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Opus99
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:59 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
This article, posted just a few hours ago, goes quite contrary to the sentiment in this thread. Even 60 to 70% is 70 to 80 aircraft flying again by December.


This thread is based on rumors, nothing more. It's clear Emirates is working hard on returning the A380's to service.

True, but we also Emirates is the champion of saying one thing and doing another....if indeed they are really sacking these pilots in the volume that these articles are saying, then i don't know what 60 to 70% return the COO is using to deceive us. anyway time will tell.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:50 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
This article, posted just a few hours ago, goes quite contrary to the sentiment in this thread. Even 60 to 70% is 70 to 80 aircraft flying again by December.


This thread is based on rumors, nothing more. It's clear Emirates is working hard on returning the A380's to service.
by firing all the a380 pilots?
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:24 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
The axe continues to swing, a further 840 FlightCrew have been shown the door, as predicted by yours truly the A380 will shrink to 40 airframes or less. I’m starting to wonder if the naysayers on this site will actually understand that what I’ve been saying all along comes inside the decision makers rooms.


What is very inaccurate is that it is only A380 pilots, the cuts are not being done by fleet. Other metrics like training history/poor performance it would seem are being implemented.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:54 am

zeke wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
The axe continues to swing, a further 840 FlightCrew have been shown the door, as predicted by yours truly the A380 will shrink to 40 airframes or less. I’m starting to wonder if the naysayers on this site will actually understand that what I’ve been saying all along comes inside the decision makers rooms.


What is very inaccurate is that it is only A380 pilots, the cuts are not being done by fleet. Other metrics like training history/poor performance it would seem are being implemented.


Given Zeke that I am now one of the currently remaining employed 777 pilots, I am well aware that their have been redundancies on my fleet..but they pale in numbers compared to the 380 crews.
No one truly knows the metrics used as individuals with clean training histories and impeccable attendance have been shown the door, moreover the suspicion is that it’s been based simply on cost which makes sense in EKs case.
It’s also interesting that AAR was trotted out to front the media to spin the company line regarding plans going forward, he neglects to mention that there is not a snowballs chance in Jumeriah that 60-70% of the 380 fleet can be operated by the 325 or so remaining A380 crews.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:46 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
zeke wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:
The axe continues to swing, a further 840 FlightCrew have been shown the door, as predicted by yours truly the A380 will shrink to 40 airframes or less. I’m starting to wonder if the naysayers on this site will actually understand that what I’ve been saying all along comes inside the decision makers rooms.


What is very inaccurate is that it is only A380 pilots, the cuts are not being done by fleet. Other metrics like training history/poor performance it would seem are being implemented.


Given Zeke that I am now one of the currently remaining employed 777 pilots, I am well aware that their have been redundancies on my fleet..but they pale in numbers compared to the 380 crews.
No one truly knows the metrics used as individuals with clean training histories and impeccable attendance have been shown the door, moreover the suspicion is that it’s been based simply on cost which makes sense in EKs case.
It’s also interesting that AAR was trotted out to front the media to spin the company line regarding plans going forward, he neglects to mention that there is not a snowballs chance in Jumeriah that 60-70% of the 380 fleet can be operated by the 325 or so remaining A380 crews.


Valid point regarding AARedha.

Also, speaks to poor standard reporting by the Bloomberg's.

Wish the best to you emiratesdriver. :)
 
astuteman
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:57 am

Revelation wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
marcelh wrote:
P2P is greatly exaggerated. Most 787 and 350 are connecting hubs. IMHO P2P growth will come from NB

Yah you connect to a major hub in your country then you can fly to the destination country. You don’t need to go to Dubai.

i think the hub-to-hub, hub-to-point, and point-to-point models all have merit. The real question of the 90s was: where will the growth be? Airbus bet heavily via the A380 that it would be hub-to-hub and ended up with a financial disaster. Luckily for them Boeing ended up with their own financial disaster when they screwed up the 787 and Airbus have had enough success via A320, A330 and A350 products to get past the A380's financial disaster.


I think it would be fair to say that Airbus bet heavily across the board.

The A320 for genuine point-to-point
The A330/A330NEO and A350 for the hub-points similar to the 787
The A380 for large hub-hub.

One of the three didn't pay off.

Rgds
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:08 am

Truly bypassing large hubs is not going to be something that happens regardless of what plane is built. There are way too many moving parts that will always work against that.

1. If the aim is to connect a smaller airport, that does not have enough demand to sustain competition, then prices from the smaller airport will always be high due to a lack of competition.
2. Airlines still try to justify flying non stop by charging higher fares than a connecting flight because people that travel for business prefer that. Price sensitive consumers will always take that connecting flight, and most likely through a busy hub airport that offers lots of competition.
3. Whichever way you want to look at it, consumer prefer flying bigger planes over narrow bodies when it comes to longer haul flights. They will similarly fly them to larger hubs that have slot constraints because these airports have the demand to sustain those bigger jets.

There is a jet for every application, and while a bigger jet may not make sense for an airline on one route, you will see VLA's flying similar length routes or even shorter for other airlines. Emirates as is, will be OK once things start picking up.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:25 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
Given Zeke that I am now one of the currently remaining employed 777 pilots, I am well aware that their have been redundancies on my fleet..but they pale in numbers compared to the 380 crews.
No one truly knows the metrics used as individuals with clean training histories and impeccable attendance have been shown the door, moreover the suspicion is that it’s been based simply on cost which makes sense in EKs case.
It’s also interesting that AAR was trotted out to front the media to spin the company line regarding plans going forward, he neglects to mention that there is not a snowballs chance in Jumeriah that 60-70% of the 380 fleet can be operated by the 325 or so remaining A380 crews.



Just thinking about this logically, airlines are looking to slash costs as soon as possible. So letting go of pilots and other staff is a easy way to do that, especially if you are cutting the flights you have. Now with the A380 being the A380, when capacity is slashed it will be the first to go as the demand will be better matched by the smaller aircraft in your fleet. For EK this is the 77W. So you logically expect more A380's to be sent to storage and subsequently you expect more A380 pilots to be let go to save on salaries.

