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SteinarN
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 3:44 pm

BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
That FlightRadar24 data looks a little fishy to me. 220kts on final approach? At that speed they wouldn't even be able to extend the flaps.


Maybe that is the reason for no flaps in the pictures taken shortly after initial climb out, before gear was extended. If they had no gear out, maybe they didnt have flaps either.
However, all that will be clear very soon when the DFDR have been read out.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 4:08 pm

BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
That FlightRadar24 data looks a little fishy to me. 220kts on final approach? At that speed they wouldn't even be able to extend the flaps.



And there lies the problem.
They’ve gone from 10000ft to 100 in 4 mins.
 
cedarjet
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 4:35 pm

Just to remember, there was a carbon copy of this crash two years ago, scraped along the deck on the engine nacelles, climbed away, double engine failure downwind due to damage, glided in short of the runway. SmartLynx 9001, Tallinn, 28/2/18

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20180228-0
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
pecevanne
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 4:54 pm

BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
That FlightRadar24 data looks a little fishy to me. 220kts on final approach? At that speed they wouldn't even be able to extend the flaps.

Maximum speed for flaps 1 is 230 kts
Only SLATS will be deployed
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 5:19 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Just to remember, there was a carbon copy of this crash two years ago, scraped along the deck on the engine nacelles, climbed away, double engine failure downwind due to damage, glided in short of the runway. SmartLynx 9001, Tallinn, 28/2/18

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20180228-0



well
maintainance+procedures+crew ....
 
VV
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 6:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
So far, I cannot understand how the engines can touch the runway if the pilots follow the procedure properly and read all the indicators properly.


I can see your problem here - "if the pilots follow the procedure properly and read all the indicators properly.".

What are you not understanding, given that so many crashes are due to pilots failing to do just that?


Pilots who do not follow the procedure during landing or go-around?
Are they even pilot then?
 
F9Animal
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 7:17 pm

lalib wrote:
VV wrote:
Who is examining the black boxes?

https://www.thenews.com.pk/

Main headline. Airbus sending a team to Karachi today.


This is kind of concerning. Why did they wait so long to come down? In the past, Airbus and Boeing are literally dispatched before the smoke clears. Again, I worry the government of Pakistan will never give us the entire story, which is pretty tragic in itself.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
by738
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 pm

Airbus wont allow that if theres a suggestion of eg jammed elevators or an unusual combination of automation or suchlike and blame directed at the aircraft
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 7:43 pm

F9Animal wrote:
lalib wrote:
VV wrote:
Who is examining the black boxes?

https://www.thenews.com.pk/

Main headline. Airbus sending a team to Karachi today.


This is kind of concerning. Why did they wait so long to come down? .


corona ?

in europe you are not allowed to cross borders since months
some countrys allow business travel, most dont

pakistan is not exactly europe
but similar restrictions apply nearly all around the world
 
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zeke
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 8:51 pm

F9Animal wrote:
What are the chances that Pakistan tries to sweep this under the carpet?


More likely a handmade Persian Rug.

F9Animal wrote:
As others mentioned, the if the plane is at 260 or above, the gear won't come down.


This isn’t actually true, you can deploy the gear at any speed. Just about every airliner depressurised their landing gear hydraulic systems in flight, Boeing have a 3 position gear lever, up, down, off. Airbus just has up and down, and uses an airspeed input instead of an off position to turn it off. Pilots can override this with the emergency extension.

The extended FR24 data shows they were 250 kts or below under 10,000 ft.

BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
That FlightRadar24 data looks a little fishy to me. 220kts on final approach? At that speed they wouldn't even be able to extend the flaps.


There is an issue with the data, their extended data shows Mach, TAS, IAS, altitude, and temperature. The data does not cross match. Final approach speed given the Mach reported was around 190 kts.

They were 250 kts or below under 10,000 ft.
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Leeloo
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 10:54 pm

F9Animal wrote:
lalib wrote:
VV wrote:
Who is examining the black boxes?

https://www.thenews.com.pk/

Main headline. Airbus sending a team to Karachi today.


This is kind of concerning. Why did they wait so long to come down? In the past, Airbus and Boeing are literally dispatched before the smoke clears. Again, I worry the government of Pakistan will never give us the entire story, which is pretty tragic in itself.


