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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 pm

flee wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
Yes but DL is going to eventually need to order a smaller narrow body replacement. Looking at the current fleet retirement projections, DL has no planned replacements for the MD-88s/90, 717s, and A320s most are 20+ years old and will need replacement soon. Might as well put orders in now to take advantage of deals and have delivery set up to be positioned when demand returns.

That's what the A220 is for. They can order more when the time comes. I think DL will easily become the largest operator of the type.

DL will be taking deliveries of their first A220-300s soon - I think their A220s will fit in with the new normal for the smaller aviation industry. One thing most airlines will find out - deliveries from the OEMs will be quicker because their backlog has been trimmed due to order cancellations. The need to rush to order will not be necessary. Besides, if need be, they can just hold on to their existing fleet for just a little while longer.


Wouldn’t be surprised a bit to see a bunch of the older 319/320s go in the not too distant future. A223 makes the older 319s a bit redundant given smaller will be better for a while. As things pick up a bit grab some new A320Neos at a good price to fill the gap to the 321s. The long range 321s can do Hawai’i from the west coast and hopping the pond in a narrowbody is over. 753 might be the right plane for a while when the larger markets open up a bit. Maybe. Really wish there was a plane in this space between the 75 and 76. I see a 763 dumping in the not too distant future as well if international doesn’t bounce back in at least some meaningful way. Use the -400s for Hawaii, they can hit Hawai’i from all the hubs with that.

I’m sure they are grinding away looking at the entire network. May not be a bad time to scuttle or significantly downsize MSP, then boost SLC to hit the Midwest with the 220’s from the west and cover the same area through DTW from the East. Criss cross the area in between for the markets that are big enough. A220, if used at SLC would work really well for coverage.

Then again, this thing goes on much longer I don’t think any plans will matter much for a really long time.
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par13del
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:31 pm

So the assumption is that DL will not delay deliveries of the A220, they are conserving cash to make the final payments on delivery?
 
N649DL
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:36 pm

DL717 wrote:
flee wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
That's what the A220 is for. They can order more when the time comes. I think DL will easily become the largest operator of the type.

DL will be taking deliveries of their first A220-300s soon - I think their A220s will fit in with the new normal for the smaller aviation industry. One thing most airlines will find out - deliveries from the OEMs will be quicker because their backlog has been trimmed due to order cancellations. The need to rush to order will not be necessary. Besides, if need be, they can just hold on to their existing fleet for just a little while longer.


Wouldn’t be surprised a bit to see a bunch of the older 319/320s go in the not too distant future. A223 makes the older 319s a bit redundant given smaller will be better for a while. As things pick up a bit grab some new A320Neos at a good price to fill the gap to the 321s. The long range 321s can do Hawai’i from the west coast and hopping the pond in a narrowbody is over. 753 might be the right plane for a while when the larger markets open up a bit. Maybe. Really wish there was a plane in this space between the 75 and 76. I see a 763 dumping in the not too distant future as well if international doesn’t bounce back in at least some meaningful way. Use the -400s for Hawaii, they can hit Hawai’i from all the hubs with that.

I’m sure they are grinding away looking at the entire network. May not be a bad time to scuttle or significantly downsize MSP, then boost SLC to hit the Midwest with the 220’s from the west and cover the same area through DTW from the East. Criss cross the area in between for the markets that are big enough. A220, if used at SLC would work really well for coverage.

Then again, this thing goes on much longer I don’t think any plans will matter much for a really long time.


Actually I think the 319 and *most* of the 320 are safe for the most part. They are all refurbished nose-to-tail and are a good size to re-introduce the traveling public, when ready. Note that before COVID a lot of the LAX routes were upgraded to these types from E170s like LAX-AUS and LAX-DEN, for example.
 
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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:45 pm

N649DL wrote:
DL717 wrote:
flee wrote:
DL will be taking deliveries of their first A220-300s soon - I think their A220s will fit in with the new normal for the smaller aviation industry. One thing most airlines will find out - deliveries from the OEMs will be quicker because their backlog has been trimmed due to order cancellations. The need to rush to order will not be necessary. Besides, if need be, they can just hold on to their existing fleet for just a little while longer.


Wouldn’t be surprised a bit to see a bunch of the older 319/320s go in the not too distant future. A223 makes the older 319s a bit redundant given smaller will be better for a while. As things pick up a bit grab some new A320Neos at a good price to fill the gap to the 321s. The long range 321s can do Hawai’i from the west coast and hopping the pond in a narrowbody is over. 753 might be the right plane for a while when the larger markets open up a bit. Maybe. Really wish there was a plane in this space between the 75 and 76. I see a 763 dumping in the not too distant future as well if international doesn’t bounce back in at least some meaningful way. Use the -400s for Hawaii, they can hit Hawai’i from all the hubs with that.