If EK's fleet consisted of 779 and A359's, you would expect the majority of the 779 to be stored at this time and subsequently 779 pilots to be let go as well. The question is will demand pick up again in the next couple of years where the stored aircraft can be restored to the schedule and logically the hiring of pilots will follow that.

The trend at EK before the pandemic was to look at rightsizing the aircraft for a route by looking at aircraft that is smaller than the 77W. We can see this with the A359 order. The bad luck for your fellow colleagues that are Airbus pilots that the A359 is not on the property right now.

My guess is EK is betting that those pilots that they are letting go will not find work easily elsewhere so once demand pick up they will be able to hire them back quickly. Welcome to capitalism I suppose.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:26 am

Opus99 wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
This article, posted just a few hours ago, goes quite contrary to the sentiment in this thread. Even 60 to 70% is 70 to 80 aircraft flying again by December.


This thread is based on rumors, nothing more. It's clear Emirates is working hard on returning the A380's to service.

True, but we also Emirates is the champion of saying one thing and doing another....if indeed they are really sacking these pilots in the volume that these articles are saying, then i don't know what 60 to 70% return the COO is using to deceive us. anyway time will tell.


32andBelow wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
This article, posted just a few hours ago, goes quite contrary to the sentiment in this thread. Even 60 to 70% is 70 to 80 aircraft flying again by December.


This thread is based on rumors, nothing more. It's clear Emirates is working hard on returning the A380's to service.
by firing all the a380 pilots?


The A380's are parked, so EK doesn't need the pilots hence they are fired. EK can hire again when the bulk of the fleet is restored by December. At least it allows Emirates to save cash for some 6 months. Or did you expect EK to pay salaries for several for months when there is no work?
Good moaning!
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:14 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
The A380's are parked, so EK doesn't need the pilots hence they are fired. EK can hire again when the bulk of the fleet is restored by December. At least it allows Emirates to save cash for some 6 months. Or did you expect EK to pay salaries for several for months when there is no work?


Story I’m told is the remaining pilots have had a 70% pay cut.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Charlie252
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:36 am

All pilots on 50% basic salary.

Redundant pilots go back to 100% for the three months of the their notice period.
 
Opus99
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:49 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

This thread is based on rumors, nothing more. It's clear Emirates is working hard on returning the A380's to service.

True, but we also Emirates is the champion of saying one thing and doing another....if indeed they are really sacking these pilots in the volume that these articles are saying, then i don't know what 60 to 70% return the COO is using to deceive us. anyway time will tell.


32andBelow wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

This thread is based on rumors, nothing more. It's clear Emirates is working hard on returning the A380's to service.
by firing all the a380 pilots?


The A380's are parked, so EK doesn't need the pilots hence they are fired. EK can hire again when the bulk of the fleet is restored by December. At least it allows Emirates to save cash for some 6 months. Or did you expect EK to pay salaries for several for months when there is no work?

So the pilots they’ve sacked will be rehired in 6 months? If they wanted to keep those pilots they would’ve put them in a pool of unpaid leave or something, still allowing them to carry out a recency etc. But it’s very obvious Emirates has no intention for many of those pilots to return.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:30 am

enzo011 wrote:
The trend at EK before the pandemic was to look at rightsizing the aircraft for a route by looking at aircraft that is smaller than the 77W. We can see this with the A359 order.


Is there any verifiable public evidence? Sure there was a lot of talk.

They should have acted upon such trend 10 years back and ordered smaller than the 77W.

What happened to that trend when A350 were cancelled (or) when saying 787 is too small.

Now the iceberg has been spotted, Titanic is not going turn easily.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Is there any verifiable public evidence? Sure there was a lot of talk.

They should have acted upon such trend 10 years back and ordered smaller than the 77W.

What happened to that trend when A350 were cancelled (or) when saying 787 is too small.

Now the iceberg has been spotted, Titanic is not going turn easily.



They did order the A359 and looked at the A330neo, if that is what you are looking for. That, for me at least in my very loose definition of trend :biggrin: , is going away from their original plan. I agree that they should have looked elsewhere than the 77W and A380 years ago, but much like many economists in the US who seemed to think the property market will never fail, so did those in charge at EK apparently think they would have unlimited growth forever.
 
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par13del
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:22 pm

enzo011 wrote:
My guess is EK is betting that those pilots that they are letting go will not find work easily elsewhere so once demand pick up they will be able to hire them back quickly. Welcome to capitalism I suppose.

It is not easy now for a pilot to get a job at another airline or carrier, but if one is playing percentages, is it easier for a A380 or a 777 pilot?
More important would be the length of time and training to convert, ooops, I forgot the elephant in the room at airlines, unions and senior list.
 
ScottB
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
the segment which needs more attention is Small Capacity Long Range (SCLR). Unless I missed news about TATL capable A220/E195.

Big orders for WB/VLA made both A&B sloppy, kept them away from innovations in NB. Everyone knows where those orders came from.


Small Capacity Long Range is a relatively small niche. The 757 could do that 30 years ago (although far less efficiently than current generation aircraft) but most were ordered for the capacity they could provide on shorter routes -- just like the original A321. And the niche of ~180 seats transatlantic wasn't enough to keep the 757 in production.

The A220 can do short transatlantic flights, just as the 737-800 and A320 can. The market niche for a 200-seat aircraft with 4000 nm range is small compared to the narrowbody market as a whole. Something like the A321neoXLROMGPDQWTFLOL is basically the byproduct of improvements in the family as a whole. Thanks to greater efficiency (mostly in the engines) Airbus can address this market segment. But it's certainly not large enough to justify an entire new aircraft program on its own.
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:31 pm

Charlie252 wrote:
All pilots on 50% basic salary.

Redundant pilots go back to 100% for the three months of the their notice period.


Even after being terminated don’t they go into 25% basic pay, free health care and accommodation until they leave the country ?

That’s the UAE sponsorship visa conditions isn’t it ?

par13del wrote:
More important would be the length of time and training to convert


There is short cross crew qualification course from the A380 to any other Airbus FBW, as long as you have 200 hrs on the A380.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Charlie252
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:42 pm

The 25% is for people who can not be repatriated because of COVID etc after last day of service.

