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Saintor
Posts: 60
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 11:13 pm

This youtube channel insinuates that the gear lever was actually lowered. They claim to rely on official statements and eye witnesses. I wonder where they took that.

At about 4m.
https://youtu.be/oUOn6FrDPwg?t=240
 
LABA
Posts: 17
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue May 26, 2020 11:39 pm

Safety v/s privacy - that's all that there is to it. There is no problem in having transit buses with 10 cameras inside and yet in the isolated environment of an airplane 36000 feet in the air, privacy is a concern? While the CCTV comment was there for visuals, the bigger question is the telemetry data. IIRC, for MH370, the engines were pinging out some data while the transponder was switched off. I know I am digressing from the post topic. Sorry.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 12:12 am

hinckley wrote:
LABA wrote:
Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.

Precisely the point, with all the recent incidents, this still is not becoming a priority!


LTC8K6 wrote:
It's not that simple to just install something new on a passenger airliner.

No one said it was simple. And are we only making advancements in modern civil aviation that are "simple"?


LTC8K6 wrote:
It's even more difficult to install something that is fool proof and won't cause problems itself. Such as your new CCTV circuit causing a fire.

No one said it would be fool proof. And of course, technology like AVOD systems could cause a fire so they'd never be installed on commercial airliners. Oh . . . wait . . .


LTC8K6 wrote:
The crew can always turn whatever you install off, if they don't want to be monitored . . . It doesn't appear so far that any extra surveillance would've changed anything in this case, either about the crew or about what happened or about our knowledge of each.

And of course, there it is. The voice of the crew member that sees upgrading 1960s-era safety systems as surreptitious "monitoring", as "extra surveillance". It doesn't matter that systems that could save lives are not being installed as long as flight crews have the privacy they desire.


LTC8K6 wrote:
Having said all that, I'm not against such improvements to airliner tracking and data gathering.

Right. Got it. Your perspective's quite clear.

It's been 11 years since AF447. Imagine the progress that could have been made if it wasn't for these silly, transparent arguments.


I was talking about MH370 and other intentional incidents, not about crew privacy. The flight crew has no right to privacy while on the job, imo.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 12:46 am

majano wrote:
Could I ask of those with greater knowledge of aircraft systems and safety integration. What is the downside of developing a control law that would lower the landing gear automatically at a set altitude during final approach? If it is true that pilots can (in rare instances) neglect lowering the gear and there are functional ground proximity systems in modern aircraft, there must be a valid reason that such a system has not been implemented.


- You are implementing an automatic functionality and thus introducing the possibility of a malfunction. It could trigger at the wrong time.
- In certain situations, e.g. dual engine flameout, it may not be desirable to lower the gear until the last minute.
- In the case of ditching in water, you don't want to lower the gear at all.

Naturally, these risks must be weighed against the risk of forgetting the gear. But given how extremely improbable it is to forget, I think the current system the safest.



LABA wrote:
It still boggles my mind that, with current advancements in tech and connectivity, why there can't be a live telemetry from an aircraft in air. That has existed since the earlier space mission days and was quite sophisticated for that time. Instead, we are still hunting around for the CVR and FDR. Heck, have a CCTV inside the cockpit to ensure that post accidents authorities can see what happened. Something I am missing, maybe?


Most large airlines have had live telemetry of many parameters for years for maintenance purposes. That's how the recorders from AF447 were found. But it is not granular enough for this kind of analysis.

There are several issues with streaming:
- The amount of data recorded by the DFDR in particular is quite extensive. Streaming such data continually for all airliners would require a massive investment in infrastructure, as would storing the data.
- Potential for misuse with consequences for safety culture. Many companies already use QAR (Quick Access Recorder) data to "check" on pilots. This can lead to a reluctance to take appropriate action if the pilots feel it would get them in trouble. For example, if pilots feel an approach should not be continued, and go around. Subsequently, the data indicates they were stable. So management disciplines them. And now pilots are reluctant to go around.
- Privacy issues. More on that below.

Importantly, it isn't as if streaming the data will lead to faster investigations anyway. There is a lot of focus on finding the recorders from the media but the thing that takes time is actually analysing the data. Furthemore, investigators look at a vast array of facts that goes well beyond the recorders, including structural analysis, debris patterns and so on.

Like everything in aviation, there is a cost/benefit analysis. Continual streaming would cost massively but have limited benefit. Except for the astronomically rare exception such as MH370, accident investigations have the necessary data to be solved.

Budgets are limited and if money should be spent on anything, it should probably be enhanced training instead of enhanced streaming.


LABA wrote:
Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.


Precisely the point, with all the recent incidents, this still is not becoming a priority!


Which "recent incidents" are you referring to? Apart from MH370, there aren't really any accident investigations in the past decades that would have been dependent on streaming data to reach a conclusion.


hinckley wrote:
LABA wrote:
Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.

Precisely the point, with all the recent incidents, this still is not becoming a priority!


LTC8K6 wrote:
It's not that simple to just install something new on a passenger airliner.

No one said it was simple. And are we only making advancements in modern civil aviation that are "simple"?

...
LTC8K6 wrote:
The crew can always turn whatever you install off, if they don't want to be monitored . . . It doesn't appear so far that any extra surveillance would've changed anything in this case, either about the crew or about what happened or about our knowledge of each.

And of course, there it is. The voice of the crew member that sees upgrading 1960s-era safety systems as surreptitious "monitoring", as "extra surveillance". It doesn't matter that systems that could save lives are not being installed as long as flight crews have the privacy they desire.

LTC8K6 wrote:
Having said all that, I'm not against such improvements to airliner tracking and data gathering.

Right. Got it. Your perspective's quite clear.

It's been 11 years since AF447. Imagine the progress that could have been made if it wasn't for these silly, transparent arguments.


I don't know why you think that professional pilots are against changes and improvements that would increase safety, just because of privacy concerns. That is certainly not the case. We are against stuff being installed without a thorough analysis of benefit vs risk. I personally don't see CCTV, for example, as enhancing safety. In some cases, you'd be able to investigate slightly more efficiently, but it isn't accident investigators don't figure out what happened in crashes with the data they get now.

If you use a camera to record everything pilots do, it opens up a big can of worms. And I'm not talking doing stupid things on the flight deck that a professional pilot would not do. I am not afraid of management catching me taking rude pics on the flight deck. I don't need a camera to stop me doing such things.

