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Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:21 am

With the two currently being built A350s coming to Delta from the Toulouse FAL, it wouldn't surprise me if they work out a better delivery schedule with the LATAM order to pick up more capacity from the 77L loss, not to mention having more of the higher tonne A350s.

Still a smart move to pay to reject the already delivered heavier LATAM A350s, so they can just return those to the lessor. The whole premise of the deal in the first place was still having the 77L for those ULH routes, but now they need more of the higher tonnes.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:15 am

FlyGuyNash wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Knowing DL's form for oportunistic purchasing, I wonder if the recently ordered 10 A350s, arising from their LATAM deal, may arrive sooner rather than later. Airbus have other airlines demanding deferred delivery, thus freeing up near term slots for any airline with available cash.


There is a rumor floating around that DL is going to take over 7 deliveries from Qatar on the 350. Only thing is Qatar only has -1000s currently left and being built.


The 10 from LATAM were also supposed to be -1000’s, but rumor has it DL was able to change to -900’s. At this point, I’m sure Airbus will just be happy keeping the line busy.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:36 am

Dal 10Q filing of order commitments effective Mar 31 2020

Aircraft Type Purchase Commitments
A220-100 14
A220-300 50
A321-200 27
A321-200neo 100
A330-900neo(1) 32
A350-900 26
CRJ-900 4
Total 253
(1) Includes two A330-900neo lease commitments with one in each of 2020 and 2021.
LATAM A350 Commitments
We have agreed to acquire four A350 aircraft from LATAM and assumed ten of LATAM's A350 purchase commitments from Airbus, with deliveries through 2025, which are included as purchase commitments in the table above. See Note 5, "Investments," for further information on our strategic alliance with LATAM.
 
n7371f
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:19 am

I show 3512 also at 617k MTOW.
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:55 am

FlyGuyNash wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
FlyGuyNash wrote:

There is a rumor floating around that DL is going to take over 7 deliveries from Qatar on the 350. Only thing is Qatar only has -1000s currently left and being built.


There was recently a thread on this that was quite...lively. Any additional information?


No, none yet. I got the info from what has been a very reliable source but we will see. Only time will tell and there is no rush to get these airplanes probably.


Begs two questions for me (not to rehash some) - but DL may swap models like they did with the LATAM A35Js for A359s, if possible, or DL perhaps takes the A35Js in a bit of a strategic change (i.e., after COVID-19, we may see more capacity needing A35Js to major Euro hubs instead of to more non-hub destinations mixed with some performance desires with retiring the 777-200LRs). But, 7 wouldn't be an acceptable fleet size IMO for DL.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:19 am

Maybe if the cargo capacity at range was so important to DL with regard to the 77L then the A351s intended for QR might be useful in that regard. It will take a higher maximum payload and doesn’t look to have much disadvantage at long range payload either whilst saving a boat load of fuel. I wouldn’t say it’s an obvious purchase but it wouldn’t totally shock me.

Fred


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lightsaber
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:36 pm

Per this link, DL is paying $7.3 million per year to maintain each 777 (on average):
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23P0JK

No wonder DL is removing the type.
Lightsaber
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LHA320
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:11 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
FlyGuyNash wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

There was recently a thread on this that was quite...lively. Any additional information?


No, none yet. I got the info from what has been a very reliable source but we will see. Only time will tell and there is no rush to get these airplanes probably.


Begs two questions for me (not to rehash some) - but DL may swap models like they did with the LATAM A35Js for A359s, if possible, or DL perhaps takes the A35Js in a bit of a strategic change (i.e., after COVID-19, we may see more capacity needing A35Js to major Euro hubs instead of to more non-hub destinations mixed with some performance desires with retiring the 777-200LRs). But, 7 wouldn't be an acceptable fleet size IMO for DL.


