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beechnut
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Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 5:03 pm

Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... -737-maxs/

Quelle surprise. I had guessed that AC would be interested in the A321LR. I always figured it would be a good fit for them. Especially now in a post-Covid world when many routes will thin out. It could be a great trans-Atlantic player for them. The big question: will they get Air Transat's with the merger (if it ever happens!), or order their own?

Beech
Last edited by beechnut on Wed May 20, 2020 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
crosscheckyyz
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 5:05 pm

Posting article as the link posted by OP is broken

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... -737-maxs/
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 5:07 pm

Link fixed.

Beech
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 5:18 pm

(slow clap for Boeing)

You'd think they would've had this fixed, corona or no corona, within a year...but so far, we've heard zilch
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 5:21 pm

beechnut wrote:
Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... -737-maxs/

Quelle surprise. I had guessed that AC would be interested in the A321LR. I always figured it would be a good fit for them. Especially now in a post-Covid world when many routes will thin out. It could be a great trans-Atlantic player for them. The big question: will they get Air Transat's with the merger (if it ever happens!), or order their own?

Beech


Hardly earth shattering from and article posted in mid March....
 
jwjsamster
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 5:49 pm

Good news, looking forward to still having an airbus option in Canada!
 
marcogr12
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 7:41 pm

Why the LR and not the XLR option?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 9:09 pm

beechnut wrote:
Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... -737-maxs/

Quelle surprise. I had guessed that AC would be interested in the A321LR. I always figured it would be a good fit for them. Especially now in a post-Covid world when many routes will thin out. It could be a great trans-Atlantic player for them. The big question: will they get Air Transat's with the merger (if it ever happens!), or order their own?

Beech

I find it a bit odd we're referring to a wordpress.com site that just copied/pasted the article, when we could just point to the creator's article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 92024c3df1

That said, AC is not generating all that much "warmth":

“It gave us some optionality on potentially some other planes we might want to look at in the middle of the decade,” Rousseau told the Wolfe Global Transportation Conference.

Lord knows what their priorities will look like by the middle of the decade...
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cedarjet
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 9:19 pm

Have Air Canada actually cancelled their Maxes? Never understood why they went backwards from the (wider, more modern) A320 family to the Max, especially because it is a new typerating for them, not like AA or WN or most carriers who placed big Max orders.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
MaksFly
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 9:41 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Have Air Canada actually cancelled their Maxes? Never understood why they went backwards from the (wider, more modern) A320 family to the Max, especially because it is a new typerating for them, not like AA or WN or most carriers who placed big Max orders.


Greed and $$$. Plenty of companies choose between two good options based on what their sweetheart deal was... OR what vacation or restaurant their sales rep took them out to.
 
multimark
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 9:46 pm

MaksFly wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Have Air Canada actually cancelled their Maxes? Never understood why they went backwards from the (wider, more modern) A320 family to the Max, especially because it is a new typerating for them, not like AA or WN or most carriers who placed big Max orders.


Greed and $$$. Plenty of companies choose between two good options based on what their sweetheart deal was... OR what vacation or restaurant their sales rep took them out to.


Yep, that was just a nickel and diming decision which hindsight shows cost AC plenty in the long run.
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Wed May 20, 2020 10:12 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Have Air Canada actually cancelled their Maxes? Never understood why they went backwards from the (wider, more modern) A320 family to the Max, especially because it is a new typerating for them, not like AA or WN or most carriers who placed big Max orders.


They cancelled their deferred order for Max 9s, but the Max 8 order is still alive, with 24 aircraft already delivered before the grounding.

Beech
 
VSMUT
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 4:18 am

MaksFly wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Have Air Canada actually cancelled their Maxes? Never understood why they went backwards from the (wider, more modern) A320 family to the Max, especially because it is a new typerating for them, not like AA or WN or most carriers who placed big Max orders.


Greed and $$$. Plenty of companies choose between two good options based on what their sweetheart deal was... OR what vacation or restaurant their sales rep took them out to.


It was widely reported at the time that Boeing and GE offered significant discounts on the MAX and its engines, due to outstanding compensations for the 787 delays and Embraer engine troubles. A number of around 80% discount came up a few times.
 
TObound
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 5:09 am

VSMUT wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Have Air Canada actually cancelled their Maxes? Never understood why they went backwards from the (wider, more modern) A320 family to the Max, especially because it is a new typerating for them, not like AA or WN or most carriers who placed big Max orders.


Greed and $$$. Plenty of companies choose between two good options based on what their sweetheart deal was... OR what vacation or restaurant their sales rep took them out to.