COVID-19. All multinational companies has policies of travel limitations, restrictions, quarantines here and there etc etc. Especially this part of the world. This is valid regardless of a crash of not. Safety first.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 11:11 pm

hivue wrote:
asdf wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Speculation follows:
A pilot who is understandably rather stressed by the situation might well push for TOGA and just hold full backstick. Which could lead to the aircraft becoming airborne in ground effect, slowing down because the engines haven't spooled up yet, then coming back down again and repeating the cycle. We don't know if the scratches are due to very precise control input. The aircraft might have just lightly bounced three times, with significant lift throughout, before climbing back out.


agree

but I suspect that a average pilot is not able to do this maneuver by pure hand flying skills ...

most would pull as hell ... and stall because no thrust ...


The airplane was apparently in Normal Law as it climbed out after scraping the runway. The pilot could "pull as hell" all he wanted and still not be in danger of stalling.

The question that interests me is was the airplane in Normal Law (whatever mode it was in) at the time of the crash. From the various videos it does not appear that it ever stalled despite the pilot likely pulling full back stick trying to make a runway nearby in clear sight.


With both engines flamed out, it would have been in Alternate Law.

No high AoA protection, but you'd get the stall warning.

It is not a given that the pilot would pull full backstick. Best glide speed would be the target. From very early on in flight training, pilots are taught to fly at best glide speed if you lose all power.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 11:45 pm

So do you gravity extend the gear in this situation, or commit to the belly landing? How much does the gravity gear extension affect the glide distance?

I guess wait as long as possible to extend the gear?
 
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moo
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon May 25, 2020 11:57 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
So do you gravity extend the gear in this situation, or commit to the belly landing? How much does the gravity gear extension affect the glide distance?

I guess wait as long as possible to extend the gear?


It entirely depends on how much energy you have - take a look at Air Transat Flight 236, dual engine flame out due to fuel exhaustion (defective fuel pipe caused a leak which emptied all tanks with the help of pilot action), happened over the Atlantic ocean at cruising altitude. They managed to make the Azores with a glide of 120km, and still had excess energy on touchdown, despite the pilots using energy-depleting manoeuvres (including a 360 degree turn and a number of S turns) to lose speed and altitude on approach. They extended the gear on approach.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 1:46 am

moo wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
So do you gravity extend the gear in this situation, or commit to the belly landing? How much does the gravity gear extension affect the glide distance?

I guess wait as long as possible to extend the gear?


It entirely depends on how much energy you have - take a look at Air Transat Flight 236, dual engine flame out due to fuel exhaustion (defective fuel pipe caused a leak which emptied all tanks with the help of pilot action), happened over the Atlantic ocean at cruising altitude. They managed to make the Azores with a glide of 120km, and still had excess energy on touchdown, despite the pilots using energy-depleting manoeuvres (including a 360 degree turn and a number of S turns) to lose speed and altitude on approach. They extended the gear on approach.


It seems like they were hauling the mail down the runway, or the engine drag would have ended the flight.

But that AT flight is nothing like this situation. They briefly made it to 3,000 feet or so after knocking out their engines on the pavement and maintained about 2,000 feet for a bit.

I'm wondering if they should ever have used the gravity gear extend versus going for the best glide and a belly landing.

I suspect that it's just an exercise question for this incident and there isn't much difference.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 2:05 am

LTC8K6 wrote:
So do you gravity extend the gear in this situation, or commit to the belly landing? How much does the gravity gear extension affect the glide distance?

I guess wait as long as possible to extend the gear?


The gear is your most effective speedbrake already, and with gravity extension the doors stay down which means even more drag. Gliding distance is very much affected.

If possible, land on the gear, not the belly. But in this case they were out of options. I don't know if they would have had time to gravity extend the gear. It takes longer than normal extension.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cbphoto
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 2:13 am

Starlionblue wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
So do you gravity extend the gear in this situation, or commit to the belly landing? How much does the gravity gear extension affect the glide distance?

I guess wait as long as possible to extend the gear?


The gear is your most effective speedbrake already, and with gravity extension the doors stay down which means even more drag. Gliding distance is very much affected.

If possible, land on the gear, not the belly. But in this case they were out of options. I don't know if they would have had time to gravity extend the gear. It takes longer than normal extension.