I'm talking management being able to nitpick every mistake and take punitive action. That would be a detriment to a just safety culture. Certainly not all companies would do so. However, I have a sad feeling that it would companies with a less than fully robust safety culture that would end up being most guilty of such things.

BTW cockpit cameras streaming the takeoff to TVs in the cabin were a bit of thing in the 70s and 80s at some companies. And pilots didn't rise up in revolt.

I have yet to see an adequate explanation backed up with scientific data that shows putting cameras on the flight deck would enhance safety or the success of investigations. I may be wrong about that. However, I do think you have an inaccurate understanding of pilot motivations in this matter.


BTW you're assuming nothing has been done on tracking since AF447 and MH370. That is not the case. The industry has moved forward with tracking and data gathering. This is aviation though. Everything takes time.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
hinckley
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 1:19 am

Starlionblue wrote:
I don't know why you think that professional pilots are against changes and improvements that would increase safety, just because of privacy concerns. That is certainly not the case. We are against stuff being installed without a thorough analysis of benefit vs risk. I personally don't see CCTV, for example, as enhancing safety. In some cases, you'd be able to investigate slightly more efficiently, but it isn't accident investigators don't figure out what happened in crashes with the data they get now.

I do think that and it's because I believe that flight crews have been most resistant, especially to maintaining data of cockpit activity. Fwiw, I don't think that CCTVs are necessary at all. The information currently collected in today's two black boxes seem sufficient to determine cause for most or all flight incidents. But this constant searching for the two boxes thru mountain-side debris or on ocean bottoms is archaic, and then we need to hope that the boxes are in tack and the data can be read. It's just completely unnecessary in modern times.

As you've said, data streaming is already occurring. Of course infrastructure would need to be upgraded, but the cost would be in enhanced streaming capabilities (including tough stuff like sat relays for trans-polar flights). It's all doable. It won't happen overnight, but as I said, imagine the advancements we could have made in the 11 years since AF447.

btw, the cost of data storage has become incredibly inexpensive and data does not need to be stored for long. A few days or weeks (max) of history is all that's really necessary. That's not nothing, but it's not wildly expensive either.
 
GoSharks
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:23 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 1:36 am

LABA wrote:
Discussed ad nauseam after AF447 and MH370. In summary, we are not quite there yet.


Precisely the point, with all the recent incidents, this still is not becoming a priority!

All? How many [recent] incidents have there been involving the recorders not being found? Across how many flights?

hinckley wrote:
But this constant searching for the two boxes thru mountain-side debris or on ocean bottoms is archaic.

You're searching through the debris regardless if there are two boxes or not.
 
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Aesma
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 4:31 am

Saintor wrote:
This youtube channel insinuates that the gear lever was actually lowered. They claim to rely on official statements and eye witnesses. I wonder where they took that.

At about 4m.
https://youtu.be/oUOn6FrDPwg?t=240


The plane crashed with the landing gear down, I didn't see any doubt about that, so yes the lever would be down.

What we'd want to be sure about is the state of the lever just before the first landing attempt, but that will have to wait for the deciphering of the recorders.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 6:51 am

F9Animal wrote:
BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
According to AVHerald, apparently the CVR is still missing. Only the CVR housing was recovered. Kinda an important detail to find out 4 days after the crash.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0


This is alarming! 3 days ago they said they sent the black box to be analyzed! My suspicions that they would try to sweep this under the rug is becoming more possible by the day. We may never know what ultimately happened..... Unfortunately.

Exactly what I wrote a few days back but seems to have been deleted by the mods. Below is the extract from Pakistan's main English newspaper- Dawn
"Accompanied by Information Minister Nasir Shah at the press conference, Sindh Education Minister Saeed Ghani expressed lack of confidence in the official body formed to investigate the plane crash. “All members of the investigation committee are subordinates to the PIA chief,” he said, referring to the fact that majority of the team members belonged to the Pakistan Air Force and PIA chief Arshad Malik was a serving Air Marshal of the PAF.
Mr Ghani wondered what would be the purpose of an investigation when the PIA chief had already sorted out all the matters. He demanded that the current investigation team be abolished and a new team with representatives of Palpa and international pilots’ body be formed."
https://www.dawn.com/news/1559592/airbu ... crash-site
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1325
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:10 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 8:31 am

maint123 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
BlueHeaven1969 wrote:
According to AVHerald, apparently the CVR is still missing. Only the CVR housing was recovered. Kinda an important detail to find out 4 days after the crash.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0


This is alarming! 3 days ago they said they sent the black box to be analyzed! My suspicions that they would try to sweep this under the rug is becoming more possible by the day. We may never know what ultimately happened..... Unfortunately.

Exactly what I wrote a few days back but seems to have been deleted by the mods. Below is the extract from Pakistan's main English newspaper- Dawn
"Accompanied by Information Minister Nasir Shah at the press conference, Sindh Education Minister Saeed Ghani expressed lack of confidence in the official body formed to investigate the plane crash. “All members of the investigation committee are subordinates to the PIA chief,” he said, referring to the fact that majority of the team members belonged to the Pakistan Air Force and PIA chief Arshad Malik was a serving Air Marshal of the PAF.
Mr Ghani wondered what would be the purpose of an investigation when the PIA chief had already sorted out all the matters. He demanded that the current investigation team be abolished and a new team with representatives of Palpa and international pilots’ body be formed."
https://www.dawn.com/news/1559592/airbu ... crash-site


Sindh's Education Minister telling us about a lack of confidence is the height of hypocrisy. PIA has been destroyed by the civilian authorities that have run this airline since the 90's. Majority of the people given positions are not even degree holders to begin with. Arshad Malik was brought in to repair the airlines image and sort out the unions who have been black mailing PIA for decades. He has done a valiant job by turning it into a profiting entity to start with. This plane crash inquiry is also expected to bring further scrutiny on people within the organization who are thoroughly unskilled for the rules they occupy.

And secondly, Pakistan is not a military state. The past civilian governments have brought pakistan onto its haunches and now the current government of Imran Khan is helping to clean out the mess with the help of the army to get Pakistan on track.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
majano
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 9:09 am

Starlionblue wrote:
majano wrote:
Could I ask of those with greater knowledge of aircraft systems and safety integration. What is the downside of developing a control law that would lower the landing gear automatically at a set altitude during final approach? If it is true that pilots can (in rare instances) neglect lowering the gear and there are functional ground proximity systems in modern aircraft, there must be a valid reason that such a system has not been implemented.


