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par13del
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:57 am

So based on the number of A350's that DL has in their fleet, have they already surpassed the 777 fleet, its not as if DL is a large operator of the 777, of course because it is DL, the resale value of the 777 will take a hit.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:35 am

Not as yet...Dal has 18 B777 and just 13 A350's on property currently......#14 is currently on the flightline in France

par13del wrote:
So based on the number of A350's that DL has in their fleet, have they already surpassed the 777 fleet, its not as if DL is a large operator of the 777, of course because it is DL, the resale value of the 777 will take a hit.
 
tullamarine
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:04 am

par13del wrote:
So based on the number of A350's that DL has in their fleet, have they already surpassed the 777 fleet, its not as if DL is a large operator of the 777, of course because it is DL, the resale value of the 777 will take a hit.

The 77E has no real resale value now with most retirees being scrapped. There hasn't ever been a resale for 77L with airlines such as AI and EY both struggling to shift theirs. Realistically, unless the sums add up for a freighter conversion, it is likely these will sit in the desert and eventually be scrapped.
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MrHMSH
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:07 am

alfa164 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Didn't SA's JNB-JFK fly nonstop?


When I flew it (2005?), it was non-stop JFK-JNB, but a stop in Dakar coming back.


I meant for the A359 specifically, it replaced the A346 which had/has different capabilities.
 
gloom
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:32 am

lightsaber wrote:
So what is the engine performance like for the 77W out of DXB on a 114F day compared to the same 77W out of JNB at 77F but at its 5 558ft altitude?


I have no time to do extensive check, so forgive me if you did the check (you probably did).

The problem with JNB is not only high. Everyone is considering it hot, not because of +30C, but because you have to reference to 6000ft ISA atmosphere. So, basically cool 20C is ISA+17.
Agreed it's not a problem for engine (you just loose some percent of thrust lost due to lower airflow at this altitude), but certainly double impact on airframe.

Cheers,
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dairbus
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
For the 777-200LR:
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... 2lr3er.pdf

See slide 44 for altitude of 6,000 ft, the maximum takeoff weight of the 777-200LR is 705,000 lb or so (I'm eyeballing). So there is a reason DL did a morning takeoff as slide 45 shows us a hot day at JNB is way down at 685,000 lb (or so, again, I'm graph reading and there is some error).
If you look at slide 47, the hot day at sea level, at 114F, is about 730,000 lb, at 2000 ft only 685,000 lb, so I had it backward, the JNB takeoff means an allowed takeoff weight about 25,000 lb less than a hot day at Dubai (I find it telling Boeing now just publishes an easy way to interpolate the EK conditions). So a 777-200LR is taking off from JNB heavier in the morning than during EK's hot season.

So the GE-90-110 has enough spare margin to overcome.

It is a valid comparison as both impact takeoff performance.
Note: 766,000 lb MTOW just isn't going to be achieved under these conditions at either airport. .

A reduction of 55,000 lb in MTOW reduces the 777-200LR payload at range a little. Looking at slide 41 and knowing the OEW is about 320,000 lb (give or take) we see a non-fuel takeoff for 8500nm of 395,000 lb or so (again, eyeballing charts) or 75,000 lb of payload. At 105kg/pax (about 69,300lb) plus catering, crew, leaves about 4,000 lb for cargo above full pax on the 777.

Lightsaber



Hi Lightsaber.

I have dispatched the JNB-ATL flight only occasionally but your weight/payload analysis for the 777LR is pretty accurate. A couple things to add.

- The flight arrived mid-morning and departed JNB in the early evening. Due to the elevation, the performance was extremely sensitive to temperature and barometric pressure. Even though it departed after the hottest part of the day, the temperature was always watched very closely. If the evening temps did not fall as forecast you could loose a significant amount of payload margin you were counting on.

- Another complication was the wind. You would have shifting or variable winds in the evening as the sun went down or if there was convective activity in the vicinity, especially in the summertime. A tailwind of only a knot or two would reduce your RATOW by several thousand pounds. Not unique to the 777LR but it had a greater impact since you were almost always planning up to the performance limit. Like many airports, JNB would usually not change runways until the tailwind exceeded 10kts. You could request an opposite direction takeoff from ATC but would most likely take a significant delay waiting for a gap in traffic.

Of course, the sea-level departure on the CPT-ATL leg will reduce if not eliminate most of these concerns but I will be curious to see how the A350 actually does on the route.

