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ERAU1
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13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Thu May 21, 2020 11:45 pm

Was there a reason 13L was being used for departures AND arrivals at Kennedy today 5/21?
 
Planeboy17
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 12:09 am

They’ve been using it for the past week. We departed off of 13L on Sunday evening.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 12:47 am

Not typical for it to be used for takeoffs as far as I know, generally. Mostly just landings, but wind may have been a factor, the last few days, and traffic at JFK is way, way down so it may also be a capacity allocation thing.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 12:50 am

It actually happens frequently when the airport is quiet

The airport happens to be quite quiet at the moment
 
JFKalumni
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 12:56 am

Could be anything. Wind, construction, maintenance. I miss working at JFK watching the Jazz Q400’s take off on 13L.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 2:17 am

With so little traffic at JFK these days---JFK can handle being a single-runway operation, be it 13L or 4L. A really weird configuration would be: 4R/13R landings, 13L takeoffs.
 
leader1
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 4:05 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
With so little traffic at JFK these days---JFK can handle being a single-runway operation, be it 13L or 4L. A really weird configuration would be: 4R/13R landings, 13L takeoffs.


I’ve actually seen this configuration used a few times before. FAA has a procedure for it. It’s very rare, but it does happen.

jfklganyc wrote:
It actually happens frequently when the airport is quiet

The airport happens to be quite quiet at the moment


BA used to request to depart off 13L in the evenings when arrival traffic was quiet. This was way back in the day when JFK wasn’t close to as busy as it was recently and it didn’t have the steady arrival flow.
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TW870
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 4:24 am

I don't know the answer to the OP's question but I have a guess. When the airport is busy and in a configuration when they need eastbound arrivals and departures, it makes sense to depart on 13R and land on 13L because 13R is the longest runway at JFK. Thus, during the big European departure push on a (non-COVID) evening, they can put any departure they want on 13R. But since departures are going to need to be able to turn right or left depending on whether the 4s or 22s are in use, they don't want to depart from both 13R and 13L to avoid turn conflicts after takeoff. 13L therefore gets no takeoffs. When the airport is very quiet, none of this matters, as they can vector airplanes to whatever fix they are using for departures from any runway. Why have someone taxi all the way around the airport if they can just depart them on 13L.

This COVID thing - both because of apocalypticly low volumes and reduced ATC staffing - has created unusual traffic patterns at many airports.
 
arfbool
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 5:01 am

Also check NOTAMs for any closures. Currently 13R/31L and 31R/13L are both closed.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 11:34 am

The thing that usually interferes with 13L departures are 22L arrivals.

They are usually used in tandem.

If they are solely on the 13s, you have a shot...If not it has to be really quiet
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 11:35 am

FYI, I have gotten a few 31 right departures over the last two months.
 
ltbewr
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 11:44 am

Does using 31/13 - 13/31 for takeoffs mean less noise over populated areas ?
 
JFKalumni
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 12:35 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Does using 31/13 - 13/31 for takeoffs mean less noise over populated areas ?


There’s always noise. If you’re taking off on the 13L/R , the neighborhoods of 5 towns and East Rockaway will hear the departing traffic.

On the 31L/R you’ll hear everything from Howard Beach to Starrett City and Canarsie.

I miss the Concorde flying over Canarsie at 8:00am and 2:00pm
 
TW870
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 2:21 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Does using 31/13 - 13/31 for takeoffs mean less noise over populated areas ?


There’s always noise. If you’re taking off on the 13L/R , the neighborhoods of 5 towns and East Rockaway will hear the departing traffic.

On the 31L/R you’ll hear everything from Howard Beach to Starrett City and Canarsie.

I miss the Concorde flying over Canarsie at 8:00am and 2:00pm


From my understanding, noise abatement has less to do with favored traffic patterns at JFK than the need to maximize capacity in the whole New York area. All Kennedy traffic has to more or less remain east of the airport, as LaGuardia needs most of the space over Brooklyn. Therefore, the 4/22s are the most efficient runways, as you can run all the traffic north south and keep it clear of LaGuardia to the west. They can of course arrive and depart on the 13/31s, but that requires keeping traffic east of Belt Parkway, and thus a steep right turn on 13L arrivals and a steep left turn on 31L departures. That works in good weather, but becomes much more difficult in low visibility and east flow, as ILS arrivals on the 13s disrupt all of LaGuardia's space. One days when the weather is up and down, it is much more efficient to run on the 4/22s, and the splice in departures or arrivals on the 13/31s as departure and arrival peaks require.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 2:42 pm

TW870 wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Does using 31/13 - 13/31 for takeoffs mean less noise over populated areas ?


There’s always noise. If you’re taking off on the 13L/R , the neighborhoods of 5 towns and East Rockaway will hear the departing traffic.

On the 31L/R you’ll hear everything from Howard Beach to Starrett City and Canarsie.

I miss the Concorde flying over Canarsie at 8:00am and 2:00pm


From my understanding, noise abatement has less to do with favored traffic patterns at JFK than the need to maximize capacity in the whole New York area. All Kennedy traffic has to more or less remain east of the airport, as LaGuardia needs most of the space over Brooklyn. Therefore, the 4/22s are the most efficient runways, as you can run all the traffic north south and keep it clear of LaGuardia to the west. They can of course arrive and depart on the 13/31s, but that requires keeping traffic east of Belt Parkway, and thus a steep right turn on 13L arrivals and a steep left turn on 31L departures. That works in good weather, but becomes much more difficult in low visibility and east flow, as ILS arrivals on the 13s disrupt all of LaGuardia's space. One days when the weather is up and down, it is much more efficient to run on the 4/22s, and the splice in departures or arrivals on the 13/31s as departure and arrival peaks require.


Believe me, growing up in south eastern Brooklyn I can tell you noise abatement procedures were thrown out the window. You’ll hear cargo freighters flying low at 3:00am every night.

As for airspace, JFK has unique challenges due to its proximity to LGA, FRG, and ISP. Traffic inbound for 22L/R is usually 3000’ft or higher flying the approach along the Long Island Expressway. Traffic inbound to 13L/R is usually the Canarsie approach where traffic flys directly over kingsborough community college, remains south of the belt parkway and makes the right turn over Howard Beach / Cross bay Blvd.

The approach to runway 4L/R is a challenge because GA traffic cleared through the Kennedy class bravo airspace must remain along the shoreline at or below 500’ft
 
tphuang
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 3:31 pm

If we close ISP, would that allow a lot more takeoff/landing at JFK?
 
United857
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 3:52 pm

tphuang wrote:
If we close ISP, would that allow a lot more takeoff/landing at JFK?

No, the much bigger problem is the proximity of LGA. They are so close together that the runways in use at one airport directly impact the available runways that can be used at the other. If you have bad weather, the proximity of EWR also becomes a problem due to the increase length of final approaches using the ILS.
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JFKalumni
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Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 3:52 pm

tphuang wrote:
If we close ISP, would that allow a lot more takeoff/landing at JFK?


The problem with ISP is the approach patterns. The Long Island north and south shoreline has student practice areas. While flying along the shoreline in the south practice area near captree monument, you have to remain low and clear of the class bravo airspace. This provides clearance for commercial aircraft flying the approach for 31L/R and 4L/R.

Kennedy tower controls the shoreline from the Verrazano bridge, along Rockaway Park, Far Rockaway, East Rockaway towards Jones beach. After Jones beach eastbound, NY Approach controls that area.

Most GA Kennedy class bravo traffic must fly at or below 500 along the shoreline to provide safe separation.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: 13L Takeoffs today at JFK

Fri May 22, 2020 3:57 pm

United857 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
If we close ISP, would that allow a lot more takeoff/landing at JFK?

No, the much bigger problem is the proximity of LGA. They are so close together that the runways in use at one airport directly impact the available runways that can be used at the other. If you have bad weather, the proximity of EWR also becomes a problem due to the increase length of final approaches using the ILS.


LGA traffic is mostly along the east river. They’re worry more about traffic landing and departing the heliports and EWR traffic flying the stadium visual for the crosswind runway than JFK

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