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Flightsimboy
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 22, 2020 10:58 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
AR385 wrote:
fpetrutiu wrote:

Fuel fumes are more explosive than the fuel itself (TWA800). I would say yes.


It would also depend what they hit on the ground.


To be fair I do not know a lot about housing in Karachi or Pakistan in general but how do most Households cook?

If it is with gas then that could also be the cause of the fire and flames


Cooking is only with Gas stoves. Electric stoves are unheard of.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 22, 2020 11:20 pm

Perhaps the engines clipped a fence, wall, or whatever, and not the ground?
 
pecevanne
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 22, 2020 11:24 pm

They were flying at that time in direct law.
See the very high angle of attack.
Sure, no power available at that time.
A friend, Pakistaní Pilot told me the aircraft hold for about 43 minutes before first approach.
 
sadde
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 22, 2020 11:28 pm

How you could deduce that the plane ran out of fuel after seeing the damage to the cowlings and the plane obviously in the air subsequently is beyond me. Botched go-around if I had to guess. Overly eager gear retraction prior to positive rate of climb.
 
NASBWI
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 22, 2020 11:42 pm

sadde wrote:
How you could deduce that the plane ran out of fuel after seeing the damage to the cowlings and the plane obviously in the air subsequently is beyond me. Botched go-around if I had to guess. Overly eager gear retraction prior to positive rate of climb.


Not always, but usually, a crash where a botched go-around is to blame usually occurs on airport property as the plane is trying to regain lift (I’m thinking specifically of the FlyDubai and China Airlines incidents) In this case, the plane had already executed the go-around and was in the process of landing. Perhaps the A320 didn’t run out of all of its fuel, but instead lost oil (which may explain some of the charred-looking area of the nacelles), which in turn caused the engines to seize at a crucial moment in its phase of flight.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
cat3appr50
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 22, 2020 11:48 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Draw a straight line along the angle of attack at the area suspected of being the engine striking the runway. The fuselage would have struck the ground just aft of the wing. Not to mention the nacelle would probably been ripped off. Fishy.


TVNWZ, my thoughts exactly. No marks on the tail underside given the marks and staining on the engines and that pesky angle. Remarkable. .
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 12:10 am

cat3appr50 wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
Draw a straight line along the angle of attack at the area suspected of being the engine striking the runway. The fuselage would have struck the ground just aft of the wing. Not to mention the nacelle would probably been ripped off. Fishy.


TVNWZ, my thoughts exactly. No marks on the tail underside given the marks and staining on the engines and that pesky angle. Remarkable. .


Just be sure the soot marks aren't interfering with judging the damage angle. Damage looks kinda flat to me on #2 engine?
 
hivue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 12:42 am

pecevanne wrote:
They were flying at that time in direct law.


How do you know that?

pecevanne wrote:
See the very high angle of attack.


I see a high pitch attitude. If the airplane was in Normal Law it would not be at stall AoA. That rapid sink rate would be due to no/very little power from either engine.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
acavpics
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 12:48 am

Could this be something like EK521 in which pilots relied on TOGA after wheels had already touched the ground, rendering the TOGA ineffective?
 
hivue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 12:49 am

sadde wrote:
How you could deduce that the plane ran out of fuel after seeing the damage to the cowlings and the plane obviously in the air subsequently is beyond me. Botched go-around if I had to guess. Overly eager gear retraction prior to positive rate of climb.


Overly eager gear retraction means the gear was down. How would the cowlings get damaged during landing with the gear down?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
hivue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 12:50 am

acavpics wrote:
Could this be something like EK521 in which pilots relied on TOGA after wheels had already touched the ground, rendering the TOGA ineffective?


What accounts for the cowling damage (both cowlings) if the gear was down?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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Moose135
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 12:55 am

hivue wrote:
Overly eager gear retraction means the gear was down. How would the cowlings get damaged during landing with the gear down?

They started a go around, retracted the gear before insuring a positive rate of climb, the aircraft continued to descend, and the engines scraped the runway.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
hivue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:04 am

Moose135 wrote:
hivue wrote:
Overly eager gear retraction means the gear was down. How would the cowlings get damaged during landing with the gear down?