I’m sure they are grinding away looking at the entire network. May not be a bad time to scuttle or significantly downsize MSP, then boost SLC to hit the Midwest with the 220’s from the west and cover the same area through DTW from the East. Criss cross the area in between for the markets that are big enough. A220, if used at SLC would work really well for coverage.

Then again, this thing goes on much longer I don’t think any plans will matter much for a really long time.


Actually I think the 319 and *most* of the 320 are safe for the most part. They are all refurbished nose-to-tail and are a good size to re-introduce the traveling public, when ready. Note that before COVID a lot of the LAX routes were upgraded to these types from E170s like LAX-AUS and LAX-DEN, for example.


Not sure I agree. 30% of the 319s are parked and all 320s are parked.
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N649DL
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:52 pm

DL717 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Wouldn’t be surprised a bit to see a bunch of the older 319/320s go in the not too distant future. A223 makes the older 319s a bit redundant given smaller will be better for a while. As things pick up a bit grab some new A320Neos at a good price to fill the gap to the 321s. The long range 321s can do Hawai’i from the west coast and hopping the pond in a narrowbody is over. 753 might be the right plane for a while when the larger markets open up a bit. Maybe. Really wish there was a plane in this space between the 75 and 76. I see a 763 dumping in the not too distant future as well if international doesn’t bounce back in at least some meaningful way. Use the -400s for Hawaii, they can hit Hawai’i from all the hubs with that.

I’m sure they are grinding away looking at the entire network. May not be a bad time to scuttle or significantly downsize MSP, then boost SLC to hit the Midwest with the 220’s from the west and cover the same area through DTW from the East. Criss cross the area in between for the markets that are big enough. A220, if used at SLC would work really well for coverage.

Then again, this thing goes on much longer I don’t think any plans will matter much for a really long time.


Actually I think the 319 and *most* of the 320 are safe for the most part. They are all refurbished nose-to-tail and are a good size to re-introduce the traveling public, when ready. Note that before COVID a lot of the LAX routes were upgraded to these types from E170s like LAX-AUS and LAX-DEN, for example.


Not sure I agree. 30% of the 319s are parked and all 320s are parked.


Well, if we want to go by parked planes, there are only 7 active 767s in the fleet right now according to planespotters.net.
 
B757Forever
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 10:56 pm

smartplane wrote:
jayunited wrote:
I've always thought the A359 was much more capable than the 789, so I've never understood why DL did not place the A359 on this route. Now in a memo posted they are saying the problem has been fixed, but what problem is DL referring to? Prior to COVID-19 SQ used a standard A359 on SIN-SFO-SIN, side note UA 789s SIN-SFO could carry a full passenger load and around 15,000 pounds of cargo. I wish someone could explain what the problem was DL faced with their A359s and how it was fixed.

Could RR and Airbus have 'cracked' two conundrums of great relevance right now, and could DL be the first customer, albeit the quid pro quo being firm orders and deliveries remain firm (or even firmer)?

Two parts of PBTH maintenance, variable and fixed costs. The envelope has been pushed by EK, HiFly and A340 RR operators with Pay As You Go (PAYG) PBTH, with penalties for engine use outside 'life optimising profiles'.

Has RR offered DL PAYG PBTH with penalties AND rewards based on cycles, hours, stage length, reverse thrust, start-up, etc, reducing the fixed component, increasing the customer controllable variable component, and overall potentially reducing total engine costs? Until now, PAYG has rewarded low / intermittent use, whereas this formula rewards / encourages use.

Has it been linked to another 'feature' under discussion with airworthiness authorities, making every TOW the MTOW allowing flight specific de-rates, translating to lower CORSIA values (the initial driver), but also ATC, landing and other charges (COVID), as well as scaleable engine maintenance charges?

Could the finesse of such charging expand A350 viability into A330 territory. If rolled out to the A330, negate or delay the need for a new Boeing model or A322. If offered on the A320 family (unlikely - PW and GE data and PBTH tools are not in the same place), could the A220 be in peril?

Some customers are asking for Pay By The Hour for new aircraft deliveries. For the entire aircraft, not just engines. While commercial aviation is in the doldrums, creative minds are taking commercial aircraft financing to new levels.