That being said, I am saddened by the retirement of the 777 from DL even though it makes sense in the current conditions. They are an extremely capable aircraft and easy to work from a dispatch standpoint. The 777LR in particular is a payload monster. I've always been amazed that the 777LR has a higher MTOW than the original 747-100. :weightlifter:
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enzo011
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:17 am

lightsaber wrote:
Have you looked at aircraft performance with altitude and temperature? Both Boeing and Airbus have extensive outlines:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpor ... nuals.page


For the 777-200LR:
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... 2lr3er.pdf

See slide 44 for altitude of 6,000 ft, the maximum takeoff weight of the 777-200LR is 705,000 lb or so (I'm eyeballing). So there is a reason DL did a morning takeoff as slide 45 shows us a hot day at JNB is way down at 685,000 lb (or so, again, I'm graph reading and there is some error).
If you look at slide 47, the hot day at sea level, at 114F, is about 730,000 lb, at 2000 ft only 685,000 lb, so I had it backward, the JNB takeoff means an allowed takeoff weight about 25,000 lb less than a hot day at Dubai (I find it telling Boeing now just publishes an easy way to interpolate the EK conditions). So a 777-200LR is taking off from JNB heavier in the morning than during EK's hot season.

So the GE-90-110 has enough spare margin to overcome.

It is a valid comparison as both impact takeoff performance.
Note: 766,000 lb MTOW just isn't going to be achieved under these conditions at either airport. .

A reduction of 55,000 lb in MTOW reduces the 777-200LR payload at range a little. Looking at slide 41 and knowing the OEW is about 320,000 lb (give or take) we see a non-fuel takeoff for 8500nm of 395,000 lb or so (again, eyeballing charts) or 75,000 lb of payload. At 105kg/pax (about 69,300lb) plus catering, crew, leaves about 4,000 lb for cargo above full pax on the 777.

Doing the same chart reading for the A359:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... -data.html
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... stics.html
Looking at slide 158, we see at 6,000 ft, the A359 Maximum takeoff weight is 600,000 lb or so.

Slide 155 shows for 617,000 lb takeoff weight max pax could be taken out to 7,800nm. In other words, for JNB-ATL (or JFK), the flight must stop for fuel.

Airbus provides less information to non-paying customers (but far more in a bid, I've been amazed at the spreadsheets generated by airlines where they model every existing route cost and a bunch of future possible routes and buy aircraft on which has the least cost). They even model breaking down fleets (replace with 2 sizes instead of one, or cost of subfleets).

I even looked at the 789. From 6,000 ft, max takeoff of 458,000 lb. Oh... Not a great pick from JNB...

Delta needs an A359 with more thrust at altitude. A lot more thrust. More than any project I'm aware of. Cest la vie. They'll make it work with a refueling stop at lower altitude.

Lightsaber



Thank you for the reply. You seem to indicate that the 77L loses more weight out of JNB due to the altitude than temperature out of DXB, right?

If we compare ISA +59F for the 77W the MTOW, if I eyeball the chart correctly it is able to carry 735 000lbs. If I eyeball ISA but at 6000ft it can take off at around 700 000lbs. So altitude out of JNB has a bigger influence on aircraft performance than temperature out of DXB, or am I reading that incorrectly?
 
KFTG
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:17 am

tullamarine wrote:
There hasn't ever been a resale for 77L with airlines such as AI and EY both struggling to shift theirs.

Not true. EY having the 77L in their fleet was literally a purchase from Air India itself.
 
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PM
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:39 am

par13del wrote:
... its not as if DL is a large operator of the 777, of course ...

Slightly off-topic but I think I'm right that they intended to have many more.

https://www.flightglobal.com/rolls-royc ... 63.article

"Rolls-Royce has beaten GE and Pratt & Whitney in a contest to supply its Trent 800s to power 10 Delta Air Lines' Boeing 777s (with firm options on a further 20 and rolling options on 30 more)." 15th November 1997.

But then Delta got into a dispute with their pilots and only a few planes were delivered. Undelivered orders were subsequently converted to the 777-200LR.

But 60 777s with RR for Delta. What might have been... :frown:
 
HVNandrew
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:40 am

PM wrote:
par13del wrote:
... its not as if DL is a large operator of the 777, of course ...

Slightly off-topic but I think I'm right that they intended to have many more.

https://www.flightglobal.com/rolls-royc ... 63.article

"Rolls-Royce has beaten GE and Pratt & Whitney in a contest to supply its Trent 800s to power 10 Delta Air Lines' Boeing 777s (with firm options on a further 20 and rolling options on 30 more)." 15th November 1997.

But then Delta got into a dispute with their pilots and only a few planes were delivered. Undelivered orders were subsequently converted to the 777-200LR.

