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TonyClifton
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:11 pm

United1 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
United1 wrote:

They were basically the MD-11 replacement but IIRC there were some issues with the pilots agreeing on a rate to fly the things so initial deliveries were delayed. DL never really had a chance to build up a 777 fleet pre 9/11 and then bankruptcy.

If you take a look at DLs network back then the only route they really needed the 777 range/capacity on was ATL-NRT. Everything else could be served by 763/764 and L10 aircraft.

How many 777s were on order pre 9/11? I recall there were maybe two dozen 767-400 options that fell by the wayside afterwards. Would have looked a different operation.


DLs 2Q 2002 10Q shows 8 772ERs in operation, 5 on order, 20 on option and 17 rolling options. 21 764ERs in the fleet (one was stored) 24 options and 6 rolling options.

http://getfilings.com/o0000950144-02-008448.html

Thanks! What a change 9/11 and BK gave way to. Forgot how few MD-90s there were until their renaissance last decade!
 
eamondzhang
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun May 17, 2020 11:56 pm

ehaase wrote:
Delta currently has 13 359's. I wonder how long things will remain bad enough before Delta needs to start receiving additional 359's.

Some of the 777's routes are also on TATL or shorter TPAC which can be replaced by A330 if needed.

Michael
 
Dalmd88
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 12:14 am

KFTG wrote:
When I used to work for Delta, at the time they were shipping the Trent engines to AA to get refurbished. Surely this factored into the decision too, i.e. not in Delta's interest at all to provide revenue to a direct competitor.

AMR closed the Alliance Rolls shop years ago. Delta bought a bunch of the tooling from that shop for virtually nothing. I heard we were the only bidder for most of it. It was bought with the idea that IF the 800 work ever came in house we would have tooling. Some of the tooling is common to the Trent 1000 and XWB and is use in the current Trent shop in ATL. Most of it is not, so it's in a offsite warehouse.

I don't know who was doing the 777 work recently, It was never brought in house.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 12:53 am

ehaase wrote:
Delta currently has 13 359's. I wonder how long things will remain bad enough before Delta needs to start receiving additional 359's.

Airbus will force deliveries before DL needs more widebodies. The relationship will get... complicated.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 2:36 am

mcdu wrote:
Not sure I can understand why you think an airline doing anything they can during a crisis to generate any revenue is odd. There is a lack of belly freight space with all of the cancellations that have taken place. As result all of the airlines are vying for any cargo contracts they can get to help pay the bills. There is nothing ODD about DL flying a cargo flight FRA ORD at this time.





pwm2txlhopper wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

ORD and FRA are two of the largest cargo hubs in the world.

Yes, I know that.

If it was UA or AA metal, I wouldn’t even bat an eye. DL metal, especially 777LR, just kind of unexpected on ORD-FRA.


I just said it was odd to note DL 777LR on ORD-FRA. As you don't see that everyday. I didn't know the reason for the flight and that's why I posted the question. Because it was an odd movement. And further asked if it was COVOID related cargo when somebody said it was a cargo flight.

Guess it doesn't really matter if you understand.
 
777Mech
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 2:37 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
When I used to work for Delta, at the time they were shipping the Trent engines to AA to get refurbished. Surely this factored into the decision too, i.e. not in Delta's interest at all to provide revenue to a direct competitor.

AMR closed the Alliance Rolls shop years ago. Delta bought a bunch of the tooling from that shop for virtually nothing. I heard we were the only bidder for most of it. It was bought with the idea that IF the 800 work ever came in house we would have tooling. Some of the tooling is common to the Trent 1000 and XWB and is use in the current Trent shop in ATL. Most of it is not, so it's in a offsite warehouse.

I don't know who was doing the 777 work recently, It was never brought in house.


MTU was doing the work on the Rolls.
 
KFTG
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 2:38 am

Guess I'm out of the loop! I left in '14.
 
catiii
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 3:21 am

scbriml wrote:
catiii wrote:
So yeah, keep telling yourself it wasn’t a cost issue, and that an airplane that is the most widely ordered wide body in the world’s history with over 1600 airplanes delivered is a very specialized, niche airframe for one of the world’s biggest global airlines.