DL is not a PBTH customer because they have an engine partnership with Rolls Royce to service the Trent variants on the A350, A330neo, 787 and A380 to perform work on DL engines as well as customer engines for Rolls Royce. DL's aircraft purchasing decisions are influenced as a result. DL is also developing a similar partnership with Pratt & Whitney to service the geared fan engines on the A220 and the A32Xneo series. See a trend here...?
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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Aesma
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 11:30 pm

About the A359 capabilities for SYD and JNB discussed on page one, since DL has orders for A350s 5 years and more into the future, could we see them taking delivery of aircraft with higher thrust/MTOW by then ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
TonyClifton
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 11:30 pm

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:

They’re ALL a common fleet. They’re separate categories: 765 and 7ER. The 350s are more efficient for the same mission, and the 20% CASM benefit in an environment where there is little international demand Is the driver.

That’s what I said. Separate for flight ops, scheduling etc. Parking the 777 rather than a handful of 7ERs reduces the number of categories, as does MD going away. The fleet jumble across the big 3 seems to slowly be smoothing out. In a different world, Delta could have found a use for United’s 767-400 fleet.


No that’s not what you said. You said the 764 is not common with the ER and the 757/767 which was inaccurate.

And the driver for retiring the 777s wasn’t because they were looking for a reduction in the number of categories. It was a CASM issue. If the 777 had the same CASM as the 350 it wouldn’t have been as cut and dry.

Depends on what department you’re talking about. I’m purely speaking flight ops, 765 and 7ER categories. I’m not into pedantic arguments. Fleet v category, sure, can look at it a variety of ways.

777 was an expensive fleet for 18 planes. If CASM was an issue, they’d drop them to 10 abreast. CASM isn’t be all end all. With 39 350s on order/delivered they can shoulder the burden of the 777 fleet. Very specialized plane for less common missions. Previously did some of the heavier crossings from JFK such as TLV, which went 333 when the 242T models came. Great plane, but more niche than needed.
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat May 16, 2020 11:45 pm

questions wrote:
Can someone provide some insights into this?

The airline said in a filing Thursday it expects to post a $1.4 billion to $1.7 billion pretax charge in the second quarter because of the MD-90 and Boeing 777 retirements.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/14/coronavirus-news-delta-to-retire-boeing-777s-seeks-to-burn-zero-cash-by-end-of-2020.html

What are some of the things that are included in the pretax charge?


Depreciation, expenses that are amortized, etc. (say you had 5 years left to take the one-time expense of acquisition, you have to accelerate that amount and take it at once. In addition, you have to remove the value of the asset from your balance sheets, etc.
 
catiii
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:33 am

TonyClifton wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
That’s what I said. Separate for flight ops, scheduling etc. Parking the 777 rather than a handful of 7ERs reduces the number of categories, as does MD going away. The fleet jumble across the big 3 seems to slowly be smoothing out. In a different world, Delta could have found a use for United’s 767-400 fleet.


No that’s not what you said. You said the 764 is not common with the ER and the 757/767 which was inaccurate.

And the driver for retiring the 777s wasn’t because they were looking for a reduction in the number of categories. It was a CASM issue. If the 777 had the same CASM as the 350 it wouldn’t have been as cut and dry.

Depends on what department you’re talking about. I’m purely speaking flight ops, 765 and 7ER categories. I’m not into pedantic arguments. Fleet v category, sure, can look at it a variety of ways.

777 was an expensive fleet for 18 planes. If CASM was an issue, they’d drop them to 10 abreast. CASM isn’t be all end all. With 39 350s on order/delivered they can shoulder the burden of the 777 fleet. Very specialized plane for less common missions. Previously did some of the heavier crossings from JFK such as TLV, which went 333 when the 242T models came. Great plane, but more niche than needed.


Depends on what department I’m taking about? What does that even mean? It’s a common fleet type. Period. You’re the one trying to parse words now because you’re factually wrong.

You’re also factually wrong when you say CASM wasn’t the issue, and when you say CASM isn’t the be all end all. You clearly have never worked at an airline.

Let me quote you Ed’s internal note:

“Our A330s and A340-900s, which are more fuel efficient and cost effective, will perform long haul international flying as demand returns.”

And then:

“Parking this fleet will provide significant cost savings over the next several years.”

And then Gil West:

“We’re making strategic, cost-effective changes to our fleet to respond to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic while also ensuring Delta is well-positioned for the recovery on the backside of the crisis.”