- You are implementing an automatic functionality and thus introducing the possibility of a malfunction. It could trigger at the wrong time.
- In certain situations, e.g. dual engine flameout, it may not be desirable to lower the gear until the last minute.
- In the case of ditching in water, you don't want to lower the gear at all.

Naturally, these risks must be weighed against the risk of forgetting the gear. But given how extremely improbable it is to forget, I think the current system the safest.
.

Thanks to you and Galaxyflyer for the responses.
 
hinckley
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 am

Emirates773ER wrote:
Sindh's Education Minister telling us about a lack of confidence is the height of hypocrisy. PIA has been destroyed by the civilian authorities that have run this airline since the 90's. Majority of the people given positions are not even degree holders to begin with. Arshad Malik was brought in to repair the airlines image and sort out the unions who have been black mailing PIA for decades. He has done a valiant job by turning it into a profiting entity to start with. This plane crash inquiry is also expected to bring further scrutiny on people within the organization who are thoroughly unskilled for the rules they occupy.

And secondly, Pakistan is not a military state. The past civilian governments have brought pakistan onto its haunches and now the current government of Imran Khan is helping to clean out the mess with the help of the army to get Pakistan on track.

Let's not be too cavalier . . . Pakistan has been a military states several times in its history and the threat of another military takeover is always a present danger for any civilian government. Many are hopeful that Imran Khan can change the historical culture of Pakistan's governance, but that's far from certain. And as you say yourself, Khan is trying to do that "with the help" of the army. He has been choosing his battles carefully, but one has to wonder - with so many economic and cultural battles to fight, will Khan really pick a civilian airliner crash as one of them?
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 10:45 am

Emirates773ER wrote:
maint123 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:

This is alarming! 3 days ago they said they sent the black box to be analyzed! My suspicions that they would try to sweep this under the rug is becoming more possible by the day. We may never know what ultimately happened..... Unfortunately.

Exactly what I wrote a few days back but seems to have been deleted by the mods. Below is the extract from Pakistan's main English newspaper- Dawn
"Accompanied by Information Minister Nasir Shah at the press conference, Sindh Education Minister Saeed Ghani expressed lack of confidence in the official body formed to investigate the plane crash. “All members of the investigation committee are subordinates to the PIA chief,” he said, referring to the fact that majority of the team members belonged to the Pakistan Air Force and PIA chief Arshad Malik was a serving Air Marshal of the PAF.
Mr Ghani wondered what would be the purpose of an investigation when the PIA chief had already sorted out all the matters. He demanded that the current investigation team be abolished and a new team with representatives of Palpa and international pilots’ body be formed."
https://www.dawn.com/news/1559592/airbu ... crash-site


Sindh's Education Minister telling us about a lack of confidence is the height of hypocrisy. PIA has been destroyed by the civilian authorities that have run this airline since the 90's. Majority of the people given positions are not even degree holders to begin with. Arshad Malik was brought in to repair the airlines image and sort out the unions who have been black mailing PIA for decades. He has done a valiant job by turning it into a profiting entity to start with. This plane crash inquiry is also expected to bring further scrutiny on people within the organization who are thoroughly unskilled for the rules they occupy.

And secondly, Pakistan is not a military state. The past civilian governments have brought pakistan onto its haunches and now the current government of Imran Khan is helping to clean out the mess with the help of the army to get Pakistan on track.

Without going off topic, can the PM imran Khan sack the army chief ? If not then he is in power at the mercy of the army.
But this topic is on the independence of the crash enquiry. A civilian aircraft has crashed, but the constituted enquiry committee is dominated by defense guys ? This does not happen anywhere in the world.
Are the airforce guys more familiar with the Airbus than the civilians who are operating them day in day out ? Their is no logic in stacking it full of defense personnel.
And suddenly after a week , the news comes out that the CVR is not found. It's all unbelievable. Typical setup to absolve the favorites of any culpability and to probably save the acting PIA ceo(a serving airforce guy) neck.
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1325
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 12:20 pm

hinckley wrote:
Emirates773ER wrote:
Sindh's Education Minister telling us about a lack of confidence is the height of hypocrisy. PIA has been destroyed by the civilian authorities that have run this airline since the 90's. Majority of the people given positions are not even degree holders to begin with. Arshad Malik was brought in to repair the airlines image and sort out the unions who have been black mailing PIA for decades. He has done a valiant job by turning it into a profiting entity to start with. This plane crash inquiry is also expected to bring further scrutiny on people within the organization who are thoroughly unskilled for the rules they occupy.

And secondly, Pakistan is not a military state. The past civilian governments have brought pakistan onto its haunches and now the current government of Imran Khan is helping to clean out the mess with the help of the army to get Pakistan on track.

Let's not be too cavalier . . . Pakistan has been a military states several times in its history and the threat of another military takeover is always a present danger for any civilian government. Many are hopeful that Imran Khan can change the historical culture of Pakistan's governance, but that's far from certain. And as you say yourself, Khan is trying to do that "with the help" of the army. He has been choosing his battles carefully, but one has to wonder - with so many economic and cultural battles to fight, will Khan really pick a civilian airliner crash as one of them?



What does history have to do with today? We are not living in 1999. Pakistan has been a democracy for more than a decade with three governments changing hands. There is no danger of military taking over, zero/zilch/nada. Infact if anything Pakistan is now well on course to have a democracy that works with its establishment and not against it for the foreseeable future. A clear indication of this is the fact that every country on this earth is now dealing with Imran Khan directly, the military has deferred all responsibilities to the civilian government.

Khan's mission is to change the bureaucratic governance which is in complete shambles. PIA has not been able to produce a transparent crash investigation under any previous governments due to the corruption within government entities. Why will the army/airforce/establishment choose a commercial aircarft crash as a battle field with Imran Khan? If anything it adds credence to the fact that PIA needs magnanimous change. The aircraft crashing is not the CEO's fault, if anything it proves what he has been saying right, PIA needs professional changes within its structure which this crash investigation can kick start.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
Heinkel
Posts: 246
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 12:30 pm

LABA wrote:
Safety v/s privacy - that's all that there is to it. There is no problem in having transit buses with 10 cameras inside and yet in the isolated environment of an airplane 36000 feet in the air, privacy is a concern?