As a separate aircraft type 7 aircraft wouldn't be an acceptable fleet size, but I think as a subfleet with 90% (or more) parts commonality to the A359, a fleet of 7 A35J would be doing just fine. And there is a possibility to order more if DL likes them.
Depending on how the Covid 19 crisis turns out, if AA and UA are able to fill the 77W again, DL would certainly be able to fill a A35J IMHO
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
FlyGuyNash
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:24 pm

Why do you say 7 won’t be an acceptable fleet size? I would imagine the A35J would share much of the same parts with the A359 and pilots are trained for to fly either plane. Seems like it won’t matter how many -1000/-900 DL have it’s more about the total fleet size.

Another point to me wondering about DL getting the -1000s is Qatar CEO now says they won’t take any deliveries till 2022 besides the 2 they have sitting ready for delivery and there are more aircraft with parts built and on the assembly line for Qatar so this brings some interesting questions and points but again only time will tell.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:00 pm

The A35J will work fine on those trunk routes ATL-CDG,ATL-AMS(insert JFK,DTW/MSP) where there's plenty connecting traffic and not big up front in J (40J,60 Premium Y, 60 comfort,195Y)
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:32 pm

DL operated 2 sub-types of 777 in small numbers of each for years quite happily, so I see no problem about a similar mix of 35X, the overall number of frames will be higher.
 
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AECM
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:35 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
DL operated 2 sub-types of 777 in small numbers of each for years quite happily, so I see no problem about a similar mix of 35X, the overall number of frames will be higher.


And they did it with a complete different type of engine manufacture when in the case of the A350 its the same manufacture and similar engines
 
eugdjinn
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:55 pm

I've been waiting for someone to mention the pay rate for DL pilots for the 777 as both a direct reason that the fleet never grew to more than 18 between the two variants, and as a -huge- incentive to retire the type. My understanding was that (at least in part) DL management agreed to a pay rate that was excessive for the 777, fully knowing that both AA and UA pilots would insist on DL +X%. And in making their own rate nearly prohibitive with the small fleet, the intent was to make life truly impossible ('happy bankruptcy UA!') for the competitors with serious fleets.

Was I mistaken? APC suggests now that A350 rates match those for 777. But that now means that the pilot's wages may in fact make an argument for keeping the A359 fleet minimal, just as it may have kept the 777 fleet small.

It leaves me with the thought that if indeed United were to consider letting go of their 764s, we'd see DL right there and ready to buy, despite the different engines. Similarly, I think it makes a pretty strong argument for DL to seek A33x family to do the bulk of the refleeting unless and until there is a better successor to the 763. I don't see a massive fleet of A35x aircraft in the future unless DL pilots are willing to rethink that $20+ per hour premium in the aircraft that has to carry additional pilots for rotation on long flights.
 
LHA320
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:09 pm

eugdjinn wrote:
It leaves me with the thought that if indeed United were to consider letting go of their 764s, we'd see DL right there and ready to buy, despite the different engines.


Huh? Different engines? Both 764 fleets are powered by the CF6 and the 764 is only certified on the GE CF6.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:22 pm

LHA320 wrote:
Both 764 fleets are powered by the CF6 and the 764 is only certified on the GE CF6.


Specifically, the B8F version. Another oddball engine.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:38 am

eugdjinn wrote:
I've been waiting for someone to mention the pay rate for DL pilots for the 777 as both a direct reason that the fleet never grew to more than 18 between the two variants, and as a -huge- incentive to retire the type. My understanding was that (at least in part) DL management agreed to a pay rate that was excessive for the 777, fully knowing that both AA and UA pilots would insist on DL +X%. And in making their own rate nearly prohibitive with the small fleet, the intent was to make life truly impossible ('happy bankruptcy UA!') for the competitors with serious fleets.

Was I mistaken? APC suggests now that A350 rates match those for 777. But that now means that the pilot's wages may in fact make an argument for keeping the A359 fleet minimal, just as it may have kept the 777 fleet small.