And then this from the press release:

“Delta will continue flying its fleet of long-haul next generation Airbus A350-900s, which burn 21% less fuel per seat than the 777s they will replace.”

So yeah, keep telling yourself it wasn’t a cost issue, and that an airplane that is the most widely ordered wide body in the world’s history with over 1600 airplanes delivered is a very specialized, niche airframe for one of the world’s biggest global airlines.
 
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flee
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:41 am

I suspect that DL is also keeping an eye on its carbon emissions image - retiring the fuel guzzlers will also reduce its carbon emissions.
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:42 am

Weren't the 77Ls fairly inefficient at anything other than near max range? At least relative to its contemporaries. Helluva capable airplane, but they were over built for the more pedestrian longhaul routes.
Last edited by PhilMcCrackin on Sun May 17, 2020 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:43 am

So did niche mean 18 a/c in a DL fleet of hundreds?
 
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par13del
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:47 am

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Weren't the 77Ls fairly inefficient at anything other than near max range? At least relative to its contemporaries.

It may have been but its cargo hauling capability did offset some of that penalty.
Bigger issue is that DL never bought into the 777, just like the 767-400, very small fleets.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 3:15 am

par13del wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Weren't the 77Ls fairly inefficient at anything other than near max range? At least relative to its contemporaries.

It may have been but its cargo hauling capability did offset some of that penalty.
Bigger issue is that DL never bought into the 777, just like the 767-400, very small fleets.

The 77Ls were efficient for 4000nm+ missions. The issue is the 789, 787-10, A359, and A330NEO are more efficient and the A333 had a lower cost per flight. If the 77L wasn't hauling, it wasn't the right choice.

The 777s at delta have minimum economy of scale.

If a few are retired fleet economics worsens. With no trunk line demand, time to retire them.

Lightsaber
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bcbhokie
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:07 am

flee wrote:
I suspect that DL is also keeping an eye on its carbon emissions image - retiring the fuel guzzlers will also reduce its carbon emissions.


If this was a priority, Delta would have prioritized fuel efficiency much sooner instead of relying on low-cost used aircraft. I really don't think this is a force driving the decisionmaking right now, although they'll certainly take credit for it as a side effect.
 
n7371f
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:11 am

Recently, even newly, refurbished planes don't matter in the present equation. Just look at the 777. The last 777 redone under the $100 million interior mod plan came out of China in late February. Now they're ll gone.

Same thing may happen with some of the 319/320 fleet. Doing so will require a smaller write down. I would anticipate many of the early 90's build 320's are done as of now.

N649DL wrote:
DL717 wrote:
flee wrote:
DL will be taking deliveries of their first A220-300s soon - I think their A220s will fit in with the new normal for the smaller aviation industry. One thing most airlines will find out - deliveries from the OEMs will be quicker because their backlog has been trimmed due to order cancellations. The need to rush to order will not be necessary. Besides, if need be, they can just hold on to their existing fleet for just a little while longer.


Wouldn’t be surprised a bit to see a bunch of the older 319/320s go in the not too distant future. A223 makes the older 319s a bit redundant given smaller will be better for a while. As things pick up a bit grab some new A320Neos at a good price to fill the gap to the 321s. The long range 321s can do Hawai’i from the west coast and hopping the pond in a narrowbody is over. 753 might be the right plane for a while when the larger markets open up a bit. Maybe. Really wish there was a plane in this space between the 75 and 76. I see a 763 dumping in the not too distant future as well if international doesn’t bounce back in at least some meaningful way. Use the -400s for Hawaii, they can hit Hawai’i from all the hubs with that.

I’m sure they are grinding away looking at the entire network. May not be a bad time to scuttle or significantly downsize MSP, then boost SLC to hit the Midwest with the 220’s from the west and cover the same area through DTW from the East. Criss cross the area in between for the markets that are big enough. A220, if used at SLC would work really well for coverage.

Then again, this thing goes on much longer I don’t think any plans will matter much for a really long time.


Actually I think the 319 and *most* of the 320 are safe for the most part. They are all refurbished nose-to-tail and are a good size to re-introduce the traveling public, when ready. Note that before COVID a lot of the LAX routes were upgraded to these types from E170s like LAX-AUS and LAX-DEN, for example.
 
questions
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:13 am

There are a lot of comments re the 77L and cargo.

What kind of cargo was DL hauling ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD?

What kind of shipments and shippers does DL (and any commercial airline for that matter) target?

Why would a shipper go to DL vs air freight company?

Although the A350 may be capable for DL’s needs, would any kind of cargo previously shipped on the 77L not be able to be shipped on the A350?
 