I would say a manual extension is actually quicker then a normal gear extension, procedures aside of course. Three turns of the handle and the gear is down and locked, and because gravity is what brings it down, it’s a pretty sudden event and within a second or so the gear is down. With the hydraulics extending the gear it can be a few seconds before the gear are fully down and locked.
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 2:58 am

cbphoto wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
So do you gravity extend the gear in this situation, or commit to the belly landing? How much does the gravity gear extension affect the glide distance?

I guess wait as long as possible to extend the gear?


The gear is your most effective speedbrake already, and with gravity extension the doors stay down which means even more drag. Gliding distance is very much affected.

If possible, land on the gear, not the belly. But in this case they were out of options. I don't know if they would have had time to gravity extend the gear. It takes longer than normal extension.


I would say a manual extension is actually quicker then a normal gear extension, procedures aside of course. Three turns of the handle and the gear is down and locked, and because gravity is what brings it down, it’s a pretty sudden event and within a second or so the gear is down. With the hydraulics extending the gear it can be a few seconds before the gear are fully down and locked.


Thanks for info. I guess it depends on the aircraft.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LCDFlight
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 am

Revelation wrote:
A Q&A worth repeating:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
AT wrote:
What I still am baffled by is why the descent prior to the first landing was so abnormally steep. If there were a problem, surely ATC would have been informed and there would have been emergency crews at the ready. Similarly for a landing gear problem.

Any number of reasons, traffic created a delayed descent clearance, crew missed a radio call and descended late, prior ATC sector had a traffic conflict, terrain. Crews wind up high and/or fast everyday for innocent combinations of factors—it’s what you do to get back “on profile” for a stabilized approach that matters.

There's lots of innocent ways to find oneself high and hot, what really matters is what you do to get back "on profile" or do a go around when it becomes obvious that you aren't going to salvage the landing. It'll be interesting if we ever get the true CVR and FDR readouts. I suspect it won't show the crew and in turn their airline and in turn their government in a positive light, so I'm doubtful we ever will.

I've listened to the ATC and what is surprising is the calmness in the voice of PNF. Warnings going off in the pattern? No problem. Go around after knowing you've been scraping the pods on the ground? No problem. Both engines out? No problem. All very strange to me.



It makes sense if he knows he did something wrong and is trying to minimize the situation at all costs.
 
wjcandee
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 6:30 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A Q&A worth repeating:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I've listened to the ATC and what is surprising is the calmness in the voice of PNF. Warnings going off in the pattern? No problem. Go around after knowing you've been scraping the pods on the ground? No problem. Both engines out? No problem. All very strange to me.



It makes sense if he knows he did something wrong and is trying to minimize the situation at all costs.


Or PIA's version of Chuck Yeager. Time was every US pilot wanted to sound like him on the radio. Unflappable.

Or they didn't understand the world of $%it they were in.
 
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Aesma
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 6:47 am

Starlionblue wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
So do you gravity extend the gear in this situation, or commit to the belly landing? How much does the gravity gear extension affect the glide distance?

I guess wait as long as possible to extend the gear?


The gear is your most effective speedbrake already, and with gravity extension the doors stay down which means even more drag. Gliding distance is very much affected.

If possible, land on the gear, not the belly. But in this case they were out of options. I don't know if they would have had time to gravity extend the gear. It takes longer than normal extension.


We know they had time to extend the gear because it was extended on the video. It probably was the final nail...
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HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 7:10 am

Maybe the plan was to go around the entire time. But, because of the high speed/energy, when they tried, the aircraft didn't pull up. Kind of like those air show crashes where the pilot does a loop but can't pull out of it and basically slides right into the ground.

Sorry if I missed it, but do we know why they were in such a hurry? Why was the first approach so unstable? I mean if they couldn't figure out how to ask for vectors to help stabilize the approach, it's no wonder they landed up how/where they did.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 8:07 am

HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Maybe the plan was to go around the entire time. But, because of the high speed/energy, when they tried, the aircraft didn't pull up. Kind of like those air show crashes where the pilot does a loop but can't pull out of it and basically slides right into the ground.

Sorry if I missed it, but do we know why they were in such a hurry? Why was the first approach so unstable? I mean if they couldn't figure out how to ask for vectors to help stabilize the approach, it's no wonder they landed up how/where they did.


High energy would be a good thing if you want to pull up, as you need that energy to do so. On the other hand, a low energy state means you can easily run out energy as you try to pull up. This happened in the infamous Mulhouse-Habsheim crash.