Your thinking is completely misguided. Divide wage rates by number of seats for DL widebodies and narrowbodies. The 777 and 359 are not out of whack.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... _air_lines
 
kimimm19
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:31 am

lightsaber wrote:
Per this link, DL is paying $7.3 million per year to maintain each 777 (on average):
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23P0JK

No wonder DL is removing the type.
Lightsaber


Is there a comparison available? Say in relation to similarly sized aircraft like the 787, a30, or a350?
 
eugdjinn
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

Your thinking is completely misguided. Divide wage rates by number of seats for DL widebodies and narrowbodies. The 777 and 359 are not out of whack.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... _air_lines


Oh, I get that, and I wish the A333 rate was there for comparison. I think though, and was trying to suggest that while that has long been the operative logic in ALPA negotiations, it may very well be counter-productive. Especially right now. It relies on a premise that the more passengers on board, the harder it is to fly the plane. And then, with a very long haul aircraft, runs into the need to schedule four pilots for the flight. Pretty soon, you're actually financially making the argument against growing the fleet you fly, just by what you cost your airline, aren't you? And right at the moment when each of our airlines is struggling, and (at least I would think) DL pilots would want to encourage an investment in the A35x family - perhaps, just perhaps, it might be smart to offer to fly the whole of the A33x/A35x fleet at the A332 rate or close. (Yes, I know, misguided. Better to have fewer airplanes and fewer pilots than that. But then, I started at an airline that had the same group flying the whole CRJ family, and made only a bit of wage bump for 700/900 flying. I guess I look at what might be in the long term best interests of the airline and it's entire workforce.)


On the 764 engine - oops. Sorry, I guess I believed bad info posted months ago by others that the UA and DL fleets were not the same aircraft and would present a minor difficulty if ever in possession of one airline. I think this year will see some horse trading to bring them all to one house or another.
 
Alias1024
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:01 pm

eugdjinn wrote:
I wish the A333 rate was there for comparison. I think though, and was trying to suggest that while that has long been the operative logic in ALPA negotiations, it may very well be counter-productive. Especially right now. It relies on a premise that the more passengers on board, the harder it is to fly the plane.


The A333 rate is the same as the A332 and the 764.

The main point in the logic behind higher pay for larger aircraft isn’t related to difficulty of operation, it’s revenue. A 777 pilot can potentially earn a much greater amount of revenue for their employer than a 737 pilot over the same time period.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:21 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Per this link, DL is paying $7.3 million per year to maintain each 777 (on average):
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23P0JK

No wonder DL is removing the type.
Lightsaber


Is there a comparison available? Say in relation to similarly sized aircraft like the 787, a30, or a350?

If one is going to perform heavy maintenance on an A380, the projected maintenance was $22 million/year (read the thread, good discussion):
viewtopic.php?t=774921

I found old stats that a Delta 777-200 cost $630 in maintenance per flight hour versus $621 for the A330.

https://www.planestats.com/bhsw_2014sep

The big drop in A330 mx costs started in 2009 with increased maintenance intervals, so the above should ratio ok. So not much savings on an A330, the savings being on removing 18 maintenance intensive widebodies from the fleet.

Lightsaber
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Vicenza
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:39 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
eugdjinn wrote:
I wish the A333 rate was there for comparison. I think though, and was trying to suggest that while that has long been the operative logic in ALPA negotiations, it may very well be counter-productive. Especially right now. It relies on a premise that the more passengers on board, the harder it is to fly the plane.


The A333 rate is the same as the A332 and the 764.

The main point in the logic behind higher pay for larger aircraft isn’t related to difficulty of operation, it’s revenue. A 777 pilot can potentially earn a much greater amount of revenue for their employer than a 737 pilot over the same time period.


Surely logic would dictate/show that no pilot 'earns' revenue for his/her employer irrespective of what plane he/she flies. He/she merely pilots whatever aircraft is flown on any given route and has no input on which one does so. I am also certainly not in the camp of the more passengers on an aircraft the harder it is to fly.....absolute nonsense.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:50 pm

I would have thought the rate of pay scales broadly with pax number due to increased responsibility.

