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Aesma
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:43 am

889091 wrote:
Rev, that's the million dollar question here - did they forget to lower the gears or was it a case of premature raising of the gear....

Assuming the latter, the gear doors would be mashed up, wouldn't they?


If they raised it at no altitude yes, but if they had still some feets of altitude, the gear could have retracted without impact. Maybe also caused some drag (with the doors), just enough for the aircraft to then lose that altitude and contact the runway.

Basically if things had gone slightly differently the outcome could have been better, either with the aircraft belly landing on the first try, or bouncing on the gear instead of the engines.

I'd still like to see a reconstruction (or a video if one exists) of the aircraft scraping its engines, and only its engines, along the runway.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Guillaume787
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:55 am

Aesma wrote:
I'd still like to see a reconstruction (or a video if one exists) of the aircraft scraping its engines, and only its engines, along the runway.


Anyone knows if the airport in Karachi has CCTV cameras facing the runways similar to NRT or SVO? If so, I’m sure such video footage exists and is been analyzed.
 
wjcandee
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:03 am

So at a minimum this may have been caused by crap CRM.

Saying "we are comfortable" when you're waaaaay outside the slot means that that 17000 hours flying experience made the captain think that his superhuman flying skills allowed him to ignore the Company's rules, and if there wasn't a rule about a stable approach being a requirement, then that's on the airline.

Everything else that happened would seem to derive from that fundamental error, made early-on in the accident sequence.

Could a guy that experienced land the plane no problem in that situation in most circumstances? Of course, but there's a reason you have rules about stable approaches, because it shouldn't be up to him to shave off a bunch of safety just 'cause he wants to get home on time.
 
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zeke
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:36 am

Looking at the latest avherald update http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0

“On May 24th 2020 Pakistan's media quote a CAA official speaking on condition of anonymity that the aircraft made two attempts to land. During the first approach it appears the landing gear was still retracted when the aircraft neared the runway, the pilot had not indicated any anomaly or emergency, emergency services thus did not respond and did not foam the runway as would be done in case of a gear malfunction. The marks on the runway between 4500 feet and 7000 feet down the runway suggest the engines made contact with the runway surface, it is possible that the engines were damaged during that contact with the runway surface leading even to possibly fire.

On May 24th 2020 a spokesman of the airline said, the landing gear had not been (partially or fully) lowered prior to the first touch down. The crew did not call out the standard operating procedures for an anomaly and no emergency was declared. Most likely the crew was not mentally prepared for a belly landing and went around when they realized the engines were scraping the runway.”

Below 750 ft the aircraft would have been giving them giving them multiple aural and visual cues that the gear was not down.

I cannot fathom how anyone could do that purposefully.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:48 am

Aesma wrote:
889091 wrote:
Rev, that's the million dollar question here - did they forget to lower the gears or was it a case of premature raising of the gear....

Assuming the latter, the gear doors would be mashed up, wouldn't they?


If they raised it at no altitude yes, but if they had still some feets of altitude, the gear could have retracted without impact. Maybe also caused some drag (with the doors), just enough for the aircraft to then lose that altitude and contact the runway.

Basically if things had gone slightly differently the outcome could have been better, either with the aircraft belly landing on the first try, or bouncing on the gear instead of the engines.

I'd still like to see a reconstruction (or a video if one exists) of the aircraft scraping its engines, and only its engines, along the runway.


cycle time is waaaaaaaay to long
you cant touch-cycle gear- contact runway - lift off again
without damaging the doors

i personaly think the general energy state after a initial touch down is too low to every left the runway again
if you touch down & cycle .... you stay on the runway anyway
 
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Aesma
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:59 am

So it seems confirmed now that they just didn't lower the gear at all, incredible !

About a rule on unstable approaches. There is usually a rule about reporting screwups with the expectation that you won't be punished (does PIA have that rule ?) in the interest of safety. What about an exception to that rule, that you will face consequences if you continue with an unstable approach (for both pilots) ? And no consequence if you go around.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
pugman211
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 11:43 am

Erm, is it just me or when you look at the photos on AVH, the second photo shows a black line where the gear door is? It looks consistent with the black line on the engine nacelle as well.
 