There is no right on privacy, when a pilot / flight crew crashes an airliner and kills pax and people on the ground.

Everything, which is technically possible should be done to help the investigation and to avoid such accidents and incidents in future.

The era of the Sky Gods should be over.
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1325
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:10 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 12:30 pm

maint123 wrote:
Emirates773ER wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Exactly what I wrote a few days back but seems to have been deleted by the mods. Below is the extract from Pakistan's main English newspaper- Dawn
"Accompanied by Information Minister Nasir Shah at the press conference, Sindh Education Minister Saeed Ghani expressed lack of confidence in the official body formed to investigate the plane crash. “All members of the investigation committee are subordinates to the PIA chief,” he said, referring to the fact that majority of the team members belonged to the Pakistan Air Force and PIA chief Arshad Malik was a serving Air Marshal of the PAF.
Mr Ghani wondered what would be the purpose of an investigation when the PIA chief had already sorted out all the matters. He demanded that the current investigation team be abolished and a new team with representatives of Palpa and international pilots’ body be formed."
https://www.dawn.com/news/1559592/airbu ... crash-site


Sindh's Education Minister telling us about a lack of confidence is the height of hypocrisy. PIA has been destroyed by the civilian authorities that have run this airline since the 90's. Majority of the people given positions are not even degree holders to begin with. Arshad Malik was brought in to repair the airlines image and sort out the unions who have been black mailing PIA for decades. He has done a valiant job by turning it into a profiting entity to start with. This plane crash inquiry is also expected to bring further scrutiny on people within the organization who are thoroughly unskilled for the rules they occupy.

And secondly, Pakistan is not a military state. The past civilian governments have brought pakistan onto its haunches and now the current government of Imran Khan is helping to clean out the mess with the help of the army to get Pakistan on track.

Without going off topic, can the PM imran Khan sack the army chief ? If not then he is in power at the mercy of the army.
But this topic is on the independence of the crash enquiry. A civilian aircraft has crashed, but the constituted enquiry committee is dominated by defense guys ? This does not happen anywhere in the world.
Are the airforce guys more familiar with the Airbus than the civilians who are operating them day in day out ? Their is no logic in stacking it full of defense personnel.
And suddenly after a week , the news comes out that the CVR is not found. It's all unbelievable. Typical setup to absolve the favorites of any culpability and to probably save the acting PIA ceo(a serving airforce guy) neck.


Can Imran Khan sack the army chief? Yes he can. Conspiracy theories of the army running Imran Khan have long been running with zero credibility. The army chief is symbolic position that heads the establishment. He is not a dictator.

Was it a civilian pilot who operated the airbus day in and day out while crashing it? PIA is well known to harbor people without any degrees or qualifications. Should they be put in charge of this investigation? Airbus will be taking part in the investigation themselves, do you expect the CEO of PIA to twist airbus's hand to alter the report?

The idea of any investigation team is to have investigative experience which you will not find within PIA or any other Pakistani CAA body, proof being no accident report has ever been made public. The CEO of PIA has no reason to hide the CVR. He is the one who has been sacking PIA officials in the first place for mis-conduct. Shocking that some how the very guy who is turning PIA around is now culprit?

The downing of PIA gives more power to the CEO than ever before to bring in sweeping changes. He was recently re-instated by the supreme court after the high court removed him from the post based on false allegations by PIA unions.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
889091
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 2:13 pm

OK, CVR has gone AWOL.

What about the FDR and QAR?
 
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litz
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 4:08 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
clancy688 wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:

They were optimists.


Maybe that and... If you are about to crash somewhere else than on a runway anyway, every joule of energy which goes into ripping the landing gear apart is one joule less which goes into hurting the passengers...


Well, the gear gets shoved up into the plane on impact, I think. Not necessarily good.

The BA 777 Heathrow crash is an example of what can happen to extended gear on impact.

"During the impact and short ground roll, the nose gear collapsed, the right main gear separated from the aircraft, penetrating the central fuel tank and cabin space, and the left main gear was pushed up through the wing."


The energy absorbed, though, in all that happening ... that's largely why you had a intact fuselage sitting there, and a whole bunch of living survivors of the crash.
 
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litz
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 4:10 pm

AA757223 wrote:
I wonder whether the thrust levers were idle or beginning to spool back up at moment of touchdown. I would think an A320 at idle touching the ground would decelerate quickly. To the contrary, the LOT 767 that did a gear up landing seemed to take awhile to decelerate. I’m only judging on the video so I’m purely guessing.


LOT was prepped and knowingly landed gear up. The airplane was specifically configured to land in that configuration.

An airplane that is powering through a TOGO, is going to plow along under full power.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 4:39 pm

Emirates773ER wrote:
PIA is well known to harbor people without any degrees or qualifications. Should they be put in charge of this investigation?


Is this surprising considering this country is the same one that harbored the 2000's most wanted person?
 
VV
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 5:02 pm

889091 wrote:
OK, CVR has gone AWOL.

What about the FDR and QAR?


The CVR cannot go far away, can it?
 
hinckley
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 5:56 pm

Emirates773ER wrote:
What does history have to do with today? We are not living in 1999. Pakistan has been a democracy for more than a decade with three governments changing hands.

Huh? . . . What? What does history have to do with today? Pakistan has been a democracy for more than a decade so everything's A-OK?? You're either drinking the Kool-Aid or more probably, mixing it and trying to distribute it. Let's stick to facts . . .
Pakistan had a civilian government for 11 years before the first military coup in '58 (that's more than a decade)
Pakistan had a civilian government for 11 years before the third military coup in '99 (that's more than a decade)
Pakistan had several attempted military coups during the in-between years.

I'm not saying that the generals are in charge today. I and many many others hope for the best for Khan's reform efforts. But Pakistan's military has ruled the country for almost half of its existence as an independent country. So history has a lot to do with today. History does, and has, repeated itself several times in Pakistan. Let's hope that's ended. My discussion with you on this topic certainly has.
 
debonair
Posts: 3837
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 6:05 pm

VV wrote:
[The CVR cannot go far away, can it?