Williamsb747
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:57 am

questions wrote:
There are a lot of comments re the 77L and cargo.

What kind of cargo was DL hauling ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD?

What kind of shipments and shippers does DL (and any commercial airline for that matter) target?

Why would a shipper go to DL vs air freight company?

Although the A350 may be capable for DL’s needs, would any kind of cargo previously shipped on the 77L not be able to be shipped on the A350?


Cant speak on LAX-SYD but ATL-JNB carried anything from car manufacturing parts to fresh produce.

Time sensitive product generally, fresh fruit/veg, organs, critical manufacturing equipment that can cause stoppage in the manufacturing line.

Uhh don't know could range from contracts, price(or maybe direct flights?).

The issue isn't can it fit in an A350, the issue re ATL-JNB-ATL is the hot and high conditions of JNB limiting MTOW which restricts how much cargo -read weight- can be carried which affects the total revenue on a flight.

Williams
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
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DL_Mech
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 5:51 am

bennett123 wrote:

Are any numbers available for DL?.


From the FAA SDR website:

N860DA: 90562 Hours/ 11296 Cycles (Feb. 2020)

N861DA: 90521 Hours/ 10979 Cycles (Feb. 2020)

N701DN: 60879 Hours/ 5341 Cycles (Apr. 2020)

N702DN: 58781 Hours/ 5087 Cycles (Mar. 2020)
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 6:09 am

As far as JNB, given the collapse of South African, they could fly ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL, haul all the cargo they wanted to on an A350, and still by far be the best option for getting down to Johannesburg. The other existing options are that flawed. I think LAX-SYD will do just fine.

Also, on the A340-500 to 787-9 scale of fuel economy, where did the 77L fall? I get the impression that it's nowhere near as bad as the A345/A346s, but nowhere near the 787s either.
 
gloom
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 6:51 am

Hello,

Some questions would need to be answered by those who know Delta better than me. I can answer general questions, though.

questions wrote:
What kind of shipments and shippers does DL (and any commercial airline for that matter) target?
Why would a shipper go to DL vs air freight company?


DL is able to move anything where you don't care about cost (which is higher than ships/rail over distance, but still not very much - electronics, clothes, etc.) and it's not heavy cargo; it needs to fit within containers such as LD3 or LD6 for example (belly cargo).
Freight planes will take over a heavy cargo, large volume cargo, and any cargo requiring special conditions (eg food or flower).

Although the A350 may be capable for DL’s needs, would any kind of cargo previously shipped on the 77L not be able to be shipped on the A350?


I don't think so. The main difference is between 350t plane, and 280t plane. On extreme ranges, 77L will have an edge of taking more cargo than 359. Assuming passenger number is similar enough, they will be quite close in cargo up until some 11hrs flight, then 77L capabilities will not degrade for some next 4hrs (while 359 will). Beyond 15hrs, 77L advantange will start to diminish slowly, but still the difference will be significant. All at around 30% difference in fuel costs, though. So, the question for Delta is not whether they want to take cargo (they would), but which craft would generate most profit. And I guess Delta just answered that - seems the extra cargo is not worth extra cost.

Cheers,
Adam
 
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scbriml
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 7:50 am

catiii wrote:
So yeah, keep telling yourself it wasn’t a cost issue, and that an airplane that is the most widely ordered wide body in the world’s history with over 1600 airplanes delivered is a very specialized, niche airframe for one of the world’s biggest global airlines.


I'm not sure why you're being so defensive about this. The relatively small number of 777s makes it a niche airplane in DL's fleet. As such, it has no economy of scale which makes it relatively expensive.


In the circumstances, it's a smart move for DL to drop the 777 when they have the perfect, more efficient replacement already in the fleet and arriving in larger numbers.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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tys777
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:17 am

Please remember to keep posts on topic to the discussion of DL retiring the 777. Discussion on the 777X belongs in one of the threads dedicated to that aircraft.

Thanks

TYS777
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:22 am

flee wrote:
I suspect that DL is also keeping an eye on its carbon emissions image - retiring the fuel guzzlers will also reduce its carbon emissions.



Is this a joke?

Delta is literally in the fight of their lives. I hope PR stunts like carbon emission offsets (all planes have carbon emissions) are the furthest thing from the minds of those in charge
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:27 am

What is the fascination with JNB and SYD?

Both can be served with some modifications as needed.

It’s certainly not enough to warrant a separate fleet type.