I think by Sept/Oct when all those made redundant reach their end of Service, it will be possible to arrange repatriation.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:59 pm

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
Truly bypassing large hubs is not going to be something that happens regardless of what plane is built. There are way too many moving parts that will always work against that.

1. If the aim is to connect a smaller airport, that does not have enough demand to sustain competition, then prices from the smaller airport will always be high due to a lack of competition.
2. Airlines still try to justify flying non stop by charging higher fares than a connecting flight because people that travel for business prefer that. Price sensitive consumers will always take that connecting flight, and most likely through a busy hub airport that offers lots of competition.
3. Whichever way you want to look at it, consumer prefer flying bigger planes over narrow bodies when it comes to longer haul flights. They will similarly fly them to larger hubs that have slot constraints because these airports have the demand to sustain those bigger jets.

There is a jet for every application, and while a bigger jet may not make sense for an airline on one route, you will see VLA's flying similar length routes or even shorter for other airlines. Emirates as is, will be OK once things start picking up.

I think your post is well considered but seems to be taking an all or nothing approach.

I don't think anyone is arguing hubs will disappear. As I wrote above the argument was about where the growth would happen, not if hubs would disappear.

1) I don't think prices from smaller airports will always be high. Smaller airports often have lower costs because space is available, labor is cheaper, and the airport is willing to keep prices low to get more growth. Airlines looking for growth look for emerging cities to place new routes. The BA 787 LON to CHS and AUS examples above show that.

2) Maybe the legacies "always" charge more for nonstop, but I've seen WN charge the same or negligibly different fares for non-stop vs 1-stop.

3) NB vs WB size to me is a non-factor except perhaps for the smallest regional jets. I think it only takes one CR1/CR2 flight for a tall person to decide to book away from them, lol. Other than that, I think the other main priorities, price and convenience, overwhelm any concern of NB vs WB for the large majority of passengers. The market is buying up A321XLRs with 4300 nm brochure range so they're voting with their money that customers will accept NBs for TATL+ flights.

David Neeleman is willing to put his money and prestige on the line to start an airline that is doing the opposite of what you suggest: point to point between smaller airports using long range narrow bodied aircraft.

Again, hubs won't disappear, but it seems to me the airlines are voting via their spending choices to buy equipment for more point-to-point and hub-to-point flying.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:18 pm

astuteman wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that Airbus bet heavily across the board.

The A320 for genuine point-to-point
The A330/A330NEO and A350 for the hub-points similar to the 787
The A380 for large hub-hub.

One of the three didn't pay off.

Fair enough, although my list would have A340-500/600 so the winner and loser columns would be more balanced.

enzo011 wrote:
Just thinking about this logically, airlines are looking to slash costs as soon as possible. So letting go of pilots and other staff is a easy way to do that, especially if you are cutting the flights you have. Now with the A380 being the A380, when capacity is slashed it will be the first to go as the demand will be better matched by the smaller aircraft in your fleet. For EK this is the 77W. So you logically expect more A380's to be sent to storage and subsequently you expect more A380 pilots to be let go to save on salaries.

If EK's fleet consisted of 779 and A359's, you would expect the majority of the 779 to be stored at this time and subsequently 779 pilots to be let go as well. The question is will demand pick up again in the next couple of years where the stored aircraft can be restored to the schedule and logically the hiring of pilots will follow that.

The trend at EK before the pandemic was to look at rightsizing the aircraft for a route by looking at aircraft that is smaller than the 77W. We can see this with the A359 order. The bad luck for your fellow colleagues that are Airbus pilots that the A359 is not on the property right now.

My guess is EK is betting that those pilots that they are letting go will not find work easily elsewhere so once demand pick up they will be able to hire them back quickly. Welcome to capitalism I suppose.

All true, yet hard to reconcile with the 60%+ by December comment that some have raised above.

On this page we have figures suggesting ~1600 pilots were let go with a large percentage current or future A380 pilots, and ~325 A380 flight crew are left. They have 110 A380 so flying 60% would be 66 frames. It should be a pretty chaotic environment if they do go forward as AAR suggests.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:31 pm

ScottB wrote:
...But it's certainly not large enough to justify an entire new aircraft program on its own.


But keep losing shirts on their back on niche WBs/VLAs programs is perfectly acceptable business model.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ScottB
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:33 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
But keep losing shirts on their back on niche WBs/VLAs programs is perfectly acceptable business model.


A380 and 747-8i were dumb. A340NG got beaten by a better product. 787 and A350 were both correct responses to the market but Boeing completely mis-executed the 787 program. Even with that it will still likely be profitable in the long term.

A new narrowbody program can be screwed up colossally as well. As I mentioned before, Bombardier's mistakes on the C-Series very nearly brought down the entire company -- only a bailout from the provincial government saved the program and that was largely to preserve manufacturing jobs.

I suspect Airbus would have been perfectly happy to continue printing money on the A320oeo rather than having to deal with the teething problems on the GTF and LEAP engines.
 
xwb777
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:31 pm

I think what AAR stated during his latest interview is just for the general public to be informed about the future plans of the airline.
A high percentage of them doesn’t know how many A380s does EK have nor the number of B777s.
Any aviation professional will not hear the news to get information about the aviation industry from tv.
The idea that i want to deliver is that we he have mentioned might not be true. Maybe its just a percentage that came to his mind while doing the interview.
 
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zeke
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:03 am

Charlie252 wrote:
The 25% is for people who can not be repatriated because of COVID etc after last day of service.

I think by Sept/Oct when all those made redundant reach their end of Service, it will be possible to arrange repatriation.


25%, plus housing and medical etc is for one month after termination or until they leave UAE.

EK has stopped flying to a lot of places.

The point I am making, terminating so many people does not bring immediate relief to the airline, they go back to full pay to termination, then 25% after termination.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:09 am

Revelation wrote:
All true, yet hard to reconcile with the 60%+ by December comment that some have raised above.

On this page we have figures suggesting ~1600 pilots were let go with a large percentage current or future A380 pilots, and ~325 A380 flight crew are left. They have 110 A380 so flying 60% would be 66 frames. It should be a pretty chaotic environment if they do go forward as AAR suggests.