This is off-topic, but yes it can go far away: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d1c737e&opt=0
The investigation determined, that both FDR and CVR had repeatedly been moved between Nordwind's warehouse and the aircraft VQ-BRS and had been installed on VP-BHN.


Also, I remember the LAUDA B767 crash in BKK years ago, that local residents moved away parts of the engine for the scrap value of copper...
 
lalib
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Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:48 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 6:43 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
Emirates773ER wrote:
PIA is well known to harbor people without any degrees or qualifications. Should they be put in charge of this investigation?


Is this surprising considering this country is the same one that harbored the 2000's most wanted person?


Oh yes that geezer was a Saudi (best buds with the USA) not a Pakistani.

And just because he was found outside a military barracks in Pakistan doesn't mean the Pakistani Government were harboring him.

In fact it's more of an incentive to hand him over to the US and get something in return. Bin laden was a liability and of no benefit to Pakistan.
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 10:08 pm

can one rule out that they simply dont have CVRs installed?
only empty housings?

kinda .... better safe then sorry

or is this too far fetched?
 
Ammad
Posts: 330
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed May 27, 2020 10:40 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:

Is this surprising considering this country is the same one that harbored the 2000's most wanted person?


Right, the same guy friend of USA in 80's when fighting proxy war for them against Russia.

But again, focus on topic.-- Thanks.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 1:01 am

Emirates773ER wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Emirates773ER wrote:

Sindh's Education Minister telling us about a lack of confidence is the height of hypocrisy. PIA has been destroyed by the civilian authorities that have run this airline since the 90's. Majority of the people given positions are not even degree holders to begin with. Arshad Malik was brought in to repair the airlines image and sort out the unions who have been black mailing PIA for decades. He has done a valiant job by turning it into a profiting entity to start with. This plane crash inquiry is also expected to bring further scrutiny on people within the organization who are thoroughly unskilled for the rules they occupy.

And secondly, Pakistan is not a military state. The past civilian governments have brought pakistan onto its haunches and now the current government of Imran Khan is helping to clean out the mess with the help of the army to get Pakistan on track.

Without going off topic, can the PM imran Khan sack the army chief ? If not then he is in power at the mercy of the army.
But this topic is on the independence of the crash enquiry. A civilian aircraft has crashed, but the constituted enquiry committee is dominated by defense guys ? This does not happen anywhere in the world.
Are the airforce guys more familiar with the Airbus than the civilians who are operating them day in day out ? Their is no logic in stacking it full of defense personnel.
And suddenly after a week , the news comes out that the CVR is not found. It's all unbelievable. Typical setup to absolve the favorites of any culpability and to probably save the acting PIA ceo(a serving airforce guy) neck.


Can Imran Khan sack the army chief? Yes he can. Conspiracy theories of the army running Imran Khan have long been running with zero credibility. The army chief is symbolic position that heads the establishment. He is not a dictator.

Was it a civilian pilot who operated the airbus day in and day out while crashing it? PIA is well known to harbor people without any degrees or qualifications. Should they be put in charge of this investigation? Airbus will be taking part in the investigation themselves, do you expect the CEO of PIA to twist airbus's hand to alter the report?

The idea of any investigation team is to have investigative experience which you will not find within PIA or any other Pakistani CAA body, proof being no accident report has ever been made public. The CEO of PIA has no reason to hide the CVR. He is the one who has been sacking PIA officials in the first place for mis-conduct. Shocking that some how the very guy who is turning PIA around is now culprit?

The downing of PIA gives more power to the CEO than ever before to bring in sweeping changes. He was recently re-instated by the supreme court after the high court removed him from the post based on false allegations by PIA unions.

What everyone wants is a transparent investigation so that any faults in the aircraft can be identified and measures taken. Its essential for the thousands of A320s flying. And if the pilots are at fault or the maintenance procedures have to be updated, all these have to be highlighted before another fatal crash.
Pakistan is the only country with a serving airforce guy as the head of a civilian airline, except maybe north korea.
How can airforce guys have more experience than the civilians who operate the A320 ? Are no civilians from aviation trustworthy in a country of 220 m ? Maybe retired PIA pilots or engineers.
You have already made it a civilian vs army contest & dont find it abnormal ? How can you claim PIA has no investigative experience after such regular crashes in Pakistan ? And how will they get experience if they are never included in such investigations ?
And the world knows the present army chief has extended his tenure by 3 years post retirement age. Does not happen in a supposed democratic setup.
Also pl explain why the army chief heads the "establishment " in a democratic country ?
Airbus should be allowed to take the lead in the investigation rather than be a supporting agency.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 1:29 am

asdf wrote:
can one rule out that they simply dont have CVRs installed?
only empty housings?

kinda .... better safe then sorry

or is this too far fetched?


That seems very unlikely, but we do seem to be in bizarro land with this accident...
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 2:59 am

Aesma wrote:
Saintor wrote:
This youtube channel insinuates that the gear lever was actually lowered. They claim to rely on official statements and eye witnesses. I wonder where they took that.

At about 4m.
https://youtu.be/oUOn6FrDPwg?t=240


The plane crashed with the landing gear down, I didn't see any doubt about that, so yes the lever would be down.

What we'd want to be sure about is the state of the lever just before the first landing attempt, but that will have to wait for the deciphering of the recorders.


Nitpick but the gear can be down without the gear lever being down if you use gravity extension. The procedure includes moving the lever down once the gear is downlocked but that doesn't move the gear in this case. Moving the lever is to a) ensure controls correspond to reality and b) so there are no surprises once hydraulics are repressurised.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Aesma
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 3:22 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Saintor wrote:
This youtube channel insinuates that the gear lever was actually lowered. They claim to rely on official statements and eye witnesses. I wonder where they took that.

At about 4m.
https://youtu.be/oUOn6FrDPwg?t=240


The plane crashed with the landing gear down, I didn't see any doubt about that, so yes the lever would be down.

What we'd want to be sure about is the state of the lever just before the first landing attempt, but that will have to wait for the deciphering of the recorders.


Nitpick but the gear can be down without the gear lever being down if you use gravity extension. The procedure includes moving the lever down once the gear is downlocked but that doesn't move the gear in this case. Moving the lever is to a) ensure controls correspond to reality and b) so there are no surprises once hydraulics are repressurised.