Fred


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DL717
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:35 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
I would have thought the rate of pay scales broadly with pax number due to increased responsibility.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not always. During negotiations they’ll look at a fleet shelf life and the intended replacement fleet to negotiate salaries over the longer term for a new type.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
kimimm19
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:45 am

lightsaber wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Per this link, DL is paying $7.3 million per year to maintain each 777 (on average):
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23P0JK

No wonder DL is removing the type.
Lightsaber


Is there a comparison available? Say in relation to similarly sized aircraft like the 787, a30, or a350?

If one is going to perform heavy maintenance on an A380, the projected maintenance was $22 million/year (read the thread, good discussion):
viewtopic.php?t=774921

I found old stats that a Delta 777-200 cost $630 in maintenance per flight hour versus $621 for the A330.

https://www.planestats.com/bhsw_2014sep

The big drop in A330 mx costs started in 2009 with increased maintenance intervals, so the above should ratio ok. So not much savings on an A330, the savings being on removing 18 maintenance intensive widebodies from the fleet.

Lightsaber


What an incredibly insightful resource. Really highlights the different methodologies around the models of buying new vs old (like Delta's reduced cost of ownership in paid off plane vs a new plane with better fuel burn).
 
Williamsb747
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:14 pm

It’s official CPT now available for booking ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... cape-town/
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
CPT JNB
 
jagraham
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:52 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
DL operated 2 sub-types of 777 in small numbers of each for years quite happily, so I see no problem about a similar mix of 35X, the overall number of frames will be higher.


DL is not happy any more because of the number of pilot moves all the different airplane types cause
 
Ishrion
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:43 pm

From Delta’s latest 10-Q filings, they’ve confirmed the 777s will be retired by October 2020.

Delta has already retired two 777-200ERs and four 777-200LRs according to the table from this: https://crankyflier.com/2020/07/17/3-li ... -goes-big/
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:47 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Delta has already retired two 777-200ERs and four 777-200LRs according to the table from this: https://crankyflier.com/2020/07/17/3-li ... -goes-big/


I guess that means that the ones that are already at boneyards (MZJ, VCV, etc). will stay there and not be flown out. Wonder if the rest will be ‘scattered’ across the US boneyards or will head to one location like the Mad Dogs...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
 
Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:59 pm

Ishrion wrote:
From Delta’s latest 10-Q filings, they’ve confirmed the 777s will be retired by October 2020.

Delta has already retired two 777-200ERs and four 777-200LRs according to the table from this: https://crankyflier.com/2020/07/17/3-li ... -goes-big/


With all the A350s online again, and another coming soon, it's the perfect time to put the 777s to sleep permanently.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:03 am

DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
Ishrion
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:10 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


Not all of those routes will resume upon Delta retiring the 777s, and they've got more A330neos and A350s on order on top of existing A330ceos that can fly the shorter routes.
 
LAOCA
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:32 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:18 am

Lootess wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
From Delta’s latest 10-Q filings, they’ve confirmed the 777s will be retired by October 2020.

Delta has already retired two 777-200ERs and four 777-200LRs according to the table from this: https://crankyflier.com/2020/07/17/3-li ... -goes-big/


With all the A350s online again, and another coming soon, it's the perfect time to put the 777s to sleep permanently.


It will be interesting to see the revised A350 delivery schedule. I don't think DL will be rushing to boost CAPEX again. The 777/77L write-down was tagged at $1.4 Billion in the 10-Q 7/15/20.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:48 pm

LAOCA wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.

That also assumes none of these flights get the chop which I highly doubt given the post-Corona travel environment and demand. For one I think ATL-PVG will not be here and probably JFK-BOM as well.

