Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8
 
kavok
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 8:03 pm

STT757 wrote:
divemaster08 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what went wrong since their last Chapter 11 filing? UA and DL seem to have found their way to profitability and stability while AA hasn't.


I cant remember the exact dates, but UA and DL filed for CH11 a few years before AA did which may of helped them have better profits during a period that AA was in CH11 and recovering. Also I dont know if the US AA merger was exactly as easy as the UA CO and DL NW mergers. US AA seems to be still merging stuff out with unions and other areas.


Something else that has been discussed on here over the years is whether AA needed to slim down after their merger with US. DL closed two hubs, CVG and MEM, after their merger with NWA. UA closed CLE. Both airlines also reorganized their fleets. I feel that since the merger AA, while performing well, was too bloated and needed to slim down. One of the areas they took on debt was their fleet rejuvenation, they had a ton of older aircraft like the MD-80s. They announced a huge deal with Airbus, whom they were on the outs with after AA 587, and Boeing to renew their fleet.

They should of took advantage of the merger with US to trim down and use the excess capacity created to replace older aircraft. Not to pick on Phoenix, but perhaps closing the PHX hub and redeploying those freed up aircraft to DFW and ORD to replace their MD-80s would have been more prudent. Same thing on the AA side at JFK, perhaps they held on too long for prestige when they should have been redeploying those long haul aircraft to PHL, ORD, MIA etc.. and allow the consolidation to push out older long haul aircraft.


AA has suffered from a poor network of hub locations that dont really compliment each other (geographically speaking). And in saying that, I don’t mean the individual markets themselves are bad, but just that as a collection they don’t build a cohesive network for fostering a good airline network nationally. It’s kind of like a basketball team that has 3 all-star guards, a few more good guards on the bench, but no big-men to play down low.

They have tried their best to make PHL as a TATL hub, but the geography isn’t great. They have tried to make PHX work as a Mountain West hub, but again the geography isn’t great. They tried recently to partner with AS to develop some PacNW inroads, but who knows if that will work or not. They have always been second fiddle to UA at ORD, and a solid #3 in the Midwest. And even though they have the biggest market share in LAX, Los Angeles is too big a market for anyone to dominate. DFW works well, CLT works well for Northeast to Southeast, and MIA works well for Latin American connections. But after that, AA struggles.

AA basically has had the weakest hub collection of the US3 in terms of geographical balance. To fix that would have required some bold moves and burning through a ton of cash (like DL in SEA). For better or worse, AA always tried to make what they had work... and I think the lack of a bolder long term vision has hurt them.

As has been said often: DL has a Texas hole, UA has a Southeastern hole, and AA has... a lot of holes.
Last edited by kavok on Mon May 18, 2020 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
aaway
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 8:03 pm

STT757 wrote:
Something else that has been discussed on here over the years is whether AA needed to slim down after their merger with US. DL closed two hubs, CVG and MEM, after their merger with NWA. UA closed CLE. Both airlines also reorganized their fleets. I feel that since the merger AA, while performing well, was too bloated and needed to slim down. One of the areas they took on debt was their fleet rejuvenation, they had a ton of older aircraft like the MD-80s. They announced a huge deal with Airbus, whom they were on the outs with after AA 587, and Boeing to renew their fleet.

They should of took advantage of the merger with US to trim down and use the excess capacity created to replace older aircraft. Not to pick on Phoenix, but perhaps closing the PHX hub and redeploying those freed up aircraft to DFW and ORD to replace their MD-80s would have been more prudent. Same thing on the AA side at JFK, perhaps they held on too long for prestige when they should have been redeploying those long haul aircraft to PHL, ORD, MIA etc.. and allow the consolidation to push out older long haul aircraft.


In grudging fairness to the current management at AA, the final L-AA management placed the aircraft order. I think much of the financial calculus that went into the order was lost with the merger as a result of the wage deals crafted by the US management in order to win over AA's unions.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
ehaase
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:06 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 8:32 pm

Would American be in better condition had it ordered fewer new aircraft back in 2011 (in addition to ridding itself of a hub or two)?
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2441
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 8:48 pm

If AA tried and failed to get approval for Chapter 11 what be their next step (other than Chapter 7)?
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 8:49 pm

EMB170 wrote:

(1) If AA files for Chapter 11, and re-emerges, what incentive is there for DL and UA not do the same thing? (Without bringing politics into this argument, is this what is meant by corporations abusing bankruptcy?) Would AA have a 'damaged credit rating' that would prevent them from being able to secure capital in the future?


There's $21 Billion in incentives for DL and UA not to file for bankruptcy. That's their current market capitalization, combined. All of that gets wiped out during bankruptcy.

As a comparison, JC Penney, which just filed for Chapter 11, has a market cap in the magnitude of $50 Million dollars, less than 1% of the market cap of either DL or UA.

I don't see a rush for the bankruptcy court by DL or UA if and when AA files.
 
DDR
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 9:00 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
EMB170 wrote:

(1) If AA files for Chapter 11, and re-emerges, what incentive is there for DL and UA not do the same thing? (Without bringing politics into this argument, is this what is meant by corporations abusing bankruptcy?) Would AA have a 'damaged credit rating' that would prevent them from being able to secure capital in the future?