They started a go around, retracted the gear before insuring a positive rate of climb, the aircraft continued to descend, and the engines scraped the runway.


There is an aural gear warning (ding ding ding) at some point on the ATC recording. My understanding is that it is a gear failed warning and not a routine gear not down warning but I may be wrong. Are they the same warning on the A320?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:54 am

Evidence seems to say
1. High approach to the runway required flight idle to flare point, which resulted in...
2. A poorly executed go-around, both late and from a dangerous aircraft state (high rate of descent, engines at idle, late decision to reject the landing) which precipitated...
3. The aircraft to contact the runway, after both power levers were advanced (but slowly spooling up) and gear was selected "up" before a positive rate was indicated.
4. That the engines allowed a substantial climb during the go-around indicates that the compressor-turbine spools were not fatally affected which allowed them to continue to develop power, but...
5. The accessory section of the engine, having been compromised, presumably on the runway, created a number of possibilities that would ultimately shut down the engines from a controller point of view, rather than a mechanical one (loss of oil, running out of fuel, etc).
6. From the tapes it seems as though both engines quit nearly simultaneously, which would suggest a loss of signal event (engine controller) triggering shutdown.
7. The fact that there was a large fire after impact suggests there was a significant amount of fuel on board, which would rule out not having fuel remaining.

FWIW, based on the admittedly early and scant evidence.
 
alitis
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 2:25 am

About those black streaks on the bottom of the engines, at 25 sec into the clip, there's a still shot (probably lifted from a.net) that shows similar black streaks on the bottom of the engines from what probably is a pic form a routine flight. Cant make out the reg though.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/official-pak ... 36443.html
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 2:37 am

alitis wrote:
About those black streaks on the bottom of the engines, at 25 sec into the clip, there's a still shot (probably lifted from a.net) that shows similar black streaks on the bottom of the engines from what probably is a pic form a routine flight. Cant make out the reg though.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/official-pak ... 36443.html


They are nothing like what we see in the incident photo though, imo.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 74afa6.jpg
 
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DocLightning
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 2:43 am

889091 wrote:

Gearbox, lubrication systems, alternator...double flameout due to lack of lubrication?


So with oil leak, you'd expect flame-out in 5-10 minutes, right?
-Doc Lightning-

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maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 2:51 am

My summary-
Not related to covid shutdown as this plane had 7 prior flights to this accident
The plane had a alarm go off warning that wheels were not locked properly but ignored it as a false alarm during 1st attempt.
On touchdown, the physical feedback indicated to him that the wheels were actually not down and he initiated abort landing.
But the engines had impacted the runway by that time and both engines had leaked lubrication oil/hydraulic oil due to damage.
He managed to reach 5000 ft for another attempt at landing but the engines gave way a few seconds before the crash.
His last moment mayday and normal tone indicates that he was unaware that the plane might not make it.
The 3 to 4 stories houses near the airport probably caught the bottom of the plane and he realized the danger very late.
Now since no formal investigation reports of the last 3 crashes in Pakistan in the last 10 years have been released , I don't have high Hopes of any transparency in this accident.
If he scrapped the bottom of the plane, the ATC or other airport officials should have commented by now on the sparks generated or damage to the runway . But nothing from them.
Problem is that many institutions try to mitigate reputation damage and the reports are censored or biased.
Below is the wheel lock warning system for a A320.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Jj758A-hRx

Also see this pakistani report on educational qualifications of their pilots. Not passed 10th class even with bogus certificates.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1454236

Systemic failures.
 
pecevanne
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 3:01 am

hivue wrote:
pecevanne wrote:
They were flying at that time in direct law.


How do you know that?

pecevanne wrote:
See the very high angle of attack.


I see a high pitch attitude. If the airplane was in Normal Law it would not be at stall AoA. That rapid sink rate would be due to no/very little power from either engine.

