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air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 12:44 am
by AIRTRANSAT767
Hello everybody ! do you think air transat should you replace air canada rouge? As a main partner? one like Lufthansa and eurowings?

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:31 am
by LMFNINJA
Anything is better than Rouge. Undoubtedly the most hated Canadian airline.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:34 am
by AIRTRANSAT767
For me personally it is a company which means nothing just the name. Air Transat which 32 years of experience air transat is stronger than air canada rouge

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:35 am
by codyul
I would have thought so, up until Covid. I think the deal is either not going to be completed or Fed and provincial governments will broker a deal involving little cash.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:48 am
by alexdelzotto
Why did you start a new topic?

viewtopic.php?t=1422691

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:02 am
by Thomaas
Unlikely that the deal will go through at the agreed price, but Air Canada retired just enough aircraft at Rouge to basically zero out the historical Transat capacity if the deal goes through. As far as whether or not they will keep an LCC brand, AT's costs are way too high for the type of operation they have, as evidenced by their dismal profitability over the years.

Long term I except all the flying to be brought back to AC mainline with a fleet of dense A330s to cover TATL and sun destinations in the winter. AC's 737s and A220s are quite dense, yet premium enough to generate higher yields where the market supports it, limiting the cost advantage of an LCC operation. The reason Rouge was so successful for Air Canada was the ability to take old aircraft (low capital output) and densify them to generate higher revenues. Going from 211 to 282 on a 767 and from 120 to 136 on the A319s, all of it with lower crew costs, was a winning formula. With the new aircraft coming in being about 20% more fuel-efficient than the previous generation, this cost advantage is now negated. With most of the Rouge fleet approaching retirement in the next 5 years, the company likely determined that there was limited return on ordering newer airplanes for the subsidiary.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:03 am
by AIRTRANSAT767
alexdelzotto wrote:
Why did you start a new topic?

viewtopic.php?t=1422691


no relation yours

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:51 am
by sanjet
Prior to the virus, would have been a good deal.
At this point I think AC's only goal now is cash burn reduction. That might mean ditching the Air Transat deal if the government imposes way too many competition restrictions on the merge.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 3:14 am
by ACA772LR
LMFNINJA wrote:
Anything is better than Rouge. Undoubtedly the most hated Canadian airline.


According to who? That’s why they had 85-90% load factors...

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:50 am
by longhauler
ACA772LR wrote:
LMFNINJA wrote:
Anything is better than Rouge. Undoubtedly the most hated Canadian airline.


According to who? That’s why they had 85-90% load factors...


Not to mention a repeat rate in the high 80s.
People love to complain, especially on this site but when booking a flight, cheapest wins every time. Clearly Rouge fulfilled passenger expectations. (Like Transat, for the record.)

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:20 am
by ACDC8
longhauler wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:
LMFNINJA wrote:
Anything is better than Rouge. Undoubtedly the most hated Canadian airline.


According to who? That’s why they had 85-90% load factors...


Not to mention a repeat rate in the high 80s.
People love to complain, especially on this site but when booking a flight, cheapest wins every time. Clearly Rouge fulfilled passenger expectations. (Like Transat, for the record.)

In all fairness, most people who booked, booked Air Canada, it's not like Rouge had their own separate booking portal. Most people didn't even realize that their flight was operated by Rouge, nor did many probably even care so saying that Rouge filled their cabins because they were Rouge, isn't quite accurate.

Rouge had an OK product (other than the legroom on the A319/321s). Flew them several times between YYC/YVR and LAS over the years. Paying an extra $150 for Premium Rouge upgrade was a pretty decent deal.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:59 am
by fraT
ACDC8 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
ACA772LR wrote:

According to who? That’s why they had 85-90% load factors...


Not to mention a repeat rate in the high 80s.
People love to complain, especially on this site but when booking a flight, cheapest wins every time. Clearly Rouge fulfilled passenger expectations. (Like Transat, for the record.)

In all fairness, most people who booked, booked Air Canada, it's not like Rouge had their own separate booking portal. Most people didn't even realize that their flight was operated by Rouge, nor did many probably even care so saying that Rouge filled their cabins because they were Rouge, isn't quite accurate.



You have a point for the first booking but not for "repeaters". I am pretty sure that people who were annoyed of sitting in a Rouge plane when booking via AC.com, would check closer the second time.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:00 am
by SpaceshipDC10
alexdelzotto wrote:
Why did you start a new topic?

viewtopic.php?t=1422691


That thread's last post was 8 months ago, that means it can't be continued.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:00 am
by ACDC8
fraT wrote:

You have a point for the first booking but not for "repeaters". I am pretty sure that people who were annoyed of sitting in a Rouge plane when booking via AC.com, would check closer the second time.

You're giving the Canadian travelling public a lot of credit :rotfl:

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:10 am
by Blerg
alexdelzotto wrote:
Why did you start a new topic?

viewtopic.php?t=1422691


Because that thread has not been updated in eight months and not everyone wants to go through 7 pages of discussion.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:38 am
by MIflyer12
AIRTRANSAT767 wrote:
For me personally it is a company which means nothing just the name. Air Transat which 32 years of experience air transat is stronger than air canada rouge


I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Do you want AC to keep AirTransat as a separate brand with its own advertising, with a separate fleet and crew work groups?