There's $21 Billion in incentives for DL and UA not to file for bankruptcy. That's their current market capitalization, combined. All of that gets wiped out during bankruptcy.

I don't see a rush for the bankruptcy court by DL or UA if and when AA files.


Agreed. DL and UA cannot file for bankruptcy protection “just because AA did.” They would have to meet all the criteria for bankruptcy protection. No matter what happens in the long run, AA, UA, and DL will be around. They are so large that they won’t be allowed to completely fail. These airlines aren’t BI, EA, PA, etc.
 
aaway
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 9:02 pm

ehaase wrote:
Would American be in better condition had it ordered fewer new aircraft back in 2011 (in addition to ridding itself of a hub or two)?


Speculative opinion (and, to be clear, not casting aspersions toward labor) - I think AA emerging from BK as a standalone would've have been better positioned at that time. That entity was, in essence, going to fund a portion of the new fleet costs with the wage savings resulting from the imposition of BK labor contracts. IIRC, the US management raised the average wages of L-AA union represented employees 15%-20% above BK imposed contracts. And that did not account for the subsequent wage increases that L-US employees received from the merged entity.

The subsequent unilateral action by Parker to increase wages again mid-contract was not helpful.

The wage scale as envisioned by a stand alone AA was, in part, part of the financial calculus as formulated by the final L-AA management. An important pillar as a going-forward concern because it was a paradigm of which the company had some control. Finance had long been part of the corporate DNA at AMR despite a maudlin CEO or two.

I'll restate in a bit more harsh terms my concurrence with a sentiment expressed above by another poster - the current management attempted to pay for the labor by cheapening the product.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
TidyCat
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:09 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 9:14 pm

If AA dramatically scales back ops in PHL, LAX, MIA, DFW, CLT & DCA; retires all the previously mentioned AC; trims employee & mgmnt head count, restructured finances, debt, leases, billing contracts, etc...how much would that help them?
Would a push with AS in SEA still be a Go to increase a PNW stronghold and help balance their network?
Would (BK) Parker stay or would he and his team definitely be “relocated?”
Who would succeed him?
 
kavok
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 9:37 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
EMB170 wrote:

(1) If AA files for Chapter 11, and re-emerges, what incentive is there for DL and UA not do the same thing? (Without bringing politics into this argument, is this what is meant by corporations abusing bankruptcy?) Would AA have a 'damaged credit rating' that would prevent them from being able to secure capital in the future?


There's $21 Billion in incentives for DL and UA not to file for bankruptcy. That's their current market capitalization, combined. All of that gets wiped out during bankruptcy.

As a comparison, JC Penney, which just filed for Chapter 11, has a market cap in the magnitude of $50 Million dollars, less than 1% of the market cap of either DL or UA.

I don't see a rush for the bankruptcy court by DL or UA if and when AA files.


Agreed in the short term, but if AA does go through Chpt 11, than longer term DL/UA bankruptcy becomes a more likely possibility. If AA is allowed to shed a bunch of debt on plane leases, purchases, and other sunk costs that no longer make sense, coupled with not having to pay those costs associated with lay-offs for a significant percentage of the workforce, than longer term the “new AA” is going to be in a much better competitive position compared to DL and UA who still have those obligations.
 
catiii
Posts: 3584
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 9:38 pm

Lostmoon744 wrote:
catiii wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:

Yes, he is probably right, but statements like that can also start a poisonous downward spiral on their own.
Just like when an airline CEO publicly speculates about the possible demise of a competing airline.

One should be very careful about making such statements.


So you guys think AA is going to liquidate and cease operations? Because he was asked if he thought a major US carrier would "go out of business."



I don't think they're filing for Ch. 7 to liquidate. I believe it's a Ch. 11 filing.


No I agree, but the poster said Boeing's CEO was going to be proven correct, and I was noting what Calhoun ACTUALLY said.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 10:42 pm

TidyCat wrote:
If AA dramatically scales back ops in PHL, LAX, MIA, DFW, CLT & DCA; retires all the previously mentioned AC; trims employee & mgmnt head count, restructured finances, debt, leases, billing contracts, etc...how much would that help them?
Would a push with AS in SEA still be a Go to increase a PNW stronghold and help balance their network?
Would (BK) Parker stay or would he and his team definitely be “relocated?”
Who would succeed him?


AA does not need all those hubs. Demand is not going to recover for years, business travel May never be the same as people realize Virtual meetings are just as good and much cheaper, and many industries can let people work from home. There is no need to travel to an office so someone can micromanaged you. They would be smart to use bankruptcy and get rid of non core hubs like PHX, LAX, and possibly ORD. UA and Delta will have to many hubs too for the amount of traffic.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3080
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 11:03 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
TidyCat wrote:
If AA dramatically scales back ops in PHL, LAX, MIA, DFW, CLT & DCA; retires all the previously mentioned AC; trims employee & mgmnt head count, restructured finances, debt, leases, billing contracts, etc...how much would that help them?
Would a push with AS in SEA still be a Go to increase a PNW stronghold and help balance their network?
Would (BK) Parker stay or would he and his team definitely be “relocated?”
Who would succeed him?