But 60 777s with RR for Delta. What might have been... :frown:

That is interesting, though I am not sure what DL would have done with all those 777s had they taken more. For several years in the early 2000s the only route DL flew that truly needed the 777 was ATL-NRT; the other 777s were doing ATL (and potentially even CVG?) to Europe.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:08 am

dairbus wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
For the 777-200LR:
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... 2lr3er.pdf

See slide 44 for altitude of 6,000 ft, the maximum takeoff weight of the 777-200LR is 705,000 lb or so (I'm eyeballing). So there is a reason DL did a morning takeoff as slide 45 shows us a hot day at JNB is way down at 685,000 lb (or so, again, I'm graph reading and there is some error).
If you look at slide 47, the hot day at sea level, at 114F, is about 730,000 lb, at 2000 ft only 685,000 lb, so I had it backward, the JNB takeoff means an allowed takeoff weight about 25,000 lb less than a hot day at Dubai (I find it telling Boeing now just publishes an easy way to interpolate the EK conditions). So a 777-200LR is taking off from JNB heavier in the morning than during EK's hot season.

So the GE-90-110 has enough spare margin to overcome.

It is a valid comparison as both impact takeoff performance.
Note: 766,000 lb MTOW just isn't going to be achieved under these conditions at either airport. .

A reduction of 55,000 lb in MTOW reduces the 777-200LR payload at range a little. Looking at slide 41 and knowing the OEW is about 320,000 lb (give or take) we see a non-fuel takeoff for 8500nm of 395,000 lb or so (again, eyeballing charts) or 75,000 lb of payload. At 105kg/pax (about 69,300lb) plus catering, crew, leaves about 4,000 lb for cargo above full pax on the 777.

Lightsaber



Hi Lightsaber.

I have dispatched the JNB-ATL flight only occasionally but your weight/payload analysis for the 777LR is pretty accurate. A couple things to add.

- The flight arrived mid-morning and departed JNB in the early evening. Due to the elevation, the performance was extremely sensitive to temperature and barometric pressure. Even though it departed after the hottest part of the day, the temperature was always watched very closely. If the evening temps did not fall as forecast you could loose a significant amount of payload margin you were counting on.

- Another complication was the wind. You would have shifting or variable winds in the evening as the sun went down or if there was convective activity in the vicinity, especially in the summertime. A tailwind of only a knot or two would reduce your RATOW by several thousand pounds. Not unique to the 777LR but it had a greater impact since you were almost always planning up to the performance limit. Like many airports, JNB would usually not change runways until the tailwind exceeded 10kts. You could request an opposite direction takeoff from ATC but would most likely take a significant delay waiting for a gap in traffic.

Of course, the sea-level departure on the CPT-ATL leg will reduce if not eliminate most of these concerns but I will be curious to see how the A350 actually does on the route.

That being said, I am saddened by the retirement of the 777 from DL even though it makes sense in the current conditions. They are an extremely capable aircraft and easy to work from a dispatch standpoint. The 777LR in particular is a payload monster. I've always been amazed that the 777LR has a higher MTOW than the original 747-100. :weightlifter:


Thank you for that wonderful information.

Yes, the 77L is certainly a beast and it’s quite evident that DL can’t make it work on the JNB-ATL leg with the A350.

Fantastic airplane, but it just doesn’t quite have the balls to do this route, which is why they are stopping in CPT on the way home.
Whatever
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:14 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
dairbus wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
For the 777-200LR:
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... 2lr3er.pdf

See slide 44 for altitude of 6,000 ft, the maximum takeoff weight of the 777-200LR is 705,000 lb or so (I'm eyeballing). So there is a reason DL did a morning takeoff as slide 45 shows us a hot day at JNB is way down at 685,000 lb (or so, again, I'm graph reading and there is some error).
If you look at slide 47, the hot day at sea level, at 114F, is about 730,000 lb, at 2000 ft only 685,000 lb, so I had it backward, the JNB takeoff means an allowed takeoff weight about 25,000 lb less than a hot day at Dubai (I find it telling Boeing now just publishes an easy way to interpolate the EK conditions). So a 777-200LR is taking off from JNB heavier in the morning than during EK's hot season.

So the GE-90-110 has enough spare margin to overcome.

It is a valid comparison as both impact takeoff performance.
Note: 766,000 lb MTOW just isn't going to be achieved under these conditions at either airport. .

A reduction of 55,000 lb in MTOW reduces the 777-200LR payload at range a little. Looking at slide 41 and knowing the OEW is about 320,000 lb (give or take) we see a non-fuel takeoff for 8500nm of 395,000 lb or so (again, eyeballing charts) or 75,000 lb of payload. At 105kg/pax (about 69,300lb) plus catering, crew, leaves about 4,000 lb for cargo above full pax on the 777.

Lightsaber



Hi Lightsaber.

I have dispatched the JNB-ATL flight only occasionally but your weight/payload analysis for the 777LR is pretty accurate. A couple things to add.