I'm not sure where the 325 flight crew number has come from, perhaps that's an anticipation of future layoffs, or maybe a miscalculation. But currently about 50 - 60% of the flight deck crew remain on the fleet which is far greater than 325. The plan is currently to have all remaining 380 flight crew perform sim sessions by the end of the month. Some line pilots (non-training Captains) have already undergone this training to date.

To me, it looks like the remaining flight deck crew number matches the plan Al Redha laid out in the article yesterday. A 50 to 60% remaining flight crew, anticipating operating about 60% of the fleet by December. I imagine they'll be reviewing this plan regularly, and make further redundancies as this plan changes - that is, matching the number of flight crew to the number of airplanes they anticipate operating within about a 6 month period. Anything beyond a 6 month period and it seems that EK has justified it is cheaper to make flight deck crew redundant and rehire and retrain at a later date.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:42 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
Revelation wrote:
All true, yet hard to reconcile with the 60%+ by December comment that some have raised above.

On this page we have figures suggesting ~1600 pilots were let go with a large percentage current or future A380 pilots, and ~325 A380 flight crew are left. They have 110 A380 so flying 60% would be 66 frames. It should be a pretty chaotic environment if they do go forward as AAR suggests.


I'm not sure where the 325 flight crew number has come from, perhaps that's an anticipation of future layoffs, or maybe a miscalculation. But currently about 50 - 60% of the flight deck crew remain on the fleet which is far greater than 325. The plan is currently to have all remaining 380 flight crew perform sim sessions by the end of the month. Some line pilots (non-training Captains) have already undergone this training to date.

To me, it looks like the remaining flight deck crew number matches the plan Al Redha laid out in the article yesterday. A 50 to 60% remaining flight crew, anticipating operating about 60% of the fleet by December. I imagine they'll be reviewing this plan regularly, and make further redundancies as this plan changes - that is, matching the number of flight crew to the number of airplanes they anticipate operating within about a 6 month period. Anything beyond a 6 month period and it seems that EK has justified it is cheaper to make flight deck crew redundant and rehire and retrain at a later date.

Who are they going to hire after proving they’ll just drop you immediately in a downturn?
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:06 am

32andBelow wrote:
Who are they going to hire after proving they’ll just drop you immediately in a downturn?


I'm not trying to defend Emirates right now, rather just trying to state the facts - but I'm not sure that this downturn can be extrapolated to all future downturns. We've never seen the likes of this kind of demand shock to aviation ever. In an ordinary economic recession Emirates has proved to be fairly resilient. Dubai, and much of the rest of the GCC, was already in an economic recession before covid. During 08/09, Emirates had one of their largest hiring sprees in their history.

There are (and will be) thousands of pilots without jobs as airlines make permanent fleet cuts. Many have, and I'm sure many will, jump ship even if they're on a union callback list. The lucrative aspect of getting a job with Emirates was a chance to jump to the bigger equipment quicker than you might have at your home airline. I'm not sure that will change in the future.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:16 am

Revelation wrote:
I think your post is well considered but seems to be taking an all or nothing approach.

I don't think anyone is arguing hubs will disappear. As I wrote above the argument was about where the growth would happen, not if hubs would disappear.

1) I don't think prices from smaller airports will always be high. Smaller airports often have lower costs because space is available, labor is cheaper, and the airport is willing to keep prices low to get more growth. Airlines looking for growth look for emerging cities to place new routes. The BA 787 LON to CHS and AUS examples above show that.
There are always going to be outliers, and this is one example. British Airways though operates from one of the most slot constrained airports in the world, offering a non stop route to what are some smaller airports in the US. It has nothing to do with aircraft type because these are routes that could have been done with a smaller wide body, say the A330-200 or the A330-300/900.

Flying non stop is also often cheaper to operate because, well, you pay a one time landing and take off cost, you are not taxiing two times thus if the stage lengths are not huge, it is cheaper to operate than a connecting itinerary. That said, airlines, and businesses for that matter, do not drop prices unless they are forced to. In aviation, the trigger for this has always been competition, or the threat of competition.


Revelation wrote:
2) Maybe the legacies "always" charge more for nonstop, but I've seen WN charge the same or negligibly different fares for non-stop vs 1-stop.
They are a low cost carrier. Their entire business case is predicated on being cheaper. Plus their operating model is planes come in and go out, not the banked hub method that is higher risk, higher reward.

Revelation wrote:
3) NB vs WB size to me is a non-factor except perhaps for the smallest regional jets. I think it only takes one CR1/CR2 flight for a tall person to decide to book away from them, lol. Other than that, I think the other main priorities, price and convenience, overwhelm any concern of NB vs WB for the large majority of passengers. The market is buying up A321XLRs with 4300 nm brochure range so they're voting with their money that customers will accept NBs for TATL+ flights.
They are going to maybe fly them to smaller airports. You are unlikely to see big airlines replacing a wide body jet at Heathrow or Schipol. You are likely to see more routes coming in to say Gatwick from a smaller US airport, or headed to Orly.

If there is a direct replacement, you will see the A321LR/XLR replacing the 757, and with time, as more airports become more slot constrained, the ability to add more capacity comes from simply flying a bigger jet.

Revelation wrote:
David Neeleman is willing to put his money and prestige on the line to start an airline that is doing the opposite of what you suggest: point to point between smaller airports using long range narrow bodied aircraft.

Again, hubs won't disappear, but it seems to me the airlines are voting via their spending choices to buy equipment for more point-to-point and hub-to-point flying.
Yes, smaller airports. But this does not necessarily apply to huge airlines operating from hubs. Emirates might have demand for the A380 on a 1 hour trip, Cathay Pacific may have enough demand for a 777 on a 3/4 hour trip, Singapore Airlines will fly a 787-10 on a regional route, Turkish Airlines will fly WB's from Istanbul to LHR. The economics differ from market to market and even in the same market, airline to airline.

Plus, operating a hub system tends to make sense because you need fewer jets in what is a high capex industry, and an industry where established players especially in the US will fly smaller jets into busy airports to simply block new competitors from accessing the same.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:29 am

lightsaber wrote:
I pick India as they could be an alternative stop point for Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand to Europe.