A-320;with 2 engines out, loses Hyd G+Y then the aircraft reverts to alternate law until the landing gear is down, Once the gear is down the aircraft reverts to direct law.
)
 
Aviationguy96
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 4:02 am

It's kinda scary, I flew on AP-BLD when it was still registered as B-6017 with China Eastern back in 2012 if i remember correctly, such a tragedy.
 
F9Animal
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 4:37 am

I have yet to see any news reports that the plane was damaged from a prior attempt at landing. Has Pakistan released anything in regards to this? Also, wouldn't the airport have some CCTV that might show the suspected damage made from the previous go around?

And with THE RAT, that means they likely had zero engine power. Would be curious to know if there also was evidence of damage on the runway too. Any idea how long it takes Pakistan to come out with some possible preliminary info?

One news agency said something about the nose Gear? After doing a quick search, I noticed that if the nose Gear did collapse or not come down, the engines will indeed scrape across the ground.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 6:23 am

acavpics wrote:
Could this be something like EK521 in which pilots relied on TOGA after wheels had already touched the ground, rendering the TOGA ineffective?


Airbus doesn't work that way. On Airbus, if you set TOGA, autothrust is disengaged and thus cannot roll back the thrust. Thrust can only be reduced by moving the thrust levers back.

The only action needed to get TOGA on Airbus is thrust levers full forward to the TOGA detent. On Boeing, on the other hand, there is the added wrinkle of the TOGA buttons. If the thrust levers are pushed full forward but the TOGA buttons are not pressed, autothrust can still roll back the thrust. Which is what happened on EK521.

If you set TOGA after the wheels have touched down, the spoilers also retract automatically because logically it will be a rejected landing (go-around after touchdown).
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
syan
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 6:25 am

As others have mentioned, this seems to have some similarities with the SmartLynx crash in 2018. In this crash, they retracted the gear but couldn't climb so the aircraft bounced off the runway, with the gear doors and engines touching the runway. They lost both engines soon after, one from fire and the other from stuck N2 rotor and seized accessory gearbox. So it is definitely possible that they lost both engines from scraping along the runway.
 
VV
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 7:41 am

They have recovered the DFDR and CVR.

If they can read the content then the investigation should progress relatively quickly.
 
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scbriml
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 7:49 am

LTC8K6 wrote:
alitis wrote:
About those black streaks on the bottom of the engines, at 25 sec into the clip, there's a still shot (probably lifted from a.net) that shows similar black streaks on the bottom of the engines from what probably is a pic form a routine flight. Cant make out the reg though.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/official-pak ... 36443.html


They are nothing like what we see in the incident photo though, imo.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 74afa6.jpg


Plus the pictures in that report are not even A320s. Sadly typical poor journalism when it comes to aviation. :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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VV
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 7:59 am

Whatever the explanation or the speculation is, the aircraft went down.

Since the black boxes are recovered, I guess they will be able to understand the series of events quite quickly.
 
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flee
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 8:03 am

sadde wrote:
How you could deduce that the plane ran out of fuel after seeing the damage to the cowlings and the plane obviously in the air subsequently is beyond me. Botched go-around if I had to guess. Overly eager gear retraction prior to positive rate of climb.

I am wondering why there is no sign of impact with the runway on the fuselage. Also did the airport inspect the runway, post go around?
 
manan262
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 10:07 am

The engines failed too
 
889091
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 10:13 am

DocLightning wrote:
889091 wrote:

Gearbox, lubrication systems, alternator...double flameout due to lack of lubrication?


So with oil leak, you'd expect flame-out in 5-10 minutes, right?


No idea Doc. I suppose it would very much depend on the size of the hole that caused the leak in the first place...

I don't think any of the manufacturers test for this scenario on the test rig - shooting chickens to test fan blade ingestion, yes, but draining all the lubrication out of the engine whilst at TOGA thrust and seeing how long it runs, would surely kill the engine.

I would assume that Airbus' QRH will ask the pilots to perform a IFSD with a low oil pressure warning. Starlionblue/Zeke, is that correct?