It was widely reported at the time that Boeing and GE offered significant discounts on the MAX and its engines, due to outstanding compensations for the 787 delays and Embraer engine troubles. A number of around 80% discount came up a few times.


And yet the NEO would have been a better deal it turns out!

Although that is hindsight.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 3:05 pm

TObound wrote:
And yet the NEO would have been a better deal it turns out!
.

I don’t think anyone in their right mind would ever imagine that Boeing could build an airframe that would be grounded for 18 months!!

But ..... while finances were certainly enticing, the main reason Air Canada went for the MAX was that Boeing could deliver one two years ahead of Airbus with an A320N. In fact, had they gone for the Airbus, it would be delivered right about now, not a good time.

Hindsight indeed.
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TObound
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 3:20 pm

As Rouge gets folded into Transat, I hope we see rationalization. The 7M8s are perfect for LCC ops. And the 321s and 321LRs are perfect for mainline AC.
 
tphuang
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 3:27 pm

longhauler wrote:
TObound wrote:
And yet the NEO would have been a better deal it turns out!
.

I don’t think anyone in their right mind would ever imagine that Boeing could build an airframe that would be grounded for 18 months!!

But ..... while finances were certainly enticing, the main reason Air Canada went for the MAX was that Boeing could deliver one two years ahead of Airbus with an A320N. In fact, had they gone for the Airbus, it would be delivered right about now, not a good time.

Hindsight indeed.


Did AC know about A321LR at the time? It seems like given that the geographical location of YUL and Y?YZ, LR and XLR would be great for AC in this low demand environment for international travel. And if they get XLR now, it would make sense to also get A321NEO since they already have A321CEO.
 
raylee67
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 4:02 pm

I would think the interest in A321LR/XLR will depend on how long social distancing on planes will continue?

Today AC officially unveils the social distanced seat map for each type. The A321CEO will only sit about 130 pax
Configuration: J16Y174
Available seats for sale: J16Y115

While the 787-8 will sit about 190 pax
Configuration: J20O21Y214
Available seats for sale: J20O21Y145

So the 787-8 will be sitting about the same number of people as a 90% loaded A321 under ordinary capacity.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 7:35 pm

tphuang wrote:
Did AC know about A321LR at the time? It seems like given that the geographical location of YUL and Y?YZ, LR and XLR would be great for AC in this low demand environment for international travel. And if they get XLR now, it would make sense to also get A321NEO since they already have A321CEO.

The A321 series of aircraft are fine aircraft, but we are not talking about a 200 seat aircraft.

For the 150-170 seat slot, the choices were the A320N and the 737MAX-8. And, as I noted, Boeing had a two year edge on delivery. The MAX-9 was to eventually replace the A321 for the 200 seat need. And, as I noted, I can’t imagine anyone predicting an 18 month grounding of the types.

That AC has cancelled the MAX-9 is an indication to me that AC is indeed “cooling” on the MAX and the narrow body fleet is being re-evaluated. Remember, the initial plan was for two types; the A220 and the 737MAX-8/9. 137 seats, 169 seats and 200 seats respectively.

It will be interesting to see what eventually happens now that Airbus and Boeing can provide comparable fleets at a comparable time.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 8:19 pm

People forget that the MAX has the lowest operating costs during a Pandemic. Boeing should put that in a press release.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 9:47 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
People forget that the MAX has the lowest operating costs during a Pandemic. Boeing should put that in a press release.

Just my cynicism. The aircraft with the lowest operating cost are those that have been permanently retired to the desert. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
codyul
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 10:34 pm

longhauler wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Did AC know about A321LR at the time? It seems like given that the geographical location of YUL and Y?YZ, LR and XLR would be great for AC in this low demand environment for international travel. And if they get XLR now, it would make sense to also get A321NEO since they already have A321CEO.

The A321 series of aircraft are fine aircraft, but we are not talking about a 200 seat aircraft.

For the 150-170 seat slot, the choices were the A320N and the 737MAX-8. And, as I noted, Boeing had a two year edge on delivery. The MAX-9 was to eventually replace the A321 for the 200 seat need. And, as I noted, I can’t imagine anyone predicting an 18 month grounding of the types.

That AC has cancelled the MAX-9 is an indication to me that AC is indeed “cooling” on the MAX and the narrow body fleet is being re-evaluated. Remember, the initial plan was for two types; the A220 and the 737MAX-8/9. 137 seats, 169 seats and 200 seats respectively.

It will be interesting to see what eventually happens now that Airbus and Boeing can provide comparable fleets at a comparable time.