I'm not sure why you're being so defensive about this. The relatively small number of 777s makes it a niche airplane in DL's fleet. As such, it has no economy of scale which makes it relatively expensive.


In the circumstances, it's a smart move for DL to drop the 777 when they have the perfect, more efficient replacement already in the fleet and arriving in larger numbers.


I'm not being defensive, just pointing out the fallacy of saying it wasn't a cost issue when everything out of DL leadership says otherwise.
 
n7371f
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 4:38 am

8 763 considered active enter the week.

N649DL wrote:
DL717 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Actually I think the 319 and *most* of the 320 are safe for the most part. They are all refurbished nose-to-tail and are a good size to re-introduce the traveling public, when ready. Note that before COVID a lot of the LAX routes were upgraded to these types from E170s like LAX-AUS and LAX-DEN, for example.


Not sure I agree. 30% of the 319s are parked and all 320s are parked.


Well, if we want to go by parked planes, there are only 7 active 767s in the fleet right now according to planespotters.net.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 7:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
ehaase wrote:
Delta currently has 13 359's. I wonder how long things will remain bad enough before Delta needs to start receiving additional 359's.

Airbus will force deliveries before DL needs more widebodies. The relationship will get... complicated.


I'm surprised this thread took 450+ messages to get to what seemed obvious: Delta is going to take a lot of A350 deliveries in 2020 and 2021, both its own orders and the LATAM orders, that it has no way of deferring short of Chapter 11 (a pyrrhic victory since a deferral at this late stage would probably take down Airbus with it). They'd rather not have the cash burn this year, but there's no way around it. Given that, there's no better place to put those new A350s, than the 777 routes, including ATL-JNB-ATL and LAX-SYD-LAX. Expansion is suicide, and upgauging won't be in the cards for years. Therefore, exeunt the 777s, chased by a bear market.

If the concern really is for cargo uplift on JNB-ATL, which is a reasonable concern given high cargo yields, soft passenger demand, and the collapse of SAA, Delta does have another option that it didn't have last year: LATAM. If DL can reflow the difference in its cargo capacity from the 77L to the 359, on a routing JNB-GRU-[ATL, MIA, MCO, JFK, BOS], that can at least mitigate the gap in the bottom line.
 
US319
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 7:23 am

lightsaber wrote:
ehaase wrote:
Delta currently has 13 359's. I wonder how long things will remain bad enough before Delta needs to start receiving additional 359's.

Airbus will force deliveries before DL needs more widebodies. The relationship will get... complicated.

Lightsaber


ALL relationships will get complicated not just the ones of Airbus... #justsaying
 
ewt340
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 10:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
ehaase wrote:
Delta currently has 13 359's. I wonder how long things will remain bad enough before Delta needs to start receiving additional 359's.

Airbus will force deliveries before DL needs more widebodies. The relationship will get... complicated.

Lightsaber


What's the chance that would actually happen?

Airbus would just agreed to defers the order rather than losing their most powerful costumer.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 2:11 pm

Airlines, Airbus, supply chain, airports, ground service (and all the various competition) are also enmeshed in complex chains of interdependence. Somehow they all need to survive, and they all are facing mortal threats. A lot of the bargaining and renegotiation are about mutual survival. Adam Smith, himself, explained that bargaining is persuading the other side that your offer is in their best interest.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 5:51 pm

ewt340 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
ehaase wrote:
Delta currently has 13 359's. I wonder how long things will remain bad enough before Delta needs to start receiving additional 359's.

Airbus will force deliveries before DL needs more widebodies. The relationship will get... complicated.

Lightsaber


What's the chance that would actually happen?

Airbus would just agreed to defers the order rather than losing their most powerful costumer.


Who's going to pay the bills for engines and components, as well as the cost of production if the plane is sitting unsold clogging up the flightline. Financing a half year's production will suck the last of cash out of the OEM. Losing the company or enforcing the contract, that is the question.
 