Nobody in their right mind wants to connect through India.... Have you actually ever bee to DEL or BOM airport? These are chaotic places. I have would have an option of doing Euope-DXB-BKK or Europe DEL/BOM-BKK (just as an example), I would always take EK, even if AI would be significantly cheaper. Imagine a missed connection in India and trying to sort it out vs. the same happening in DXB.
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:57 am

oschkosch wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I pick India as they could be an alternative stop point for Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, and New Zealand to Europe.


Nobody in their right mind wants to connect through India.... Have you actually ever bee to DEL or BOM airport? These are chaotic places. I have would have an option of doing Euope-DXB-BKK or Europe DEL/BOM-BKK (just as an example), I would always take EK, even if AI would be significantly cheaper. Imagine a missed connection in India and trying to sort it out vs. the same happening in DXB.


Very true.

Dxb is stylish and the clean. Lots to see/do.

India, no chance. Unhgenyic and never be like the dubai airport. That way ek is successful and the air Indian is a financial jokes.

Mush rather miss ek flight to be stuck in Dubai than be at risk in India with air india.

No idea why lightabber so obsessed with India. Whole concept of BRIC nations is in ruins.
 
xwb777
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:01 pm

According to the following article, Sir Tim Clark has stated that Emirates will take delivery of all remaning A380s on order, three by year end and five next year.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... into-2022/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:21 pm

xwb777 wrote:
According to the following article, Sir Tim Clark has stated that Emirates will take delivery of all remaning A380s on order, three by year end and five next year.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... into-2022/

He doesn't actually say that.

Here's how the quote reads:

Clark said Emirates is contracted with Airbus to take three A380 superjumbo jets by year end and an additional “four or five” next year. At real prices after standard discounts, that’s about $1.5 billion worth of airplanes Emirates is legally bound to take.

He never said he will take them, he just says contracts are in place for them.

Contracts are subject to re-negotiation so we'll see where things end up.

He also says:

He believes the coming year will be “absolute harrowing” for the business, even for an airline as successful and with such deep pockets as Emirates. He’s hoping a COVID-19 vaccine will be available by 2022 to bring back a semblance of previous industry conditions.

If we don’t start putting people on airplanes sooner rather than later, we’ll face difficulties as well,” he said. “We have to hold our nerve, keep ourselves financially positive with the help of the government, and tough it out until then.”

It suggests to me he'd be glad to get out of the contracts if he can negotiate a way out of them.

The article also says "He said he’s likely to finally take his leave next month and return to the U.K., while remaining an adviser to Emirates chief Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum." so we'll see if he's in the decision loop going forward.
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32andBelow
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:42 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Who are they going to hire after proving they’ll just drop you immediately in a downturn?


I'm not trying to defend Emirates right now, rather just trying to state the facts - but I'm not sure that this downturn can be extrapolated to all future downturns. We've never seen the likes of this kind of demand shock to aviation ever. In an ordinary economic recession Emirates has proved to be fairly resilient. Dubai, and much of the rest of the GCC, was already in an economic recession before covid. During 08/09, Emirates had one of their largest hiring sprees in their history.

There are (and will be) thousands of pilots without jobs as airlines make permanent fleet cuts. Many have, and I'm sure many will, jump ship even if they're on a union callback list. The lucrative aspect of getting a job with Emirates was a chance to jump to the bigger equipment quicker than you might have at your home airline. I'm not sure that will change in the future.

The ME3 is different when you move your life half way around the world to fulfill a contract. Emirates should fulfill their portion
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:29 pm

I wonder if Emirates could actually take advantage of this situation and keep the A380 fleet going for longer. New builds will not be available and lease rates will be almost nothing, so instead of retiring them at 12 they could keep flying them for another 10 years or so and cannibalize some of the unused ones.
 
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MillwallSean
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:14 am

32andBelow wrote:
The ME3 is different when you move your life half way around the world to fulfill a contract. Emirates should fulfill their portion


I am struggling with this, EK should fulfil their portion. Cant say that I have much good to say about EK but i am at a loss as to why they are singled out, they are presently trying to survive and their flight schedule is 10% of what it used to be. Its pretty clear that in such a market there will be redundancies and restructuring. In the western world such redundancies follows transparent set parameters agreed on in advance while in expatistan it is management who has sole power to, in any way they so wish, decide who that is made redundant. That cant come as a surprise to anyone (if it is, I really think those employees haven't done their homework).

Leaving for 'expatistan' always sees a risk element to the contract. There is a trade off and its wise to be aware of it before one signs any employment contract in a different jurisdiction to ones own. Going overseas means change, there is no employment relations, there is no employment legislation to speak of but there is higher pay and greater responsibility and in the right places a good lifestyle. When a downturn comes (and it always does) its not fair. Its not about being the best employee, its about being the one that for some reason management want to keep or like. Welcome to the harsh world of being an expat. we are paid more and better but we need to accept that there is less employment security, generally a complete lack of transparency and fairness. If one cant accept that conundrum - better career/pay but much worse employment security - being an expat is not the right choice.

Remember the SE Asian carriers, they were unbeatable in the 1990ies. Then the Asian financial crisis of 1998 hit and all changed. I feel we will see the same thing with EK, it will be there and it will maintain its strengths, but its day as a world disruptor is over. They are an incumbent now and will be chased instead of chasing.