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:50 am
by russyyz
Regarding booking rouge vs AC mainline: most people may notice at some point but it's not like there's a lot of choice. You go to the AC website to book a flight, and often rouge was the only choice: any leisure destination nonstop from the big ciites. Sure I prefer not to fly rouge but if I wanted nonstop to many odd cities in Europe (Barcelona, Zagreb, Dubrovnik, Budapest, Bucharest, Lisbon, Glasgow, Manchester) it was rouge. 767 was okay if dense. My other option to places like Florida was Westjet which is okay but still 3x3. So then it comes to price and they were often similar. We used to dislike Transat's dense seating, until rouge came along. Transat then said they were going to further densify to compete. People have good and bad stories for flights on any airline. In the end, the convenience and price will win. I love the Boeing 767 but alas that's a gonner so what are my choices. Even with the US carriers, it will be back down to 737 or Airbus narrow-bodies. No one will provide any difference: so who goes nonstop for a decent price?!

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:58 am
by ZRHYYZ773ER
I haven't flown AC Rouge yet only Air Transat's A310-300 on the BSL-YUL leg and it was quite good for a vacation airline, friendly crew, smooth ride
the flight was great as we had a great view over Greenland and Newfoundland....
Now I'm even more greatful I did that flight as it was my first and last 310 T/A flight

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:26 am
by amstone17
LMFNINJA wrote:
Anything is better than Rouge. Undoubtedly the most hated Canadian airline.


Uh, you seem to have misspelled Swoop/Flair. Rouge has been a huge success for AC and was doing very well before the pandemic hit, taking a lot of business back from Sunwing/Transat/Westjet on the leisure routes.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 12:47 pm
by yzfElite
AC, like everyone else in the world right now is trying to figure out what to do next. They made the decision to retire the entire 767 fleet, presumably knowing that leisure market is all but dried up for the next 14-18 months or more, as well as knowing that the TS acquisition was also on the books. I'm not sure what the acquisition will ultimately cost, but presumably they would want to find some way to transition that into the Rouge cost structure rather than mainline in order to continue in the long-term down the successful path they had with Rouge. As much as I didn't like Rouge, I did like the cost structure and I certainly liked that I could use many of my Altitude benefits flying them which I wouldn't on a competitor (e.g. baggage allowances, lounges, etc).

The TS purchase may come with perfect timing to increase lift as it is needed again in order to cover potentially still grounded MAXs and slowly returning leisure travel in summer 2021/winter 2022.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:35 pm
by crosscheckyyz
LMFNINJA wrote:
Anything is better than Rouge. Undoubtedly the most hated Canadian airline.


Can you explain why its the most hated Canadian airline?

I guess as a seasoned non-rev traveller you have a lot of insight. I guess beggers shouldn't be choosers.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:47 pm
by beechnut
One small problem: AC offered $18/share for Air Transat. At the end of trading yesterday, TS was trading $7.37/share. I can't see the deal going through on the original terms. Perhaps government (read: our) largesse could sweeten the deal "to save jobs", but this deal is by no means a given even if Transport Canada ends up approving it.

Beech

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:58 pm
by Skywatcher
Don't forget the $40 million TS/AC deal break fee owed by AC if the deal doesn't occur. That will have to be included in any restructured deal.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 2:20 pm
by sanjet
Skywatcher wrote:
Don't forget the $40 million TS/AC deal break fee owed by AC if the deal doesn't occur. That will have to be included in any restructured deal.


At this point, probably worth the break up fee for AC and walk away.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 3:16 pm
by beechnut
Skywatcher wrote:
Don't forget the $40 million TS/AC deal break fee owed by AC if the deal doesn't occur. That will have to be included in any restructured deal.


Well given the current circumstances, is it better to burn $40 m in cash, or $720 m in cash for a dubious purchase? And do we know if there is a "force majeure" clause in the contract?

What real value would a vacation airline with high costs have in the next couple of years, other than some of the better aircraft which they could probably pick up at a bargain anyway if TS goes under?

If they took over TS's A321s, 6 of which are NEO LRs (some not yet delivered), thye will end up, at my count, with 40 A321s between Mainline and Rouge, 6 of which would be able to nicely deal with the lower demand on transatlantic routes.

Beech

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
by drgmobile
As an Air Canada frequent flyer, I am quite disappointed to see Rouge go away. Perhaps if I was taller than my 5'8" height or had a large body size, I might feel different. From my perspective as a customer, I liked the breadth of options Rouge provided over an expanded network. It brought direct Canada service to a host of destinations that AC didn't seem to think was profitable otherwise, i.e. nonstop service to Barcelona, Athens. For long-haul flights, Rouge Premium was a good half-way point between full lie-flat J and a tightly packed Y cabin, virtually identical to the premium economy product on mainline widebody. If the Transat transaction goes through, the customer in me wants to seem them use "Air Canada Bleu" for that.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:14 pm
by boeing767300
LMFNINJA wrote:
Anything is better than Rouge. Undoubtedly the most hated Canadian airline.

I didn’t know that there was a survey to determine Canada’s most hated airline! Unless the writer can substantiate this ridiculous claim the MODERATOR should remove the post.

Re: air canada / airtransat

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:47 pm
by steveinbc
I've flown Rouge and Air Transat on both airlines narrow bodies and wide bodies as well as up front and in the back. Air Transat is superior to Rouge in all these experiences. That said, Rouge is still pretty decent especially up the front. Also purchasing of upgrades on Rouge is reasonably priced usually. Furthermore when booking on AC it has stated for some time now if you are in Rouge and provides a description of the offering.
I do think that Air Transat has the better brand and having two "non mainline" offerings would generally be confusing. So, if the purchase goes ahead, it would make sense from that perspective. Finally it will be the cost structure for both airlines that determines which stay and which goes....and I have no visibility into that