Air show crashes like those you are thinking about are typically different. Those aircraft ran out of altitude, but pulling more would have been ineffective because the manoeuvre could not be tightened further. No more lift to available and if you pull more you get an accelerated stall and pancake in. The Normal Law negative pitch limit of minus 15 degrees would have prevented this aircraft from going that nose-low anyway.


"Why were they in such a hurry?" is indeed the million-dollar question.

Approaches are sometimes hurried and things go a bit fast. It happens, but as long as you don't exceed any company speed or sink rate regulations for low altitude, and as long as meet the stabilised approach criteria, no harm done. One of the main reasons we have speed and sink rate regulations, and stabilised approach criteria, is as a reality check. As in, "Doing this is possible, but is it clever?"

This approach was next level out there. 3500 feet at 5 miles? I guess it would be possible to land straight in, but no way they would have been stable by 500/1000 feet (or whatever their company regs say). The only time to attempt something that crazy is if a fire is so bad you don't think you have even 2-3 minutes for a quick orbit.

BTW they didn't even need to ask for vectors. AFAIK ATC offered and they declined.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DH106
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 8:28 am

How about: They were high and fast on the first approach, so they drop the gear & descend rapidly. Approach/landing checklist is really rushed and on 'Gear Down' call the PNF - rushed & flustered & without thinking properly - merely TOGGLES the gear back up. Again beacuse of the rush, no proper check for 3 greens. The aircraft then flares for some distance with the pilots expecting a normal touchdown - but they realise too late and elect to go around. Engine scrapes lead to oil leaks or some other vital service issue lead to engine failures a short time later.
Huge cockpit failures..... but, not sure how else to explain it.
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VV
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 9:18 am

lalib wrote:
VV wrote:
Who is examining the black boxes?

https://www.thenews.com.pk/

Main headline. Airbus sending a team to Karachi today.


Usually the aircraft manufacturer is only assisting the investigators.

Which juridiction do the investigators come from? Is it French BEA or is it Pakistani Directorate General of Civil Aviation?
 
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FabDiva
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 10:12 am

VV wrote:
lalib wrote:
VV wrote:
Who is examining the black boxes?

https://www.thenews.com.pk/

Main headline. Airbus sending a team to Karachi today.


Usually the aircraft manufacturer is only assisting the investigators.

Which juridiction do the investigators come from? Is it French BEA or is it Pakistani Directorate General of Civil Aviation?


Pakistan will lead investigation and produce the final report
French BEA will assist (Country of Aircraft Manufacture) as will the US NTSB (Country of Engine Manufacture)
I suspect the Manufactuers will send teams out on standby to provide technical assistance to the investigators if requested.
 
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glideslope
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 11:17 am

Revelation wrote:
A Q&A worth repeating:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
AT wrote:
What I still am baffled by is why the descent prior to the first landing was so abnormally steep. If there were a problem, surely ATC would have been informed and there would have been emergency crews at the ready. Similarly for a landing gear problem.

Any number of reasons, traffic created a delayed descent clearance, crew missed a radio call and descended late, prior ATC sector had a traffic conflict, terrain. Crews wind up high and/or fast everyday for innocent combinations of factors—it’s what you do to get back “on profile” for a stabilized approach that matters.

There's lots of innocent ways to find oneself high and hot, what really matters is what you do to get back "on profile" or do a go around when it becomes obvious that you aren't going to salvage the landing. It'll be interesting if we ever get the true CVR and FDR readouts. I suspect it won't show the crew and in turn their airline and in turn their government in a positive light, so I'm doubtful we ever will.

I've listened to the ATC and what is surprising is the calmness in the voice of PNF. Warnings going off in the pattern? No problem. Go around after knowing you've been scraping the pods on the ground? No problem. Both engines out? No problem. All very strange to me.

CPHGuard wrote:
Since they gain both speed and altitude after the first attempt, it seems that the engines were still working to some degree at that point.

This would indicate that the loss of engine power happened after they climbed out.

Yes, the theory is dragging the engines along the runway caused failure in some system needed to keep the engines running, such as oil pressure or cooling, and it would take it a bit of time for the engine to fail in that scenario.


You know, I have also been interested in the emotionless tone of the crew. While we all expect a crew to perform in a trained, professional manner during events, this crew seems beyond that. Almost unaware to a degree. Now, I don't mean to go off topic win this , however, this flight was just 7 days after PIA began operations again, and the crew was still observing Ramadan as I understand it.