Thanks, I didn't know that. I watched the video and the guy has made nice animations (including the engines touching the runway) however he affirms without any proof that the crew lowered the gear lever during the first approach, and that the gear didn't go down.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 4:39 am

Aesma wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Aesma wrote:

The plane crashed with the landing gear down, I didn't see any doubt about that, so yes the lever would be down.

What we'd want to be sure about is the state of the lever just before the first landing attempt, but that will have to wait for the deciphering of the recorders.


Nitpick but the gear can be down without the gear lever being down if you use gravity extension. The procedure includes moving the lever down once the gear is downlocked but that doesn't move the gear in this case. Moving the lever is to a) ensure controls correspond to reality and b) so there are no surprises once hydraulics are repressurised.


Thanks, I didn't know that. I watched the video and the guy has made nice animations (including the engines touching the runway) however he affirms without any proof that the crew lowered the gear lever during the first approach, and that the gear didn't go down.


It is a well-made video, but as you say I don't know if it corresponds to the facts. A lot seems rather speculative.

If the gear didn't extend they should have gone around, performed a gravity extension, and come back for another approach. This would only take a few minutes. I can't see any reason to just decide to belly land instead.

I really don't understand why they didn't cancel the master warning. As I mentioned above you can't cancel this particular aural warning with the button, but you can use EMER CANC on the ECAM control panel.

Side note: The transition to Emergency Electrical Config in the video after both engines flamed out is a nice touch.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
speedbird52
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 5:16 am

Emirates773ER wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Emirates773ER wrote:

Sindh's Education Minister telling us about a lack of confidence is the height of hypocrisy. PIA has been destroyed by the civilian authorities that have run this airline since the 90's. Majority of the people given positions are not even degree holders to begin with. Arshad Malik was brought in to repair the airlines image and sort out the unions who have been black mailing PIA for decades. He has done a valiant job by turning it into a profiting entity to start with. This plane crash inquiry is also expected to bring further scrutiny on people within the organization who are thoroughly unskilled for the rules they occupy.

And secondly, Pakistan is not a military state. The past civilian governments have brought pakistan onto its haunches and now the current government of Imran Khan is helping to clean out the mess with the help of the army to get Pakistan on track.

Without going off topic, can the PM imran Khan sack the army chief ? If not then he is in power at the mercy of the army.
But this topic is on the independence of the crash enquiry. A civilian aircraft has crashed, but the constituted enquiry committee is dominated by defense guys ? This does not happen anywhere in the world.
Are the airforce guys more familiar with the Airbus than the civilians who are operating them day in day out ? Their is no logic in stacking it full of defense personnel.
And suddenly after a week , the news comes out that the CVR is not found. It's all unbelievable. Typical setup to absolve the favorites of any culpability and to probably save the acting PIA ceo(a serving airforce guy) neck.


Can Imran Khan sack the army chief? Yes he can. Conspiracy theories of the army running Imran Khan have long been running with zero credibility. The army chief is symbolic position that heads the establishment. He is not a dictator.

Was it a civilian pilot who operated the airbus day in and day out while crashing it? PIA is well known to harbor people without any degrees or qualifications. Should they be put in charge of this investigation? Airbus will be taking part in the investigation themselves, do you expect the CEO of PIA to twist airbus's hand to alter the report?

The idea of any investigation team is to have investigative experience which you will not find within PIA or any other Pakistani CAA body, proof being no accident report has ever been made public. The CEO of PIA has no reason to hide the CVR. He is the one who has been sacking PIA officials in the first place for mis-conduct. Shocking that some how the very guy who is turning PIA around is now culprit?

The downing of PIA gives more power to the CEO than ever before to bring in sweeping changes. He was recently re-instated by the supreme court after the high court removed him from the post based on false allegations by PIA unions.

Pakistani politics make American politics look civilized
 
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gioannis13
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 9:43 am

Just few minutes before was discovered the VCR of aircraft ! Good news ...
SeaSunSex...........
 
Western727
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 11:41 am

gioannis13 wrote:
Just few minutes before was discovered the VCR of aircraft ! Good news ...


This article confirms the CVR was indeed found: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN2341CD
Jack @ AUS
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 12:03 pm

That's small good news in this tragedy.
 
estorilm
Posts: 762
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 1:19 pm

Bambel wrote:
Regarding the extended gear before the crash: what happens if the gear is in its up position and all hydraulic circuits get depressurized?

And regarding the scrap marks: they look more like burns marks to me. Maybe the engines had only contact for a short time and then spilled burning fluids on the RW?

Nevertheless.. some kind of "miracle" that this plane got airborn again..

B.

Well if they selected "gear down" they'd get the master warning and ECAM message for "L/G GEAR NOT DOWN" and run L/G GEAR ABNORMAL CONDITION checklist. With no hyd they'd have a ton of other messages as well, plus if both circuits depressurize they'd lose flight controls so gear would be the least of their concerns. If you mean losing engine-driven pumps, then the RAT would keep them in the air and they can gravity-drop the gear very easily with 3 turns of the manual gear drop handle on the center pedestal. It's worth noting that "ADVISE ATC" and "FOAM RUNWAY IF POSSIBLE" are on this checklist, obviously neither of which were done here. ECAM pulls these things up for them also.

Aesma wrote:
If that fall from 200kts to 150kts at 9:38:49Z is when they got the gear down (and pulled up a bit it seems) then they were gliding fine for a belly landing or might have even been able to get the gear down later, but by doing it then they doomed themselves.

Agreed - should have put it down when it was up, and should have left it up when they put it down - not sure how far it would have got them, but anything was better than the middle of that dense building area... plus I'm sure it had a large impact on vertical speed. If anything I'd rather get my flaps out and get to alpha max just before impact.

889091 wrote:
After the 3rd scrape/bounce on the runway, would the A320 have reverted to Direct Law? Or Alternate Law?

If the former, could it be a repeat of SU1492 again, whereby they haven't really had much sim time flying the plane in Direct Law and botched the 2nd fatal approach?

Nah, the RAT was out and it still had electrical/hyd power from that - Alternate law probably due to engine failure, but not direct.

One interesting thing to note here is that in alternate law, you lose alpha floor and pretty much all flight protections, and CAN stall the plane. In the video of the final seconds we see the plane pretty much descending into the buildings at what appears to be alpha max / high AoA but definitely not stalled. I wonder if it's possible that one engine was at least making idle thrust to the point where a generator was still on-line and the plane retained alpha prot.