How many times were they reported to have performed a missed approach after the initial 'engine scrape'? I am surprised the engines lasted that long to be honest.....
 
by738
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 10:23 am

flee wrote:
I am wondering why there is no sign of impact with the runway on the fuselage

I can't work out what the black linear mark under the tail plane midline on rear fuselage represents. Doesn't seem to relate to the starboard horiz stabilizer.
 
MigPilot
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 10:44 am

Juan Browne's analysis, which comes to the conclusion that the cockpit alarm which can be heard in the ATP recording during first approach is the gear warning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwfkN5M-bSY
 
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giosue61
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 10:56 am

Interesting recollection from one of the survivors, mr. Zubair, as reported by geo.tv

“When asked how much time had passed between the two descent attempts, the survivor put the estimate between 10 and 15 minutes. He said that when the second attempt to land was being made, the plane crashed two to three minutes after the landing announcement.”

It seems that, after the first attempt, they have been around for a much longer time.

And

“Zubair said that the passengers had no inkling they would crash. "The way things were handled, it seemed we would just make a routine landing."

No safety announcements? So no emergency detected/in place during the first “routine” landing?
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 11:23 am

This video shows the last seconds. You can see that it was in landing configuration and flying slowly with a nose up attitude. It almost looked like a normal landing, except that it was in the wrong place:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxm6d-RDba4
 
XRAYretired
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 11:24 am

It would seem that many posters are recognising that there is a severe limitation, at this time, on information available, but as usual, try to pronounce conclusions based on the information available being both correct and total. For instance, that the first landing attempt is the start of the event.

It may well be the first landing attempt but I would offer not the first approach Suggest first approach was abandoned because pilots could not get gear lock (overflew airstrip at 200+ ft. - witness report).

Further I would suggest it is likely that the a/c then took up a holding pattern to diagnose the problem, including contacting technical support. They may well have cycled to LG a couple of times and even tried a gravity release and manoeuvres to try and get a lock. But they are of course time limited by fuel. (a/c circled for perhaps 30mins - witness report). A plan likely would have been formulated and the airport/ATC likely would have been involved and aware.

Suggest the first part of this plan would be attempted landing coming in with relatively high energy with gear down and prepared to go around if the MLG did not hold. As it transpires, there is apparently evidence that the nacelles impacted the runway during this attempt probably because the MLG did not hold (juddering before nacelles touchdown possible evidence of MLG folding - surviving passenger), and go-around was applied.

Suggest the second element to this plan would likely have been then to do a belly landing (gear up). I would offer that there is second part since continuing the first landing with unlocked gear dangling would potentially be much more severe than a belly landing with gear up (ATC was apparently expecting a second attempt with gear up - leaked ATC comms.).

It has been commented that the crew apparently ignored warnings/chimes that are present
via the ATC comms. This would have been precisely the plan -to attempt to land without gear lock confirmed.

Loss of both engines due to damage or fuel starvation during go-around would appear to both be plausible to me.

Suggest if gear up belly landing was the second part of the plan, this would have gone out of window with loss of engines. Captain was probably aware that he was not going to make the threshold and elected to lower the gear to provide some cushion when landing short but the extra drag took them down even sooner.

My best go at the moment and subject to further information becoming available. But far to soon for the 'dumb ass foreign pilot' rhetoric.

Ray
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 11:30 am

Another video of the landing. It looks like a normal landing, with gear down and an AoA consistent with a regular approach. Looks like flaps up, though, but it's hard to tell.

https://www.reddit.com/r/aircrashinvest ... 303_crash/

Thoughts to the victims and their families.
Last flown aircraft: E195 OE-LWE < DH8D OE-LGI < A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117 < B772 N794AN < A320 D-AIPS
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 11:35 am

Here you can see the last few seconds more clearly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxm6d-RDba4
 
PlaneGeek22
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 11:38 am

https://www.aeronewsx.com/post/updated- ... ar-karachi

Devastating crash. My thoughts are with everyone affected.
 