If they told you tomorrow that both cities are being dropped… You wouldn’t even blink an eye. It would be a totally realistic action given the current situation
 
smartplane
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:39 am

B757Forever wrote:
DL is not a PBTH customer because they have an engine partnership with Rolls Royce to service the Trent variants on the A350, A330neo, 787 and A380 to perform work on DL engines as well as customer engines for Rolls Royce. DL's aircraft purchasing decisions are influenced as a result. DL is also developing a similar partnership with Pratt & Whitney to service the geared fan engines on the A220 and the A32Xneo series. See a trend here...?

The two are not mutually exclusive. DL is a TotalCare client with RR for the A350 and A330NEO. DL is also a RR MRO. In fact combining makes for an even better deal for the airline.

Sarcasm adds nothing to a good thread.
 
mcg
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:14 pm

It would seem to me that carrying maximum freight between JNB and ATL is absolutely not an issue for DL today. The only thing that matters is getting the cash burn to zero. Everything else can be figured out later.
 
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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:15 pm

N649DL wrote:
DL717 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Actually I think the 319 and *most* of the 320 are safe for the most part. They are all refurbished nose-to-tail and are a good size to re-introduce the traveling public, when ready. Note that before COVID a lot of the LAX routes were upgraded to these types from E170s like LAX-AUS and LAX-DEN, for example.


Not sure I agree. 30% of the 319s are parked and all 320s are parked.


Well, if we want to go by parked planes, there are only 7 active 767s in the fleet right now according to planespotters.net.


Shows their value as well.
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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:19 pm

flee wrote:
I suspect that DL is also keeping an eye on its carbon emissions image - retiring the fuel guzzlers will also reduce its carbon emissions.


I’m pretty sure this is not on the list of things they are concerned about. Dumping an aging fleet is about increased maintenance costs as things ramp up again. If they have the money to make it work, it’s simply a perfect opportunity to modernize through downsizing older aircraft.
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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:22 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
What is the fascination with JNB and SYD?

Both can be served with some modifications as needed.

It’s certainly not enough to warrant a separate fleet type.

If they told you tomorrow that both cities are being dropped… You wouldn’t even blink an eye. It would be a totally realistic action given the current situation


The recovery of these markets will be measured in years, not months. It’s a pointless discussion. Maybe they get some 777X’s to cover it later. Could be this trade in they are supposedly considering vs. the suggested MAX. I don’t see a place for the MAX at DL.

“We’ll take 10 777X (or 777-3ER) from 2025 if you let us unload the 717”. Likely the -8. It would cover the 77L space. Sitting right between the 200 and 300. Do a light config with 3-3-3 in the back.
Last edited by DL717 on Sun May 17, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:30 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
What is the fascination with JNB and SYD?

Both can be served with some modifications as needed.

It’s certainly not enough to warrant a separate fleet type.

If they told you tomorrow that both cities are being dropped… You wouldn’t even blink an eye. It would be a totally realistic action given the current situation

Actually JNB is one of DL’s most profitable routes. Delta prints gold both ways on this route, we shouldn’t be surprised if this route actually returns July 2nd like it says in the system.
 
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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:45 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
What is the fascination with JNB and SYD?

Both can be served with some modifications as needed.

It’s certainly not enough to warrant a separate fleet type.

If they told you tomorrow that both cities are being dropped… You wouldn’t even blink an eye. It would be a totally realistic action given the current situation

Actually JNB is one of DL’s most profitable routes. Delta prints gold both ways on this route, we shouldn’t be surprised if this route actually returns July 2nd like it says in the system.


Not anymore they don’t. Not for quite a while. With the 777’s retired, they don’t think so either.
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Dalmd88
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 2:59 pm

The common thread here is the shock of the 777 fleet being retired,

Remember something Ed said, We will be retiring any planes or fleets that are within five years of retirement. That to me say the days for the 777 fleet were numbered way back in January. We just did not know it yet. I bet the Latam A350 deal was the final nail.
 
US319
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 3:48 pm

DL officially stated that JNB and SYD will resume with the 350. Yet people still discuss otherwise.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:18 pm

DL717 wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
What is the fascination with JNB and SYD?

Both can be served with some modifications as needed.

It’s certainly not enough to warrant a separate fleet type.

If they told you tomorrow that both cities are being dropped… You wouldn’t even blink an eye. It would be a totally realistic action given the current situation

Actually JNB is one of DL’s most profitable routes. Delta prints gold both ways on this route, we shouldn’t be surprised if this route actually returns July 2nd like it says in the system.