Given the airmanship of the crew up to this point, it's easier for me to imagine them pulling full-aft on the sidestick w/ alpha prot functional in the final moments, than perfectly monitoring their airspeed and preventing a stall (especially given the planes config at the time, and their lack of an accurate absolute stall speed being in alternate law).
 
889091
Posts: 209
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 1:29 pm

Western727 wrote:
gioannis13 wrote:
Just few minutes before was discovered the VCR of aircraft ! Good news ...


This article confirms the CVR was indeed found: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN2341CD


After what I've read in the last 2 pages of this thread, I'd believe it when the BEA cracks it open, downloads the file and confirms that it is the right one from the doomed flight - then I'll check the box that says CVR found....
 
889091
Posts: 209
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 1:32 pm

estorilm wrote:
Bambel wrote:
Regarding the extended gear before the crash: what happens if the gear is in its up position and all hydraulic circuits get depressurized?

And regarding the scrap marks: they look more like burns marks to me. Maybe the engines had only contact for a short time and then spilled burning fluids on the RW?

Nevertheless.. some kind of "miracle" that this plane got airborn again..

B.

Well if they selected "gear down" they'd get the master warning and ECAM message for "L/G GEAR NOT DOWN" and run L/G GEAR ABNORMAL CONDITION checklist. With no hyd they'd have a ton of other messages as well, plus if both circuits depressurize they'd lose flight controls so gear would be the least of their concerns. If you mean losing engine-driven pumps, then the RAT would keep them in the air and they can gravity-drop the gear very easily with 3 turns of the manual gear drop handle on the center pedestal. It's worth noting that "ADVISE ATC" and "FOAM RUNWAY IF POSSIBLE" are on this checklist, obviously neither of which were done here. ECAM pulls these things up for them also.

Aesma wrote:
If that fall from 200kts to 150kts at 9:38:49Z is when they got the gear down (and pulled up a bit it seems) then they were gliding fine for a belly landing or might have even been able to get the gear down later, but by doing it then they doomed themselves.

Agreed - should have put it down when it was up, and should have left it up when they put it down - not sure how far it would have got them, but anything was better than the middle of that dense building area... plus I'm sure it had a large impact on vertical speed. If anything I'd rather get my flaps out and get to alpha max just before impact.

889091 wrote:
After the 3rd scrape/bounce on the runway, would the A320 have reverted to Direct Law? Or Alternate Law?

If the former, could it be a repeat of SU1492 again, whereby they haven't really had much sim time flying the plane in Direct Law and botched the 2nd fatal approach?

Nah, the RAT was out and it still had electrical/hyd power from that - Alternate law probably due to engine failure, but not direct.

One interesting thing to note here is that in alternate law, you lose alpha floor and pretty much all flight protections, and CAN stall the plane. In the video of the final seconds we see the plane pretty much descending into the buildings at what appears to be alpha max / high AoA but definitely not stalled. I wonder if it's possible that one engine was at least making idle thrust to the point where a generator was still on-line and the plane retained alpha prot.

Given the airmanship of the crew up to this point, it's easier for me to imagine them pulling full-aft on the sidestick w/ alpha prot functional in the final moments, than perfectly monitoring their airspeed and preventing a stall (especially given the planes config at the time, and their lack of an accurate absolute stall speed being in alternate law).


The irony is, had they lost all flight envelope protection and had the pilot flying been pulling back on the yoke (ala Colgan), they would've have just stalled and pancaked onto the runway, probably with less loss of life..
 
estorilm
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 3:18 pm

889091 wrote:
estorilm wrote:
Bambel wrote:
Regarding the extended gear before the crash: what happens if the gear is in its up position and all hydraulic circuits get depressurized?

And regarding the scrap marks: they look more like burns marks to me. Maybe the engines had only contact for a short time and then spilled burning fluids on the RW?

Nevertheless.. some kind of "miracle" that this plane got airborn again..

B.

Well if they selected "gear down" they'd get the master warning and ECAM message for "L/G GEAR NOT DOWN" and run L/G GEAR ABNORMAL CONDITION checklist. With no hyd they'd have a ton of other messages as well, plus if both circuits depressurize they'd lose flight controls so gear would be the least of their concerns. If you mean losing engine-driven pumps, then the RAT would keep them in the air and they can gravity-drop the gear very easily with 3 turns of the manual gear drop handle on the center pedestal. It's worth noting that "ADVISE ATC" and "FOAM RUNWAY IF POSSIBLE" are on this checklist, obviously neither of which were done here. ECAM pulls these things up for them also.

Aesma wrote:
If that fall from 200kts to 150kts at 9:38:49Z is when they got the gear down (and pulled up a bit it seems) then they were gliding fine for a belly landing or might have even been able to get the gear down later, but by doing it then they doomed themselves.

Agreed - should have put it down when it was up, and should have left it up when they put it down - not sure how far it would have got them, but anything was better than the middle of that dense building area... plus I'm sure it had a large impact on vertical speed. If anything I'd rather get my flaps out and get to alpha max just before impact.

889091 wrote:
After the 3rd scrape/bounce on the runway, would the A320 have reverted to Direct Law? Or Alternate Law?

If the former, could it be a repeat of SU1492 again, whereby they haven't really had much sim time flying the plane in Direct Law and botched the 2nd fatal approach?

Nah, the RAT was out and it still had electrical/hyd power from that - Alternate law probably due to engine failure, but not direct.

One interesting thing to note here is that in alternate law, you lose alpha floor and pretty much all flight protections, and CAN stall the plane. In the video of the final seconds we see the plane pretty much descending into the buildings at what appears to be alpha max / high AoA but definitely not stalled. I wonder if it's possible that one engine was at least making idle thrust to the point where a generator was still on-line and the plane retained alpha prot.

Given the airmanship of the crew up to this point, it's easier for me to imagine them pulling full-aft on the sidestick w/ alpha prot functional in the final moments, than perfectly monitoring their airspeed and preventing a stall (especially given the planes config at the time, and their lack of an accurate absolute stall speed being in alternate law).


The irony is, had they lost all flight envelope protection and had the pilot flying been pulling back on the yoke (ala Colgan), they would've have just stalled and pancaked onto the runway, probably with less loss of life..