VSMUT
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 11:40 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Another video of the landing. It looks like a normal landing, with gear down and an AoA consistent with a regular approach. Looks like flaps up, though, but it's hard to tell.

https://www.reddit.com/r/aircrashinvest ... 303_crash/


Are we certain that this is the same flight and not just people confusing it with another flight landing at roughly the same time?
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 11:55 am

VSMUT wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Another video of the landing. It looks like a normal landing, with gear down and an AoA consistent with a regular approach. Looks like flaps up, though, but it's hard to tell.

https://www.reddit.com/r/aircrashinvest ... 303_crash/


Are we certain that this is the same flight and not just people confusing it with another flight landing at roughly the same time?


Not sure, but it claims to be of the same aircraft. Might not be, though.
Last flown aircraft: E195 OE-LWE < DH8D OE-LGI < A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117 < B772 N794AN < A320 D-AIPS
 
Draken21fx
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 12:04 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:
Out of curiosity if the gear was not down and the plane did impact the runway wouldnt:

a. We have pics of the runway itself (especially seeing that the passenger list already leaked)?
b. Have some more damage on the fuselage especially towards the rear of the plane (potentially tail strike as it tries to go around)?
c. At what point does the RAT deploy?
d. Also I do understand that engines are not designed to take that kind of impact but can an engine expert comment which part of the engine is most likely to be damaged with an impact like that?
e. What kind warnings does a 320 have in case you try to land gear up?


a. I have not seen any pics of the runway itself, but I assume it's only going to be a matter of time.
b. I don't know why there isn't any damage, I agree with your claim that there should be, possibly a very shallow nose up go around???
c. Quick google search says it deploys if all aircraft electrical power is lost at a speed of greater than 100kts for an A320
d. Not only engine damage, but if bad luck is also a factor, FOD?? But the engine definitely got a rattle if it hit the ground at landing speed, maybe enough of a jolt to damage the compressor (it looks like the marks are in/around that area)
e. This has been answered a few posts above mine

My layman-is guess is that somehow it landed without any gear, resulting in both engines striking the ground. At this point, they decided to go around, but with a shallow climb. Due to damage to the engines when it hit the ground and/or ingestion of FOD they failed. The RAT deployed while they were climbing out on their remaining momentum, then eventually it stalled and there was nothing they could do.

EDIT: I just saw the video with gear down. I am stumped for now


Thank you all for the answers.

Regarding b. can someone smarter than me estimate the angle needed in order to scrape the engines only and not the tail? Would such a low number be even realistic, even to the most experienced pilot, when you are in a TOGA situation with all alarms buzzing around you?
 
MigPilot
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:05 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
It would seem that many posters are recognising that there is a severe limitation, at this time, on information available, but as usual, try to pronounce conclusions based on the information available being both correct and total. For instance, that the first landing attempt is the start of the event.

It may well be the first landing attempt but I would offer not the first approach Suggest first approach was abandoned because pilots could not get gear lock (overflew airstrip at 200+ ft. - witness report).

Further I would suggest it is likely that the a/c then took up a holding pattern to diagnose the problem, including contacting technical support. They may well have cycled to LG a couple of times and even tried a gravity release and manoeuvres to try and get a lock. But they are of course time limited by fuel. (a/c circled for perhaps 30mins - witness report). A plan likely would have been formulated and the airport/ATC likely would have been involved and aware.

Suggest the first part of this plan would be attempted landing coming in with relatively high energy with gear down and prepared to go around if the MLG did not hold. As it transpires, there is apparently evidence that the nacelles impacted the runway during this attempt probably because the MLG did not hold (juddering before nacelles touchdown possible evidence of MLG folding - surviving passenger), and go-around was applied.

Suggest the second element to this plan would likely have been then to do a belly landing (gear up). I would offer that there is second part since continuing the first landing with unlocked gear dangling would potentially be much more severe than a belly landing with gear up (ATC was apparently expecting a second attempt with gear up - leaked ATC comms.).

It has been commented that the crew apparently ignored warnings/chimes that are present
via the ATC comms. This would have been precisely the plan -to attempt to land without gear lock confirmed.

Loss of both engines due to damage or fuel starvation during go-around would appear to both be plausible to me.