Good points! I'd add only that according to Rousseau some of the compensation from Boeing for the grounding was again reductions on future deliveries, so I'm thinking now that all MAX8 will be delivered. Although I wish it wasn't so.
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NWADTWE16
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Fri May 22, 2020 11:02 pm

TObound wrote:
As Rouge gets folded into Transat, I hope we see rationalization. The 7M8s are perfect for LCC ops. And the 321s and 321LRs are perfect for mainline AC.


Is that actually whats happening or is it the other way around, where Transat is folded into Rouge? I am genuinely curious what AC planned for this. I do doubt it will happen now, and i hope TS remains independant and Rouge wasnt bad the times ive flown them, ironically AC mainline is what sux
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beechnut
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Sat May 23, 2020 12:59 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
Is that actually whats happening or is it the other way around, where Transat is folded into Rouge? I am genuinely curious what AC planned for this. I do doubt it will happen now, and i hope TS remains independant and Rouge wasnt bad the times ive flown them, ironically AC mainline is what sux


Given that the Air Transat deal was for $18 a share, and TS is now trading at $7.53 or something, it hardly seems like the bargain of the century. So we can't even be sure the merger will proceed. AC has been very quiet. They may be secretly hoping they don't get regulatory approval given the current market conditions. IMHO the merger will quietly die, or the terms will be renegotiated.

Beech
 
Salomon
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Sat May 23, 2020 2:19 am

beechnut wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Is that actually whats happening or is it the other way around, where Transat is folded into Rouge? I am genuinely curious what AC planned for this. I do doubt it will happen now, and i hope TS remains independant and Rouge wasnt bad the times ive flown them, ironically AC mainline is what sux


Given that the Air Transat deal was for $18 a share, and TS is now trading at $7.53 or something, it hardly seems like the bargain of the century. So we can't even be sure the merger will proceed. AC has been very quiet. They may be secretly hoping they don't get regulatory approval given the current market conditions. IMHO the merger will quietly die, or the terms will be renegotiated.

Beech


TRZ remains a thinly traded stock and doesn’t need much volume to vary wildly up or down percentage wise. But I get your point, the market is very uncertain the deal will go through without hurdles.

However, let’s not forget the buyout deal remains valid even in case of pandemic. Prior to the COVID 19, Transat had a couple hundred million in liquidity which were included in the $720 million deal. They seem to be burning around $50 million a month right now.

As pointed out, Transat also was in the process of receiving 15 A321LRs which might just be the perfect aircraft to relaunch transatlantic operations when the time comes. Especially in an era where airlines are getting rid of A380s and B777s.

Canada’s prime minister announced this week he will be helping the airline industry. God knows what will be negotiated but it would be very surprising to simply see the AC/TRZ deal dropped out of it.

Maybe it is just the perfect storm Rovinescu was hoping for to quietly take over a competitor without too many (if any) merger remedies.
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Mon May 25, 2020 7:42 pm

The EU further assesses ... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... /ip_20_934


“... In particular, Air Canada, with its Air Canada Rouge brand, developed a business model to address the lower-cost and leisure-oriented nature of the EEA-Canada passenger air transport markets, thus directly competing with Transat. Other airlines, in particular the EEA national carriers, were found to be more distant competitors, only competing on a very small subset of routes out of their respective home hubs.

At this stage, the Commission found that even if the Canadian airline WestJet has expanded its transatlantic operations to the EEA countries, it is unlikely that WestJet would exert a sufficient competitive constraint on the merged entity with respect to the O&Ds that the Commission found problematic following its preliminary market investigation.

The proposed transaction was notified to the Commission at a point in time where the aviation sector is particularly impacted by the coronavirus outbreak. The Commission investigated the extent to which the coronavirus crisis would impact Air Canada, Transat and their competitors' operations and hence the competitive landscape in the mid- and long-term. Mergers have long-term structural effects on competition, which need to be considered even in times of severe shocks affecting the economy.”
 
marcogr12
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Mon May 25, 2020 9:47 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
People forget that the MAX has the lowest operating costs during a Pandemic. Boeing should put that in a press release.


what Boeing should put in a press release first is that MAX flies safely..Until that time comes the A321LR or XLR might just be a very good airplane for thin longhaul considering the downturn..Even AC's A333s might be too big for some routes in the years to come
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
dstblj52
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Re: Air Canada Warms To A321LR After Cancelling 737 MAXs:

Mon May 25, 2020 10:12 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
People forget that the MAX has the lowest operating costs during a Pandemic. Boeing should put that in a press release.

Just my cynicism. The aircraft with the lowest operating cost are those that have been permanently retired to the desert. :old:

No because A Boeing is paying you to not fly max aircraft, kind of like how ESA routes are really popular in the US right now because while there are no passengers you can still collect the subsidy money, and often that is enough to make the routes at the very least break even or even slightly profitable

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