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Polot
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 11:51 am

pugman211 wrote:
Erm, is it just me or when you look at the photos on AVH, the second photo shows a black line where the gear door is? It looks consistent with the black line on the engine nacelle as well.

That is the RAT. The “black line” Is the opening to the RAT storage compartment.
 
morrisond
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 12:16 pm

Aesma wrote:
So it seems confirmed now that they just didn't lower the gear at all, incredible !

About a rule on unstable approaches. There is usually a rule about reporting screwups with the expectation that you won't be punished (does PIA have that rule ?) in the interest of safety. What about an exception to that rule, that you will face consequences if you continue with an unstable approach (for both pilots) ? And no consequence if you go around.


The ironic thing is that if they really knew what they were doing they would have deployed the gear as soon as possible to help slow the aircraft and get it down faster so they didn't touch down 4,500' from the threshold.

How did ECAM help them in this circumstance?

Back to practising basic Pilot skills.
 
avier
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 1:09 pm

Aesma wrote:
So it seems confirmed now that they just didn't lower the gear at all, incredible !

That would then make it the second such accident at PIA due to same reason - of forgetting to lower the landing gear.
I'd imagine they'd have learnt from their previous incident of the 747 landing on belly due to pilot forgetting to lower the landing gear. That should have been a checklist grilled into their training to avoid such a repetition.

Also, many users here can't seem to "believe" this to be the reason. Can't understand their reasoning for their beliefs.
 
Saintor
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 1:10 pm

Aesma wrote:
So it seems confirmed now that they just didn't lower the gear at all, incredible !


Almost inconceivable ... yet it happened before ...with the same company.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19860204-0
https://historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm

Image
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 1:25 pm

morrisond wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So it seems confirmed now that they just didn't lower the gear at all, incredible !

About a rule on unstable approaches. There is usually a rule about reporting screwups with the expectation that you won't be punished (does PIA have that rule ?) in the interest of safety. What about an exception to that rule, that you will face consequences if you continue with an unstable approach (for both pilots) ? And no consequence if you go around.


The ironic thing is that if they really knew what they were doing they would have deployed the gear as soon as possible to help slow the aircraft and get it down faster so they didn't touch down 4,500' from the threshold.

How did ECAM help them in this circumstance?

Back to practising basic Pilot skills.


Good point. If you want to "slow down and come down" at low altitude and low speed, the gear is way better than the speedbrakes.

The speedbrakes are not very effective for slowing the plane down at approach speeds, especially below 200 knots. If you're on the glideslope and the thing won't slow down, call "gear down".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
by738
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 1:38 pm

those runway images now are pretty conclusive... maybe when they realised (assuming not a gear mechanical failure) they were too embarrassed to just complete a belly landing to stop and would explain perhaps why the gear (on the hi res video) suddenly have appeared...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 1:38 pm

Saintor wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So it seems confirmed now that they just didn't lower the gear at all, incredible !


Almost inconceivable ... yet it happened before ...with the same company.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19860204-0
https://historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm

Image


And there was three crew at the front end there.
 
VSMUT
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 1:44 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Good point. If you want to "slow down and come down" at low altitude and low speed, the gear is way better than the speedbrakes.

The speedbrakes are not very effective for slowing the plane down at approach speeds, especially below 200 knots. If you're on the glideslope and the thing won't slow down, call "gear down".


Or just break off the approach from a safe level and try again.
 
pugman211
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 2:17 pm

Polot wrote:
pugman211 wrote:
Erm, is it just me or when you look at the photos on AVH, the second photo shows a black line where the gear door is? It looks consistent with the black line on the engine nacelle as well.

That is the RAT. The “black line” Is the opening to the RAT storage compartment.


Of course yes! I knew something was off as the gear doors are further aft.

Cheers
 
SEA
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 2:18 pm

wjcandee wrote:
So at a minimum this may have been caused by crap CRM.

Saying "we are comfortable" when you're waaaaay outside the slot means that that 17000 hours flying experience made the captain think that his superhuman flying skills allowed him to ignore the Company's rules, and if there wasn't a rule about a stable approach being a requirement, then that's on the airline.