My understanding at least with PIA is the crew is required to take a "sweet drink and snack" prior to pushback during this observation. Was this done? I'm not a doctor, however, I'm very interested to see if the crew may have been hypoglycemic. Their radio responses make me very curious.
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345tas
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 12:04 pm

If indeed there was no issue with the flight during the first approach and the pilot flying had some sort of fixation with landing despite the unstable approach, it reminds me a bit of Garuda Flight 200: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda_In ... Flight_200

The key NTSC finding is that the aircraft was flown by the Pilot in Command (PIC) at an excessively steep descent and high airspeed (241 knots (446 km/h; 277 mph) rather than the normal 141 knots (261 km/h; 162 mph) during the approach and landing, resulting in unstable flight. The PIC's attention became fixated on trying to make the first approach work, and he failed to heed the warnings of the copilot and his recommendations to abort the landing and go around, and the repeated warnings from the aircraft flight systems, which were audible in the voice recorder data, e.g. "Sink rate" and ‘Whoop whoop, pull up".


That's a very extreme example because of the high speeds but it could be the crew's attitude was somewhat similar. The CVR will obviously clear a lot of this up, as it will be very interesting to see what the co-pilot's input was.
 
ubeema
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PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 12:19 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but do we know why they were in such a hurry? Why was the first approach so unstable? I mean if they couldn't figure out how to ask for vectors to help stabilize the approach, it's no wonder they landed up how/where they did.

"Why were they in such a hurry?" is indeed the million-dollar question.

BTW they didn't even need to ask for vectors. AFAIK ATC offered and they declined.

Million dollar question will be answered when we find out why drivers run red lights every day putting themselves and others at risks. Human factors will be huge on this one.
 
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Revelation
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 2:33 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Or PIA's version of Chuck Yeager. Time was every US pilot wanted to sound like him on the radio. Unflappable.

Or they didn't understand the world of $%it they were in.

I think they really didn't understand till very late in the sequence. I think they expected to climb away to pattern height and make another ILS approach. The tower requests they climb and report 3500 ft but they only get to 2000 and when the tower reports they are not climbing the crew requests 2000. I guess I expected to hear more like Sully, single words like "unable". I guess Sully & Skiles had better odds, they were at 2700 when they hit the geese and they got to 3000 before they stopped climbing. They had the advantage of seeing the geese all around them so they knew exactly why the engines failed. These guys may not have even known they touched ground, and don't seem to have planned for the possibility of engine damage. If they had, they would have gone in to survival mode immediately and perhaps done a "teardrop" 180 pattern back to the airport. I guess the CVR and DFDR will tell a lot more about what alerts they got from the engines and when they got them.

ubeema wrote:
Million dollar question will be answered when we find out why drivers run red lights every day putting themselves and others at risks. Human factors will be huge on this one.

Not sure the analogy fits. These aren't average motorists, these are well paid professional aviators who go through recurring training and evaluations. I'm not sure about your area, but around here we don't have bus drivers or train operators running lights every day. These people have professional standards and don't want to lose their jobs. Maybe these PIA pilots have a sense of entitlement but again that's a different situation than a bonehead running a traffic light.
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InsideMan
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 2:53 pm

glideslope wrote:
You know, I have also been interested in the emotionless tone of the crew. While we all expect a crew to perform in a trained, professional manner during events, this crew seems beyond that. Almost unaware to a degree. Now, I don't mean to go off topic win this , however, this flight was just 7 days after PIA began operations again, and the crew was still observing Ramadan as I understand it.


I immediately wondered about the tone too, but to me it sounds like he knows they f***ed up but doesn't want to show it..... (hoping nobody would notice is almost too hard to believe)
 
Superboi
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 3:24 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Maybe the plan was to go around the entire time. But, because of the high speed/energy, when they tried, the aircraft didn't pull up. Kind of like those air show crashes where the pilot does a loop but can't pull out of it and basically slides right into the ground.

Sorry if I missed it, but do we know why they were in such a hurry? Why was the first approach so unstable? I mean if they couldn't figure out how to ask for vectors to help stabilize the approach, it's no wonder they landed up how/where they did.


High energy would be a good thing if you want to pull up, as you need that energy to do so. On the other hand, a low energy state means you can easily run out energy as you try to pull up. This happened in the infamous Mulhouse-Habsheim crash.