United1
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 6:10 pm

I wouldn't get worked up over DL (or any other airline) taking delivery of new aircraft. Financing new aircraft hasn't been a problem so far for any of the US3. I'm sure DL will simply line up financing (if they haven't already) which would make the initial capital outlay for DL negligible.
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marcogr12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 6:37 pm

How come DL never went for the more capable and fuel-efficient 777-300ER for its long-haul missions, like so many airlines around the world did? They already had the know-how and crew from its 772ERs
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
GSP psgr
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 6:49 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
How come DL never went for the more capable and fuel-efficient 777-300ER for its long-haul missions, like so many airlines around the world did? They already had the know-how and crew from its 772ERs


Delta's route structure doesn't lend itself to a lot of routes that need 400+ pax planes, and for the few that do, AF, KL, and KE can cover them with A380s and 77Ws.
 
strfyr51
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 6:51 pm

acavpics wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
acavpics wrote:
is it possible for them to "grab" the seats and other detachable cabin features from these 777's. I'm asking this because the 777s were recently refurbished in all classes. Could they shift all these seats from the 777s into the future A350's? If so, it would save them a decent amount of $$.

At least, economy class has the same 9-abreast configuration on their A350s.

How would they market them with no seats? If they're leased? they couldn't even return them. That's just money delta is going to have tp EAT!


Market what? The 777's that they just retired?

I was asking if DL could take the seats out of these 777's (before they are scrapped) and putting them in some of the to-be-delivered A350's. DL wouldn't have to buy brand new seats for these A350's, meaning that they could save some money.

I don't see them marketing the -200ER's for sure. Those are approaching 20 y/o and I doubt that anyone would want to buy them. However, the ER's still have the new seats, which means that the airline could take the seats from those 8 772's and put them in 8 A350's.

well ? Exactly HOW would you know the airplanes are going to be scrapped? if you look at the airplanes in the bone yards in Southern California? You will find the seats and interiors installed in them as that's part of the Boneyard's profit center. they don't do this for free. Many times? they remove and re-market materials like the cabins, Lavs and Galley equipment as it is many times still useable. Unless Delta HAS the previous interior? 90% chance they'll send the interior with the airframe.
 
strfyr51
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 6:59 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
How come DL never went for the more capable and fuel-efficient 777-300ER for its long-haul missions, like so many airlines around the world did? They already had th011 know-how and crew from its 772ERs

every airline charts it's path. Delta has never bet they ever willen one to "fall in Line" they bought the Convair 880 and 990 while their peers bought the 707 and DC8. They bought the L1011 and Rolls Royce engines. rather than GE or Pratt. Delta has never just followed suit and I would doubt they ever will.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 7:08 pm

Fuling wrote:
Super sad to see the 777 leave. Hope (but not holding my breath) the -200LR's find a new home.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Range isn't the Problem, the A350 can do everything an 77E can do with ease. The 77L .... not out of JNB and not with cargo on top of passengers. Aside of doing it with a lot less fuel, even an A351 would probably fall short on that one route.

Best regards
Thomas


Thanks for the insight. The A350 should have no problem on Australia routes or ATL to Asia then?


With ease. (range wise)


Someone like Omni Air International may pick up the LR's.
 
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Revelation
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon May 18, 2020 7:43 pm

On a similar note, SQ has said its last three 77Es that are parked are not coming back:

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/cor ... 11.article says:

The carrier’s last three 777-200ERs bear the registrations 9V-SVB (MSN 28525), 9V-SVC (MSN 28526), and 9V-SVE (MSN 30870). Cirium fleets data shows that all three of the Rolls-Royce Trent 800 powered jets were delivered in 2001.

The 777-200ER was formerly the workhorse of the SIA fleet. The airline received its first four examples in 1997, and operated a peak of 46 777-200ERs from 2004-2009.
...
Cirium fleets data shows that SIA’s remaining 777 fleet comprises 27 777-300ERs and five 777-300s. The carrier has orders for 20 777-9s.