AA does not need all those hubs. Demand is not going to recover for years, business travel May never be the same as people realize Virtual meetings are just as good and much cheaper, and many industries can let people work from home. There is no need to travel to an office so someone can micromanaged you. They would be smart to use bankruptcy and get rid of non core hubs like PHX, LAX, and possibly ORD. UA and Delta will have to many hubs too for the amount of traffic.

Let's not completely catastrophize the situation. What we have here is a temporary shut down to allow for testing capacity (the biggest issue) and hospital logistics to cover the new issue that with each week is looking more and more like a typical respiratory virus with a longer course of treatment required. We've already had virtual business meetings available for years and we've already seen a reduction in travel as a result. Virtual work still can be less productive given an alternative--and working from home is no picnic. One can still be microamanaged virtually and employers could still monitor screen and mouse activity on a computer that they supply. Virtual meetings have their own issues as the human interpersonal element is removed. It increases communication barriers due to several technical difficulties -- as part of my job I regularly have to testify in court, and moving to virtual has made that a royal PITA. And a lot of companies have years of overhead committed that they aren't going to just give up on -- people will be going back to the office eventually once testing/treatment/vaccine initiatives have been put into place that make COVID-19 simply a new chapter in medical treatment. Look at HIV -- it didn't change the venue, it changed a logistic of the venue.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 11:13 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
I hope the first thing that happens post-bankruptcy is the board puts DUI Dougie out on his ass!


Please I hope so. If he didn’t borrow money to do stock buybacks, AA might have had a fighting chance of avoiding Chapter 11. Sadly, he’s made his hundreds of millions, so he’s set for life. The 130,000 employees of mainline and the wholly-owned Eagle divisions will be the ones who will lose out.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 11:32 pm

Investors shouldn't bet on anything at this point.. We have no idea which carrier(s) will emerge the strongest out of this. You can pretty much throw debt out the window in these times (you can almost throw it out in good, stable times, and both UA and DL also have high true debt loads). What will matter going forward is who can turn cash-flow positive the quickest and strongest. There's going to be opportunities on both end of the crisis. The first opportunity is now in who can lose the least. The other opportunity is when demand returns. Those that get it right will gain, and that could be anybody. Whoever was making money last year isn't automatically going to tell us who makes money in 2021 or beyond. I see AA's opportunity as having the youngest, simplest, and most efficient fleet as of today. They won't be facing the level of fleet retirements and training expenses of, say, DL. If demand comes back quickly, AA is in position to deliver the capacity without needing a large amount of new airplane deliveries to do it. Will it play out this way? Who knows for certain, but it very well could. I just find it funny that people think we can pick winners and losers already when there's far more unknowns that knowns.

Blerg wrote:
So what went wrong since their last Chapter 11 filing? UA and DL seem to have found their way to profitability and stability while AA hasn't.


Stable multi-billion dollar annual profits doesn't qualify? Nothing went "wrong". AA's employee costs are higher than the competition, but people are failing to see the long-game that AA was playing by investing back into the business (in the form of airplanes) when the times were good. 2020 was when we were likely going to see AA's financial results improve for the long-run.

Rdh3e wrote:
AA borrowed money to perform share buy-backs and here we are.

777Mech wrote:
Borrowing money to do stock buy backs, etc

NYCAAer wrote:
If he didn’t borrow money to do stock buybacks, AA might have had a fighting chance of avoiding Chapter 11.


This statement is highly misleading at the very best. AA didn't fund their buybacks with debt. They were making large profits, and they were paying back the owners as every company should look to do. According to this belief, we should say that all the major carriers funded their buybacks with debt. So, let's say it. DL funded their buybacks with debt. UA funded the buybacks with debt. Throw WN in there too. Fair is fair.

777Mech wrote:
Shiny plane syndrome.


It's a faulty conclusion. One of the biggest myths on this site is that spending money on new planes somehow automatically costs a company more money. In fact, the shiny new jet syndrome actually may have improved AA's results since bankruptcy. It would take a deeper analysis to find out because there's so many factors at play. And the airlines that weren't refreshing their fleets at a faster rate before 2020 may soon wish they had. We shall see.

What we do know however is AA has a higher cost structure in the employee sector. That we know is dragging them down. It's ironic though since employing more people should be looked at as a good thing for the industry, but of course it isn't when it doesn't fit the playbook.
 
Pentaprism
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:12 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Mon May 18, 2020 11:50 pm

Curiousflyer wrote:
Indeed AA seems to be the most in debt in the US aviation industry, and it will be difficult to just shed assets. If they shed assets, it is not much better than a bankruptcy as they would have to reduce service, lay staff off, etc. And then they will have a hard time finding lenders for upcoming financing needs. They might find a way to survive, Qantas and BA might decide AA is too valuable a partner to let them go down, but there is a good chance they could go in Chapter 11 or even completely fold.


I really don't think Qantas is likely to help AA very much. Firstly they are a much smaller Operation. Secondly even though their overall position is reasonably secure, and their only Australian Competitor is on life support, their short term outlook for at least the rest of 2020 is miserable and they are currently losing money hand over fist. They will have very few resources available to save AA any time soon. They may well need Government assistance to survive themselves.

