a bit surprised to see two DL 777's sitting on the apron at FRA in the morning, but I was not close enough to see if they were 77E's, 77L's or a mix of both types.
 
LHA320
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:27 am

SQ22 wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
Yea its daily at this point. Lots of cargo being shuffled around.


Three weeks ago I was a bit surprised to see two DL 777's sitting on the apron at FRA in the morning, but I was not close enough to see if they were 77E's, 77L's or a mix of both types.


They schedule both types on ORD-FRA. Sometimes there are two 77E (mostly ships 7001 and 7007) sometimes two 77L (mostly ships 7102, 7108 or 7109). But having one 77E and 77L here in FRA at the same time never happened.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
jagraham
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:53 pm

SLCUT2777 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:


Once more A339's come on board, they're off to the desert as well.


Yes, but as DL is disciplined in capital spending, and considering the move to retire the 777s, which require getting more A350s, it will take years.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 12:55 pm

ups757 wrote:
Watch UPS offer Delta a sweet deal on the 777 and we convert them to 777F. Just like Delta MD-11.

There isn’t a STC nor program to convert a 772 to a cargo plane. Only the 773.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:00 pm

Not sure I can understand why you think an airline doing anything they can during a crisis to generate any revenue is odd. There is a lack of belly freight space with all of the cancellations that have taken place. As result all of the airlines are vying for any cargo contracts they can get to help pay the bills. There is nothing ODD about DL flying a cargo flight FRA ORD at this time.





pwm2txlhopper wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:

All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.


ORD and FRA are two of the largest cargo hubs in the world.

Yes, I know that.

If it was UA or AA metal, I wouldn’t even bat an eye. DL metal, especially 777LR, just kind of unexpected on ORD-FRA.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8300
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:30 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Fair enough - point still stands that DL making an order for Boeing aircraft wouldn't be bad politically/PR IMO.


IMHO, yes, it would be bad PR. Building from catiii's remarks, it would play out as 'We gave Delta $10 Billion, they lay off 30K people, and they have money for new planes!!!?

It wouldn't matter if the planes are Boeing (nor Airbus built in Mobile). It wouldn't matter that it's $4 Billion grant and probably $6 Billion loans. It wouldn't matter if the first deliveries were at least three years away. Few U.S. news outlets trade in detail and nuance. It would be a 20-second Fox News soundbite laced with outrage and contempt - not just for Delta, but for those big-spending Washington Bureaucrats who were stupid enough to write the bad law that allowed it.
 
kavok
Posts: 846
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:40 pm

No one knows how long this situation will last, even the best and most knowledgeable minds at Virginia Ave. Similarly, no one knows for sure which airlines will survive, and in what capacity. No one knows what impact this will have on fuel prices, and what restrictions there may be on travel going forward. Point being, the future of commercial air travel has a lot of unknowns, and it is not just the question of when passenger demand returns to “normal”. Arguably, those other questions are even more difficult to predict at this point, and will be far more impactful on developing a future fleet plan long term.

My argument is with that many different unknowns, Delta is not going to commit to any long term fleet plans at this time. Obviously retiring the 777s and reducing some of the other fleet types will help in the near term addressing the reduced demand. But any deal with Boeing or Airbus, making fleet swaps, or commitments to taking on new planes (beyond what is already on order) is probably not going to happen near term. Delta is most likely going to wait and see how this thing shakes out before making those longer term decisions.

The next 12 months will tell a lot on which airlines survive, and where the long term demand (and growth opportunities) will be in the future. The crystal ball will get clearer in the next year or so, but it is really hazy now. So don’t expect any long term decisions soon, but more short term decisions to get through the crisis. Future fleet flexibility is key at this point, and Delta is not going to want to get backed into a corner by commuting to some deal when the future is very much unknown. Once it is clearer where the best opportunities and needs will be post crisis, Delta will want the flexibility to build their new fleet accordingly.
Last edited by kavok on Sat May 16, 2020 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3150
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 1:50 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
ups757 wrote:
Watch UPS offer Delta a sweet deal on the 777 and we convert them to 777F. Just like Delta MD-11.