772/E/L seems to be a big loser in this COVID-19 era.
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Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 6:43 pm

A350 XWB was basically Airbus's way to label the current plane a "do over" from the original disaster design. Although many don't even say XWB, they just know the A350 as-is.

The first deliveries had the lower MTOW, not sure why they didn't start out with the higher one like they did with A330ceo 242T orders. But costs, and probably because the 77L was on-property. The world is different now, and the A350 was designated as the Delta flagship as soon as it was delivered from Toulouse.

Probably the idea of using the first A350s for ULH expansion and using 77Ls on routes that needed it including ATL-PVG, JFK-BOM, even ATL-DXB in the day all normally used the 77L
 
AZORMP
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 7:25 pm

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
pwm2txlhopper wrote:

All cargo, no passengers? COVOID related cargo? DL on ORD-FRA is kind of odd. Especially with the 777LR. I figured it might be cargo or military movement. Still was odd to see pop up on flghtaware.


ORD and FRA are two of the largest cargo hubs in the world.

Yes, I know that.

If it was UA or AA metal, I wouldn’t even bat an eye. DL metal, especially 777LR, just kind of unexpected on ORD-FRA.


DL is shuffling cargo ICN-DTW on the 350 too. Gotta make money where you can.
 
CALMSP
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 7:38 pm

questions wrote:
There are a lot of comments re the 77L and cargo.

What kind of cargo was DL hauling ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD?

What kind of shipments and shippers does DL (and any commercial airline for that matter) target?

Why would a shipper go to DL vs air freight company?

Although the A350 may be capable for DL’s needs, would any kind of cargo previously shipped on the 77L not be able to be shipped on the A350?


this is all based on the freight forwarders, who are the middle man between the airline and ultimate shipper.
 
jholio
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 8:03 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
How come DL never went for the more capable and fuel-efficient 777-300ER for its long-haul missions, like so many airlines around the world did? They already had the know-how and crew from its 772ERs


Delta's route structure doesn't lend itself to a lot of routes that need 400+ pax planes, and for the few that do, AF, KL, and KE can cover them with A380s and 77Ws.


The 77W is a 304 passenger plane for AA and a 350 passenger plane for UA, so I don't think that is the issue. I think it's more to do with timing, route structure, and preexisting fleet that they didn't order the 77W. The 330/767 combo covered their European and APAC from Seattle ops. When they were in the market for new long haulers, they made the decision that the 330neo/350 combo would suit them better. AA and United with their enormous preexisting 777 fleets and 787 orders came to a different conclusion and added some later build 77W.
 
KEITHDMELLO
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 8:51 pm

DELTA had just recently invested $100 million on its interiors.
I'm sure this was a tough decision for them to make.
They were one of the manufacturers to help design the aircraft.

I found a video on youtube explaining more.

https://youtu.be/_WchE1JCJdw
 
jayunited
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 8:59 pm

jholio wrote:
Delta's route structure doesn't lend itself to a lot of routes that need 400+ pax planes, and for the few that do, AF, KL, and KE can cover them with A380s and 77Ws.


The 77W is a 304 passenger plane for AA and a 350 passenger plane for UA, so I don't think that is the issue. I think it's more to do with timing, route structure, and preexisting fleet that they didn't order the 77W. The 330/767 combo covered their European and APAC from Seattle ops. When they were in the market for new long haulers, they made the decision that the 330neo/350 combo would suit them better. AA and United with their enormous preexisting 777 fleets and 787 orders came to a different conclusion and added some later build 77W.[/quote]

DL's A359s seat 306 passengers which isn't to shabby, but I wonder will Delta take the 6 A35Js their inherited from LATAM in addition to the 4 A359s or will they exchange the A35Js for 6 A359s.

If Delta does take the 6 A35J frames they could easily match if not exceed UA's 350 seat 77Ws in terms of seating capacity.
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 9:05 pm

jayunited wrote:
jholio wrote:
Delta's route structure doesn't lend itself to a lot of routes that need 400+ pax planes, and for the few that do, AF, KL, and KE can cover them with A380s and 77Ws.