- The flight arrived mid-morning and departed JNB in the early evening. Due to the elevation, the performance was extremely sensitive to temperature and barometric pressure. Even though it departed after the hottest part of the day, the temperature was always watched very closely. If the evening temps did not fall as forecast you could loose a significant amount of payload margin you were counting on.

- Another complication was the wind. You would have shifting or variable winds in the evening as the sun went down or if there was convective activity in the vicinity, especially in the summertime. A tailwind of only a knot or two would reduce your RATOW by several thousand pounds. Not unique to the 777LR but it had a greater impact since you were almost always planning up to the performance limit. Like many airports, JNB would usually not change runways until the tailwind exceeded 10kts. You could request an opposite direction takeoff from ATC but would most likely take a significant delay waiting for a gap in traffic.

Of course, the sea-level departure on the CPT-ATL leg will reduce if not eliminate most of these concerns but I will be curious to see how the A350 actually does on the route.

That being said, I am saddened by the retirement of the 777 from DL even though it makes sense in the current conditions. They are an extremely capable aircraft and easy to work from a dispatch standpoint. The 777LR in particular is a payload monster. I've always been amazed that the 777LR has a higher MTOW than the original 747-100. :weightlifter:


Thank you for that wonderful information.

Yes, the 77L is certainly a beast and it’s quite evident that DL can’t make it work on the JNB-ATL leg with the A350.

Fantastic airplane, but it just doesn’t quite have the balls to do this route, which is why they are stopping in CPT on the way home.

It just can’t do it with the payload DL wanted. As a matter of fact, the 77L might be the only aircraft in the world that can do this route with a heavy-ish payload. An A35K with a thrust bump is interesting though.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:37 am

SA has flown the A359 JNB-JFK but the route is 409 nm shorter than JNB-ATL which is about an hour less flight time. The A359 is very good but JNB-JFK is one of the most challenging in the world. It is no disgrace it has to do a stop at CPT.
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DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:42 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
SA has flown the A359 JNB-JFK but the route is 409 nm shorter than JNB-ATL which is about an hour less flight time. The A359 is very good but JNB-JFK is one of the most challenging in the world. It is no disgrace it has to do a stop at CPT.

DL have slightly higher fuel reserve requirements as well IIRC. So when a flight is already at the performance edge, ~15-17hrs at 5500ft, any extra payload or weight thats necessary is not gonna help much.
 
DCA350
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:30 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
dairbus wrote:


Hi Lightsaber.

I have dispatched the JNB-ATL flight only occasionally but your weight/payload analysis for the 777LR is pretty accurate. A couple things to add.

- The flight arrived mid-morning and departed JNB in the early evening. Due to the elevation, the performance was extremely sensitive to temperature and barometric pressure. Even though it departed after the hottest part of the day, the temperature was always watched very closely. If the evening temps did not fall as forecast you could loose a significant amount of payload margin you were counting on.

- Another complication was the wind. You would have shifting or variable winds in the evening as the sun went down or if there was convective activity in the vicinity, especially in the summertime. A tailwind of only a knot or two would reduce your RATOW by several thousand pounds. Not unique to the 777LR but it had a greater impact since you were almost always planning up to the performance limit. Like many airports, JNB would usually not change runways until the tailwind exceeded 10kts. You could request an opposite direction takeoff from ATC but would most likely take a significant delay waiting for a gap in traffic.

Of course, the sea-level departure on the CPT-ATL leg will reduce if not eliminate most of these concerns but I will be curious to see how the A350 actually does on the route.

That being said, I am saddened by the retirement of the 777 from DL even though it makes sense in the current conditions. They are an extremely capable aircraft and easy to work from a dispatch standpoint. The 777LR in particular is a payload monster. I've always been amazed that the 777LR has a higher MTOW than the original 747-100. :weightlifter:


Thank you for that wonderful information.

Yes, the 77L is certainly a beast and it’s quite evident that DL can’t make it work on the JNB-ATL leg with the A350.

Fantastic airplane, but it just doesn’t quite have the balls to do this route, which is why they are stopping in CPT on the way home.

It just can’t do it with the payload DL wanted. As a matter of fact, the 77L might be the only aircraft in the world that can do this route with a heavy-ish payload. An A35K with a thrust bump is interesting though.


And the A346. The A35K at 319t probably could do it but in Deltas configuration it would be close to 50 more seats than the 777L. Doubt Delta wants that big of an increase.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:04 pm

DCA350 wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:

Thank you for that wonderful information.

Yes, the 77L is certainly a beast and it’s quite evident that DL can’t make it work on the JNB-ATL leg with the A350.

Fantastic airplane, but it just doesn’t quite have the balls to do this route, which is why they are stopping in CPT on the way home.