Suggest if gear up belly landing was the second part of the plan, this would have gone out of window with loss of engines. Captain was probably aware that he was not going to make the threshold and elected to lower the gear to provide some cushion when landing short but the extra drag took them down even sooner.

My best go at the moment and subject to further information becoming available. But far to soon for the 'dumb ass foreign pilot' rhetoric.

Ray


There was no 200ft low pass, holding pattern etc. There were two landing attempts, with the issue arising after the first. Given that 6 minutes after the first botched attempt the plane crashed, fuel starvation seems unlikely.

Image
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/paki ... r-karachi/
 
sprxUSA
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:12 pm

Flew thru flock of birds before last landing attempt...?
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
VV
Posts: 1704
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:13 pm

Since they have the black boxes, we will know what really happened soon.
 
787SIN
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:00 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:13 pm

Sadly if the pictures of the engine scrape damage are right the aircraft is likely to have been terminally damaged after contact with the runway.

As both engines could have suffered extensive damage to the main gearboxes as on the CFM56-5B its on the bottom of the fan case.

Damage gearboxes would render both IDGs (rat deploy on loss of AC 1 and AC 2 buses), both hydraulic pumps, both dedicated alternators for the FADECs and both HP fuel pumps inop. Then also the fuel and hyd lines may have been compromised to for the Green and Yellow systems.
Last edited by 787SIN on Sat May 23, 2020 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
by738
Posts: 3095
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:15 pm

sprxUSA wrote:
Flew thru flock of birds before last landing attempt...?

Would think to shut down both engines that amount of birds would be noticeable to pilots so might be mentioned on CVR. Of the ones caught on film have often had burnt trailing smoke too.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:21 pm

F9Animal wrote:
I have yet to see any news reports that the plane was damaged from a prior attempt at landing. Has Pakistan released anything in regards to this? Also, wouldn't the airport have some CCTV that might show the suspected damage made from the previous go around?

And with THE RAT, that means they likely had zero engine power. Would be curious to know if there also was evidence of damage on the runway too. Any idea how long it takes Pakistan to come out with some possible preliminary info?

One news agency said something about the nose Gear? After doing a quick search, I noticed that if the nose Gear did collapse or not come down, the engines will indeed scrape across the ground.


Well, in the photos with the engine damage, the nose looks pristine.

Avherald has some updates now. Witnesses reporting sparks on the first landing attempt.

I'm beginning to think they just forgot to lower the gear on the first landing attempt, so they attempted a belly landing.
This belly landing attempt was too far down the runway and was aborted with engine strikes.
An attempted and aborted belly landing explains the lack of nose and tail strike damage, I think.

The second attempt seems to show the gear down, so presumably some gear lowering method did work.

The crew doesn't seem to have ever reported any trouble until they finally say they lost the engines.
The controller mentions a "belly landing", but I have not heard the crew say anything about hitting the runway.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:23 pm

sprxUSA wrote:
Flew thru flock of birds before last landing attempt...?



You don't think the engine damage is a sufficient explanation for engine failure? They must have ingested a lot of FOD as well.

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hivue
Posts: 2076
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:26 pm

MigPilot wrote:
There were two landing attempts, with the issue arising after the first.


There was an issue with the first attempt as well. Otherwise only one attempt would have been required.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
YOWVIEWER
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:45 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:27 pm

I often watch aircraft taxiing around and notice there is very little clearance between the bottom of the engine and the ground. In this accident, I relate back to the Air Canada DC-8 in Toronto July 05, 1970 when a disagreement between the Captain & First Officer resulted in the manual deployment of the spoilers while still 60 feet in the air. This resulted in a hard landing and go-around was declared. Unfortunately too much damage on the initial hard landing and the DC-8 crashed several minutes later. Is there a chance the spoilers might have deployed a few seconds early, and the hard landing occurred which scraped the bottom of the engines and the decision was made to go around and try again ? Any chance of this happening on an A320 ?
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat May 23, 2020 1:33 pm

It's just more bizarre the more I learn about it.

The passengers apparently were not told anything about preparing for a belly landing or a crash landing, if we are to believe the report of one survivor.
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