---------------------------

I don't agree with India as a lost cause. Air India might be, but India in itself is finally starting to see a good enough infrastructure to be able to, should they go for it, compete. As airports and systems in India slowly improve, the market becomes more and more resilient. Will India ever serve as a huge connecting hub, well, to do so they need to build a brand new spanking huge airport and I don't see that soon.
However what their carriers will do is slowly but steadily eat marketshare currently held by other Asian airlines, especially the ME ones. Indian lowcost carriers will chip away at the bottom end / VFR market and affect overall pricing negatively as well as opening more and more direct routes out of India. Step by step Indian carriers will increase their marketshare on routes from India. The A321 of Indigo for example has the potential to become a real disruptor to the Middle Eastern carriers serving the Indian market.
When India wants, when politics don't interfere to much (worried what Spicejets newfound influence will do to the market) and have a strong enough business owner, they can deliver. Something Indigo has shown.
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:01 am

MillwallSean wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The ME3 is different when you move your life half way around the world to fulfill a contract. Emirates should fulfill their portion


I am struggling with this, EK should fulfil their portion. Cant say that I have much good to say about EK but i am at a loss as to why they are singled out, they are presently trying to survive and their flight schedule is 10% of what it used to be. Its pretty clear that in such a market there will be redundancies and restructuring. In the western world such redundancies follows transparent set parameters agreed on in advance while in expatistan it is management who has sole power to, in any way they so wish, decide who that is made redundant. That cant come as a surprise to anyone (if it is, I really think those employees haven't done their homework).

Leaving for 'expatistan' always sees a risk element to the contract. There is a trade off and its wise to be aware of it before one signs any employment contract in a different jurisdiction to ones own. Going overseas means change, there is no employment relations, there is no employment legislation to speak of but there is higher pay and greater responsibility and in the right places a good lifestyle. When a downturn comes (and it always does) its not fair. Its not about being the best employee, its about being the one that for some reason management want to keep or like. Welcome to the harsh world of being an expat. we are paid more and better but we need to accept that there is less employment security, generally a complete lack of transparency and fairness. If one cant accept that conundrum - better career/pay but much worse employment security - being an expat is not the right choice.

Remember the SE Asian carriers, they were unbeatable in the 1990ies. Then the Asian financial crisis of 1998 hit and all changed. I feel we will see the same thing with EK, it will be there and it will maintain its strengths, but its day as a world disruptor is over. They are an incumbent now and will be chased instead of chasing.

---------------------------

I don't agree with India as a lost cause. Air India might be, but India in itself is finally starting to see a good enough infrastructure to be able to, should they go for it, compete. As airports and systems in India slowly improve, the market becomes more and more resilient. Will India ever serve as a huge connecting hub, well, to do so they need to build a brand new spanking huge airport and I don't see that soon.
However what their carriers will do is slowly but steadily eat marketshare currently held by other Asian airlines, especially the ME ones. Indian lowcost carriers will chip away at the bottom end / VFR market and affect overall pricing negatively as well as opening more and more direct routes out of India. Step by step Indian carriers will increase their marketshare on routes from India. The A321 of Indigo for example has the potential to become a real disruptor to the Middle Eastern carriers serving the Indian market.
When India wants, when politics don't interfere to much (worried what Spicejets newfound influence will do to the market) and have a strong enough business owner, they can deliver. Something Indigo has shown.

India, if they build large enough hubs with good transit could be a competitor. But to connect to as many cities as possible, there must be connecting traffic. I've read Dubai had 30% O&D traffic. There amazing route network was built on connecting anywhere to almost anywhere. The 30% fuel taxes if India make that difficult to be competitive. They do well domestic, but for long haul that is a challenge.

For Emirates, I worry more what IST will do to the competition. Going from 2 crossed runways (1.5 runways effective capacity, at best) to 3 parallel runways opens up the opportunities.

I also think Ethiopian is an interesting, if imperfectly run, competitor. If their home airport is expanded or replaced, they will do well too.

In my opinion, the biggest challenge to the A388s returning us P2P. While PER-LHR was unusual and about half connecting traffic (mostly from MEL, but other Southern Australia), the way to defeat the ME3 is bypass. The A321xLR, hypothetical -9 MAX ER, 787, and A350 all present options for that bypass.

Heck Indigo was flying to IST with just A321NEO.

Lightsaber
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A330Inter
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:46 am

MillwallSean wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The ME3 is different when you move your life half way around the world to fulfill a contract. Emirates should fulfill their portion


I am struggling with this, EK should fulfil their portion. Cant say that I have much good to say about EK but i am at a loss as to why they are singled out, they are presently trying to survive and their flight schedule is 10% of what it used to be. Its pretty clear that in such a market there will be redundancies and restructuring. In the western world such redundancies follows transparent set parameters agreed on in advance while in expatistan it is management who has sole power to, in any way they so wish, decide who that is made redundant. That cant come as a surprise to anyone (if it is, I really think those employees haven't done their homework).

Leaving for 'expatistan' always sees a risk element to the contract. There is a trade off and its wise to be aware of it before one signs any employment contract in a different jurisdiction to ones own. Going overseas means change, there is no employment relations, there is no employment legislation to speak of but there is higher pay and greater responsibility and in the right places a good lifestyle. When a downturn comes (and it always does) its not fair. Its not about being the best employee, its about being the one that for some reason management want to keep or like. Welcome to the harsh world of being an expat. we are paid more and better but we need to accept that there is less employment security, generally a complete lack of transparency and fairness. If one cant accept that conundrum - better career/pay but much worse employment security - being an expat is not the right choice.

Remember the SE Asian carriers, they were unbeatable in the 1990ies. Then the Asian financial crisis of 1998 hit and all changed. I feel we will see the same thing with EK, it will be there and it will maintain its strengths, but its day as a world disruptor is over. They are an incumbent now and will be chased instead of chasing.


Completely agree with your view, nobody is forced to be an expat' and work for ME3 (or any other international business)
When moving to a country with such a different culture and history, one should assess the potential risks that come with the benefits. Conditions in the UAE are usually pretty good for western expats:
- safe environment to live in
- high salary
- exposure to high responsibilities much quicker than in your home country
- very well connected to the rest of the world
The money doesn't come for free and this lifestyle doesn't suit everyone either.
In general with high risks come greater reward but if you are not in a position to take that risk then definitely should not move there.
I'm not worried for Emirates about finding people to work for them, even highly qualified too.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:47 am

A330Inter wrote:
Conditions in the UAE are usually pretty good for western expats:
- safe environment to live in
- high salary
- exposure to high responsibilities much quicker than in your home country
- very well connected to the rest of the world
The money doesn't come for free and this lifestyle doesn't suit everyone either.
In general with high risks come greater reward but if you are not in a position to take that risk then definitely should not move there.
I'm not worried for Emirates about finding people to work for them, even highly qualified too.