The 77W is a 304 passenger plane for AA and a 350 passenger plane for UA, so I don't think that is the issue. I think it's more to do with timing, route structure, and preexisting fleet that they didn't order the 77W. The 330/767 combo covered their European and APAC from Seattle ops. When they were in the market for new long haulers, they made the decision that the 330neo/350 combo would suit them better. AA and United with their enormous preexisting 777 fleets and 787 orders came to a different conclusion and added some later build 77W.


DL's A359s seat 306 passengers which isn't to shabby, but I wonder will Delta take the 6 A35Js their inherited from LATAM in addition to the 4 A359s or will they exchange the A35Js for 6 A359s.

If Delta does take the 6 A35J frames they could easily match if not exceed UA's 350 seat 77Ws in terms of seating capacity.[/quote]

TL;DR I think DL has adjusted the order to A359s.

IIRC the Airbus 2020 orders/cancellations suggests that the LATAM aircraft were cancelled in favor of 10x A359s. No airline/entity identities. I suspect DL "ordered" them through some variation of Airbus Capital as a lease, minimizing capital outlay because this just happened.
 
ehaase
Posts: 130
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue May 19, 2020 10:36 pm

jholio wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
AA and United with their enormous preexisting 777 fleets and 787 orders came to a different conclusion and added some later build 77W.


Delta could have ordered 7 later build 77L to replace the final 7 747-400's,just as AA and UA ordered later build 77W's, but it obviously went with the 359/339 combination. I think I remember reading here years ago that Delta anticipated opening up many more new China routes when it initially ordered the 359's also.
 
winginit
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 7:34 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
We also know that DL explicitly stated that enhancements will be made in order to allow JNB and SYD to operate as required.


Show us where in that memo it means JNB-ATL. It looks like you're missing the context of the memo and debate about it.


First, show me where I said "JNB-ATL". I didn't. Regardless, second, reading the memo in context (posted above) highly suggests JNB-ATL: "With the retirement of the 777, we have made the decision to open two new bases in ATL and LAX. Enhancements to the 350 now allow it to operate key long-haul markets (SYD and JNB) at a lower operating cost than the 777."


I am told today that during an internal employee townhall Ed said that when JNB comes back on the 359 it will be to/from ATL and will be included in a CPT rotation as a result of the 77L retirement and lack of high and hot legs on the 359:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

No timeline given as to when service would actually restart.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 7:37 pm

winginit wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

Show us where in that memo it means JNB-ATL. It looks like you're missing the context of the memo and debate about it.


First, show me where I said "JNB-ATL". I didn't. Regardless, second, reading the memo in context (posted above) highly suggests JNB-ATL: "With the retirement of the 777, we have made the decision to open two new bases in ATL and LAX. Enhancements to the 350 now allow it to operate key long-haul markets (SYD and JNB) at a lower operating cost than the 777."


I am told today that during an internal employee townhall Ed said that when JNB comes back on the 359 it will be to/from ATL and will be included in a CPT rotation as a result of the 77L retirement and lack of high and hot legs on the 359:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

No timeline given as to when service would actually restart.

It seems as though it would be Q1 2021 then if the A359 was mentioned.
 
catiii
Posts: 3522
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 7:38 pm

winginit wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

Show us where in that memo it means JNB-ATL. It looks like you're missing the context of the memo and debate about it.


First, show me where I said "JNB-ATL". I didn't. Regardless, second, reading the memo in context (posted above) highly suggests JNB-ATL: "With the retirement of the 777, we have made the decision to open two new bases in ATL and LAX. Enhancements to the 350 now allow it to operate key long-haul markets (SYD and JNB) at a lower operating cost than the 777."


I am told today that during an internal employee townhall Ed said that when JNB comes back on the 359 it will be to/from ATL and will be included in a CPT rotation as a result of the 77L retirement and lack of high and hot legs on the 359:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

No timeline given as to when service would actually restart.


ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL? Or ATL-JNB-CPT-JNB-ATL?
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1258
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 7:46 pm

catiii wrote:
winginit wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

First, show me where I said "JNB-ATL". I didn't. Regardless, second, reading the memo in context (posted above) highly suggests JNB-ATL: "With the retirement of the 777, we have made the decision to open two new bases in ATL and LAX. Enhancements to the 350 now allow it to operate key long-haul markets (SYD and JNB) at a lower operating cost than the 777."


I am told today that during an internal employee townhall Ed said that when JNB comes back on the 359 it will be to/from ATL and will be included in a CPT rotation as a result of the 77L retirement and lack of high and hot legs on the 359:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

No timeline given as to when service would actually restart.


ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL? Or ATL-JNB-CPT-JNB-ATL?


Why would it go back to JNB if the altitude and density altitude are performance limiting on the 350? The route proposed makes sense, ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL. Not to mention I’m guessing Delta can’t fly passengers between JNB and CPT, so that wouldn’t make sense financially either.
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
Ishrion
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 8:17 pm

 
TropicalSky
Posts: 472
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 8:29 pm

Well glad to read their intentions to continue with the launch of JFK-BOM
 
DCA350
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 9:37 pm

A Cape Town stop is smart imo.. American carriers do not like circular routes, but if executed right they can work. The A350 will be able to leave out full, and based on the early returns from United there is a market for CPT to the US.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7794
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 9:51 pm

DCA350 wrote:
A Cape Town stop is smart imo.. American carriers do not like circular routes, but if executed right they can work. The A350 will be able to leave out full, and based on the early returns from United there is a market for CPT to the US.


I wish them luck. For some fraction of (not ATL-originating but Delta-committed) U.S. travelers xxx-CDG/AMS-CPT is going to be faster, and save them a segment.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3281
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 10:04 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
winginit wrote:
I am told today that during an internal employee townhall Ed said that when JNB comes back on the 359 it will be to/from ATL and will be included in a CPT rotation as a result of the 77L retirement and lack of high and hot legs on the 359:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

No timeline given as to when service would actually restart.

It seems as though it would be Q1 2021 then if the A359 was mentioned.


Are you basing that on higher-MTOW 359 delivery schedules, or something else?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 709
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 10:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
A Cape Town stop is smart imo.. American carriers do not like circular routes, but if executed right they can work. The A350 will be able to leave out full, and based on the early returns from United there is a market for CPT to the US.


I wish them luck. For some fraction of (not ATL-originating but Delta-committed) U.S. travelers xxx-CDG/AMS-CPT is going to be faster, and save them a segment.


Delta's probably okay with that; I think the CPT stop is entirely about being able to haul as much cargo as possible and less about leisure oriented pax to CPT.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 10:07 pm

FSDan wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
winginit wrote:
I am told today that during an internal employee townhall Ed said that when JNB comes back on the 359 it will be to/from ATL and will be included in a CPT rotation as a result of the 77L retirement and lack of high and hot legs on the 359:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

No timeline given as to when service would actually restart.

It seems as though it would be Q1 2021 then if the A359 was mentioned.


Are you basing that on higher-MTOW 359 delivery schedules, or something else?

Just the fact that the 777's will be gone by the end of 2020. So it would make sense to put the A359 on the route as soon as the 777 is gone. That being said I think they will most likely run the 777 until the end of the year on the route *IF it returns this year.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3281
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 10:12 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
It seems as though it would be Q1 2021 then if the A359 was mentioned.


Are you basing that on higher-MTOW 359 delivery schedules, or something else?

Just the fact that the 777's will be gone by the end of 2020. So it would make sense to put the A359 on the route as soon as the 777 is gone. That being said I think they will most likely run the 777 until the end of the year on the route *IF it returns this year.


Well, right now I believe DL has at most 2 of the high-MTOW A359s that could serve these routes (and a Glen Hauenstein quote from the TPG article makes it sound like all 13 of their current 359s are the low-MTOW version, although I'm not sure which is accurate). So DL won't be able to restart all these routes at the same time. I'd guess ATL-PVG might be gone longer term since there are plenty of other ways to get to PVG in DL's network. A return to South Africa, India, or Australia will depend on when those governments relax restrictions, among other things.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 336
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 10:24 pm

FSDan wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
FSDan wrote:

Are you basing that on higher-MTOW 359 delivery schedules, or something else?