Not anymore they don’t. Not for quite a while. With the 777’s retired, they don’t think so either.

The A359 having lower cost is gonna mitigate the lower demand. Also it’s been stated by DL themselves that those two cities will get the 359.....
 
questions
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:22 pm

Williamsb747 wrote:
questions wrote:
There are a lot of comments re the 77L and cargo.

What kind of cargo was DL hauling ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD?

What kind of shipments and shippers does DL (and any commercial airline for that matter) target?

Why would a shipper go to DL vs air freight company?

Although the A350 may be capable for DL’s needs, would any kind of cargo previously shipped on the 77L not be able to be shipped on the A350?


Cant speak on LAX-SYD but ATL-JNB carried anything from car manufacturing parts to fresh produce.

Time sensitive product generally, fresh fruit/veg, organs, critical manufacturing equipment that can cause stoppage in the manufacturing line.

Uhh don't know could range from contracts, price(or maybe direct flights?).

The issue isn't can it fit in an A350, the issue re ATL-JNB-ATL is the hot and high conditions of JNB limiting MTOW which restricts how much cargo -read weight- can be carried which affects the total revenue on a flight.

Williams


Thanks.
 
jordanh
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:27 pm

DL717 wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Actually JNB is one of DL’s most profitable routes. Delta prints gold both ways on this route, we shouldn’t be surprised if this route actually returns July 2nd like it says in the system.

Not anymore they don’t. Not for quite a while. With the 777’s retired, they don’t think so either.


The announcement says Delta will retire the 777 "by the end of the year". The ATL-JNB flight still shows the 777 flying that route in July.

These are not mutually exclusive.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 4:36 pm

jordanh wrote:
DL717 wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Actually JNB is one of DL’s most profitable routes. Delta prints gold both ways on this route, we shouldn’t be surprised if this route actually returns July 2nd like it says in the system.

Not anymore they don’t. Not for quite a while. With the 777’s retired, they don’t think so either.


The announcement says Delta will retire the 777 "by the end of the year". The ATL-JNB flight still shows the 777 flying that route in July.

These are not mutually exclusive.

Yep, it’ll immediately switch to the 359 in 2021. The 777 will fly that route until 2021, that’s of course if the route comes back this year.
 
ewt340
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 5:10 pm

SLCUT2777 wrote:
Predicting DL will retire all Boeing aircraft and be strictly an Airbus user by 2025-29


Not necceseraly, unless the MAX never fly again. Then yes, they would. But they are big enough to use narrobody from both manufacturer.

Although, if Airbus got some trick up its sleeves by giving DL exclusive deals for switching to all airbus by giving 50% discount for any new products they buy.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 5:19 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
The common thread here is the shock of the 777 fleet being retired,

Remember something Ed said, We will be retiring any planes or fleets that are within five years of retirement. That to me say the days for the 777 fleet were numbered way back in January. We just did not know it yet. I bet the Latam A350 deal was the final nail.

Yeah, with the A350 order in 2014, it was set in motion long ago, LATAM solidified it, and this just accelerated it. Future deliveries may be timed nicely to coincide with international rebuild. Cut the widebody fat now, get lean and efficient, and grow from there.

Building a critical mass of A359s post-COVID will be a more efficient structure than a mix of 359 and orphan fleet 777s. The 777 was marginalized once the 242T 330s became a thing, as opposed to the -200ER. Now 359 developments allow it to cut into the -200LR role at DL. Who really knows, there are likely at any moment dozens of hypothetical plans, and this one was the one grabbed.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 778
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 7:16 pm

I found this article on The Points Guy which does a good job of tying together Delta's recent fleet and basing adjustments:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-air ... -base-lax/

Pre-COVID, the only A350 base was located at DTW, but by the end of the year Delta will open additional A350 bases at ATL and LAX to replace their B777 bases.
 
KFTG
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 7:43 pm

When I used to work for Delta, at the time they were shipping the Trent engines to AA to get refurbished. Surely this factored into the decision too, i.e. not in Delta's interest at all to provide revenue to a direct competitor.
 
Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 8:36 pm

smartplane wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
DL is not a PBTH customer because they have an engine partnership with Rolls Royce to service the Trent variants on the A350, A330neo, 787 and A380 to perform work on DL engines as well as customer engines for Rolls Royce. DL's aircraft purchasing decisions are influenced as a result. DL is also developing a similar partnership with Pratt & Whitney to service the geared fan engines on the A220 and the A32Xneo series. See a trend here...?