Everything else that happened would seem to derive from that fundamental error, made early-on in the accident sequence.

Could a guy that experienced land the plane no problem in that situation in most circumstances? Of course, but there's a reason you have rules about stable approaches, because it shouldn't be up to him to shave off a bunch of safety just 'cause he wants to get home on time.


I fear you are 100% correct. They put themselves in a high workload situation with no reason. And ironically had they utilized the gear to rectify their own unstable approach they could have avoided all of this.
 
 
jwjsamster
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 2:44 pm

This appears to be incredibly poor airmanship, with this kind of accident occurring I'm surprised that countries aren't banning PIA from their airspace and Pakistan isn't reviewing its training practices.

The only reason I could see this happening is that the crew would have pulled a breaker to turn off that warning or that warning happened to fail. Even then the crew will still not have followed their checklists and missed that they didn't put the landing gear down. I'm also guessing that there might have been a power dynamic in cockpit not allowing the first officer to speak up.

Anyway just my 0.02$, not an expert of course.
 
by738
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 2:57 pm

 
AT
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 2:59 pm

Now that the engine marks have been identified on the runway the events are really not much in question, only the factors that led to them. It's so easy to say "if only they had ...." and I wish they had just stayed the course with the first botched landing. The loss would likely have been restricted the aircraft. But who knows how the mind and the reflexes work in high stress situations like these. And loss of life is loss of life, regardless of who or what was at fault.
 
fpetrutiu
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 3:56 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
AR385 wrote:
fpetrutiu wrote:

Fuel fumes are more explosive than the fuel itself (TWA800). I would say yes.


It would also depend what they hit on the ground.


To be fair I do not know a lot about housing in Karachi or Pakistan in general but how do most Households cook?

If it is with gas then that could also be the cause of the fire and flames

I am going to go out on a lomb here, but batteries on board any aircraft contain enough juice to cause a spark during a crash, not to mention the metal fuselage against rocks. I don't think there is any question on sources of ignition or if the exist during a crash. A small spark inside a fuel tank filled with fuel vapor is enough for a fireball.

All I am saying that a fireball is not necessarily indicating presence of fuel in the tanks. A sustained fuel fire afterward does (does not seem to be the case here).
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 4:47 pm

There would probably be engine oil on the runway if the oil lines had been severed and oil was being pumped out.

Fuel as well, but that would evaporate rather fast.
 
o0OOO0oChris
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 5:28 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
There would probably be engine oil on the runway if the oil lines had been severed and oil was being pumped out.

Fuel as well, but that would evaporate rather fast.

And hydraulic oil too. And if you look at the runway mark video, I think the irregular shapes around them could very well be fluid spill.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 5:52 pm

I called forgetting gear down a couple of days ago, but, no one seemed to take me seriously....
Anyway, what’s even more astonishing , is that they managed to scrape the aircraft for around 2500ft Along a runway, on its two motors, and then take off again.... Totally mind blowing decision making.!!!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 5:52 pm

Those dark marks are not just scraping, they are either oil/hydraylic fluid, or burn marks from the leaks and parts from the engine burning away.
 
ratp101
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 6:02 pm

In the runway video there appear to be interruptions in the marks, as if the plane had bounced up, then down, before taking-off again...
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 6:04 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
I called forgetting gear down a couple of days ago, but, no one seemed to take me seriously....
Anyway, what’s even more astonishing , is that they managed to scrape the aircraft for around 2500ft Along a runway, on its two motors, and then take off again.... Totally mind blowing decision making.!!!


The only other possibility I can see is that they had the gear down initially, but then raised the gear before they got down near the runway, and then allowed the plane to sink so low that the engines dragged along the pavement.

That would explain the lack of any other damage on the bottom of the plane. No nose damage and no MLG door damage.

In other words, they decided to raise the gear as the plane was descending, but the plane was still high enough to allow the gear to cycle fully before it sank low enough that the engines began to slide along the ground.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 6:09 pm

ratp101 wrote:
In the runway video there appear to be interruptions in the marks, as if the plane had bounced up, then down, before taking-off again...


Yes it appears they were scraping along the ground and bounced up at least once.