Michael
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:47 pm

LAOCA wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.


using an A330 in LAX-HND is a joke, LAX-TYO is a brutally competitive market, the A330 does not measure up to the B777 of JAL, ANA and SQ or the B787 of AA and UA

And the A339 still have not arrived from the factory, more A350 are needed
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
TonyClifton
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:00 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
LAOCA wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.


using an A330 in LAX-HND is a joke, LAX-TYO is a brutally competitive market, the A330 does not measure up to the B777 of JAL, ANA and SQ or the B787 of AA and UA

And the A339 still have not arrived from the factory, more A350 are needed

A339neo looks like it has quite a nice product, and 8 abreast economy beats 10 abreast on the 777 I’d say.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:44 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
LAOCA wrote:

All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.


using an A330 in LAX-HND is a joke, LAX-TYO is a brutally competitive market, the A330 does not measure up to the B777 of JAL, ANA and SQ or the B787 of AA and UA

And the A339 still have not arrived from the factory, more A350 are needed

A339neo looks like it has quite a nice product, and 8 abreast economy beats 10 abreast on the 777 I’d say.

DL already used the A333 on HND for a while, the bro would be an upgrade with D1 and PS though. That would be a competitive product.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:04 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:

using an A330 in LAX-HND is a joke, LAX-TYO is a brutally competitive market, the A330 does not measure up to the B777 of JAL, ANA and SQ or the B787 of AA and UA

And the A339 still have not arrived from the factory, more A350 are needed


You may be confusing the competitiveness of the airframe (suitable seat count in the market, CASM) with the choice of customer configurations.

Yes, some 339s have been delivered. DL can get new 339s just as easily as they can get new 359s.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:14 pm

Delta had to retire the 777s. As more time has gone by and all signs point to global demand taking even longer to come back , delta clearly made the right decision. They have too many planes coming if anything now. We will not see all of their long haul routes come back at once, I imagine cargo demand is dictating what will be flown more than anything.
 
ItnStln
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:59 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
A339neo looks like it has quite a nice product, and 8 abreast economy beats 10 abreast on the 777 I’d say.

It depends on the seats.
 
Ellofiend
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:30 am

Any ideas as to the last flight of the DL 77L yet, or too far away to even hypothesise?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:46 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Delta had to retire the 777s. As more time has gone by and all signs point to global demand taking even longer to come back , delta clearly made the right decision. They have too many planes coming if anything now. We will not see all of their long haul routes come back at once, I imagine cargo demand is dictating what will be flown more than anything.

As much as I love the 777 as a plane, I must agree with you. International air travel will not recover quickly and it is best to cut a subfleet unlikely to see a resurgence within 2 years.

This will be an industry wide cull of larger widebodies, which we've seen in A380, 747, and 777 retirements.

The freight conversion houses will have so much stock, I wonder if the will consider 77L conversions?
As they will be cheap, there won't be any business case for the older 77E. I'm not saying the business case for 77Ls is a certainty, I just know the airframes are now available and that is really the only resale hope for DL's used 77Ls. The 77Es have poor resale.

Lightsaber
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Lootess
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:01 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
LAOCA wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.


using an A330 in LAX-HND is a joke, LAX-TYO is a brutally competitive market, the A330 does not measure up to the B777 of JAL, ANA and SQ or the B787 of AA and UA

And the A339 still have not arrived from the factory, more A350 are needed


Delta had been using the A330 successfully on LAX-HND for quite a long time, packed to the bone. Initially they had bad Haneda slot times from the first pull of slots, yet still better than the first go around of SEA-HND.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
From Delta’s latest 10-Q filings, they’ve confirmed the 777s will be retired by October 2020.

Delta has already retired two 777-200ERs and four 777-200LRs according to the table from this: https://crankyflier.com/2020/07/17/3-li ... -goes-big/


With all the A350s online again, and another coming soon, it's the perfect time to put the 777s to sleep permanently.


It will be interesting to see the revised A350 delivery schedule. I don't think DL will be rushing to boost CAPEX again. The 777/77L write-down was tagged at $1.4 Billion in the 10-Q 7/15/20.


Yep, wouldn't be surprised if the the two upcoming new A350s in Toulouse will probably the last for awhile before the LATAM revised schedule kicks in, likely until we get out of this mess. But Delta could certainly use those two today to backfill the 777s.