That explanation was a good sidebar at roadshows in pre-COVID, but now with less than 50% basic pay without any allowances, debt to their eyeballs, UAE ready to throw the rule book, forget about comfort or lifestyle, it is about survival to many young people who never faced anything like this in their lifetime. Would UAE show them an easy way out or strictly prosecute for every $ they owe.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
According to the following article, Sir Tim Clark has stated that Emirates will take delivery of all remaning A380s on order, three by year end and five next year.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... into-2022/

He doesn't actually say that.

Here's how the quote reads:

Clark said Emirates is contracted with Airbus to take three A380 superjumbo jets by year end and an additional “four or five” next year. At real prices after standard discounts, that’s about $1.5 billion worth of airplanes Emirates is legally bound to take.

He never said he will take them, he just says contracts are in place for them.

Contracts are subject to re-negotiation so we'll see where things end up.

He also says:

He believes the coming year will be “absolute harrowing” for the business, even for an airline as successful and with such deep pockets as Emirates. He’s hoping a COVID-19 vaccine will be available by 2022 to bring back a semblance of previous industry conditions.

If we don’t start putting people on airplanes sooner rather than later, we’ll face difficulties as well,” he said. “We have to hold our nerve, keep ourselves financially positive with the help of the government, and tough it out until then.”

It suggests to me he'd be glad to get out of the contracts if he can negotiate a way out of them.

The article also says "He said he’s likely to finally take his leave next month and return to the U.K., while remaining an adviser to Emirates chief Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum." so we'll see if he's in the decision loop going forward.



I am sure they would like to get out of a lot of contracts they have. If you choose to read the article that way then they have a contract with Boeing on the 777X. It doesn't mean they will take them only that there are contracts in place for them. :stirthepot:
 
A330Inter
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
A330Inter wrote:
Conditions in the UAE are usually pretty good for western expats:
- safe environment to live in
- high salary
- exposure to high responsibilities much quicker than in your home country
- very well connected to the rest of the world
The money doesn't come for free and this lifestyle doesn't suit everyone either.
In general with high risks come greater reward but if you are not in a position to take that risk then definitely should not move there.
I'm not worried for Emirates about finding people to work for them, even highly qualified too.


That explanation was a good sidebar at roadshows in pre-COVID, but now with less than 50% basic pay without any allowances, debt to their eyeballs, UAE ready to throw the rule book, forget about comfort or lifestyle, it is about survival to many young people who never faced anything like this in their lifetime. Would UAE show them an easy way out or strictly prosecute for every $ they owe.


Would you be given a free pass on your debt if it was your home country? Probably not
From what I understood, 50% pay cut was for mid-senior levels, junior profiles pay reduction was more in the range of 25% (for airlines).
Nevertheless, I believe for most Expat in the region the point is to save on money, not to build debt, but for the unfortunate I'm sure we will see another rush of one-way departures as the 2008 crisis leaving their cars in airport's parking lots....
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
A330Inter wrote:
Conditions in the UAE are usually pretty good for western expats:
- safe environment to live in
- high salary
- exposure to high responsibilities much quicker than in your home country
- very well connected to the rest of the world
The money doesn't come for free and this lifestyle doesn't suit everyone either.
In general with high risks come greater reward but if you are not in a position to take that risk then definitely should not move there.
I'm not worried for Emirates about finding people to work for them, even highly qualified too.


That explanation was a good sidebar at roadshows in pre-COVID, but now with less than 50% basic pay without any allowances, debt to their eyeballs, UAE ready to throw the rule book, forget about comfort or lifestyle, it is about survival to many young people who never faced anything like this in their lifetime. Would UAE show them an easy way out or strictly prosecute for every $ they owe.

I think he did cover it well.

He said high risk, and yes, pandemics are an element of high risk.

I guess I learned being from a family of immigrants whose parents lived as refugees during and after WWII that life can put you into some really difficult situations no matter what your age is.

The reward side is being a flight crew member on a widebody aircraft a good ten to fifteen years ahead of your peers and locking in that earning power so much earlier. The risk side involved signing a training bond that most people can't pay off. You place your bets, you take your chances. I did a similar thing at a young age, leaving a career track position at IBM to become an independent contractor. Worst case for these young pilots is they do what it takes to get out of the sandpit and try to pay it off but if they fall short default on the bond and deal with a bad credit history.

enzo011 wrote:
I am sure they would like to get out of a lot of contracts they have. If you choose to read the article that way then they have a contract with Boeing on the 777X. It doesn't mean they will take them only that there are contracts in place for them. :stirthepot:


There's not too many different ways to read:

He believes the coming year will be “absolute harrowing” for the business, even for an airline as successful and with such deep pockets as Emirates.

No doubt they'd like to get out of 777x contracts and renegotiate if/when circumstances are better. As above, pretty much every airplane contract is at risk these days.

And again, my point is the quote did not say what you suggested it said. It just points out there is a contract, nothing more.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
A330Inter wrote:
Conditions in the UAE are usually pretty good for western expats:
- safe environment to live in
- high salary
- exposure to high responsibilities much quicker than in your home country
- very well connected to the rest of the world
The money doesn't come for free and this lifestyle doesn't suit everyone either.
In general with high risks come greater reward but if you are not in a position to take that risk then definitely should not move there.
I'm not worried for Emirates about finding people to work for them, even highly qualified too.


That explanation was a good sidebar at roadshows in pre-COVID, but now with less than 50% basic pay without any allowances, debt to their eyeballs, UAE ready to throw the rule book, forget about comfort or lifestyle, it is about survival to many young people who never faced anything like this in their lifetime. Would UAE show them an easy way out or strictly prosecute for every $ they owe.

I think he did cover it well.

He said high risk, and yes, pandemics are an element of high risk.


Yes he did, with a conclusion that Emirates will do just fine and the usual who cares about the expats, crew or employees.