UPS has NO 777 aircraft. I can't see UPS buying any of Delta's 777. Also why does Delta have a mix of Rolls Royce and GE powered 777? The way I seem to see it as they are following NO special pattern as they are at random serial numbers mixed in the listing shown in Rizjets.net. :old:

Why the mixed RR GE fleet? There was no choice on the 777LR. Only the GE90 was offered.
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 2:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Fair enough - point still stands that DL making an order for Boeing aircraft wouldn't be bad politically/PR IMO.


IMHO, yes, it would be bad PR. Building from catiii's remarks, it would play out as 'We gave Delta $10 Billion, they lay off 30K people, and they have money for new planes!!!?

It wouldn't matter if the planes are Boeing (nor Airbus built in Mobile). It wouldn't matter that it's $4 Billion grant and probably $6 Billion loans. It wouldn't matter if the first deliveries were at least three years away. Few U.S. news outlets trade in detail and nuance. It would be a 20-second Fox News soundbite laced with outrage and contempt - not just for Delta, but for those big-spending Washington Bureaucrats who were stupid enough to write the bad law that allowed it.


If DL orders this year, it will be an order for an unidentified customer until 2022. :stirthepot:

Now sure how plane purchases work - can DL sign an MOU with A or B, with the price locked, in, but do no firm anything but the price until the finance improves? (Even the down payment)
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 2:41 pm

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Internally, at DL 75/76 are common fleet, 764 excepted. Hence removing the 777 gains flight ops efficiencies, rather than a slimmer 75/76 fleet which will also see older birds beer-canned IMHO. Keeping an entire fleet of 18 jets for one maybe two routes will never offset the actual fleet cost. Again, I’m fairly confident DL knows what they’re doing here.


They’re ALL a common fleet. They’re separate categories: 765 and 7ER. The 350s are more efficient for the same mission, and the 20% CASM benefit in an environment where there is little international demand Is the driver.

That’s what I said. Separate for flight ops, scheduling etc. Parking the 777 rather than a handful of 7ERs reduces the number of categories, as does MD going away. The fleet jumble across the big 3 seems to slowly be smoothing out. In a different world, Delta could have found a use for United’s 767-400 fleet.
 
ytib
Posts: 586
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:22 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 3:19 pm

flyinghippo wrote:

If DL orders this year, it will be an order for an unidentified customer until 2022. :stirthepot:

Now sure how plane purchases work - can DL sign an MOU with A or B, with the price locked, in, but do no firm anything but the price until the finance improves? (Even the down payment)


They could do that as a private company, but not one traded publicly.
318, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 388, 707, 717, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73Q, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 739, 752, 753, 742, 74L, 744, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, 789, 142, CN1, CR2, CR7, DC8, DH2, DH8, D8Q, D10, D95, EM2, ER3, ER4, E70, 100, J31, M11, M83, M88, M90, SF3
 
bennett123
Posts: 9822
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 4:28 pm

What are the hour/cycle limits on the B777?.

Are any numbers available for DL?.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 6:05 pm

jayunited wrote:
tealnz wrote:
UA reportedly canned the LAX-SYD because the 789 struggled westbound when seasonal winds were at their peak. The new higher MTOW 280t A350s with the improved aero won’t have that problem.


UA canned LAX-SYD on a 789? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shakehead:
When exactly was UA's passenger service on this route LAX-SYD route canned was it before or after COVID-19?

Then explain to me how UA prior to COVID-19 was flying year around service IAH-SYD and LAX-MEL? Surely if UA's 789s could not handle LAX-SYD westbound when winds were at their peak then those same 789s would never have been able to fly LAX-MEL or IAH-SYD. Also why then is UA now operating several weekly cargo charters LAX-SYD-LAX, this in addition to our regularly schedule passenger service SFO-SYD-SFO which operates daily?

Perhaps you may want to do some research before posting especially if you don't know what you are talking about.

There were subsequent posts where this was cleared up; tealnz meant to refer to LAX-SIN:

tealnz wrote:
qf789 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

Regardless that UA never "canned" LAX-SYD pre-COVID, and no-one has any clue what will happen post-COVID, Jayunited is one of only a handful of posters on this site who would know what cargo payload United carry on any given route. If he/she says that United routinely carry 20-25,000 lbs then you can probably take that to the bank.


tealnz was referring to LAX-SIN not LAX-SYD


Whoops. Of course you’re right. Brain fade.