Nonetheless I love the A350, I will always remember how I slept like a baby to ICN in Delta One when it wasn't even a month old, and even going back in Premium Select. It'll do just fine to JNB-CPT. Someday that route can go non-stop again, but certainly not worth keeping the 77L just for that purpose.
 
danipawa
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:18 pm

can those LR find a new home ?
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:28 pm

danipawa wrote:
can those LR find a new home ?


Unlikely in the new post COVID era, Etihad weren’t able to find buyers for their LRs and they weren’t too shabby. And this was in the pre-COVID 2018/2019-ish world when air travel was on the up.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:37 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
danipawa wrote:
can those LR find a new home ?


Unlikely in the new post COVID era, Etihad weren’t able to find buyers for their LRs and they weren’t too shabby. And this was in the pre-COVID 2018/2019-ish world when air travel was on the up.

With all the lower cost to fly frames available (e.g., first 788), the only hope is a freight conversion. However, that depends on IAI Bedek adding the type to conversion. If 77W values drop as much as I think they will, there will be no conversion. If 77Ws hold mire value, than the 77Ls might be converted.

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777Mech
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:16 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
LAOCA wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.


using an A330 in LAX-HND is a joke, LAX-TYO is a brutally competitive market, the A330 does not measure up to the B777 of JAL, ANA and SQ or the B787 of AA and UA

And the A339 still have not arrived from the factory, more A350 are needed


What?? The NEOS are absolutely on the property and have been for some time. They have 5 frames currently, and I believe 2 more are ready to be delivered in TLS.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:30 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
and probably JFK-BOM as well.

DL retained its India nonstop during the pandemic due to the cargo demand alone. Why would they "probably" cut it, when given the chance for additional revenue?



RainerBoeing777 wrote:
using an A330 in LAX-HND is a joke

Um, based on what? They've flown A330s (and 767s) on LAX-TYO and done just fine.


RainerBoeing777 wrote:
LAX-TYO is a brutally competitive market, the A330 does not measure up to the B777 of JAL, ANA and SQ or the B787 of AA and UA

"Measure up" in what way?


RainerBoeing777 wrote:
And the A339 still have not arrived from the factory, more A350 are needed

Huh? They've had their A339s for more than a year.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Narfish641
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:42 pm

Do we have an indication on how many 777s are left in the fleet and their location per WFU? I did see one 777-200ER on the North Side Hangers while I was picking up a family member from the airport. Never thought it would be that freaking huge compared to spotting on the South Deck.
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1242
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Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:31 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
LAOCA wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL needs more A350 it is impossible for them to fly 13 A350 you are all routes

LAX-SYD/HND/PVG
ATL-HND/ICN/JNB/PVG
DTW-ICN/PKX/PVG/HND
MSP-HND/ICN
JFK-BOM
Much more than 13 A350s needed


All 330 variants and most the 76-300ERs can fly LAX-HND.
All 330 variants can fly LAX-PVG, although in some westbound cases the -300 may be payload restricted.
330-900 and -200, and in many cases the -300 are capable MSP to at least HND.
Some of the routes from DTW are 330 capable as well.

With that said, on longer heavier routes the 350 has a lower passenger cost. In the anywhere near future, 39 is too many 350s. 13 may be a little light but if planning a fleet now, too few is better than too many.

That also assumes none of these flights get the chop which I highly doubt given the post-Corona travel environment and demand. For one I think ATL-PVG will not be here and probably JFK-BOM as well.

Michael


JFK-BOM is an interesting one for DL. If they drop it, I can see UA or AA launching ORD-BOM. The issue for DL is, if they don’t play in the Indian market with a mix of one stop EU and nonstops, they run the risk of being sidelined by premium pax ex India. I think the flight will come back. India is too big of a market from the US and giving up just gives advantages to their competitors (be it UA or ME3) People forget that the ME3 rely on indian traffic to keep their US flights going. Post COVID vaccine, I think there will be a lot of pent up VFR demand to and from India/US with many indian tourists picking the familiar US for vacation given safety concerns.

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