Eh I think at that point they had plenty of speed, and based on the radar charts they had plenty of power (fast climb and speed increase) so I think really any plane would have behaved the same way. We'll see when they read the FDR, but I don't think they triggered any protections till after they lost the engines.

The whole runway thing - I can't even imagine being seated aft of the engines with enough visibility to see not only the lack of MLG, but watching the lower cowl get torn to pieces. THREE TIMES. Oh yeah, then we're up in the air again so it's not even like the ordeal is over or anything. Not even close. :( I hate all crashes, but the ones where the pax had to know... that's the worse.
 
ratp101
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm

This accident investigation now appears open in BEA webpage...
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20034
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu May 28, 2020 11:30 pm

estorilm wrote:
889091 wrote:
After the 3rd scrape/bounce on the runway, would the A320 have reverted to Direct Law? Or Alternate Law?

If the former, could it be a repeat of SU1492 again, whereby they haven't really had much sim time flying the plane in Direct Law and botched the 2nd fatal approach?

Nah, the RAT was out and it still had electrical/hyd power from that - Alternate law probably due to engine failure, but not direct.

One interesting thing to note here is that in alternate law, you lose alpha floor and pretty much all flight protections, and CAN stall the plane. In the video of the final seconds we see the plane pretty much descending into the buildings at what appears to be alpha max / high AoA but definitely not stalled. I wonder if it's possible that one engine was at least making idle thrust to the point where a generator was still on-line and the plane retained alpha prot.

Given the airmanship of the crew up to this point, it's easier for me to imagine them pulling full-aft on the sidestick w/ alpha prot functional in the final moments, than perfectly monitoring their airspeed and preventing a stall (especially given the planes config at the time, and their lack of an accurate absolute stall speed being in alternate law).


Good point about the high pitch attitude but stable flight path in the final moments. As you say they may have had an engine producing some power.

Even in alternate law, though, they'd still have the stall warning speed on the speed tape, and the aural stall warning. Obviously, this won't help you if you just pull full back, but you can use it to stay above the stall.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Elementalism
Posts: 602
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 1:02 am

Heard they were coming in way too high and fast. Crossed the threshold at 210 knots.
 
F9Animal
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 2:53 am

Someone asked about cameras in the cockpit? I am a firm believer that cameras would be an excellent tool for many purposes. Especially accidents or close calls. I also believe it would really help in finding causes into fatal accidents.

So the CVR was found! Speaking of cameras, is there not any CCTV systems at the airport? Isn't the airport also a military base? It would be interesting to see if the suspicions on the first attempt could be answered with footage.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 3:59 am

F9Animal wrote:
Someone asked about cameras in the cockpit? I am a firm believer that cameras would be an excellent tool for many purposes. Especially accidents or close calls. I also believe it would really help in finding causes into fatal accidents.

So the CVR was found! Speaking of cameras, is there not any CCTV systems at the airport? Isn't the airport also a military base? It would be interesting to see if the suspicions on the first attempt could be answered with footage.


It would indeed be interesting. But the DFDR will have the data either way.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
syan
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 6:06 am

Just saying, they were probably weren't in alternate law on impact, as they had the landing gear down and it switches from alternate to direct when you have the gear down.
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 10:35 am

Another Pakistani plane crashed in Rawalpindi last year killing 18 people , including 13 civilians on the ground. This year Pakistan has had 6 airforce crashes already till april and that's pretty high considering their fleet size and flying hours.
Can countries impose no flying restrictions on foreign airlines if they feel the safety rating of the airline or country is low ? I know for new planes permission from countries is required sometimes.
Have these safety related flying restrictions ever been imposed, for purely non political reasons ? Dont quote 737 max , only airlines or countries.
 
B737MAX
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 11:03 am

Heinkel wrote:
LABA wrote:
Safety v/s privacy - that's all that there is to it. There is no problem in having transit buses with 10 cameras inside and yet in the isolated environment of an airplane 36000 feet in the air, privacy is a concern?


There is no right on privacy, when a pilot / flight crew crashes an airliner and kills pax and people on the ground.

Everything, which is technically possible should be done to help the investigation and to avoid such accidents and incidents in future.

The era of the Sky Gods should be over.


I also believe a camera should be recording you while driving your car. For the same reasons...
 
SpoonNZ
Posts: 31
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 11:51 am

B737MAX wrote:

I also believe a camera should be recording you while driving your car. For the same reasons...

Pretty commonplace around the world in taxis and buses now, right?
 
mxaxai
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 12:28 pm

maint123 wrote:
Can countries impose no flying restrictions on foreign airlines if they feel the safety rating of the airline or country is low ? I know for new planes permission from countries is required sometimes.
Have these safety related flying restrictions ever been imposed, for purely non political reasons ? Dont quote 737 max , only airlines or countries.

Yes, EASA and FAA monitor the safety of airlines and airline regulators worldwide. They do sometimes ban foreign airlines from entering US or EU airspace, for example check out the 'EU airline blacklist' or the FAA tier rating. The FAA gave Thailand a category 2 rating, so no new routes could be opened between Thailand and the US. Indonesia got placed on the EU blacklist for a few years as well.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/ai ... /search_en

This doesn't mean that all banned airlines are unsafe, but usually the national regulator lacks the oversight or procedures to verify that these airlines are safe. Pakistan's CAA appears to be sufficiently well organised to meet FAA / EASA expectations.
 
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Aesma
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 2:09 pm

The EU blacklist is there to protect EU citizens, that's why it even includes airlines that have no intention to fly to the EU.

However usually the fear is not that the airline will have a crash in EU airspace or airport.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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zeke
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri May 29, 2020 2:28 pm

Heinkel wrote:

There is no right on privacy, when a pilot / flight crew crashes an airliner and kills pax and people on the ground.

Everything, which is technically possible should be done to help the investigation and to avoid such accidents and incidents in future.

The era of the Sky Gods should be over.


This comment is not correct. Aircraft are not public property, there is every expectation for privacy for anyone onboard.

The technical reality is that a video camera in a cockpit is not going to be effective. The lighting conditions are not consistent, and there is not a lot you can see for example if a camera placed on the back wall facing the front, you are not going to pickup any detail on the screens or pilot controls.
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