V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 9:41 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Internally, at DL 75/76 are common fleet, 764 excepted. Hence removing the 777 gains flight ops efficiencies, rather than a slimmer 75/76 fleet which will also see older birds beer-canned IMHO. Keeping an entire fleet of 18 jets for one maybe two routes will never offset the actual fleet cost. Again, I’m fairly confident DL knows what they’re doing here.


They’re ALL a common fleet. They’re separate categories: 765 and 7ER. The 350s are more efficient for the same mission, and the 20% CASM benefit in an environment where there is little international demand Is the driver.

That’s what I said. Separate for flight ops, scheduling etc. Parking the 777 rather than a handful of 7ERs reduces the number of categories, as does MD going away. The fleet jumble across the big 3 seems to slowly be smoothing out. In a different world, Delta could have found a use for United’s 767-400 fleet.


No that’s not what you said. You said the 764 is not common with the ER and the 757/767 which was inaccurate.

And the driver for retiring the 777s wasn’t because they were looking for a reduction in the number of categories. It was a CASM issue. If the 777 had the same CASM as the 350 it wouldn’t have been as cut and dry.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1531
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 9:51 pm

jayunited wrote:
I've always thought the A359 was much more capable than the 789, so I've never understood why DL did not place the A359 on this route. Now in a memo posted they are saying the problem has been fixed, but what problem is DL referring to? Prior to COVID-19 SQ used a standard A359 on SIN-SFO-SIN, side note UA 789s SIN-SFO could carry a full passenger load and around 15,000 pounds of cargo. I wish someone could explain what the problem was DL faced with their A359s and how it was fixed.

Could RR and Airbus have 'cracked' two conundrums of great relevance right now, and could DL be the first customer, albeit the quid pro quo being firm orders and deliveries remain firm (or even firmer)?

Two parts of PBTH maintenance, variable and fixed costs. The envelope has been pushed by EK, HiFly and A340 RR operators with Pay As You Go (PAYG) PBTH, with penalties for engine use outside 'life optimising profiles'.

Has RR offered DL PAYG PBTH with penalties AND rewards based on cycles, hours, stage length, reverse thrust, start-up, etc, reducing the fixed component, increasing the customer controllable variable component, and overall potentially reducing total engine costs? Until now, PAYG has rewarded low / intermittent use, whereas this formula rewards / encourages use.

Has it been linked to another 'feature' under discussion with airworthiness authorities, making every TOW the MTOW allowing flight specific de-rates, translating to lower CORSIA values (the initial driver), but also ATC, landing and other charges (COVID), as well as scaleable engine maintenance charges?

Could the finesse of such charging expand A350 viability into A330 territory. If rolled out to the A330, negate or delay the need for a new Boeing model or A322. If offered on the A320 family (unlikely - PW and GE data and PBTH tools are not in the same place), could the A220 be in peril?

Some customers are asking for Pay By The Hour for new aircraft deliveries. For the entire aircraft, not just engines. While commercial aviation is in the doldrums, creative minds are taking commercial aircraft financing to new levels.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 9:59 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
If DL plays their cards right, they can really come out as the carrier with the most efficient fleet by the end of the decade. Boeing is dying for orders. DL might press Boeing into a killer deal


Hard to see a killer deal going down in 2020 for new planes by a US carrier.

Politicians would run an investigation and headlines would say delta used federal money to buy new planes. We all know not really true but it would be a PR nightmare. The media would have a field day. "Delta lays of 30,000 plus workers in October , takes federal money and buys new planes with your money" would be the headline. Again We all know that's not true but they would get raked over the coals for this by the media and politicians. Even if it's an interesting idea I cannot see any chance of it really happening


Delta will not be laying off 30,000 workers come October. Trust me (fingers crossed)
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:18 pm

Can someone provide some insights into this?

The airline said in a filing Thursday it expects to post a $1.4 billion to $1.7 billion pretax charge in the second quarter because of the MD-90 and Boeing 777 retirements.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/14/coronavirus-news-delta-to-retire-boeing-777s-seeks-to-burn-zero-cash-by-end-of-2020.html

What are some of the things that are included in the pretax charge?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos