RvA wrote:

The comments here criticising the unions are hilarious. Everyone is just supposed to accept a wage that is unrealistically low?

If unions were not necessary, they wouldn't exist, but time has priven otherwise, thanks to corporate's greed.

RB211LTN wrote:

The only people to blame here are Ryanair's customers. They are fuelling the race to the bottom. Shame on them.

Well, it's a much broader problem than just Ryanair or aviation. Think of fast-fashion, Aldi, Lidl, Walmart, to name a few.

Amsterdam wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Amsterdam wrote:

Making a lot of extra money huh.
Ok tell how much “a lot of extra money” you can make on a Lauda flight please tell us. Not vague words please but tell how much is possible to make on a flight, on a day, week, month or year etc.

Reasons to join our Cabin Crew Team!
• Free Training
• Allowance paid during training
• Free uniform in year 1 – Uniform allowance in year 2
• Competitive basic salary
• Flight duty pay/sales bonus
• Year 1 on target earnings of €17-€25k/£16-21k
• Fantastic promotional opportunities
• Great choice of bases.
• Stable 5 on 3 off roster
• Staff travel
• Security of working for a financially stable airline.
• Depending on country we have Permanent, Contract and Seasonal positions.

According to the proposal given to the Lauda crews, bonuses and provisions can increase your salary by up to 150%!

https://www.derstandard.de/story/200011 ... zt-sich-zu

And before you say, that it is unfair, do not forget that FR will now simply use crews with Irish or Maltese contracts, which will probably make even less.

I ask again:

I dont see anywhere written how you can make “a lot of extra money” like you say. Please tell how please. What do employees have to actually do to get that “a lot of extra money.” You seem to know. Please share that with us.

Please explain what you consider “a lot” and how people can earn that “a lot”.
Thanks

You can increase your base salary by 150% when flying many sectors and selling as lot of stuff onboard, and you still earn not much in absolute terms. But the actual problems lies with the governments, who tolerate the shenanigans of FR.

seahawk wrote:

Strato2 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

So 300 jobs lost in a crisis due to some unions not wanting to give in. #sad But is a good chance for Ryanair, take the slots and use them with Malta Air with has an even lower cost base.

Would you work your ass off and still not be able to pay your bills?

Better than making no money, no? And if you are not lazy, you can make a lot of extra money through selling stuff on board, which is rewarded with bonuses. So Ryanair is a fair employer that gives people the room to achieve their full potential by offering the best service.

Being forced to sell expensive junk food and forcing tickets for a scam lottery down the throats of customers to make a living is not "fair". There is no guarantee that the customers are willing to buy the junk in the first place. That is presuming that there are any customers to sell it to, to begin with. Being forced to go to work when you are sick in order to make a living is not "fair".

zkojq wrote:

aw70 wrote:

Amsterdam wrote:

Ryanair knows their offer was below any minimum standard. They put it on the table to have an excuse to close the base and blame it on the union.

Exactly this. Good riddance, Ryanair is the sort of company that no one should be sad to see go.

Ryanair is a scourge on the European skies and on the European taxpayer. The more people realise this the better. I hope that the Lauda adventure cost them a lot of money.

Ironic for the Lauda if being made redundant nets them more in monthly unemployment benifits than they'd get under this new contract.

The European idea was about raising standards of living for all, not lowering the standards to those of the the poorest nations. Ryanair has been extremely detrimental to that development.

seahawk wrote:

You can increase your base salary by 150% when flying many sectors and selling as lot of stuff onboard, and you still earn not much in absolute terms. But the actual problems lies with the governments, who tolerate the shenanigans of FR.

How are they going to earn that 150% with the limited inflight service FR will be offering? Moreover, to whom given the lack of demand?

Y'all please refrain from personal attacks on other users.

Both sides have their valid points on economic opportunities and working conditions, it's a long-standing debate with no easy solution. In this particular case, the unions made a decision, as did FR. As with any other business, employees can choose where they work and on what terms, companies can have their ideas on what they want to offer, and customers can also choose what travel experience they prefer. But no need for namecalling.

Thanks!

LJ wrote:

seahawk wrote:

You can increase your base salary by 150% when flying many sectors and selling as lot of stuff onboard, and you still earn not much in absolute terms. But the actual problems lies with the governments, who tolerate the shenanigans of FR.

How are they going to earn that 150% with the limited inflight service FR will be offering? Moreover, to whom given the lack of demand?

It is nothing new, is it? Ryanair is treating the staff in that way for a long time and still they find crews, people fly with them, airports are eager to have them as customers and governments fail to enforce standards in the industry.

seahawk wrote:

It is nothing new, is it? Ryanair is treating the staff in that way for a long time and still they find crews, people fly with them, airports are eager to have them as customers and governments fail to enforce standards in the industry.

Yes, and ship owners and plantation owners made plenty of money off slavery, people bought clothes made from the cotton and drank the rum, what's the problem? Slavery was too cruel, so they moved on to 'indentured servants' and various other dodgy forms of economic slavery. FR is using pretty much every dodgy mechanism it can to enrich itself at the expense of its employees. As you wrote, the idea is to close the loopholes FR uses. The problem is there is always another dodgy country around that will find it in their interest to keep the loopholes opened. This union took a stand and they should be applauded, even if they did it largely for selfish reasons.

Revelation wrote:

seahawk wrote:

It is nothing new, is it? Ryanair is treating the staff in that way for a long time and still they find crews, people fly with them, airports are eager to have them as customers and governments fail to enforce standards in the industry.

Yes, and ship owners and plantation owners made plenty of money off slavery, people bought clothes made from the cotton and drank the rum, what's the problem? Slavery was too cruel, so they moved on to 'indentured servants' and various other dodgy forms of economic slavery. FR is using pretty much every dodgy mechanism it can to enrich itself at the expense of its employees. As you wrote, the idea is to close the loopholes FR uses. The problem is there is always another dodgy country around that will find it in their interest to keep the loopholes opened. This union took a stand and they should be applauded, even if they did it largely for selfish reasons.

No, the government should asign a hefty fine for offering a contract below minimum wage. Employees should not be facing a situation in which they can only loose.

They should take the slots away from FR ! If they close Lauda , they should loose the slots too !

SCQ83 wrote:

So this is another Wizz Air success (at least for the time being). I definitely think that in the post-COVID world, Wizz Air will be the biggest winner in Europe.

Wizz and Air Baltic seem to be the most prepared in Europe for the post Covid19 environment. Wizz is best placed for VIE, but if AirBaltic acts quick enough, they will identify unserved markets that a small A220 can fill that the A320/738/A321 might be too large.

Lightsaber

Delta777Jet wrote:

They should take the slots away from FR ! If they close Lauda , they should loose the slots too !

What are the slot trading rules? If the can be sold, FR buys for 5 Euro. If not, then to the pool to be distributed.

Lightsaber

I find it quite “funny” how some are arguing about working standards at FR and how FR needs to be locked out of most countries while sitting in their living room, wearing pants made by children in Bangladesh (or another country or a different piece of clothes, you get what I mean). And don’t forget to go out and eat at some places where your server will go home after a long shift with like 20 or 30 bucks in his or her pockets due to it being a slow night with almost no tips. Oh and be sure to take an UBER to get there as you always do, because they are known to treat their people with respect and pay acceptable salaries.

This is business. No one is forcing anybody to accept it and work for FR. Don’t like it? Quit! Have no where else to go? Do it until you have somewhere else to go. Can’t do either? Quit and enjoy the benefit of being eligible for unemployment payments in most countries in Europe.

And what else no one here seems to think about is that Lauda didn’t just furlough it’s employees in Vienna, they were all given the “Kurzarbeit” which means that the employee doesn’t just get the 50 or 55% (of the last income) unemployment payment, they get at least 80, mostly 90% of their income while the country pays back up to 90% of the salary to FR. Still at least 10% the company has to cover while not making a single buck.

Do I agree with everything FR does? Heck do I fly them? No. But it’s business, and at one point they won’t find enough employees anymore, forcing them to make corrections. But that’s the only way it should work, not through some union representatives who only care about their own butt instead of doing what they’re supposed to do - represent union members, who clearly voted FOR it, knowing they’d still be better off with this at the time being, and also knowing that as soon as it picks up again, they will be able to make a decision and quit and work somewhere else if they don’t want it anymore.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

How does Ryanair propose to operate flights in future at Vienna ? Will they just rely on flights from bases elsewhere (with crew on lower wages) ? Revert to making Bratislava their airport for Vienna ? Or hire crew on (for example) Bulgarian contracts and tell them to move for a few months at a time to live near Vienna airport ?

Ryanair opened recently (or at least they were planning to, cannot remember for sure) a Malta Air (AL) base in VIE. Also shortly before the situation escalated, they were looking forward to open a Ryanair (FR, Ireland) base at the airport, so these two Ryanairs would just replace Lauda.

seahawk wrote:

[...] then offer time sharing apartments in Vienna from another contactor to the crews, so that a large part of the salary will be eaten up by renting a bed in Vienna.

As far as I know, Ryanair only offers (paid) accommodation to crew in training, but not to already operating ones.

Delta777Jet wrote:

They should take the slots away from FR ! If they close Lauda , they should loose the slots too !

....... or and and pay the average fees like Austrian Airlines do ! FR good bye ??

You all seem to forget that Ryanair is a thriving business exactly because a vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions... as long as they can get access to those cheap Ryanair fares.Why are you constantly attacking FR when they are merely a product of consumer demands?

Furthermore, another thing I don't understand is why are some celebrating this as a victory? VIE will still have the same price list for FR and they will simply replace Lauda metal with their own. In the end nothing will change. With Austrian Airlines grounded and its fate uncertain, slow demand and collapsing numbers at the airport, VIE management will try to stimulate Ryanair quite a bit. After all, they earn money from each passenger they carry. Plus, wasn't VIE that slashed their charges so that evil airlines like Wizz Air and Ryanair could fly from there? So if you are angry at someone please direct it towards VIE management and passengers who book flights with such airlines.

Why are these rich Viennese passengers opting to fly with a 'nasty' airline like Ryanair in stead of supporting gloriously responsible Austrian Airlines which treats its employees with dignity and respect? Here we are talking about a rich market, not some economically devastated region in eastern Europe.

Finally, one has to wonder if Vienna's high costs are an issue for airlines based there. After all, Austrian Airlines has historically struggled to become profitable. Maybe Vienna is simply not big enough to support a major, profitable airline.

oldJoe wrote:

Delta777Jet wrote:

They should take the slots away from FR ! If they close Lauda , they should loose the slots too !

....... or and and pay the average fees like Austrian Airlines do ! FR good bye ??

While we are living in fairytale land maybe the Austrian government can instruct OS to hire these 300 people who lost their jobs.

lowwkjax wrote:

I find it quite “funny” how some are arguing about working standards at FR and how FR needs to be locked out of most countries while sitting in their living room, wearing pants made by children in Bangladesh (or another country or a different piece of clothes, you get what I mean). And don’t forget to go out and eat at some places where your server will go home after a long shift with like 20 or 30 bucks in his or her pockets due to it being a slow night with almost no tips. Oh and be sure to take an UBER to get there as you always do, because they are known to treat their people with respect and pay acceptable salaries.

This is business. No one is forcing anybody to accept it and work for FR. Don’t like it? Quit! Have no where else to go? Do it until you have somewhere else to go. Can’t do either? Quit and enjoy the benefit of being eligible for unemployment payments in most countries in Europe.

And what else no one here seems to think about is that Lauda didn’t just furlough it’s employees in Vienna, they were all given the “Kurzarbeit” which means that the employee doesn’t just get the 50 or 55% (of the last income) unemployment payment, they get at least 80, mostly 90% of their income while the country pays back up to 90% of the salary to FR. Still at least 10% the company has to cover while not making a single buck.

Do I agree with everything FR does? Heck do I fly them? No. But it’s business, and at one point they won’t find enough employees anymore, forcing them to make corrections. But that’s the only way it should work, not through some union representatives who only care about their own butt instead of doing what they’re supposed to do - represent union members, who clearly voted FOR it, knowing they’d still be better off with this at the time being, and also knowing that as soon as it picks up again, they will be able to make a decision and quit and work somewhere else if they don’t want it anymore.

Kurzarbeit is not paid by the company but by the government or the related social security insurance.

lightsaber wrote:

Wizz and Air Baltic seem to be the most prepared in Europe for the post Covid19 environment. Wizz is best placed for VIE, but if AirBaltic acts quick enough, they will identify unserved markets that a small A220 can fill that the A320/738/A321 might be too large.

More likely Air Baltic will remain a niche carrier focused on RIX/VNO/TLL. No need to mention those are very small markets and geographically are very peripheral. To serve smaller Europe-wide markets, Volotea seems better prepared (A319), since they have already bases in France, Spain, Italy and Greece.

Wizz Air is not only best placed for VIE, but they can become a real competitor to Ryanair and easyJet in Western Europe, which at the moment they are not (save London and Vienna). The problem W6 had in Western Europe is that the market was too crowded for new companies like them. But now that is all gone and they will have no problem getting slots or crew anywhere they want in Western Europe.

Wizz Air and to a lesser extent Volotea seem like they will emerge as much more relevant carriers in Europe in the post-COVID world.

Niki Lauda is turning in his grave seeing his name being put to shame but that devilcompany Ryanair. I honestly don’t understand people still work/fly or travel with this company. What a joke of a company!

Must say though that their MX seems te be very good, they rarely have big issues wih their operational readiness. Don’t really know about the Lauda part with the mix of 2nd hand frames from about everywhere.

DALCE wrote:

Niki Lauda is turning in his grave seeing his name being put to shame but that devilcompany Ryanair. I honestly don’t understand people still work/fly or travel with this company. What a joke of a company!

Must say though that their MX seems te be very good, they rarely have big issues wih their operational readiness. Don’t really know about the Lauda part with the mix of 2nd hand frames from about everywhere.

Considering how quickly they turn over the fleet, reliability should not come as a surprise.

Blerg wrote:

You all seem to forget that Ryanair is a thriving business exactly because a vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions... as long as they can get access to those cheap Ryanair fares.Why are you constantly attacking FR when they are merely a product of consumer demands?

You are on to something.
Ryanair thrives on the selfishness of their customers.
They get a cheap fare, and someone else gets [email protected]
Beautiful.

I have always admired how cynical and well run this company is, and at the same time disliked them for showing how ugly human nature is, when push come to shove.
Ryanair cares about Ryanair. They take no social responsibility, they fuel unsustainable overtourism (as do others), use tax havens etc.

I hope more and more customer awareness will undermine they way FR is run, but I'm not optimistic.
The way they treated their austrian employees is not something unique, and it will happen again and again in other places.

And last, just because there is a demand for something, doesn't mean there should be a supply.
But that is politics.

seahawk wrote:

lowwkjax wrote:

I find it quite “funny” how some are arguing about working standards at FR and how FR needs to be locked out of most countries while sitting in their living room, wearing pants made by children in Bangladesh (or another country or a different piece of clothes, you get what I mean). And don’t forget to go out and eat at some places where your server will go home after a long shift with like 20 or 30 bucks in his or her pockets due to it being a slow night with almost no tips. Oh and be sure to take an UBER to get there as you always do, because they are known to treat their people with respect and pay acceptable salaries.

This is business. No one is forcing anybody to accept it and work for FR. Don’t like it? Quit! Have no where else to go? Do it until you have somewhere else to go. Can’t do either? Quit and enjoy the benefit of being eligible for unemployment payments in most countries in Europe.

And what else no one here seems to think about is that Lauda didn’t just furlough it’s employees in Vienna, they were all given the “Kurzarbeit” which means that the employee doesn’t just get the 50 or 55% (of the last income) unemployment payment, they get at least 80, mostly 90% of their income while the country pays back up to 90% of the salary to FR. Still at least 10% the company has to cover while not making a single buck.

Do I agree with everything FR does? Heck do I fly them? No. But it’s business, and at one point they won’t find enough employees anymore, forcing them to make corrections. But that’s the only way it should work, not through some union representatives who only care about their own butt instead of doing what they’re supposed to do - represent union members, who clearly voted FOR it, knowing they’d still be better off with this at the time being, and also knowing that as soon as it picks up again, they will be able to make a decision and quit and work somewhere else if they don’t want it anymore.

Kurzarbeit is not paid by the company but by the government or the related social security insurance.

That’s simply wrong. Please do your research before quoting someone else and throwing wrong information out there. Up to 90% is being paid by the government to the company, so at least 10% of the salaries is the amount a company has to cover.

Source: myself, business owner in Austria

Dahlgardo wrote:

Blerg wrote:

You all seem to forget that Ryanair is a thriving business exactly because a vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions... as long as they can get access to those cheap Ryanair fares.Why are you constantly attacking FR when they are merely a product of consumer demands?

You are on to something.
Ryanair thrives on the selfishness of their customers.
They get a cheap fare, and someone else gets [email protected]
Beautiful.

I have always admired how cynical and well run this company is, and at the same time disliked them for showing how ugly human nature is, when push come to shove.
Ryanair cares about Ryanair. They take no social responsibility, they fuel unsustainable overtourism (as do others), use tax havens etc.

I hope more and more customer awareness will undermine they way FR is run, but I'm not optimistic.
The way they treated their austrian employees is not something unique, and it will happen again and again in other places.

And last, just because there is a demand for something, doesn't mean there should be a supply.
But that is politics.

Right on point! Being yet not completely ruined, I will continue to vote with my wallet, and avoid FR as much as possible, also because the cheapest fare hides also worst service and the airport they serve they are not the best, I need space for my legs, and prefer to fly with whom respects the employees. hence I'll not participate to the race to the bottom.

Blerg wrote:

because a vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions...

Which Europe are you talking about?

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

because a vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions...

Which Europe are you talking about?

The 146 million Europe that flew on Ryanair last year.

lowwkjax wrote:

seahawk wrote:

lowwkjax wrote:

I find it quite “funny” how some are arguing about working standards at FR and how FR needs to be locked out of most countries while sitting in their living room, wearing pants made by children in Bangladesh (or another country or a different piece of clothes, you get what I mean). And don’t forget to go out and eat at some places where your server will go home after a long shift with like 20 or 30 bucks in his or her pockets due to it being a slow night with almost no tips. Oh and be sure to take an UBER to get there as you always do, because they are known to treat their people with respect and pay acceptable salaries.

This is business. No one is forcing anybody to accept it and work for FR. Don’t like it? Quit! Have no where else to go? Do it until you have somewhere else to go. Can’t do either? Quit and enjoy the benefit of being eligible for unemployment payments in most countries in Europe.

And what else no one here seems to think about is that Lauda didn’t just furlough it’s employees in Vienna, they were all given the “Kurzarbeit” which means that the employee doesn’t just get the 50 or 55% (of the last income) unemployment payment, they get at least 80, mostly 90% of their income while the country pays back up to 90% of the salary to FR. Still at least 10% the company has to cover while not making a single buck.

Do I agree with everything FR does? Heck do I fly them? No. But it’s business, and at one point they won’t find enough employees anymore, forcing them to make corrections. But that’s the only way it should work, not through some union representatives who only care about their own butt instead of doing what they’re supposed to do - represent union members, who clearly voted FOR it, knowing they’d still be better off with this at the time being, and also knowing that as soon as it picks up again, they will be able to make a decision and quit and work somewhere else if they don’t want it anymore.

Kurzarbeit is not paid by the company but by the government or the related social security insurance.

That’s simply wrong. Please do your research before quoting someone else and throwing wrong information out there. Up to 90% is being paid by the government to the company, so at least 10% of the salaries is the amount a company has to cover.

Source: myself, business owner in Austria

no
on a 10:90 relation in worktime:salary

the employee gets 90% of its full salary
the employee has to work 10% of its full working time
the business owner gets a about 90% refund of that empleyees salary from the goverment

but then: surprise, surprise ... the business owner has to pay the full „urlaubs und weihnachtsgeld“ to the employee and dont get any refund
as those two salary parts are 1/6th of the annual summary the 10% from the goverment PR does not mean 10%

so a 10:90 relation really means for the employee
about 28% of the original salary, payed by the business owner
about 62% of the original salary, payed by the goverment
and about 10% of working time, provided by the employee

in the moment in austria
about 500.000 employees are jobless
about 1,100.000 employees are accepting the „kurzarbeit“ modell, described above
a lot of them now earn a few % below the usuall minimum ( but only work 10% of the total they get payed for)

but well, vida could not accept it for the 300 FR employees ...

lowwkjax wrote:

seahawk wrote:

lowwkjax wrote:

I find it quite “funny” how some are arguing about working standards at FR and how FR needs to be locked out of most countries while sitting in their living room, wearing pants made by children in Bangladesh (or another country or a different piece of clothes, you get what I mean). And don’t forget to go out and eat at some places where your server will go home after a long shift with like 20 or 30 bucks in his or her pockets due to it being a slow night with almost no tips. Oh and be sure to take an UBER to get there as you always do, because they are known to treat their people with respect and pay acceptable salaries.

This is business. No one is forcing anybody to accept it and work for FR. Don’t like it? Quit! Have no where else to go? Do it until you have somewhere else to go. Can’t do either? Quit and enjoy the benefit of being eligible for unemployment payments in most countries in Europe.

And what else no one here seems to think about is that Lauda didn’t just furlough it’s employees in Vienna, they were all given the “Kurzarbeit” which means that the employee doesn’t just get the 50 or 55% (of the last income) unemployment payment, they get at least 80, mostly 90% of their income while the country pays back up to 90% of the salary to FR. Still at least 10% the company has to cover while not making a single buck.

Do I agree with everything FR does? Heck do I fly them? No. But it’s business, and at one point they won’t find enough employees anymore, forcing them to make corrections. But that’s the only way it should work, not through some union representatives who only care about their own butt instead of doing what they’re supposed to do - represent union members, who clearly voted FOR it, knowing they’d still be better off with this at the time being, and also knowing that as soon as it picks up again, they will be able to make a decision and quit and work somewhere else if they don’t want it anymore.

Kurzarbeit is not paid by the company but by the government or the related social security insurance.

That’s simply wrong. Please do your research before quoting someone else and throwing wrong information out there. Up to 90% is being paid by the government to the company, so at least 10% of the salaries is the amount a company has to cover.

Source: myself, business owner in Austria

,
I prefer to go with an official source and that says that the employer is fully compensated. https://www.ams.at/unternehmen/personal ... nternehmen

Kikko19 wrote:

Right on point! Being yet not completely ruined, I will continue to vote with my wallet, and avoid FR as much as possible, also because the cheapest fare hides also worst service and the airport they serve they are not the best, I need space for my legs, and prefer to fly with whom respects the employees. hence I'll not participate to the race to the bottom.

You can afford to fly with other airlines because of the downward pressure put on fares by the LCCs.
The service I experience on this LCC is no worse than other Airlines flying the same route. If you want to be mollycoddled then do so but be prepared to be disappointed by your chosen service provider.
The route I fly using this LCC is operated by other airlines too and is the preferred airport in the respective city on both sides.
Legroom is similar or better on this LCC than the other airlines on this route. Elbow room is an inch less but that is because the competitors fly A32X planes.

seahawk wrote:

lowwkjax wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Kurzarbeit is not paid by the company but by the government or the related social security insurance.

That’s simply wrong. Please do your research before quoting someone else and throwing wrong information out there. Up to 90% is being paid by the government to the company, so at least 10% of the salaries is the amount a company has to cover.

Source: myself, business owner in Austria

,
I prefer to go with an official source and that says that the employer is fully compensated. https://www.ams.at/unternehmen/personal ... nternehmen

Yes, the two bonus payments (holiday and Christmas bonus) are partially covered for and included in the payments the business receives, but as I said, only partially.

Again, I am a business owner in Austria, I do have employees and I’m working with this model, so I know exactly who gets what and how much since I’ve already received two payments from them.

lowwkjax wrote:

seahawk wrote:

lowwkjax wrote:

That’s simply wrong. Please do your research before quoting someone else and throwing wrong information out there. Up to 90% is being paid by the government to the company, so at least 10% of the salaries is the amount a company has to cover.

Source: myself, business owner in Austria

,
I prefer to go with an official source and that says that the employer is fully compensated. https://www.ams.at/unternehmen/personal ... nternehmen

Yes, the two bonus payments (holiday and Christmas bonus) are partially covered for and included in the payments the business receives, but as I said, only partially.

Again, I am a business owner in Austria, I do have employees and I’m working with this model, so I know exactly who gets what and how much since I’ve already received two payments from them.

Just FR does not pay those bonuses.

Ryanair saw an opportunity where either outcome was a win-win situation for them. Ryanair was not immune from the intense competition experienced at VIE recently, Lauda was very likely finding it hard to make progress in such a crowded environment so the closure of the base or a drastic contract reform for staff and a battle with unions was inevitable, the pandemic just sped that process up to light speed.

Ryanair can now continue the routes it deems salvageable with lower paid non based crew, either from Ryanair, Malta Air or Buzz. It's a race to the bottom like no other.

I feel for the staff but they were going to be in an impossible situation either way, keep their jobs but try to live on the poverty wage offered or lose their jobs and seek support elsewhere. The 'Ryanair Group' will be an increasingly difficult place to work but it'll remain as tempting as ever while it grows and offers new entrants to aviation a chance at a career they've always wanted. So long as this continues, Ryanair will always attempt to lower pay and conditions for an ever increasing profit margin, this will continue to have a knock on effect for wider industry in Europe and while great for consumers, it's not always good news for society as a whole.

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

because a vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions...

Which Europe are you talking about?

The 146 million Europe that flew on Ryanair last year.

And just that can lead to your conclusion?
How many workers are in the unions? How many European countries do have minimal wage/living wage? How does EU labour law fare with the rest of the world?

There are LCCs of course, and unfortunately the two English speaking EU states are providing a wide loop, but just like fast fashion, although it has a strong presence in our society, labour condition has been improving across the EU, and it's a journey of civilization, just like when they banned slavery back then, it wasn't because the model wasn't profitable. Now back to Lauda, the union has decided that working poverty is not acceptable, I wish them well. It's very cheap to have a go at them when the offer is below poverty line. Austria doesn't have official minimum wage, it relies on collective agreements which covers 99% workers and from 2020 the monthly minimum wage is increased to €1,500 for all sectors, FR's offer of €850 is beyond the pale, regrettable as it is in the aviation of VIE, it's far better to get rid of Lauda altogether, Malta based airlines flying to VIE will have less negative impact than local exploitation of labour condition.

RB211LTN wrote:

The only people to blame here are Ryanair's customers. They are fuelling the race to the bottom. Shame on them.

With respect, what gives you the right to judge what airline passengers choose to do. Are 14 million customers wrong, and you are right? When I fly I choose the flight(s) depending on route, schedule, price and other variables, but I certainly do not give a thought to any particular airline's corporate structure, governance or policies.....how an airline does it's business is really none of my concern. If such is yours, that is entirely up to yourself, but it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

zkojq wrote:

aw70 wrote:

Amsterdam wrote:

Ryanair knows their offer was below any minimum standard. They put it on the table to have an excuse to close the base and blame it on the union.

Exactly this. Good riddance, Ryanair is the sort of company that no one should be sad to see go.

Ryanair is a scourge on the European skies and on the European taxpayer. The more people realise this the better. I hope that the Lauda adventure cost them a lot of money.

Ironic for the Lauda if being made redundant nets them more in monthly unemployment benifits than they'd get under this new contract.

No-one is making you, or anyone else, choose to fly them (or any particular airline) so why 'the song and dance' about it? 14 million choose to fly them in 2019, so are you saying they are all wrong then in your opinion? FR fly a vast network of routes across Europe unmatched by any airline, including passenger numbers, so where the pretend 'scourge' coming from?

I have sympathy for all the cabin crew within Ryanair group - namely Ryanair, Lauda, Buzz, etc.... they are paid minimally for a job that is frankly soul destroying (how much satisfaction can you really get from selling your 100th cappuccino ?) with not a huge amount of career upside and, post qualifying as cabin crew, not much chance to learn skills that are *transferrable* to a non-cabin-crew role that could not be learned by working in a shop instead.

For the record - I flew 33 sectors with Ryanair in 2019, and 36 sectors with FR in 2018 - all flights were paid from my own money and not reclaimed as expenses

That said, it's also the fault of the people who join Ryanair's airlines as cabin crew. Word must have got back by now to all school leavers, or internally within the company, that one should aspire to higher things in life than FR cabin crew - the reputation of FR is known throughout Europe. The economy of Europe has changed significantly compared to 30 years ago - you get paid for what you know; those with knowledge-based technology skills get paid more than those who work as a barista in a cafe. If they are on a 5-days-on-3-days-off rota, then during those 3 days off, it's time to learn something new - either part time college, or learning new things online and to then find something better to do with their lives.

By all means, go work for Ryanair as cabin crew for 18 months, learn customer service skills and improve your English. But after 18 months, it's time to either stay in a career rut, or find something else to do instead

seahawk wrote:

Strato2 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

So 300 jobs lost in a crisis due to some unions not wanting to give in. #sad But is a good chance for Ryanair, take the slots and use them with Malta Air with has an even lower cost base.

Would you work your ass off and still not be able to pay your bills?

Better than making no money, no? And if you are not lazy, you can make a lot of extra money through selling stuff on board, which is rewarded with bonuses. So Ryanair is a fair employer that gives people the room to achieve their full potential by offering the best service.

YES better than making no money? Why work for free? Sure they will be unemployed but the social welfare system in Austria or whatever European country they may come from will provide them with financial aid and educational/training support.

In the US, it may be different because if you got no money coming in, well you're kind in a tough situation with being able to live. And god forbid you get sick...

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Which Europe are you talking about?

The 146 million Europe that flew on Ryanair last year.

And just that can lead to your conclusion?
How many workers are in the unions? How many European countries do have minimal wage/living wage? How does EU labour law fare with the rest of the world?

There are LCCs of course, and unfortunately the two English speaking EU states are providing a wide loop, but just like fast fashion, although it has a strong presence in our society, labour condition has been improving across the EU, and it's a journey of civilization, just like when they banned slavery back then, it wasn't because the model wasn't profitable. Now back to Lauda, the union has decided that working poverty is not acceptable, I wish them well. It's very cheap to have a go at them when the offer is below poverty line. Austria doesn't have official minimum wage, it relies on collective agreements which covers 99% workers and from 2020 the monthly minimum wage is increased to €1,500 for all sectors, FR's offer of €850 is beyond the pale, regrettable as it is in the aviation of VIE, it's far better to get rid of Lauda altogether, Malta based airlines flying to VIE will have less negative impact than local exploitation of labour condition.

Are you seriously that disillusioned to compare working for Lauda with slavery? First of all, most slaves were sold into slavery, they were not there by choice. Lauda/Ryanair employees willingly applied to work there all the while knowing what kind of business they were getting involved with. Personally I am happy they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned. Now thanks to the unions (which are generally useless) these people will have absolutely no income and who knows if they will manage to find an aviation job in the next five years. I guess you are right, having 300 extra unemployed in Vienna is better than having them work for FR.

As for Europe, Ryanair operates outside these two English speaking countries you referred to. Seems like it's not only their citizens who do not care but also workers' rights but also those in in Spain, Italy, France, Germoney, Poland, Greece... plus almost every airport out there wishes to have them, even FRA!

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

The 146 million Europe that flew on Ryanair last year.

And just that can lead to your conclusion?
How many workers are in the unions? How many European countries do have minimal wage/living wage? How does EU labour law fare with the rest of the world?

There are LCCs of course, and unfortunately the two English speaking EU states are providing a wide loop, but just like fast fashion, although it has a strong presence in our society, labour condition has been improving across the EU, and it's a journey of civilization, just like when they banned slavery back then, it wasn't because the model wasn't profitable. Now back to Lauda, the union has decided that working poverty is not acceptable, I wish them well. It's very cheap to have a go at them when the offer is below poverty line. Austria doesn't have official minimum wage, it relies on collective agreements which covers 99% workers and from 2020 the monthly minimum wage is increased to €1,500 for all sectors, FR's offer of €850 is beyond the pale, regrettable as it is in the aviation of VIE, it's far better to get rid of Lauda altogether, Malta based airlines flying to VIE will have less negative impact than local exploitation of labour condition.

Are you seriously that disillusioned to compare working for Lauda with slavery? First of all, most slaves were sold into slavery, they were not there by choice. Lauda/Ryanair employees willingly applied to work there all the while knowing what kind of business they were getting involved with. Personally I am happy they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned. Now thanks to the unions (which are generally useless) these people will have absolutely no income and who knows if they will manage to find an aviation job in the next five years. I guess you are right, having 300 extra unemployed in Vienna is better than having them work for FR.

As for Europe, Ryanair operates outside these two English speaking countries you referred to. Seems like it's not only their citizens who do not care but also workers' rights but also those in in Spain, Italy, France, Germoney, Poland, Greece... plus almost every airport out there wishes to have them, even FRA!

Nice trying twisting purpose of the slavery reference and moving goalpost. Your FR's customer number proving 'vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions' is the same logic as profitability and widely use of salary means vast majority of people wanted it.

What do you mean 'the union misled them'? You knew the internal communication?
Frankly those people won't give a damn if you are happy or not. But it's just cheap of anyone to have a go at people who choose not to accept such aggressive pay cut.
Austria is a welfare state and there is social umbrella in place, in Lauda case I suspect they'd have less money coming in if they accept FR's offer. And it's not like they will not be employed again, aviation or not. Like mentioned above, this is not USA or some poor countries where you couldn't afford quitting a shit job. Most western European countries' gross minimum wage are above €1500, in Vienna you just can't make ends meet with €850, better start looking for something else.

leghorn wrote:

Kikko19 wrote:

Right on point! Being yet not completely ruined, I will continue to vote with my wallet, and avoid FR as much as possible, also because the cheapest fare hides also worst service and the airport they serve they are not the best, I need space for my legs, and prefer to fly with whom respects the employees. hence I'll not participate to the race to the bottom.

You can afford to fly with other airlines because of the downward pressure put on fares by the LCCs.
The service I experience on this LCC is no worse than other Airlines flying the same route. If you want to be mollycoddled then do so but be prepared to be disappointed by your chosen service provider.
The route I fly using this LCC is operated by other airlines too and is the preferred airport in the respective city on both sides.
Legroom is similar or better on this LCC than the other airlines on this route. Elbow room is an inch less but that is because the competitors fly A32X planes.

I don't agree, a healthy competition between national carriers would have the same results, lower fares, avoiding the massacre of social rights of workers. And I'm ready (i'm already doing it ) to pay a premium to LH for example to keep bookeeping in Germany rather than in Ireland (I Know SK is doing it, tax avoidance on own soil, not good practice).

Kikko19 wrote:

(I Know SK is doing it, tax avoidance on own soil, not good practice).

Thankfully it looks like they dropped it due to the coronacrisis.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

I have sympathy for all the cabin crew within Ryanair group - namely Ryanair, Lauda, Buzz, etc.... they are paid minimally for a job that is frankly soul destroying (how much satisfaction can you really get from selling your 100th cappuccino ?) with not a huge amount of career upside and, post qualifying as cabin crew, not much chance to learn skills that are *transferrable* to a non-cabin-crew role that could not be learned by working in a shop instead.

For the record - I flew 33 sectors with Ryanair in 2019, and 36 sectors with FR in 2018 - all flights were paid from my own money and not reclaimed as expenses

That said, it's also the fault of the people who join Ryanair's airlines as cabin crew. Word must have got back by now to all school leavers, or internally within the company, that one should aspire to higher things in life than FR cabin crew - the reputation of FR is known throughout Europe. The economy of Europe has changed significantly compared to 30 years ago - you get paid for what you know; those with knowledge-based technology skills get paid more than those who work as a barista in a cafe. If they are on a 5-days-on-3-days-off rota, then during those 3 days off, it's time to learn something new - either part time college, or learning new things online and to then find something better to do with their lives.

By all means, go work for Ryanair as cabin crew for 18 months, learn customer service skills and improve your English. But after 18 months, it's time to either stay in a career rut, or find something else to do instead

Well said. But I would add one more party to blame - all the other airlines who rely too much on hiring ex-Ryanair staff. For a long time, there was no way they would consider hiring people with no experience. Ryanair was one of the only players who were willing to take in inexperienced people (because they ran pay-to-fly programs). They allowed Ryanair to become the de facto entry point to the entire European industry. If Austrian Airlines (hypothetical example) will only hire staff that are experienced, and you can only get that experience at Ryanair...

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

And just that can lead to your conclusion?
How many workers are in the unions? How many European countries do have minimal wage/living wage? How does EU labour law fare with the rest of the world?

There are LCCs of course, and unfortunately the two English speaking EU states are providing a wide loop, but just like fast fashion, although it has a strong presence in our society, labour condition has been improving across the EU, and it's a journey of civilization, just like when they banned slavery back then, it wasn't because the model wasn't profitable. Now back to Lauda, the union has decided that working poverty is not acceptable, I wish them well. It's very cheap to have a go at them when the offer is below poverty line. Austria doesn't have official minimum wage, it relies on collective agreements which covers 99% workers and from 2020 the monthly minimum wage is increased to €1,500 for all sectors, FR's offer of €850 is beyond the pale, regrettable as it is in the aviation of VIE, it's far better to get rid of Lauda altogether, Malta based airlines flying to VIE will have less negative impact than local exploitation of labour condition.

Are you seriously that disillusioned to compare working for Lauda with slavery? First of all, most slaves were sold into slavery, they were not there by choice. Lauda/Ryanair employees willingly applied to work there all the while knowing what kind of business they were getting involved with. Personally I am happy they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned. Now thanks to the unions (which are generally useless) these people will have absolutely no income and who knows if they will manage to find an aviation job in the next five years. I guess you are right, having 300 extra unemployed in Vienna is better than having them work for FR.

As for Europe, Ryanair operates outside these two English speaking countries you referred to. Seems like it's not only their citizens who do not care but also workers' rights but also those in in Spain, Italy, France, Germoney, Poland, Greece... plus almost every airport out there wishes to have them, even FRA!

Nice trying twisting purpose of the slavery reference and moving goalpost. Your FR's customer number proving 'vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions' is the same logic as profitability and widely use of salary means vast majority of people wanted it.

What do you mean 'the union misled them'? You knew the internal communication?
Frankly those people won't give a damn if you are happy or not. But it's just cheap of anyone to have a go at people who choose not to accept such aggressive pay cut.
Austria is a welfare state and there is social umbrella in place, in Lauda case I suspect they'd have less money coming in if they accept FR's offer. And it's not like they will not be employed again, aviation or not. Like mentioned above, this is not USA or some poor countries where you couldn't afford quitting a shit job. Most western European countries' gross minimum wage are above €1500, in Vienna you just can't make ends meet with €850, better start looking for something else.

As long as Ryanair keeps on growing, as long as more people use them and as long as there are people applying to work for them you have no leg to stand on. I think you should realize that there is a difference between your wishful thinking and reality.

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Are you seriously that disillusioned to compare working for Lauda with slavery? First of all, most slaves were sold into slavery, they were not there by choice. Lauda/Ryanair employees willingly applied to work there all the while knowing what kind of business they were getting involved with. Personally I am happy they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned. Now thanks to the unions (which are generally useless) these people will have absolutely no income and who knows if they will manage to find an aviation job in the next five years. I guess you are right, having 300 extra unemployed in Vienna is better than having them work for FR.

As for Europe, Ryanair operates outside these two English speaking countries you referred to. Seems like it's not only their citizens who do not care but also workers' rights but also those in in Spain, Italy, France, Germoney, Poland, Greece... plus almost every airport out there wishes to have them, even FRA!

Nice trying twisting purpose of the slavery reference and moving goalpost. Your FR's customer number proving 'vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions' is the same logic as profitability and widely use of salary means vast majority of people wanted it.

What do you mean 'the union misled them'? You knew the internal communication?
Frankly those people won't give a damn if you are happy or not. But it's just cheap of anyone to have a go at people who choose not to accept such aggressive pay cut.
Austria is a welfare state and there is social umbrella in place, in Lauda case I suspect they'd have less money coming in if they accept FR's offer. And it's not like they will not be employed again, aviation or not. Like mentioned above, this is not USA or some poor countries where you couldn't afford quitting a shit job. Most western European countries' gross minimum wage are above €1500, in Vienna you just can't make ends meet with €850, better start looking for something else.

As long as Ryanair keeps on growing, as long as more people use them and as long as there are people applying to work for them you have no leg to stand on. I think you should realize that there is a difference between your wishful thinking and reality.

Mate surely it's you who's struggling to accept the reality that they said no to FR's gross offer, you literally thought many people would accept €850 wage and live in Vienna.

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Nice trying twisting purpose of the slavery reference and moving goalpost. Your FR's customer number proving 'vast majority of Europeans simply don't care about unions, salaries, work conditions' is the same logic as profitability and widely use of salary means vast majority of people wanted it.

What do you mean 'the union misled them'? You knew the internal communication?
Frankly those people won't give a damn if you are happy or not. But it's just cheap of anyone to have a go at people who choose not to accept such aggressive pay cut.
Austria is a welfare state and there is social umbrella in place, in Lauda case I suspect they'd have less money coming in if they accept FR's offer. And it's not like they will not be employed again, aviation or not. Like mentioned above, this is not USA or some poor countries where you couldn't afford quitting a shit job. Most western European countries' gross minimum wage are above €1500, in Vienna you just can't make ends meet with €850, better start looking for something else.

As long as Ryanair keeps on growing, as long as more people use them and as long as there are people applying to work for them you have no leg to stand on. I think you should realize that there is a difference between your wishful thinking and reality.

Mate surely it's you who's struggling to accept the reality that they said no to FR's gross offer, you literally thought many people would accept €850 wage and live in Vienna.

Only one who is struggling with anything here is you as you believe that people will actually care about work conditions at FR which will lead them to fly with their competition. FR forced them to refuse this offer because they wanted to get out of Vienna and Lauda by transferring to a lower cost base either in Malta, Poland or anywhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if FR actually becomes even more aggressive now.

Blerg wrote:

Personally I am happy they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned. Now thanks to the unions (which are generally useless) these people will have absolutely no income and who knows if they will manage to find an aviation job in the next five years.

Blerg wrote:

FR forced them to refuse this offer because they wanted to get out of Vienna and Lauda by transferring to a lower cost base either in Malta, Poland or anywhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if FR actually becomes even more aggressive now.

Are you the same person?

Straight from the PR handbook of FR themselves: always blame the unions, scare (ex-)workers to dead, and go from self-proclaimed victory to victory, even when you are pulling out....

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Personally I am happy they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned. Now thanks to the unions (which are generally useless) these people will have absolutely no income and who knows if they will manage to find an aviation job in the next five years.

Blerg wrote:

FR forced them to refuse this offer because they wanted to get out of Vienna and Lauda by transferring to a lower cost base either in Malta, Poland or anywhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if FR actually becomes even more aggressive now.

Are you the same person?

What's confusing about it? Ryanair gave them an offer they knew they were most likely going to turn down but even if they did accept then FR would not be at a loss. So for them it was a win-win situation either way you look at it. Personally, what I am still trying to understand is what point you are trying to make in this thread.

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Personally I am happy they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned. Now thanks to the unions (which are generally useless) these people will have absolutely no income and who knows if they will manage to find an aviation job in the next five years.

Blerg wrote:

FR forced them to refuse this offer because they wanted to get out of Vienna and Lauda by transferring to a lower cost base either in Malta, Poland or anywhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if FR actually becomes even more aggressive now.

Are you the same person?

What's confusing about it? Ryanair gave them an offer they knew they were most likely going to turn down but even if they did accept then FR would not be at a loss. So for them it was a win-win situation either way you look at it. Personally, what I am still trying to understand is what point you are trying to make in this thread.

- 'FR forced them to refuse this offer'
- 'they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned'
Logic is most interesting.

P.S. FR bled heavily on Lauda venture (€140m loss first year alone) and now they pull the plug in VIE to stop burning more cash, it's standard damage control at best, how is that a 'win-win' situation for FR?

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Are you the same person?

What's confusing about it? Ryanair gave them an offer they knew they were most likely going to turn down but even if they did accept then FR would not be at a loss. So for them it was a win-win situation either way you look at it. Personally, what I am still trying to understand is what point you are trying to make in this thread.

- 'FR forced them to refuse this offer'
- 'they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned'
Logic is most interesting.

P.S. FR bled heavily on Lauda venture (€140m loss first year alone) and now they pull the plug in VIE to stop burning more cash, it's standard damage control at best, how is that a 'win-win' situation for FR?

How is FR taking over the routes going to change that, given the fierce LCC competition in VIE?

marcogr12 wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

What's confusing about it? Ryanair gave them an offer they knew they were most likely going to turn down but even if they did accept then FR would not be at a loss. So for them it was a win-win situation either way you look at it. Personally, what I am still trying to understand is what point you are trying to make in this thread.

- 'FR forced them to refuse this offer'
- 'they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned'
Logic is most interesting.

P.S. FR bled heavily on Lauda venture (€140m loss first year alone) and now they pull the plug in VIE to stop burning more cash, it's standard damage control at best, how is that a 'win-win' situation for FR?

How is FR taking over the routes going to change that, given the fierce LCC competition in VIE?

Lower operating costs and Buzz and Malta Air and the option to now drop bad performing routes.

GLANKG wrote:

Blerg wrote:

GLANKG wrote:

Are you the same person?

What's confusing about it? Ryanair gave them an offer they knew they were most likely going to turn down but even if they did accept then FR would not be at a loss. So for them it was a win-win situation either way you look at it. Personally, what I am still trying to understand is what point you are trying to make in this thread.

- 'FR forced them to refuse this offer'
- 'they all got fired because their unions misled them and because they were disillusioned'
Logic is most interesting.

P.S. FR bled heavily on Lauda venture (€140m loss first year alone) and now they pull the plug in VIE to stop burning more cash, it's standard damage control at best, how is that a 'win-win' situation for FR?

Well they did give them an offer they hoped and expected would be refused. Don't see what's not to understand. I am still waiting for your claraficiation on what's the point you are trying to make.

As for VIE, they are not pulling the plug, they are merely shifting their operations to a lower cost base. This will make them even more competitive against airlines like OS.