It just can’t do it with the payload DL wanted. As a matter of fact, the 77L might be the only aircraft in the world that can do this route with a heavy-ish payload. An A35K with a thrust bump is interesting though.


And the A346. The A35K at 319t probably could do it but in Deltas configuration it would be close to 50 more seats than the 777L. Doubt Delta wants that big of an increase.

Yeah, kinda forgot about the 346 momentarily, she gets MTOW from Jo’Burg more often than not. I wish I got to fly on one :( we would probably see them have a similar configuration to Cathay. Maybe 340 ish
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:37 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
dairbus wrote:


Hi Lightsaber.

I have dispatched the JNB-ATL flight only occasionally but your weight/payload analysis for the 777LR is pretty accurate. A couple things to add.

- The flight arrived mid-morning and departed JNB in the early evening. Due to the elevation, the performance was extremely sensitive to temperature and barometric pressure. Even though it departed after the hottest part of the day, the temperature was always watched very closely. If the evening temps did not fall as forecast you could loose a significant amount of payload margin you were counting on.

- Another complication was the wind. You would have shifting or variable winds in the evening as the sun went down or if there was convective activity in the vicinity, especially in the summertime. A tailwind of only a knot or two would reduce your RATOW by several thousand pounds. Not unique to the 777LR but it had a greater impact since you were almost always planning up to the performance limit. Like many airports, JNB would usually not change runways until the tailwind exceeded 10kts. You could request an opposite direction takeoff from ATC but would most likely take a significant delay waiting for a gap in traffic.

Of course, the sea-level departure on the CPT-ATL leg will reduce if not eliminate most of these concerns but I will be curious to see how the A350 actually does on the route.

That being said, I am saddened by the retirement of the 777 from DL even though it makes sense in the current conditions. They are an extremely capable aircraft and easy to work from a dispatch standpoint. The 777LR in particular is a payload monster. I've always been amazed that the 777LR has a higher MTOW than the original 747-100. :weightlifter:


Thank you for that wonderful information.

Yes, the 77L is certainly a beast and it’s quite evident that DL can’t make it work on the JNB-ATL leg with the A350.

Fantastic airplane, but it just doesn’t quite have the balls to do this route, which is why they are stopping in CPT on the way home.

It just can’t do it with the payload DL wanted. As a matter of fact, the 77L might be the only aircraft in the world that can do this route with a heavy-ish payload. An A35K with a thrust bump is interesting though.


I thank those who put forth the effort on range/payload calcs.

'It can fly it but without the payload' means it doesn't represent the same revenue opportunity. There's some value in being able to carry intercontinental freight, right?

DL has had enough A350s for a while now (and had deferred some even before COVID-19 or the LATAM A350 commitments), and still chose to use 77Ls on the route. That suggests they value payload capability more than the A350's fuel savings. (It might also suggest that DL simply had no better route for the 77Ls that were in the fleet...) It's hard to argue the costs of a pilot-specific subfleet (whether that's DL 777/77L or just the ten 77Ls) where the capability is needed on just one or two routes.

DL looks like it's finally getting serious about fleet simplification. As it shrinks that becomes even more of a priority. That's a long and expensive path unless you're just pulling out capacity and/or terminating outlier routes (distance, noise requirements, runway limitations, hot/high).
 
Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:30 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
SA has flown the A359 JNB-JFK but the route is 409 nm shorter than JNB-ATL which is about an hour less flight time. The A359 is very good but JNB-JFK is one of the most challenging in the world. It is no disgrace it has to do a stop at CPT.


Considering Delta ran ATL-DKR-JNB and ATL-DKR-CPT for awhile on the 764/763, definitely no disgrace. They'll also be happy to get the higher A350 tonne variants off the line in Toulouse for it.
 
na
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Are some of the DL 777s now parked already been retired permanently or is it planned to return all to service for a short time?
 
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scbriml
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
'It can fly it but without the payload' means it doesn't represent the same revenue opportunity. There's some value in being able to carry intercontinental freight, right?


Potential revenue is just that, potential.

While the A359 might not not be able to lift as much or carry it as far as a 77L, what it does is fly the route at significantly lower cost. It's a complex equation, simply saying the 77L might be able to generate more revenue isn't the full picture. DL appears to have decided that the difference isn't sufficient to warrant keeping the 77L fleet.

MIflyer12 wrote:
DL has had enough A350s for a while now (and had deferred some even before COVID-19 or the LATAM A350 commitments), and still chose to use 77Ls on the route. That suggests they value payload capability more than the A350's fuel savings.