Thirdly DL has shown to be flexible with alliances, VA Mark II will probably have little to offer them as a Partner so I would expect DL and QF to quickly come to an arrangement to share Passengers on each others Networks if AA disappear.

For similar reasons I would say it is unlikely BA will be able to help AA very much.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 645
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:02 am

lowfareair wrote:
Revelation wrote:
catiii wrote:
How? Debt restructuring isn't "out of business," which is what he said.

Actually the term used is "reorganization" ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_1 ... tates_Code ) so what emerges from BK is a new business that just happens to have the same name as the old one. Surely the creditors and share holders who get wiped out won't feel it's the same business.


Incorrect. What emerges from BK is a business that has renegotiated/written off a lot of its liabilities, potentially removed a lot of shareholder equity, and usually has an ownership structure that resembles who owned the business in the past. The airline would still retains most of the employees (often, but not always, including senior management), aircraft, headquarters, airport gate leases, etc.

If it "is a new business that just happens to have the same name as the old one" then that was a Chapter 7 bankruptcy where the name and trademark were sold to another buyer, or the trademark was abandoned and someone else picked it up. Just as a business being sold to a new owner doesn't mean it is out of business, an airline undergoing a re-org isn't out of business either.


Both are correct. Its just a few options. In a Chapter 7 bankruptcy the old company's assets can be bought, and the old company ceases to exist after all its assets are liquidated. In a Chapter 11 bankruptcy you can sell major units, including substantially the whole operating company, to a new or existing company and the old company continues to exist. For instance GM exists as Motors Liquidation Company, the current operator of Sears is Transformco, Sears Holdings continues to exist and is still in bankruptcy.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 645
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:14 am

Rdh3e wrote:
There is a huge problem with that thesis. Most of AA's debt is secured by assets. The only way for AA to get rid of that debt is to forfeit the assets. Most of it is aircraft, so all that has to happen for AA to essentially cease to exist is for competitors to offer AA's creditors more $$ for their assets than AA is willing to pay.

Creditors are also unlikely to lend any credence to a plan by current management given they drove the bus that led here with reckless borrowing. It was one thing for UA/DL to buy-back shares through earnings. AA borrowed money to perform share buy-backs and here we are.

This lack of credibility means they are open the possibility of an alternate plan being presented to the court and supported by bondholders. This could come from anywhere, including a merger or breakup offer.



EMB170 wrote:
(2) As has been stated, most of AA's assets are secured with its aircraft. Given that AA has already parked (or soon will) park the MD-80, 757, 767, EMB-190, and A330 fleets, some permanently, wouldn't the easiest course be for other entities to take up the worthwhile parts of those fleets (primarily EMB-190 and A330 aircraft, by my guess)? Would that provide enough capital to keep AA going?


The question that an AA's lenders/asset holders need to ask themselves in an AA bankruptcy is where can I put this plane where I'll make more money? Right now there aren't that many spots to place planes, almost all airlines are grounding planes, and not every plane makes sense to convert for cargo where there continues to be demand.

If I'm an AA lender who has a claim on a plane, I might want to take a haircut to my debt, to continue to get payments for that plane, instead of having that plane grounded, and then needing to make payments to store it until it could be redeployed.

This is one of the reasons that airlines continue to fly even as they're losing money: so many other companies have an interest in keeping the airline flying that they'll take lower payments now instead of a complete loss.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2692
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:55 am

Thank you Sam Chui for the same information 2 months ago...
 
dstblj52
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 1:37 am

USAirKid wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
There is a huge problem with that thesis. Most of AA's debt is secured by assets. The only way for AA to get rid of that debt is to forfeit the assets. Most of it is aircraft, so all that has to happen for AA to essentially cease to exist is for competitors to offer AA's creditors more $$ for their assets than AA is willing to pay.

Creditors are also unlikely to lend any credence to a plan by current management given they drove the bus that led here with reckless borrowing. It was one thing for UA/DL to buy-back shares through earnings. AA borrowed money to perform share buy-backs and here we are.

This lack of credibility means they are open the possibility of an alternate plan being presented to the court and supported by bondholders. This could come from anywhere, including a merger or breakup offer.



EMB170 wrote:
(2) As has been stated, most of AA's assets are secured with its aircraft. Given that AA has already parked (or soon will) park the MD-80, 757, 767, EMB-190, and A330 fleets, some permanently, wouldn't the easiest course be for other entities to take up the worthwhile parts of those fleets (primarily EMB-190 and A330 aircraft, by my guess)? Would that provide enough capital to keep AA going?


The question that an AA's lenders/asset holders need to ask themselves in an AA bankruptcy is where can I put this plane where I'll make more money? Right now there aren't that many spots to place planes, almost all airlines are grounding planes, and not every plane makes sense to convert for cargo where there continues to be demand.

If I'm an AA lender who has a claim on a plane, I might want to take a haircut to my debt, to continue to get payments for that plane, instead of having that plane grounded, and then needing to make payments to store it until it could be redeployed.

This is one of the reasons that airlines continue to fly even as they're losing money: so many other companies have an interest in keeping the airline flying that they'll take lower payments now instead of a complete loss.