Air show crashes like those you are thinking about are typically different. Those aircraft ran out of altitude, but pulling more would have been ineffective because the manoeuvre could not be tightened further. No more lift to available and if you pull more you get an accelerated stall and pancake in. The Normal Law negative pitch limit of minus 15 degrees would have prevented this aircraft from going that nose-low anyway.


"Why were they in such a hurry?" is indeed the million-dollar question.

Approaches are sometimes hurried and things go a bit fast. It happens, but as long as you don't exceed any company speed or sink rate regulations for low altitude, and as long as meet the stabilised approach criteria, no harm done. One of the main reasons we have speed and sink rate regulations, and stabilised approach criteria, is as a reality check. As in, "Doing this is possible, but is it clever?"

This approach was next level out there. 3500 feet at 5 miles? I guess it would be possible to land straight in, but no way they would have been stable by 500/1000 feet (or whatever their company regs say). The only time to attempt something that crazy is if a fire is so bad you don't think you have even 2-3 minutes for a quick orbit.

BTW they didn't even need to ask for vectors. AFAIK ATC offered and they declined.


Crazy Thought.......but just what if the Captain wanted to do an unauthorized low passby......possibly because there was low traffic....cause it seeming to me that is sort of the profile of the first approach, something like the crew in the link below did?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze1Zd0loidk
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9179
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 3:30 pm

InsideMan wrote:
glideslope wrote:
You know, I have also been interested in the emotionless tone of the crew. While we all expect a crew to perform in a trained, professional manner during events, this crew seems beyond that. Almost unaware to a degree. Now, I don't mean to go off topic win this , however, this flight was just 7 days after PIA began operations again, and the crew was still observing Ramadan as I understand it.


I immediately wondered about the tone too, but to me it sounds like he knows they f***ed up but doesn't want to show it..... (hoping nobody would notice is almost too hard to believe)


Well, those Pinnacle guys did exactly this and ended up killing themselves.

The Pinnacle guys should have 'fessed up immediately as to their dual engine failure and started picking out a place to land dead stick, of which there were many from the altitude they were at. But because they squandered that opportunity while trying to hide what they had done and figuring they'd get at least one engine relit, by the time they had to pick a place, they weren't making it there dead stick. Had they planned for that as Priority One, then they would have known when they had to stop bleeding altitude and had to break off their efforts to relight the engine with enough margin to land safely.

Amazing how keeping one's job (or reputation) can be a more-powerful motivator than keeping one's life. Not that people actually would say that out loud; instead, they routinely underestimate the actual risk to themselves when faced with the potential loss of job or reputation.
 
ubeema
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 4:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
ubeema wrote:
Million dollar question will be answered when we find out why drivers run red lights every day putting themselves and others at risks. Human factors will be huge on this one.

Not sure the analogy fits. These aren't average motorists, these are well paid professional aviators who go through recurring training and evaluations. I'm not sure about your area, but around here we don't have bus drivers or train operators running lights every day. These people have professional standards and don't want to lose their jobs. Maybe these PIA pilots have a sense of entitlement but again that's a different situation than a bonehead running a traffic light.

Rev - I totally get that everyday motorists and pilots are in a different level in training, abilities and professional standards. But it’s damning a licensed pilot faced with a potentially career threatening/ending decision might would go through the same mental calculus than the motorist who could not wait 2 mins seating at traffic light. That’s what’s sad about all of this, and leave us scratching our heads.
I hope when the investigation is complete the loss of life was caused by totally unforeseen circumstances, but like others have pointed out there were so many missed opportunities it is mind blowing.
 
889091
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 5:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Or PIA's version of Chuck Yeager. Time was every US pilot wanted to sound like him on the radio. Unflappable.

Or they didn't understand the world of $%it they were in.

I think they really didn't understand till very late in the sequence. I think they expected to climb away to pattern height and make another ILS approach. The tower requests they climb and report 3500 ft but they only get to 2000 and when the tower reports they are not climbing the crew requests 2000. I guess I expected to hear more like Sully, single words like "unable". I guess Sully & Skiles had better odds, they were at 2700 when they hit the geese and they got to 3000 before they stopped climbing. They had the advantage of seeing the geese all around them so they knew exactly why the engines failed. These guys may not have even known they touched ground, and don't seem to have planned for the possibility of engine damage. If they had, they would have gone in to survival mode immediately and perhaps done a "teardrop" 180 pattern back to the airport. I guess the CVR and DFDR will tell a lot more about what alerts they got from the engines and when they got them.

ubeema wrote:
Million dollar question will be answered when we find out why drivers run red lights every day putting themselves and others at risks. Human factors will be huge on this one.

Not sure the analogy fits. These aren't average motorists, these are well paid professional aviators who go through recurring training and evaluations. I'm not sure about your area, but around here we don't have bus drivers or train operators running lights every day. These people have professional standards and don't want to lose their jobs. Maybe these PIA pilots have a sense of entitlement but again that's a different situation than a bonehead running a traffic light.


.... and don't want to lose their jobs
Rev, I think you hit the nail right on the head there! Doing 3 kangaroo hops down the length of the runway with the engines dragging on the concrete - I am sure they realised it and felt it alright. When the suicidal man stepped in front of a SWA 737 a few weeks ago in Austin, pilots mentioned that they would've felt the impact, and that's only a ~180-200lb mass. Perhaps their mindset was to perform a normal missed approach circuit in the hope of somehow keeping their jobs.
 
BlueHeaven1969
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 9:20 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 6:48 pm

According to AVHerald, apparently the CVR is still missing. Only the CVR housing was recovered. Kinda an important detail to find out 4 days after the crash.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4447
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 6:59 pm

HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Maybe the plan was to go around the entire time. But, because of the high speed/energy, when they tried, the aircraft didn't pull up. Kind of like those air show crashes where the pilot does a loop but can't pull out of it and basically slides right into the ground.

Sorry if I missed it, but do we know why they were in such a hurry? Why was the first approach so unstable? I mean if they couldn't figure out how to ask for vectors to help stabilize the approach, it's no wonder they landed up how/where they did.


Still no answer to your questions. But the more that comes out, the more I learn towards multiple errors by the crew. I am anxious to see if they release the CVR transcripts eventually. Sounds like CRM may be a very serious issue here.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4447
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 7:02 pm

BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
According to AVHerald, apparently the CVR is still missing. Only the CVR housing was recovered. Kinda an important detail to find out 4 days after the crash.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0


This is alarming! 3 days ago they said they sent the black box to be analyzed! My suspicions that they would try to sweep this under the rug is becoming more possible by the day. We may never know what ultimately happened..... Unfortunately.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
majano
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 7:54 pm

Could I ask of those with greater knowledge of aircraft systems and safety integration. What is the downside of developing a control law that would lower the landing gear automatically at a set altitude during final approach? If it is true that pilots can (in rare instances) neglect lowering the gear and there are functional ground proximity systems in modern aircraft, there must be a valid reason that such a system has not been implemented.
 
AT
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 7:54 pm

F9Animal wrote:
BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
According to AVHerald, apparently the CVR is still missing. Only the CVR housing was recovered. Kinda an important detail to find out 4 days after the crash.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0


This is alarming! 3 days ago they said they sent the black box to be analyzed! My suspicions that they would try to sweep this under the rug is becoming more possible by the day. We may never know what ultimately happened..... Unfortunately.


While not impossible, 1. it's a crime to remove evidence, and 2. even if someone walked off with it, wouldn't it continue to ping? 3. Even in the absence of the CVR, the flight data recorder, esp when pieced with the ATC recordings and aircraft and runway pics should be informative.
 
Adipocere
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 7:55 pm

BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
According to AVHerald, apparently the CVR is still missing. Only the CVR housing was recovered. Kinda an important detail to find out 4 days after the crash.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0


Well there goes the investigation. At least we got the images of the runway and the stricken plane trying to land for intelligent people to make good-enough assessments of what happened.
 
LABA
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:35 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 8:11 pm

It still boggles my mind that, with current advancements in tech and connectivity, why there can't be a live telemetry from an aircraft in air. That has existed since the earlier space mission days and was quite sophisticated for that time. Instead, we are still hunting around for the CVR and FDR. Heck, have a CCTV inside the cockpit to ensure that post accidents authorities can see what happened. Something I am missing, maybe?
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 8:24 pm

https://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/546988 ... g-gear-ATC

The approach controller said that before landing, when the plane is usually at an altitude of 1800 feet, the captain was flying at an altitude of 3000 feet and even after repeated instructions, the captain maintained that he would manage altitude and speed before landing.

The ATC further said that the captain landed the plane for the first time without opening the landing gear. On the first landing, both engines collided with the runway and rubbed against it three times and caused sparking before the captain pulled the plane back up asked for permission to land again.

According to sources, the investigation team questioned the ATC and the approach tower controllers whether the captain had signaled for an emergency landing, to which they replied that the captain did not declare to attempt an emergency landing and insisted that he would land normally.
 
889091
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 9:03 pm

AT wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
According to AVHerald, apparently the CVR is still missing. Only the CVR housing was recovered. Kinda an important detail to find out 4 days after the crash.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0


This is alarming! 3 days ago they said they sent the black box to be analyzed! My suspicions that they would try to sweep this under the rug is becoming more possible by the day. We may never know what ultimately happened..... Unfortunately.


While not impossible, 1. it's a crime to remove evidence, and 2. even if someone walked off with it, wouldn't it continue to ping? 3. Even in the absence of the CVR, the flight data recorder, esp when pieced with the ATC recordings and aircraft and runway pics should be informative.


I believe both boxes will only emit a ping when immersed in water.

https://aerospace.honeywell.com/content ... asheet.pdf
 
889091
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 9:08 pm

LABA wrote:
It still boggles my mind that, with current advancements in tech and connectivity, why there can't be a live telemetry from an aircraft in air. That has existed since the earlier space mission days and was quite sophisticated for that time. Instead, we are still hunting around for the CVR and FDR. Heck, have a CCTV inside the cockpit to ensure that post accidents authorities can see what happened. Something I am missing, maybe?


Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.
 
LABA
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:35 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 9:35 pm

Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.


Precisely the point, with all the recent incidents, this still is not becoming a priority!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6458
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 10:04 pm

majano wrote:
Could I ask of those with greater knowledge of aircraft systems and safety integration. What is the downside of developing a control law that would lower the landing gear automatically at a set altitude during final approach? If it is true that pilots can (in rare instances) neglect lowering the gear and there are functional ground proximity systems in modern aircraft, there must be a valid reason that such a system has not been implemented.


Sully certainly didn’t want the gear to go down! It’s just not necessary and there are situations where you might not want auto extend. The warning systems work well, if pilots listen.


GF
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 10:14 pm

LABA wrote:
Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.


Precisely the point, with all the recent incidents, this still is not becoming a priority!


It's not that simple to just install something new on a passenger airliner.

It's even more difficult to install something that is fool proof and won't cause problems itself.
Such as your new CCTV circuit causing a fire.

The crew can always turn whatever you install off, if they don't want to be monitored.
It has to be able to be powered down in case the circuit causes trouble.

Fatality and accident rates are unbelievably low in most countries.

It doesn't appear so far that any extra surveillance would've changed anything in this case, either about the crew or about what happened or about our knowledge of each.

Modern planes do have another recorder in most cases, the QAR.

Having said all that, I'm not against such improvements to airliner tracking and data gathering.
It's just too easy to request it when you don't actually have to be the one to do it.
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 10:46 pm

*mods delete please*
 
hinckley
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 11:04 pm

LABA wrote:
Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.

Precisely the point, with all the recent incidents, this still is not becoming a priority!


LTC8K6 wrote:
It's not that simple to just install something new on a passenger airliner.

No one said it was simple. And are we only making advancements in modern civil aviation that are "simple"?


LTC8K6 wrote:
It's even more difficult to install something that is fool proof and won't cause problems itself. Such as your new CCTV circuit causing a fire.

No one said it would be fool proof. And of course, technology like AVOD systems could cause a fire so they'd never be installed on commercial airliners. Oh . . . wait . . .


LTC8K6 wrote:
The crew can always turn whatever you install off, if they don't want to be monitored . . . It doesn't appear so far that any extra surveillance would've changed anything in this case, either about the crew or about what happened or about our knowledge of each.

And of course, there it is. The voice of the crew member that sees upgrading 1960s-era safety systems as surreptitious "monitoring", as "extra surveillance". It doesn't matter that systems that could save lives are not being installed as long as flight crews have the privacy they desire.


LTC8K6 wrote:
Having said all that, I'm not against such improvements to airliner tracking and data gathering.

Right. Got it. Your perspective's quite clear.

It's been 11 years since AF447. Imagine the progress that could have been made if it wasn't for these silly, transparent arguments.
Last edited by hinckley on Tue May 26, 2020 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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