Or it's simply being pre-Covid realistic - we have 77Ls in the fleets as well as A359s, so let's use the plane that's more expensive to operate on the routes where we get the most benefit (i.e. the longest, most challenging routes). However, when faced with a significant crunch, DL didn't value the 77L's payload capability enough to keep them.

Nobody's denying the 77L is a beast, but DL decided they couldn't justify continuing to operate it, preferring the lower operating costs of the A359 and simplifying the fleet.
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jagraham
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:29 pm

scbriml wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
'It can fly it but without the payload' means it doesn't represent the same revenue opportunity. There's some value in being able to carry intercontinental freight, right?


Potential revenue is just that, potential.

While the A359 might not not be able to lift as much or carry it as far as a 77L, what it does is fly the route at significantly lower cost. It's a complex equation, simply saying the 77L might be able to generate more revenue isn't the full picture. DL appears to have decided that the difference isn't sufficient to warrant keeping the 77L fleet.

MIflyer12 wrote:
DL has had enough A350s for a while now (and had deferred some even before COVID-19 or the LATAM A350 commitments), and still chose to use 77Ls on the route. That suggests they value payload capability more than the A350's fuel savings.


Or it's simply being pre-Covid realistic - we have 77Ls in the fleets as well as A359s, so let's use the plane that's more expensive to operate on the routes where we get the most benefit (i.e. the longest, most challenging routes). However, when faced with a significant crunch, DL didn't value the 77L's payload capability enough to keep them.

Nobody's denying the 77L is a beast, but DL decided they couldn't justify continuing to operate it, preferring the lower operating costs of the A359 and simplifying the fleet.



Many have asserted that the A359 is as beastly as the 77L. The A359 can carry the same max payload as the 77L, but not as far.

Also, when adding payload, the more efficient plane has to give up more range. Or take less payload. Remove an hour of fuel, the 77L takes 7t more payload; whereas the A359 takes 5.8t more.

But the later weight variants closed the gap. Until now, where only the ATL - JNB nonstop had the latest A359s with insufficient payload. And it should be said that 6 out of 7 days, revenue potential was realized on ATL-JNB. So DL was loath to give up the revenue this flight generated. But DL also wanted to save money. So when the 278t and 280t became adequate on LAX-SYD and JFK-BOM (DL doesn't fly that many ULR routes), the CPT workaround was not enough of a disadvantage to keep the 77L fleet. Especially when promoting a captain to the 77L could cause 10 other pilot promotions and the respective retraining.

So DL did the workaround. And is saying goodbye to a fleet they just spent many millions refurbishing. They won't get a year use out of those D1 suites.

It's also worth noting (as at least one other poster has noted) that the A35J probably has enough MTOW to do JNB-ATL nonstop. Yet DL is doing the workaround with A359s. Clearly DL doesn't want another subfleet. So if the A359 can be made to work - and it can - DL takes the time hit. I say time because although the A359 has more seats than the 77L, it's not that much more. DL can't put on 100 more people at CPT . . .
 
hl8208
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:31 am

A359 officially replaces 77L on LAX-SYD as of 1/1/21.

JFK-BOM and ATL-JNB still 77L for now.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/291681/delta-nw20-boeing-777-network-changes-as-of-07jun20/
 
Ishrion
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:05 am

hl8208 wrote:
A359 officially replaces 77L on LAX-SYD as of 1/1/21.

JFK-BOM and ATL-JNB still 77L for now.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/291681/delta-nw20-boeing-777-network-changes-as-of-07jun20/


So looks like the plan is to officially retire them on December 31, 2020?
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3132
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:56 am

Delta announced A350-900 on ATL-JNB-ATL.

[url]https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/291812/delta-ns21-johannesburg-preliminary-schedule-filing-as-of-14jun20/
[/url]

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7517
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:17 am

TWA902fly wrote:
Delta announced A350-900 on ATL-JNB-ATL.

[url]https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/291812/delta-ns21-johannesburg-preliminary-schedule-filing-as-of-14jun20/
[/url]

'902


https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-14jun20/

As it says though further changes will be made. Is that schedule the same as the current proposed NS20? In which case it most likely hasn't been updated for NS21.
 
0newair0
Posts: 421
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:43 pm

359 cannot to ATLJNBATL, that is why Cape Town approval is being sought. Final routing will be ATLJNBCPTATL.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
timf
Posts: 568
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:26 pm

0newair0 wrote:
359 cannot to ATLJNBATL, that is why Cape Town approval is being sought. Final routing will be ATLJNBCPTATL.

It could operate with restrictions, but the routing through Cape Town will allow for unrestricted return flights.
 
Varsity1
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:57 pm

timf wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
359 cannot to ATLJNBATL, that is why Cape Town approval is being sought. Final routing will be ATLJNBCPTATL.