Just the fact that the 777's will be gone by the end of 2020. So it would make sense to put the A359 on the route as soon as the 777 is gone. That being said I think they will most likely run the 777 until the end of the year on the route *IF it returns this year.


Well, right now I believe DL has at most 2 of the high-MTOW A359s that could serve these routes (and a Glen Hauenstein quote from the TPG article makes it sound like all 13 of their current 359s are the low-MTOW version, although I'm not sure which is accurate). So DL won't be able to restart all these routes at the same time. I'd guess ATL-PVG might be gone longer term since there are plenty of other ways to get to PVG in DL's network. A return to South Africa, India, or Australia will depend on when those governments relax restrictions, among other things.

I think only the first few are below 275t. I think what he meant was the next batch is being delivered at 280t. And I think you are right, we have 2 or 3 280t versions already. Im not totally sure.
 
moyangmm
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 10:57 pm

Delta lists A350-900's range as 7275 mi (6321 nmi)

https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a350

We also know they have 275t MTOW variant currently. It doesn't seem to be able to cover these flights previously served by 77L:

Atlanta – Johannesburg: 8,439 miles
Atlanta – Shanghai: 7,659 miles
Los Angeles – Sydney: 7,488 miles
New York JFK – Mumbai: 7,799 miles

It's also interesting that DL's figure departs so much from Airbus', 6321 nmi vs 8100 nmi.

Meanwhile, the 77L's range is 9890 mi (8594 nmi)
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/777-200lr

And 77E is 8542 mi (7422 nmi)
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/777-200er
 
United857
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:37 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 11:02 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Just the fact that the 777's will be gone by the end of 2020. So it would make sense to put the A359 on the route as soon as the 777 is gone. That being said I think they will most likely run the 777 until the end of the year on the route *IF it returns this year.


Well, right now I believe DL has at most 2 of the high-MTOW A359s that could serve these routes (and a Glen Hauenstein quote from the TPG article makes it sound like all 13 of their current 359s are the low-MTOW version, although I'm not sure which is accurate). So DL won't be able to restart all these routes at the same time. I'd guess ATL-PVG might be gone longer term since there are plenty of other ways to get to PVG in DL's network. A return to South Africa, India, or Australia will depend on when those governments relax restrictions, among other things.

I think only the first few are below 275t. I think what he meant was the next batch is being delivered at 280t. And I think you are right, we have 2 or 3 280t versions already. Im not totally sure.

Only the frames with the updated wing twist, which also means the taller winglets (N512DN/N513DZ), are capable of 280t. The rest are pre wing-twist frames that max out at 275t.
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AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
Antoli0794
Posts: 49
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 11:26 pm

ehaase wrote:
jholio wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:


Delta could have ordered 7 later build 77L to replace the final 7 747-400's,just as AA and UA ordered later build 77W's, but it obviously went with the 359/339 combination. I think I remember reading here years ago that Delta anticipated opening up many more new China routes when it initially ordered the 359's also.



Probably why Delta wants to fly MSP-PVG with the A350
 
jayunited
Posts: 2777
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 11:31 pm

DCA350 wrote:
A Cape Town stop is smart imo.. American carriers do not like circular routes, but if executed right they can work. The A350 will be able to leave out full, and based on the early returns from United there is a market for CPT to the US.



The idea of stopping in Cape Town is a smart one if the economics work. While it is true DL would be able to take a full load of passengers, their bags and cargo out of JNB the problem I see is crew rest and layovers. I'm not sure how Delta's contract with their pilots reads but if this were for example UA flying ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL, UA would pilots and FA's would enter crew rest at JNB which is to be expected however depending on the ground service time at CPT you would need to swap crews again at CPT do to the stage length of a CPT-ATL nonstop flight.