The changes to bankruptcy law have given management another stick to beat against labor and creditors, which is that if we go into chapter 11 we might end up in chapter 7 and in that case, labor losses everything and creditors walk out with pennies on the dollar, so even a major cut in the amount charged to the airline might be seen as a better choice then risking that.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3583
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 1:59 am

LAXintl wrote:
Somewhat related to see how AA stacks up to peers.
This was an estimated ratio of cash, revolver, and assets they can tap vs debt. Chart created prior to Q1 results.

Image


I'm impressed at how many unencumbered assets WN has. They recently sold and leased back some of their existing B738 fleet for a cash infusion...I would surmise that this is much of their B737 fleet being now paid off, along with cash proceeds from the sale of the newer B733 fleet.

I can see DL, UA, and to a lesser extent, B6 waiting in the wings to devour pieces of the pie with inevitable drawbacks. Most of their unencumbered fleet would be older B772s, the now-parked B752s and B763s, and the early batch of B738 and some of the A320 aircraft. DFW will become a free-for-all, especially with DL (I can't see UA abandoning its fortress at IAH).
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8624
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:08 am

Can someone please explain to me why AA is in so much debt?
Didn't they shed debt back during bankruptcy 7-8 years ago?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:47 am

727LOVER wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why AA is in so much debt?
Didn't they shed debt back during bankruptcy 7-8 years ago?

They bought 460 new planes during or immediately after bankruptcy which were apparently not brilliantly priced essentially meaning they bet on relatively high oil prices but with crude sitting below 60 dollars a barrel on average during this period that investment never paid off. They also had relatively weak cash flow during this period and spent more of each dollar on stock buybacks but spent less in total, meaning they never directed the kind of cashflow delta or southwest did to pay down their debts from the mergers and 2008, throw in being overstaffed especially in upper management where they didn't cut anywhere near the same number of people that delta and united did in their respective mergers. To be honest, I think a lot of the problem was that Doug parker was always thinking about his next acquisition from America west he merged with US airways which allowed him to build an airline into the big 6, unfortunately that merger was so badly bungled that when the big round of mergers happened us airways was not in a position to take advantage of it, and end up with the last pick at the dance and even that happened much later than either of the other two mergers. While we have seen that it takes a while for a merged airline to really start firing on all cylinders honestly delta merged in 2008 at wasn't really performing well till 2015, while united merged in 2010 and wasn't really showing the benefits till 2018, while American is still in the malaise of a merger. with a management team that seems to be almost falling apart, see the Doug parker Scott Kirby split and the number of former northwest people who got fired in the delta northwest merger who ended up replacing people at American,
 
User avatar
cirrusdragoon
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:42 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:48 am

727LOVER wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why AA is in so much debt?
Didn't they shed debt back during bankruptcy 7-8 years ago?


American Airlines has spent heavily on new aircraft to modernize its fleet. It has spent enormous sums on share repurchases, more than $5 billion since the beginning of 2015. At the end of 2013, shortly after its merger with US Airways, American Airlines had $16.8 billion of debt on its balance sheet. Since then, its debt burden has steadily risen.

In addition to its debt, American Airlines also has substantial annual payments for airplanes that it leases. Financial analysts consider aircraft leases to be similar to debt in that the airline is required to make a long-term stream of payments. As a result, in evaluating an airline's debt burden, analysts typically use an adjusted figure that includes the value of its aircraft leases.

Using an industry-standard adjustment technique (seven times aircraft rent expense), the value of American Airlines' aircraft leases is $8.7 billion and American's net debt is a hefty $23.5 billion.

The current crisis could possibly be interfering with American Airlines' ability to make its scheduled debt payments.
 
TexStones
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:09 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 3:15 am

777Mech wrote:
Shiny plane syndrome.


Or, in the case of AA, eliminating shiny planes in favor of pearly white ones.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 3:49 am

TexStones wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Shiny plane syndrome.


Or, in the case of AA, eliminating shiny planes in favor of pearly white ones.


??

Dull gray ones.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 3:50 am

cirrusdragoon wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why AA is in so much debt?
Didn't they shed debt back during bankruptcy 7-8 years ago?


American Airlines has spent heavily on new aircraft to modernize its fleet. It has spent enormous sums on share repurchases, more than $5 billion since the beginning of 2015. At the end of 2013, shortly after its merger with US Airways, American Airlines had $16.8 billion of debt on its balance sheet. Since then, its debt burden has steadily risen.

In addition to its debt, American Airlines also has substantial annual payments for airplanes that it leases. Financial analysts consider aircraft leases to be similar to debt in that the airline is required to make a long-term stream of payments. As a result, in evaluating an airline's debt burden, analysts typically use an adjusted figure that includes the value of its aircraft leases.

Using an industry-standard adjustment technique (seven times aircraft rent expense), the value of American Airlines' aircraft leases is $8.7 billion and American's net debt is a hefty $23.5 billion.

The current crisis could possibly be interfering with American Airlines' ability to make its scheduled debt payments.