It could operate with restrictions, but the routing through Cape Town will allow for unrestricted return flights.


Negative, even Cape Town will operate with restrictions.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
SQ317
Posts: 133
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:13 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
timf wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
359 cannot to ATLJNBATL, that is why Cape Town approval is being sought. Final routing will be ATLJNBCPTATL.

It could operate with restrictions, but the routing through Cape Town will allow for unrestricted return flights.


Negative, even Cape Town will operate with restrictions.


Source?
 
TC957
Posts: 3849
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:35 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
timf wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
359 cannot to ATLJNBATL, that is why Cape Town approval is being sought. Final routing will be ATLJNBCPTATL.

It could operate with restrictions, but the routing through Cape Town will allow for unrestricted return flights.


Negative, even Cape Town will operate with restrictions.

CPT - ATL is almost the same distance as PR's MNL - JFK flight and despite MNL being hotter than CPT the 359 manages that flight.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2430
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:05 am

TC957 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
timf wrote:
It could operate with restrictions, but the routing through Cape Town will allow for unrestricted return flights.


Negative, even Cape Town will operate with restrictions.

CPT - ATL is almost the same distance as PR's MNL - JFK flight and despite MNL being hotter than CPT the 359 manages that flight.


So? DL has a heavier configuration and may have chosen equipment on their A350 that requires restrictions (e.g., DL does/did have lower MTOW versions so it isn't far fetched that other aspects of the aircraft are different). Furthermore, do you know that PR does not have restrictions on that flight? No one is saying DL can't manage CPT-ATL, but rather there are restrictions.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 409
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:34 am

Varsity1 wrote:
timf wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
359 cannot to ATLJNBATL, that is why Cape Town approval is being sought. Final routing will be ATLJNBCPTATL.

It could operate with restrictions, but the routing through Cape Town will allow for unrestricted return flights.


Negative, even Cape Town will operate with restrictions.

Provide your source, besides a multitude of other users who consistently got denied these facts. DL has 280t A359's that are 135t empty. PR are 278t and fly a route that is consistently longer but a bit, and may even be 137t. So...try again. Only DL's first 2 359's were heavy. the rest are 275t and can manage CPT. last 2-3 are 280t and like the rest will have no issues.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:51 am

Just an interesting observation. On DL's websites 39 seats are blocked on the 359 JNB-ATL. Either DL knows something we don't know, or that roughly 3.7t reduction will be enough for DL to manage JNB with the 359.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:15 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
DL has 280t A359's

Not yet they don't. Heaviest in service is 275T, only recently uprated from 268T.

They will have 280T birds on property eventually.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
777Mech
Posts: 997
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:20 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
timf wrote:
It could operate with restrictions, but the routing through Cape Town will allow for unrestricted return flights.


Negative, even Cape Town will operate with restrictions.

Provide your source, besides a multitude of other users who consistently got denied these facts. DL has 280t A359's that are 135t empty. PR are 278t and fly a route that is consistently longer but a bit, and may even be 137t. So...try again. Only DL's first 2 359's were heavy. the rest are 275t and can manage CPT. last 2-3 are 280t and like the rest will have no issues.


You're calling other users wrong, but yet your own info is incorrect. DL doesn't have any 280T birds.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:58 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
DL has 280t A359's

Not yet they don't. Heaviest in service is 275T, only recently uprated from 268T.

They will have 280T birds on property eventually.

N513DN and on are 280t. I’m pretty sure I stated it earlier in the thread. Either way the 275t can do CPT.
 
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AECM
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:02 pm

The A350 received some updates in the past and since a certain point in time all the A359 are produced with the new winglets, correspondent wing twist, door frames and nose landing gear from the A35K. These upgrades translate in the capability to reach 280ton MTOW. Looking at them from the outside the only way to notice is to check the winglets, and taking in to account this point Delta currently has two A359 in service with the new winglets, so at least these two should be capable of reaching 280ton MTOW. Now if these birds are already certified for 280 ton or if they remain still 275 ton i don't know...

Is there in the US a site similar to the UK G-INFO?
 
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qf789
Moderator
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:13 pm

Just a reminder to everyone to engage with each other in a civil manner, in other words debate the topic without making it personal
Forum Moderator
 
xwb565
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:42 pm

Thanks to another a.net user for this link. https://www.instagram.com/p/B0-WpKThyVN/. As can be seen from the third photo in the series N513DZ the pedestal shows a mtow of 617,234 lbs.
 
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scbriml
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:55 am

xwb565 wrote:
Thanks to another a.net user for this link. https://www.instagram.com/p/B0-WpKThyVN/. As can be seen from the third photo in the series N513DZ the pedestal shows a mtow of 617,234 lbs.