Unlike other places Dubai and its promoted lifestyle, the investment schemes(diplomatic substitute) and the quirks in employee benefits lure people into a debt trap.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ScottB
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:23 pm

A330Inter wrote:
Would you be given a free pass on your debt if it was your home country? Probably not
From what I understood, 50% pay cut was for mid-senior levels, junior profiles pay reduction was more in the range of 25% (for airlines).
Nevertheless, I believe for most Expat in the region the point is to save on money, not to build debt, but for the unfortunate I'm sure we will see another rush of one-way departures as the 2008 crisis leaving their cars in airport's parking lots....


No, but in most countries you also wouldn't face the prospect of debtors' prison. Moreover, even if you'd like to pay off the debt, you're forbidden from leaving the country and have no prospects for obtaining employment there which would generate enough income to pay off those debts. What reasonable person wouldn't try to flee a no-win situation like that?
 
A330Inter
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:46 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Revelation wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

That explanation was a good sidebar at roadshows in pre-COVID, but now with less than 50% basic pay without any allowances, debt to their eyeballs, UAE ready to throw the rule book, forget about comfort or lifestyle, it is about survival to many young people who never faced anything like this in their lifetime. Would UAE show them an easy way out or strictly prosecute for every $ they owe.

I think he did cover it well.

He said high risk, and yes, pandemics are an element of high risk.


Yes he did, with a conclusion that Emirates will do just fine and the usual who cares about the expats, crew or employees.

Unlike other places Dubai and its promoted lifestyle, the investment schemes(diplomatic substitute) and the quirks in employee benefits lure people into a debt trap.


No no, I said Emirates will do fine in terms of being able to attract skilled resources and I stand by my comment. I never said that they don't care about their crews or employees.

Maybe to put things into perspective, I lived in Dubai for close to 10 years, never have I felt either lured or left out. I signed my contract on my own will and every bullet point of this contract has been respected, nothing more, nothing less. Their conditions are very generous in terms of salary and benefits, but it is also very clear that there is no social security in case things go south. So again it is up to you to perform your own risk assessment before moving there, but you can't turn around and request for the rules to be changed.

As I am not a crew and happy to hear if things are different on the flying side in terms of being lured in a debt trap. If you are referring to things outside of the airline environment I am not sure we can consider Emirates or any other airline liable for what their employees decide to do with their income, but this is just my view
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:38 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Unlike other places Dubai and its promoted lifestyle, the investment schemes(diplomatic substitute) and the quirks in employee benefits lure people into a debt trap.

I guess the trick then is to do your research and figure out where those "other places" you speak of are.

A330Inter wrote:
No no, I said Emirates will do fine in terms of being able to attract skilled resources and I stand by my comment. I never said that they don't care about their crews or employees.

Maybe to put things into perspective, I lived in Dubai for close to 10 years, never have I felt either lured or left out. I signed my contract on my own will and every bullet point of this contract has been respected, nothing more, nothing less. Their conditions are very generous in terms of salary and benefits, but it is also very clear that there is no social security in case things go south. So again it is up to you to perform your own risk assessment before moving there, but you can't turn around and request for the rules to be changed.

As I am not a crew and happy to hear if things are different on the flying side in terms of being lured in a debt trap. If you are referring to things outside of the airline environment I am not sure we can consider Emirates or any other airline liable for what their employees decide to do with their income, but this is just my view

I agree. I've watched a few videos and read a few articles and I think it's not very hard to get a good idea of what the deal EK puts onto the table is. There are so many resources for newbies to figure this stuff out. If they don't take advantage of that while making a major life decision, it's on them.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8284
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:41 am

A330Inter wrote:
...
As I am not a crew and happy to hear if things are different on the flying side in terms of being lured in a debt trap. If you are referring to things outside of the airline environment I am not sure we can consider Emirates or any other airline liable for what their employees decide to do with their income, but this is just my view


I must be reading the gossip posted by the disgruntled crew on those rumor sites. Glad we have this forum to fact-check.

BTW, it is a state-owned airline owned by city-state with 1/3 GDP from airline and proudly receives dividends from the airline. Yes, everything and everyone in the city-state does is to benefit the airline.
All posts are just opinions.
 
xwb777
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:30 pm

Emirates is offering unpaid leave till November to avoid further layoffs.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2020 ... undancies/
 
chonetsao
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:16 pm

Following the new requirement of Covid-19 PCR test within 96 hours of arriving of transiting in UAE, it is for sure Emirates would suffer even further in passenger loads. I can see how Emirates would end up retire 40% of their A380 by end of 2020. The recovery is not anywhere in sight.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:15 am

zeke wrote:

Even after being terminated don’t they go into 25% basic pay, free health care and accommodation until they leave the country ?

That’s the UAE sponsorship visa conditions isn’t it ?.


I worked in a rich neighbouring emirate, and some time ago (before corona) when my contract was summarily terminated, they didn't even give me the agreed notice period. They terminated my visa and I had 8 days to sell up and leave otherwise face arrest. They play their own game there and one should realise they have no conscience with a lot of stuff. Play with fire, get burned. It's the ME all over. No ethics.
 
Western727
Posts: 1767
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:18 pm

Having had my family's trip to DXB (nonstop from IAH on a 380) postponed from mid-March, literally days prior to the trip, to 20-29 November I find myself doubting that we'll be able to visit my expat sister and her family who live in AUH. The way things look, it looks more and more likely that we'll have to postpone again to spring break in March 2021...not to mention lamenting the fact that my likely only chance of flying on the 380 may evaporate.

Love to entertain an educated guess from you folks on that.

KingOrGod wrote:
zeke wrote:

Even after being terminated don’t they go into 25% basic pay, free health care and accommodation until they leave the country ?

That’s the UAE sponsorship visa conditions isn’t it ?.


I worked in a rich neighbouring emirate, and some time ago (before corona) when my contract was summarily terminated, they didn't even give me the agreed notice period. They terminated my visa and I had 8 days to sell up and leave otherwise face arrest. They play their own game there and one should realise they have no conscience with a lot of stuff. Play with fire, get burned. It's the ME all over. No ethics.


My brother-in-law got a high-paying administrative job at the Barakah Nuclear Power Plant and has since gotten reorganized to the utility's HQ in AUH. I do wonder what might happen to him should the utility decide to terminate his contract. 8 days is quite a short notice to move a family of 6.

EDIT: clarification.
Jack @ AUS
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