Thanks for explaining this.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 3:59 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I can see DL, UA, and to a lesser extent, B6 waiting in the wings to devour pieces of the pie with inevitable drawbacks. Most of their unencumbered fleet would be older B772s, the now-parked B752s and B763s, and the early batch of B738 and some of the A320 aircraft. DFW will become a free-for-all, especially with DL (I can't see UA abandoning its fortress at IAH).


What do you mean by this?

Do you believe AA will significantly shrink in size or shutdown and DL will move into DFW?
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3583
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 4:05 am

questions wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I can see DL, UA, and to a lesser extent, B6 waiting in the wings to devour pieces of the pie with inevitable drawbacks. Most of their unencumbered fleet would be older B772s, the now-parked B752s and B763s, and the early batch of B738 and some of the A320 aircraft. DFW will become a free-for-all, especially with DL (I can't see UA abandoning its fortress at IAH).


What do you mean by this?

Do you believe AA will significantly shrink in size or shutdown and DL will move into DFW?


That cannot be ruled out. For DL, it would be moving back into DFW.
 
User avatar
Lemieux
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 4:16 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
questions wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I can see DL, UA, and to a lesser extent, B6 waiting in the wings to devour pieces of the pie with inevitable drawbacks. Most of their unencumbered fleet would be older B772s, the now-parked B752s and B763s, and the early batch of B738 and some of the A320 aircraft. DFW will become a free-for-all, especially with DL (I can't see UA abandoning its fortress at IAH).


What do you mean by this?

Do you believe AA will significantly shrink in size or shutdown and DL will move into DFW?


That cannot be ruled out. For DL, it would be moving back into DFW.

Lmao yeah that's not gonna happen dude. Genuinely though, why would DFW become a free for all? I just don't see that happening. If and when it comes down to drawing back hubs, there's one that's clearly at the top of the list for AA, and it's not DFW.
Full time internet idiot. A319/20/20NEO/21/332/333, Boeing 733/734/737/738/752/753/762/763/772/773/788/789, CR2/7/9, de Havilland DHC-8, Embraer 140/145/175/190, MD82/88.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 4:49 am

rising wrote:
The airlines now, at least the Big 4, are really too big to fail. There are so many stakeholders- airports, employees, customers, businesses, politicians- I feel like it would be politically impossible to liquidate them, especially the largest airline in the world carrying the nation's name, over COVID.

Maybe restructure the debt. But the problem is not the amount of debt. It rarely is. It's the rate and the cost to service it. At the end of the day, AA has a revenue problem, not a cost problem.

Not sure we're in a liquidity crisis or unfavorable interest rate environment in the United States.


I disagree that AA is too important to fail. None of the airlines command a stronger position than those of TWA or PAM. Airports will see the number of operations fall in a post-coronavirus world regardless of the number of airlines operating, and if AA goes under then another airline will pick up the slack. The only issue is the employees but that's not peculiar to the Big 4.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:00 pm

downsizing DFW won't happen. CLT/DCA will be fine too. It's the other hubs that should be worried.

JFK/LGA/LAX will be downsized a lot, which will allow competitors to grab those gates/slots.

PHX will be cut significantly. WN will move in and become the largest carrier there.

MIA will be downsized significantly, but they will still be the largest carrier in South Florida.

A lot of the connections that used to go through PHX and MIA will all go through DFW. Whatever happens to AAL, DFW will be around.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3625
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:11 pm

USAirKid wrote:

The question that an AA's lenders/asset holders need to ask themselves in an AA bankruptcy is where can I put this plane where I'll make more money? Right now there aren't that many spots to place planes, almost all airlines are grounding planes, and not every plane makes sense to convert for cargo where there continues to be demand.

If I'm an AA lender who has a claim on a plane, I might want to take a haircut to my debt, to continue to get payments for that plane, instead of having that plane grounded, and then needing to make payments to store it until it could be redeployed.

This is one of the reasons that airlines continue to fly even as they're losing money: so many other companies have an interest in keeping the airline flying that they'll take lower payments now instead of a complete loss.

Other carriers wouldn't be taking planes in an AA no scenario until at least mid to late next year. At that point you could easily see the winners and losers being more clear. Someone with good liquidity might be willing to take AAs airplanes for their own fleet renewal.

They might also be willing to make offers on bundles of assets that would provide sufficient finding to creditors. DL may me interested in buying the DFW, LGA, MIA,LAX hubs. UA maybe the CLT, ORD. DCA would be a massive bidding war.

They have done very valuable assets that have just been managed horribly by the company.
Last edited by Rdh3e on Tue May 19, 2020 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:12 pm

There is no doubt in my mind with social distancing not going away anytime soon (you can damn well bet not until after the US election) business travel will be down. There is no way you can have effective in person interactions and be six feet away. Even the one meter (a little less than 3.5 feet) the EU countries are talking about. You might as well be on Zoom, Webex, Skype, etc. This will alter business travel forever, not to mention an increasingly employee pool that has used this type of technology their entire adult life. Eventually business travel will return but likely to lower levels. I already see client after client that now wants virtue. Yes I'd be the first to say it's far less superior to in person interaction but tell that to the bean counters and they don't give a flying fig.