That would appear to lay another a.net myth to rest. :yes:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 517
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:16 pm

Dal 777's scheduled to be gone by November....also looking at other types to retire along with those already announced
https://simpleflying.com/delta-last-777-flight-fall/
 
na
Posts: 9770
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:47 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
Dal 777's scheduled to be gone by November....also looking at other types to retire along with those already announced
https://simpleflying.com/delta-last-777-flight-fall/


Does that mean that ALL 777s will be reactivated for just 3, 4 or 5 months? I guess it makes sense that at least those shortly before a major check won´t be returned to service. Looking at the fleet age most will likely only see the scrappers on board past November.
 
UA444
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:59 pm

na wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
Dal 777's scheduled to be gone by November....also looking at other types to retire along with those already announced
https://simpleflying.com/delta-last-777-flight-fall/


Does that mean that ALL 777s will be reactivated for just 3, 4 or 5 months? I guess it makes sense that at least those shortly before a major check won´t be returned to service. Looking at the fleet age most will likely only see the scrappers on board past November.

There’s already some photographs of a few of them at MZJ. I doubt they’d spend the money and effort to reactivate them only to send them back in less than 6 months. Maybe they ferry them to another facility at most.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 804
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:32 pm

UA444 wrote:
na wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
Dal 777's scheduled to be gone by November....also looking at other types to retire along with those already announced
https://simpleflying.com/delta-last-777-flight-fall/


Does that mean that ALL 777s will be reactivated for just 3, 4 or 5 months? I guess it makes sense that at least those shortly before a major check won´t be returned to service. Looking at the fleet age most will likely only see the scrappers on board past November.

There’s already some photographs of a few of them at MZJ. I doubt they’d spend the money and effort to reactivate them only to send them back in less than 6 months. Maybe they ferry them to another facility at most.


Since the pandemic struck, Delta has cut B777 ops down to a range of 6 to 9 active aircraft. There are currently 3 B777L's operational, with 1 "hot spare" stored in ATL. The B77E's consist of 3 active and 3 "hot spares" at ATL. I imagine that this group will be used to fly out the remaining service time for Delta.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines

The remainder of the B777's are in storage at MZJ, VCV and HHM and are unlikely to be returned to service, but may be consolidated at a long-term storage facility when space becomes available.
 
by738
Posts: 3113
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:05 pm

A suggestion some 'thin' transatlantics might go 767 up from 757? would seem a weird time to be upgauging.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8303
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:44 pm

by738 wrote:
A suggestion some 'thin' transatlantics might go 767 up from 757? would seem a weird time to be upgauging.



Have you seen evidence of this (planned?) upgauging? I'd guess they have plenty of everything with intercon range given the depressed schedules. Thinking of using the lie-flat 75S on JFK-LAX instead of the widebodies that had been prevalent?
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:06 pm

Knowing DL's form for oportunistic purchasing, I wonder if the recently ordered 10 A350s, arising from their LATAM deal, may arrive sooner rather than later. Airbus have other airlines demanding deferred delivery, thus freeing up near term slots for any airline with available cash.
 
FlyGuyNash
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:56 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:15 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Knowing DL's form for oportunistic purchasing, I wonder if the recently ordered 10 A350s, arising from their LATAM deal, may arrive sooner rather than later. Airbus have other airlines demanding deferred delivery, thus freeing up near term slots for any airline with available cash.


There is a rumor floating around that DL is going to take over 7 deliveries from Qatar on the 350. Only thing is Qatar only has -1000s currently left and being built.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2430
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:42 am

FlyGuyNash wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Knowing DL's form for oportunistic purchasing, I wonder if the recently ordered 10 A350s, arising from their LATAM deal, may arrive sooner rather than later. Airbus have other airlines demanding deferred delivery, thus freeing up near term slots for any airline with available cash.


There is a rumor floating around that DL is going to take over 7 deliveries from Qatar on the 350. Only thing is Qatar only has -1000s currently left and being built.


There was recently a thread on this that was quite...lively. Any additional information?
 
FlyGuyNash
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:56 am

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:07 am

jbs2886 wrote:
FlyGuyNash wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Knowing DL's form for oportunistic purchasing, I wonder if the recently ordered 10 A350s, arising from their LATAM deal, may arrive sooner rather than later. Airbus have other airlines demanding deferred delivery, thus freeing up near term slots for any airline with available cash.


There is a rumor floating around that DL is going to take over 7 deliveries from Qatar on the 350. Only thing is Qatar only has -1000s currently left and being built.


There was recently a thread on this that was quite...lively. Any additional information?


No, none yet. I got the info from what has been a very reliable source but we will see. Only time will tell and there is no rush to get these airplanes probably.

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