Must have been quite a sight to witnesses.
 
cbphoto
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:05 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
CPHGuard wrote:
Is it even possible to forget to lower the gear on the A320-series?
It just seems so unlikely.

I'm not a commercial pilot, but I would expect a cascade of "TOO LOW - GEAR" & "TOO LOW - TERRAIN" warnings when they approached the runway?
No workload would IMHO make a pilot ignore warnings like that, since I expect you don't get them many times in your flying career?

I guess Airbus pilots can comment on this?


While I would agree that ignoring everything that should have been blaring at them, plus actually forgetting in the first place, plus calling "landing no blue" (which includes the gear) during the landing checklist when it wasn't actually the case, seems rather improbable. But you'd be surprised how the brain can filter out important information when you are under pressure. It is quite extraordinary.

Unstable approaches, as this one seems to have been, are particularly insidious in this regard. There is a very strong urge to continue when you should go around. This urge, coupled with the stress of the situation, dramatically lowers situational awareness and strengthens confirmation bias.


Example of the brain playing weird tricks: Remembering a clearance to land. You'd think pilots would not forget receiving such an important thing, but sometimes we do. Flying as PF, I'll have heard the clearance to land, and verbally confirmed it. Then one minute later at 800 feet or something, I'll start doubting myself and ask the PM. And even though he is absolutely certain we got it, he'll confirm with tower. This is why many Airbus pilots start the chrono when they get landing clearance. Just as a little reminder,

No one involved finds this weird because we all know that the brain plays tricks on us. Many actions are so ingrained that we can forget having done them. Which is why we have crosschecks, systems that check us, procedures...

Nitpick: You would not get "TOO LOW! TERRAIN!" in this case.


OldB747Driver wrote:
If it is possible in the A320 (I have no experience on Airbus) is it conceivable that the Captain silenced the aural warnings knowing that the high and fast approach would likely set off a number of messages? If so, not responding to both gear warnings as well as EGPWS alarms would be possible.

The latest evidence of the long (left cowl 4500 to 6000 / 7000 ft, right cowl from 5500 to 6000 / 7000 ft) skid damage indicates to me that 1) There was a prolonged flare and, 2) They had enough airspeed to "float" level for at least 2000 ft. That they got airborne again further suggests the high speed and controlled descent / flare.

Finally, the ECU alternator is at the 6 o'clock position on the engine, the portion that would impact first - makes me wonder if the "default" loss-of-ECU alternator power configuration sets the engine range for operation at high thrust settings but due to lack of [electrical] power any significant reduction in power lever position would result in the inability of the engine to configure stator blades and bleeds to allow for less than high power settings, resulting in a flame out?


You can switch off the GPWS system entirely, which would mean no "TOO LOW! GEAR!", no "SINK RATE; SINK RATE!" and no "TERRAIN!" You might do for an unstable approach to prevent nuisance warnings.

You cannot, however, pre-emptively silence the master warning (continuous "ding, ding, ding..." chime). So when descending below 750 feet without the gear down, you'd still get that. And it is heard on the ATC recording.


777GE90 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I've read a few different sources (avherald, the dried fruit place, etc) and most sources say the alarm is for flap overspeed rather than gear issues. That's consistent with them trying to salvage a bad approach. It's not just a bad approach, it's one where they have something like twice the amount of energy they should have when trying to capture the ILS.

Without concrete evidence, I'm not buying a crew error on not lowering the gear. Pretty much everyone of us who have operated a retractable gear aircraft makes it a big part of our mental loop that runs during the landing pattern. I'm having a hard time thinking two experienced pilots in a modern FBW cockpit are going to make such a basic error. I know I'd be looking for three greens several times during the final approach, and the alarm would make me look at the panel at least once if it was indeed a gear warning. I'd be very surprised if they didn't have the gear down early in the approach trying to lose altitude and if the gear didn't come down they would notice soon enough and then do a go-around to figure out the gear problem early in the approach. On the flip side, if the warning was for overspeed, they'd simply note it and carry on, since they know they're over speed.

I'm much more inclined to believe we have a crew trying to salvage a too high and too close approach then realizing they're half way down the runway and need to do a go-around then raising the gear before positive climb is established then scraping the nacelles for a few hundred feet then finally climbing away. That has happened a few different times now, and most of the evidence we have is a crew trying to salvage an unstable approach.


That's interesting, I wonder if the A320 won't lower the landing gear if the aircraft speed is too fast (i.e. a safety mechanism or phsycially not possible?). If that was the case, perhaps they did select to lower the landing gear but it didn't deploy due to excessive speed?

I could understand how they would miss the gear down alarm if they are too high and too fast, if the flaps overspeed sound is going off then they would have probably trained their minds in that brief moment to ignore alarms and carry on focusing on landing, which may have helped them forget to double check the landing gear is actually down and ignore other warnings too? I've seen of situations of aircrafts accidently landing with gear up, but not on modern commercial jets.


I don't know the A320 gear system but it should be like the A330 or any other modern airliner. There is a system to prevent gear extension at high speed. However, that would not be active until well above max gear extension speed, which is well above approach speed.


I want to say I remember reading in the manual that at 260 kts the safety switch will engage and prevent the gear from extending.

Remember too that no matter the experience of this crew, a lot of us pilots have not been flying for upwards of a few months, and while we might be in currency, surely a good number of us are rusty. That could be a contributing factor to the crash as well, in regards to being behind the curve.
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
IWMBH
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:47 pm

Don’t you get a terrain warning when you try to land an A320 without the gear down?
 
VSMUT
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:52 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
I called forgetting gear down a couple of days ago, but, no one seemed to take me seriously....
Anyway, what’s even more astonishing , is that they managed to scrape the aircraft for around 2500ft Along a runway, on its two motors, and then take off again.... Totally mind blowing decision making.!!!


The only other possibility I can see is that they had the gear down initially, but then raised the gear before they got down near the runway, and then allowed the plane to sink so low that the engines dragged along the pavement.

That would explain the lack of any other damage on the bottom of the plane. No nose damage and no MLG door damage.

In other words, they decided to raise the gear as the plane was descending, but the plane was still high enough to allow the gear to cycle fully before it sank low enough that the engines began to slide along the ground.


You are very fixated on the gear being down before the landing. IMO, it seems likely that they forgot it completely. It looks like they came in hot and high. That means less time to do the procedures, checklists, slow down etc. It also explains why a Master Warning signal at 500 ft wasn't reacted too faster - they were preoccupied just slowing down and configuring the plane, and with much higher speeds you eat up those last 500 ft in absolutely no time. It looks like a textbook example on an unstabilized approach if you ask me.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:52 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Don’t you get a terrain warning when you try to land an A320 without the gear down?


I believe you'll get several warnings of various types, panel/ECAM indications, chimes, spoken...
 
IWMBH
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:54 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Don’t you get a terrain warning when you try to land an A320 without the gear down?


I believe you'll get several warnings of various types, panel/ECAM indications, chimes, spoken...


Just seems crazy that this is still possible in 2020
 
tax1k
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:56 pm

This may be a stupid question, but I’m assuming that the runway in a mountainous part of the world is higher relative to sea level meaning air is less dense and longer stopping times on runway. Did that play a role here? Do FBW warnings correct for that?
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 7:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
I called forgetting gear down a couple of days ago, but, no one seemed to take me seriously....
Anyway, what’s even more astonishing , is that they managed to scrape the aircraft for around 2500ft Along a runway, on its two motors, and then take off again.... Totally mind blowing decision making.!!!


The only other possibility I can see is that they had the gear down initially, but then raised the gear before they got down near the runway, and then allowed the plane to sink so low that the engines dragged along the pavement.

That would explain the lack of any other damage on the bottom of the plane. No nose damage and no MLG door damage.

In other words, they decided to raise the gear as the plane was descending, but the plane was still high enough to allow the gear to cycle fully before it sank low enough that the engines began to slide along the ground.


You are very fixated on the gear being down before the landing. IMO, it seems likely that they forgot it completely. It looks like they came in hot and high. That means less time to do the procedures, checklists, slow down etc. It also explains why a Master Warning signal at 500 ft wasn't reacted too faster - they were preoccupied just slowing down and configuring the plane, and with much higher speeds you eat up those last 500 ft in absolutely no time. It looks like a textbook example on an unstabilized approach if you ask me.


No, I think they forgot it completely, as I have indicated a few times already.

Making one suggestion of another possibility that may fit what we see does not mean that I have changed my mind about what I think happened.
It means that I am not fixated on one explanation.
 
889091
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 8:01 pm

Were they running late? Was the cockpit crew about to time out?

They crashed in good weather right in the middle of the day. I am trying to understand why they chose to press on, even though they were coming in hot and high...
 
VSMUT
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 8:01 pm

IWMBH wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Don’t you get a terrain warning when you try to land an A320 without the gear down?


I believe you'll get several warnings of various types, panel/ECAM indications, chimes, spoken...


Just seems crazy that this is still possible in 2020


The systems are only as good as the person operating it. In this part of the world, I wouldn't trust the pilots too much. See the US Bangla crash for example. Although it was only a twitter post, I did see someone claim that the captain was a known abuser with a massive ego, so we may be back to a case like in South Korea where the FO knew something was wrong but didn't speak up.


tax1k wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but I’m assuming that the runway in a mountainous part of the world is higher relative to sea level meaning air is less dense and longer stopping times on runway. Did that play a role here? Do FBW warnings correct for that?


Karachi is by the sea.


889091 wrote:
Were they running late? Was the cockpit crew about to time out?

They crashed in good weather right in the middle of the day. I am trying to understand why they chose to press on, even though they were coming in hot and high...


Target fixation, or whatever they call it today. It is taught regularly in Europe, but even here we get pilots who trap themselves in it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_fixation

While experiencing target fixation, a person be very susceptible to dangerous situations due to lack of awareness of one's surroundings.
 
Bambel
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 8:09 pm

Regarding the extended gear before the crash: what happens if the gear is in its up position and all hydraulic circuits get depressurized?

And regarding the scrap marks: they look more like burns marks to me. Maybe the engines had only contact for a short time and then spilled burning fluids on the RW?

Nevertheless.. some kind of "miracle" that this plane got airborn again..

B.
 
Saintor
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:35 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 8:12 pm

IWMBH wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Don’t you get a terrain warning when you try to land an A320 without the gear down?


I believe you'll get several warnings of various types, panel/ECAM indications, chimes, spoken...


Just seems crazy that this is still possible in 2020


... even with the most modern airliners.

Two recent episodes of mishaps, including one with a 787.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 42061.html
 
Saintor
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:35 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 8:15 pm

I read elsewhere that VLE for A320 was max 280 or the request for gear down is rejected. Do we know what was the speed of PK8303 when it was over the runway?
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 8:24 pm

Saintor wrote:
I read elsewhere that VLE for A320 was max 280 or the request for gear down is rejected. Do we know what was the speed of PK8303 when it was over the runway?


Above 260 the gear will not go down, below 260 it follows the gear lever position. If there is weight on the wheels, it won't retract.
If you are above 260 and select gear down, it will not actually go down until the speed drops below 260.

If they blew down the runway above 260, scraping the ground, that would have been a heck of thing to witness.
 
Theseus
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 8:43 pm

Bambel wrote:
Nevertheless.. some kind of "miracle" that this plane got airborn again..


Indeed, but a sad miracle. If it did not happen and the plane stayed on the runway, we would probably only be looking at a W/O A320 but with everybody inside alive and mostly unhurt.

I am speechless seeing that the possibility they just forgot to extend the gear is now emerging as the most likely explanation. This is so sad to read.
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:07 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
Saintor wrote:
I read elsewhere that VLE for A320 was max 280 or the request for gear down is rejected. Do we know what was the speed of PK8303 when it was over the runway?


Above 260 the gear will not go down, below 260 it follows the gear lever position. If there is weight on the wheels, it won't retract.
If you are above 260 and select gear down, it will not actually go down until the speed drops below 260.

If they blew down the runway above 260, scraping the ground, that would have been a heck of thing to witness.
it would have helped them get airborne again though.

Wow, what a sequence. I’m wondering if the black boxes are going to reveal something worse than the speculation.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8788
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:19 pm

I’m surprised how calm the FO sounds on the radio. They couldn’t make it to 3,500 ft as cleared so after the runway impact things must have started to go badly wrong pretty soon. Reminds me of the Air Canada 671 disaster which was similar.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
MSNfan
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:24 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:19 pm

So if the airline is saying the gear was never lowered and the ATC recordings seem to indicate an aural warning was going off before their first landing attempt then the crew's actions are wildly perplexing...
Dentistry: Because everyone smiles in the same language!
 
asdf
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:28 pm

MSNfan wrote:
So if the airline is saying the gear was never lowered and the ATC recordings seem to indicate an aural warning was going off before their first landing attempt then the crew's actions are wildly perplexing...


from what we know now probably

coming in hot and high
lots of warnings
get-there-itis
switching of aurals
forgot gear down
perplex about ECAM warning @750
realizing gear is up to late
TOGA
but missed a good outcome for a few inches
damaging the engines
go on a new approach
did not take the possibility in their planning that they could loose both engines and lowered the gear pretty early this time
loose both engines
to low and to slow to reach the runway
doomed
 
Leeloo
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:43 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 10:59 pm

jwjsamster wrote:
This appears to be incredibly poor airmanship, with this kind of accident occurring I'm surprised that countries aren't banning PIA from their airspace and Pakistan isn't reviewing its training practices.

The only reason I could see this happening is that the crew would have pulled a breaker to turn off that warning or that warning happened to fail. Even then the crew will still not have followed their checklists and missed that they didn't put the landing gear down. I'm also guessing that there might have been a power dynamic in cockpit not allowing the first officer to speak up.

Anyway just my 0.02$, not an expert of course.



Having worked in the region (not aviation) in periods for almost 20 years i can just say i'm not surpised if this comes down to CRM failure. Surprised it doesnt happen more often in these and similar parts of the world.
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 11:06 pm

flee wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
"multi-storey" means 3-6 storeys here. Maybe 20-30 m high. These are not skyscrapers.

Thank you. I saw some pictures in the media of the neighborhood. It’s a miracle that no one on the ground was killed after a jet demolished their building and set it on fire during the Covid.

When I first saw the Google Earth pictures of the crash location on Avherald, I was amazed that there were multi storey buildings directly under the flight path so close to the airport. At most airports, buildings in such locations are usually no more than single or double storey and not any higher!


They are not multi-storied but maximum two levels. And besides I have spotted from a home in the area and the aircraft are quite high. You can see in this video at the 18:16 mark the houses below. It's definitely no Sao Paulo approach.

https://youtu.be/HYYujUxFkp8
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
oliverrowen
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:32 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun May 24, 2020 11:51 pm

A few folks have mentioned the A320 260kt gear-down refusal programming...so what if:

1) Since lowering the gear is both difficult to forget and an effective means of shedding airspeed, perhaps the crew DID drop the gear early in the descent, but did so above 260kts. Amidst the chaos of trying to get the plane onto its goideslope, is it possible they attributed the warnings to something else? Maybe the chime was already going off when they tried to lower the gear. They would have also had to miss the indicator lights, but if a lot was going on, it's possible, and is potentially more likely than forgetting about it entirely.

2) When the plane touched down (on the engines), it would have taken some time to sort out what was happening since they "knew" the gear was down, explaining the seemingly-long and repeated markings on the runway (2,500 feet is about 5 seconds at 275kts). Who knows, maybe the initial engine touchdown didn't feel all that different to the actual wheels touching down? Or maybe they thought the gear had failed.

3) It seems hard to fathom, but if the aircraft were somehow still north of 260kts when it lifted off again, the gear would remain up (with the crew still believing it was down), while all of their faculties were being utilized to figure out what had just happened and what systems were failing.

4) As the aircraft lost speed, the gear would have actually deployed (for the first time), without being further commanded to do so by the crew, thus possibly explaining why they dropped the gear on the second attempt when airspeed was such a precious commodity.

Note that while I have read this thread in its entirety, I am not a pilot. I am just an enthusiast that has lurked on this forum for many years. I am sure that many of my assumptions are incorrect and I apologize in advance.

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