The two are not mutually exclusive. DL is a TotalCare client with RR for the A350 and A330NEO. DL is also a RR MRO. In fact combining makes for an even better deal for the airline.

Sarcasm adds nothing to a good thread.


Yep, MRO aspect is forgotten in some arguments. Last time Delta and GE were lockstep was their first post-merge A330ceo order. Everything else since had been formally tied to shop deals.

Certainly the world has changed, 77L only had GE and Delta was it's usual Boeing and GE mantra pre-merge. Maybe some people feel stunned the 777 isn't a flagship anymore, or they never rode on an A350 to realize how much superior that plane is to today's standards.

Payload of the 77L isn't the largest factor anymore in this era.
 
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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 8:43 pm

jordanh wrote:
DL717 wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Actually JNB is one of DL’s most profitable routes. Delta prints gold both ways on this route, we shouldn’t be surprised if this route actually returns July 2nd like it says in the system.

Not anymore they don’t. Not for quite a while. With the 777’s retired, they don’t think so either.


The announcement says Delta will retire the 777 "by the end of the year". The ATL-JNB flight still shows the 777 flying that route in July.

These are not mutually exclusive.


There’s a lot of stuff showing in schedules that are never going to occur. They are changing schedules right now in about 6 week increments. They show about 140,000 flights for July and that’s not happening. They are under 40,000 right now.
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USAirALB
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 10:12 pm

I never understood why DL had such a small fleet of 777-200ERs (not counting their LRs). When they were delivered back in the late 1990s/early 2000s, what was there intended purpose? I seem to recall they were using the 764s on domestic high-density routes exclusively during this time (Hawaii, Florida, Hub-Hub, California).
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United1
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 10:40 pm

USAirALB wrote:
I never understood why DL had such a small fleet of 777-200ERs (not counting their LRs). When they were delivered back in the late 1990s/early 2000s, what was there intended purpose? I seem to recall they were using the 764s on domestic high-density routes exclusively during this time (Hawaii, Florida, Hub-Hub, California).


They were basically the MD-11 replacement but IIRC there were some issues with the pilots agreeing on a rate to fly the things so initial deliveries were delayed. DL never really had a chance to build up a 777 fleet pre 9/11 and then bankruptcy.

If you take a look at DLs network back then the only route they really needed the 777 range/capacity on was ATL-NRT. Everything else could be served by 763/764 and L10 aircraft.
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TonyClifton
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 10:52 pm

United1 wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I never understood why DL had such a small fleet of 777-200ERs (not counting their LRs). When they were delivered back in the late 1990s/early 2000s, what was there intended purpose? I seem to recall they were using the 764s on domestic high-density routes exclusively during this time (Hawaii, Florida, Hub-Hub, California).


They were basically the MD-11 replacement but IIRC there were some issues with the pilots agreeing on a rate to fly the things so initial deliveries were delayed. DL never really had a chance to build up a 777 fleet pre 9/11 and then bankruptcy.

If you take a look at DLs network back then the only route they really needed the 777 range/capacity on was ATL-NRT. Everything else could be served by 763/764 and L10 aircraft.

How many 777s were on order pre 9/11? I recall there were maybe two dozen 767-400 options that fell by the wayside afterwards. Would have looked a different operation.
 
United1
Posts: 4164
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:04 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
United1 wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I never understood why DL had such a small fleet of 777-200ERs (not counting their LRs). When they were delivered back in the late 1990s/early 2000s, what was there intended purpose? I seem to recall they were using the 764s on domestic high-density routes exclusively during this time (Hawaii, Florida, Hub-Hub, California).


They were basically the MD-11 replacement but IIRC there were some issues with the pilots agreeing on a rate to fly the things so initial deliveries were delayed. DL never really had a chance to build up a 777 fleet pre 9/11 and then bankruptcy.

If you take a look at DLs network back then the only route they really needed the 777 range/capacity on was ATL-NRT. Everything else could be served by 763/764 and L10 aircraft.

How many 777s were on order pre 9/11? I recall there were maybe two dozen 767-400 options that fell by the wayside afterwards. Would have looked a different operation.


DLs 2Q 2002 10Q shows 8 772ERs in operation, 5 on order, 20 on option and 17 rolling options. 21 764ERs in the fleet (one was stored) 24 options and 6 rolling options.

http://getfilings.com/o0000950144-02-008448.html
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ehaase
Posts: 132
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:10 pm

Delta currently has 13 359's. I wonder how long things will remain bad enough before Delta needs to start receiving additional 359's.
Last edited by ehaase on Sun May 17, 2020 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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