CPT-ATL is around 7,000 nautical miles that equates to more than a 15 hour 30 minute flight. The ground service time at CPT would be critical in this scenario especially as it pertains to DL's pilots. DL's FA's may not have much of an option and to save money DL could force the FA's to fly JNB-CPT-ATL. I would think a ground service time longer than an hour would put the flight in jeopardy of either having to make another tech stop at SJU for crew rest or out right cancel in CPT if the pilots run out of time.
 
catiii
Posts: 3522
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 11:32 pm

cbphoto wrote:
catiii wrote:
winginit wrote:

I am told today that during an internal employee townhall Ed said that when JNB comes back on the 359 it will be to/from ATL and will be included in a CPT rotation as a result of the 77L retirement and lack of high and hot legs on the 359:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

No timeline given as to when service would actually restart.


ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL? Or ATL-JNB-CPT-JNB-ATL?


Why would it go back to JNB if the altitude and density altitude are performance limiting on the 350? The route proposed makes sense, ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL. Not to mention I’m guessing Delta can’t fly passengers between JNB and CPT, so that wouldn’t make sense financially either.


Crew considerations. Single layover city as I assume the JNB-CPT crew will fly one leg and then layover in CPT. This way they fly the CPT-JNB-CPT turn with the same JNB layover, then take the n/s to ATL the next day.

Not dissimilar to the old UA IAD-DXB-KWI-DXB-IAD.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10523
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed May 20, 2020 11:45 pm

catiii wrote:
cbphoto wrote:
catiii wrote:

ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL? Or ATL-JNB-CPT-JNB-ATL?


Why would it go back to JNB if the altitude and density altitude are performance limiting on the 350? The route proposed makes sense, ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL. Not to mention I’m guessing Delta can’t fly passengers between JNB and CPT, so that wouldn’t make sense financially either.


Crew considerations. Single layover city as I assume the JNB-CPT crew will fly one leg and then layover in CPT. This way they fly the CPT-JNB-CPT turn with the same JNB layover, then take the n/s to ATL the next day.

Not dissimilar to the old UA IAD-DXB-KWI-DXB-IAD.

The entire reason CPT is being added is because the A359 they have/will have doesn’t have sufficient hot and high performance to fly nonstop to ATL from JNB with an acceptable load.


DL still wants to offer ATL-JNB nonstop though as that is where the business traffic is. The leisure traffic to CPT will deal with a stop in JNB on the way to CPT.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1075
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 21, 2020 12:21 am

TropicalSky wrote:
Well glad to read their intentions to continue with the launch of JFK-BOM

While they intend to continue JFK-BOM, DL has not said anything as to when they will restart. Hopefully later this year and not late into 2021.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu May 21, 2020 12:42 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Just the fact that the 777's will be gone by the end of 2020. So it would make sense to put the A359 on the route as soon as the 777 is gone. That being said I think they will most likely run the 777 until the end of the year on the route *IF it returns this year.


Well, right now I believe DL has at most 2 of the high-MTOW A359s that could serve these routes (and a Glen Hauenstein quote from the TPG article makes it sound like all 13 of their current 359s are the low-MTOW version, although I'm not sure which is accurate). So DL won't be able to restart all these routes at the same time. I'd guess ATL-PVG might be gone longer term since there are plenty of other ways to get to PVG in DL's network. A return to South Africa, India, or Australia will depend on when those governments relax restrictions, among other things.

I think only the first few are below 275t. I think what he meant was the next batch is being delivered at 280t. And I think you are right, we have 2 or 3 280t versions already. Im not totally sure.


280T vs 275T doesn’t help JNB-ATL. It’s weight restricted because of altitude density because it hot and high. A higher weight frame with the same wing/engine isn’t going to magically lift more from the same weight restricted airport. It’s wing/engine limited almost always in such cases.

The later frames with the wing twist and winglet change does help, slightly, due to lower burn enroute. And while these could be rated to 280T, it doesn’t hurt them if they’re at 275T for this particular route (JNB-ATL)

Now, the 280T would help with a stop in CPT as they likely could take off at full 280T there. That would leave more payload weight available for cargo if needed.

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