You can tell that UA and DL are already preparing for this new dynamic. And the US4 need to finally understand flying around seats full of money losing fares will never be a worthwhile venture. Don't forget people are becoming smart on how to avoid fees like bag fees by bringing huge bags onto the planes (which AA is accommodating with bigger bins) or simply walking up to the GA and saying "I'd like to check this bag." I completely agree with the statement above about the future of AA hubs. There's going to be a huge "shedding" whether in or out of Bankruptcy Court.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3625
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:45 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

The question that an AA's lenders/asset holders need to ask themselves in an AA bankruptcy is where can I put this plane where I'll make more money? Right now there aren't that many spots to place planes, almost all airlines are grounding planes, and not every plane makes sense to convert for cargo where there continues to be demand.

If I'm an AA lender who has a claim on a plane, I might want to take a haircut to my debt, to continue to get payments for that plane, instead of having that plane grounded, and then needing to make payments to store it until it could be redeployed.

This is one of the reasons that airlines continue to fly even as they're losing money: so many other companies have an interest in keeping the airline flying that they'll take lower payments now instead of a complete loss.

Other carriers wouldn't be taking planes in an AA no scenario until at least mid to late next year. At that point you could easily see the winners and losers being more clear. Someone with good liquidity might be willing to take AAs airplanes for their own fleet renewal.

They might also be willing to make offers on bundles of assets that would provide sufficient finding to creditors. DL may me interested in buying the DFW, LGA, MIA,LAX hubs. UA maybe the CLT, ORD. DCA would be a massive bidding war.

They have done very valuable assets that have just been managed horribly by the company.

My apologies for the numerous autocorrect issues in my post...
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1583
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 pm

rising wrote:
The airlines now, at least the Big 4, are really too big to fail. There are so many stakeholders- airports, employees, customers, businesses, politicians- I feel like it would be politically impossible to liquidate them, especially the largest airline in the world carrying the nation's name, over COVID.


Respectfully disagree. I understand your point about the optics of having "American" liquidate, but the truth is the industry would continue right along with out them. That's also true for DL, UA, WN...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
tphuang
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:54 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
They might also be willing to make offers on bundles of assets that would provide sufficient finding to creditors. DL may me interested in buying the DFW, LGA, MIA,LAX hubs. UA maybe the CLT, ORD. DCA would be a massive bidding war.

The problem with that is UA itself is trying desperately to avoid BK and DL also has mountains of debt.

WN, on the other hand, has a lot of cash. I wonder why they need $15 billion in cash when their cost is so much lower than legacies?
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14126
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 12:58 pm

tphuang wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
They might also be willing to make offers on bundles of assets that would provide sufficient finding to creditors. DL may me interested in buying the DFW, LGA, MIA,LAX hubs. UA maybe the CLT, ORD. DCA would be a massive bidding war.

The problem with that is UA itself is trying desperately to avoid BK and DL also has mountains of debt.

WN, on the other hand, has a lot of cash. I wonder why they need $15 billion in cash when their cost is so much lower than legacies?


WN would want the LGA and DCA slots, and as mentioned they have the resources. WN's operation would do well operating the Northeast shuttle.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3625
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 1:01 pm

tphuang wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
They might also be willing to make offers on bundles of assets that would provide sufficient finding to creditors. DL may me interested in buying the DFW, LGA, MIA,LAX hubs. UA maybe the CLT, ORD. DCA would be a massive bidding war.

The problem with that is UA itself is trying desperately to avoid BK and DL also has mountains of debt.

WN, on the other hand, has a lot of cash. I wonder why they need $15 billion in cash when their cost is so much lower than legacies?

DL/UA would likely be able to raise money for a specific asset purchase because it would be immediately collateralized by the new assets. And that's before you think of the potential earning power of the new networks.

WN is an interesting case because their CASM-ex growth was already rapidly outpacing RASM growth, so their financial position was already deteriorating (albeit from being the best in the industry).
 
N839MH
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 1:11 pm

Just to throw this in, but a lot of people said Braniff was too big at the time to fail, but it did and not just once, but twice. There’s always good that can come out of one airline closing, look what Braniff did for AA after they liquidated. There’s a lot of defunct airlines melded into theirs, UA, DL and WN’s companies, this time AA could be sold off, split up into all the other remaining airlines and that works. Spirit could take over MIA, interesting concept.

One roadkill is another’s meal.

Bona-petite!
Solodude!
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 1:39 pm

Blerg wrote:
So what went wrong since their last Chapter 11 filing? UA and DL seem to have found their way to profitability and stability while AA hasn't.


They didn't fix any of the spending issues they had prior to the first run and they spent more on stuff customers don't pay for. They were happy to brag about how much money was coming in each quarter but didn't seem to note how much was going the other way....
 
hohd
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:13 pm

For AA, it is time to take a look again at ORD, where they are subordinate to UA as a hub. May be they don't need ORD any more. And PHX, while they compete with Southwest, they don't have a good alternative in the west (DFW is too far east), LAX is a possibility, but they are not dominant there, so PHX will stay. One good thing in AA's favor is that Alaska is now a partner and perhaps due to this pandemic, DL might reduce SEA and that would favor Alaska/AA.
 
kavok
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:31 pm

One, I seriously doubt AA will liquidate under any situation. Maybe Chpt 11, but a “new AA” will just take it’s place.

That all being said, DL or UA don’t need to buy anything. They have plenty of planes right now that they don’t have a market to use them on, and unless AA’s birds are sold for pennies (which they wouldn’t), DL/UA will continue to use their existing planes. It makes far more sense than acquiring AAs and converting them.

Sure DL may expand more in LAX. UA might get back a bigger share of ORD. But those scenarios, and situations like it, would be using furloughed DL/UA people & parked DL/UA planes. DL/UA don’t need to buy anything from a potential AA creditor.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4071
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:42 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what went wrong since their last Chapter 11 filing? UA and DL seem to have found their way to profitability and stability while AA hasn't.


They didn't fix any of the spending issues they had prior to the first run and they spent more on stuff customers don't pay for. They were happy to brag about how much money was coming in each quarter but didn't seem to note how much was going the other way....


What is this spending you are referring to? New planes, new livery, new uniforms... or was there something else?
 
Detroit313
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:43 pm

Let's not pretend that Delta and United don't have a lot of debt either. 23-24 billion of debt is a lot of money. Not far behind AA and not with the young fleet AA has. By the end of the year it will be even higher for all of them.

US airlines file for bankruptcy all the time. All the legacy airlines have done it once or twice before already. It is an easy way to get out of difficult situations and cut costs.

If one of the legacy airlines does it, then the others will have to do it too. Otherwise the one that went through bankruptcy will have a big competitive advantage.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 2:55 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what went wrong since their last Chapter 11 filing? UA and DL seem to have found their way to profitability and stability while AA hasn't.


They didn't fix any of the spending issues they had prior to the first run and they spent more on stuff customers don't pay for. They were happy to brag about how much money was coming in each quarter but didn't seem to note how much was going the other way....

To read your comment you'd think AA has been unprofitable every year since emerging from bankruptcy. lol
 
UWPAviation
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:36 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 3:10 pm

hohd wrote:
For AA, it is time to take a look again at ORD, where they are subordinate to UA as a hub. May be they don't need ORD any more. And PHX, while they compete with Southwest, they don't have a good alternative in the west (DFW is too far east), LAX is a possibility, but they are not dominant there, so PHX will stay. One good thing in AA's favor is that Alaska is now a partner and perhaps due to this pandemic, DL might reduce SEA and that would favor Alaska/AA.


ORD is there 4rth biggest hub. Just a hair behind MIA who is 3rd. And significantly bigger then PHX, LAX, PHL, JFK and LGA. It's not going anywhere. Could they downsize it? Yes. But it's why to important to abandon it.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 3:19 pm

They will be fine at Chicago. It's a domestic hub which means demand should come back sooner. United is likely to cut back there too. Wn is gate constrained at Midway and unlikely to expand from there. Aside from nk, I don't know who else is eager to jump in.

Mia is the one I think will be cut significantly. Deeper South America stuff will have reduced demand. Tatl stuff will be weak. And Mia was already one of their lower performing hubs due to pressure at fll. With international reduction, a lot of their rj feeds simply are not economical. Even there, I don't think they will have too much to worry about. Delta short lived Mia adds are just that.
Both b6 and wn will be cutting back at fll. Are they really concerned about nk taking away their ff and business customers?
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 3:38 pm

Blerg wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what went wrong since their last Chapter 11 filing? UA and DL seem to have found their way to profitability and stability while AA hasn't.


They didn't fix any of the spending issues they had prior to the first run and they spent more on stuff customers don't pay for. They were happy to brag about how much money was coming in each quarter but didn't seem to note how much was going the other way....


What is this spending you are referring to? New planes, new livery, new uniforms... or was there something else?


The all important stock buy-backs which lead to this mess as airlines kept less cash on hand to weather these kinds of storms.
 
avek00
Posts: 3251
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 4:01 pm

Gotta raise that cash somehow...

American Will Pledge The AAdvantage Program To The Federal Government Within 6 Weeks

https://viewfromthewing.com/american-wi ... n-6-weeks/
Live life to the fullest.
 
hohd
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: FT: Investors bet AA will file for BK

Tue May 19, 2020 4:10 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
AA borrowed money to perform share buy-backs and here we are.

777Mech wrote:
Borrowing money to do stock buy backs, etc

NYCAAer wrote:
If he didn’t borrow money to do stock buybacks, AA might have had a fighting chance of avoiding Chapter 11.


This statement is highly misleading at the very best. AA didn't fund their buybacks with debt. They were making large profits, and they were paying back the owners as every company should look to do. According to this belief, we should say that all the major carriers funded their buybacks with debt. So, let's say it. DL funded their buybacks with debt. UA funded the buybacks with debt. Throw WN in there too. Fair is fair.



It does not matter what they borrowed money for, their debt load was higher than their peers and instead of paying down debt they chose to do stock buy backs. If they made large profits, then they should have used some of it to pay down debt or not acquire new debt.

All that money which was used for buy back has been wasted. By now most airlines should know that every 10 to 15 years there is an "event" which could cause a sudden down turn in travel, so they have to plan accordingly.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos