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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:05 am

AT wrote:
It seems that the events following the initial landing attempt are not really in question, nor that the plane was too fast and high on its first attempt (on historyofpia, they report interview with the air traffic controller confirming this too.

The only question mark remains the "why" -- why the plane landed without its gear. Three options- 1. the pilots forgot to lower it; 2. they did think they lowered it but the gear did't lower because they were too fast; or 3; they did actually lower it but during the go-around it retracted too quickly before the engines could spool up.
The last option seems less likely as there would have been significant damage on the gear doors.

I can't believe it has been 11 days.



Speculation:
- Scenario 1) seems the most likely one to me, given the generally rushed impression of the approach.
- Scenario 2) seems unlikely. Looking at the FR24 data, they were never too fast to lower the gear. Certainly not on final.
- Scenario 3) seems quite possible as well. An important part of the go-around procedure (and the take-off for that matter) is to ensure "positive climb" before raising the gear. Both vertical speed and radar altimeter height increasing must be checked.

There are more question marks than just the gear. Why were they unstable? Why didn't they recognise that they were unstable and go around early? What CRM, company culture, and training factors contributed to their decision making?

11 days is nothing in an accident investigation.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Avgeek21
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:16 am

@ HVN2HEL2LAX. Gear down check is not universal.

Correct but especially in Pakistan it is still widely used. I fly there a lot and I’d say 90% of the time It’s used. Close to always used on smaller regional airports. I have no issue with it. Controllers in Pakistan are very nice guys/girls on the radio.

When you fly in this general area for a while you’ll understand why what happened, happened. And will happen again. Generalizing a bit but those that are around here will know.

CCTV is no solution. This is just a ‘single pilot show’ that f*cked up. I’ve never come across anything this risky myself in my decade here but I’ve heard the stories, over and over again. Mostly at very small non expat carriers though. Not something like PIA.
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:07 am

Avgeek21 wrote:
When you fly in this general area for a while you’ll understand why what happened, happened. And will happen again. Generalizing a bit but those that are around here will know.


But the question is why? Why is this something they don't want to fix? Why do they keep behaving/operating with this attitude? Why no regard for their life, moreover their PAXs' life?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:04 am

HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
When you fly in this general area for a while you’ll understand why what happened, happened. And will happen again. Generalizing a bit but those that are around here will know.


But the question is why? Why is this something they don't want to fix? Why do they keep behaving/operating with this attitude? Why no regard for their life, moreover their PAXs' life?


It typically comes down to culture. It can be very difficult for a professional to break through his or her own cultural biases. Especially if his or her training does not actively promote "good aviation values".

To be clear, issues with culture in aviation are by no means limited to this region of the world. And multi-crew commercial operations are challenging for anyone to get used to regardless of background.

Apologies if I step on anyone's toes with the following very general remarks, which are not specifically about this society or this accident.
- The value of the authority gradient in society as a whole plays a part. If authority is seen as something that should not be challenged, this rapidly leads to poor CRM. On the other hand, if the authority gradient in society is very flat, like in Scandinavia for example, CRM tends not to create problems. The FO feels comfortable pointing out something that the CN has missed, and the captain is happy that he did so. The fact that something was missed by the CN is not seen as trying to make him lose face nor is it seen to detract from his authority. Contrast with a couple of notorious accidents in South Korea where the FO obviously saw that something was wrong but kept quiet even though it meant his own death not to say anything.
- The value of substance vs face in society as a whole plays a part. In Western Europe generally, for example, competence is seen as something to strive for in itself. So people motivate themselves and are, in general terms, evaluated based on competence. In other societies, for example Mainland China, image carries much more weight. Having a Harvard degree may be more important in a job interview than actually having the experience and competence to do the job.

Of course, people from any culture vary widely. So you can't just say, "pilots from culture x are bad pilots because of cultural trait y". Which is why accident investigations must look at specifics, not generalisations.

The importance of good training, which follows industry best practice, cannot be overstated. Industry best practice, in the form of ICAO recommendations and so forth, has been developed based on decades of scientific study and operational experience. Why many operators choose to "do their own thing" regardless is evidently also down to culture. Specifically "not invented here" syndrome.

But I digress.
Last edited by Starlionblue on Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Avgeek21
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:06 am

Starlionblue wrote:
HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
When you fly in this general area for a while you’ll understand why what happened, happened. And will happen again. Generalizing a bit but those that are around here will know.


But the question is why? Why is this something they don't want to fix? Why do they keep behaving/operating with this attitude? Why no regard for their life, moreover their PAXs' life?


It typically comes down to culture. It can be very difficult for a professional to break through his or her own cultural biases. Especially if his or her training does not actively promote "good aviation values".

To be clear, issues with culture in aviation are by no means limited to this region of the world. And multi-crew commercial operations are challenging for anyone to get used to regardless of background.

Two very general remarks, and not specifically about this society or this accident.
- The value of the authority gradient in society as a whole plays a part. If authority is seen as something that should not be challenged, this rapidly leads to poor CRM. On the other hand, if the authority gradient in society is very flat, like in Scandinavia for example, CRM tends not to create problems. The FO feels comfortable pointing out something that the CN has missed, and the captain is happy that he did so. The fact that something was missed by the CN is not seen as trying to make him lose face nor is it seen to detract from his authority. Contrast with a couple of notorious accidents in South Korea where the FO obviously saw that something was wrong but kept quiet even though it meant his own death not to say anything.
- The value of substance vs face in society as a whole plays a part. In a society like, say, the UK, competence is seen as something to strive for in itself. So people motivate themselves and are, in general terms, evaluated based on competence. In other societies, for example Mainland China, image carries much more weight. Having a Harvard degree is more important than actually having the competence to do the job.


Beautifully put and sums up the core. This is why.
 
DH106
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:13 am

My theory is that they lowered the gear early to facilitate the large descent rate, then during an extremely late, rushed & confused landing checklist, toggled the gear back up on the 'Gear Down' call. It's clear that whatever happened - there wasn't any "3 greens" check.
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark by the Tanhauser Gate....
 
Icaro
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:40 am

There’s another possibility. What if they tried a low pass, but did not calculate it properly? Could that be? They would be aware of the landing gear position thus ignoring all the warnings.
Maybe their plan from the beginning was to go around but didn’t want to ask for permission in case it was denied.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:42 am

Icaro wrote:
There’s another possibility. What if they tried a low pass, but did not calculate it properly? Could that be? They would be aware of the landing gear position thus ignoring all the warnings.
Maybe their plan from the beginning was to go around but didn’t want to ask for permission in case it was denied.


A low pass seems far-fetched. If you planned on a low pass you'd also plan on pressing EMER CANC to cancel the warning.

ATC can deny a request for a low pass, but go-arounds are not denied by ATC. That would go against the whole idea of go-arounds.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Superboi
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:05 am

Icaro wrote:
There’s another possibility. What if they tried a low pass, but did not calculate it properly? Could that be? They would be aware of the landing gear position thus ignoring all the warnings.
Maybe their plan from the beginning was to go around but didn’t want to ask for permission in case it was denied.


I mentioned this earlier in the thread and that also may explain the speed which they had for the first approach.
 
Icaro
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:57 am

Starlionblue wrote:
go-arounds are not denied by ATC.


I didn´t mean that they intended to ask for permission for a go around. The go around would be a way of doing their intended low pass without having to ask for permission.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:05 pm

Icaro wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
go-arounds are not denied by ATC.


I didn´t mean that they intended to ask for permission for a go around. The go around would be a way of doing their intended low pass without having to ask for permission.


No. No pilot of sound mind would even attempt an approach being so high, so close in, so fast and not anywhere near configured and let alone having any hopes of being stabilized. And yes, I'm a Commercial Airline Captain flying a very similar jet, in the same region.

A trace like this is fun in the sim when you have 10 spare minutes. Not in real life.

The only thing that happend is that there was 1 guy in a now single pilot cockpit fixated on doing the impossible. Everyone else was along for the ride. This can't be stopped by camera's in the flightdeck or anything. It's a modern jet flown with the wrong mindset that ultimately ended up killing everyone. The errors in this Swiss cheese lined up long before.

I'd love to read the CVR transcript of their approach briefing...
 
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par13del
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:28 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
I'd love to read the CVR transcript of their approach briefing...

...you think they had a briefing?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:08 pm

Icaro wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
go-arounds are not denied by ATC.


I didn´t mean that they intended to ask for permission for a go around. The go around would be a way of doing their intended low pass without having to ask for permission.


Why would they intend to do a low pass?

I'll echo Avgeek21's comment about "a pilot of sound mind". No responsible professional performs a low pass completely unplanned and unannounced, in a commercial operation, with passengers on board.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
dacia123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:40 pm

Hi all,

I found this video on youtube, which gives a good and uptodate summary of the currently know facts and open questions:

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76osJupy_P8
Channel: Captain Mayday

Best video concerning PK8303 I found so far on youtube. Its fact-based, highlights open questions and it is entertaining (depite the surely depressing topic).
Thought its worth sharing, while everybody is waiting for the official investigation results.

Best,
 
DH106
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:20 pm

It's clear from the extended 3x scrapes along the runway that the pilots expected the gear to be down & were attempting to land rather than a low pass. The very high descent rate during the approach lends belief that the gear was perhaps down at that point, but was then retracted prior to the landing. Why??. Perhaps in a very rushed & chaotic landing checklist, the gear was - without thinking - toggled, instead of being positively selected down.
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark by the Tanhauser Gate....
 
ltbewr
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:08 pm

Unless a mechanical, electrical or autopilot error can be determined, there is no doubt the pilots screwed up big time, tried to cover their terrible mistake on and from the 1st attempt and continued their failures on the 2nd attempt leading to the crash. It showed terrible CRM and possible fears of being fired from their screw up.
 
F9Animal
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:18 pm

Is it me or is there very little update on this? Not even an update from Pakistan or anyone associated with the crash giving updates?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Avgeek21
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:03 pm

par13del wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
I'd love to read the CVR transcript of their approach briefing...

...you think they had a briefing?


I’m always a fan of a bit of sarcasm myself.
 
gregpodpl
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:48 pm

I think this is new:
"Pakistani aviation authority says PIA pilot ignored air traffic control
Pakistani aviation authorities have told Pakistan International Airlines that the pilot of a passenger plane that crashed into a residential district of Karachi last month had ignored air traffic control’s instructions for landing, a PIA spokesman said on Wednesday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN23A2ZH
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:54 pm

gregpodpl wrote:
I think this is new:
"Pakistani aviation authority says PIA pilot ignored air traffic control
Pakistani aviation authorities have told Pakistan International Airlines that the pilot of a passenger plane that crashed into a residential district of Karachi last month had ignored air traffic control’s instructions for landing, a PIA spokesman said on Wednesday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN23A2ZH


As far as we know, they were not given an instruction to go around, so saying they "ignored air traffic control" seem a bit... incomplete. From what I can tell, at best they disregarded some not very forceful hints.

ATC is not without blame IMHO. Given how extremely high and fast they were on profile, I personally think the controller should have just told them to go around. While pilots are responsible for flight path, if ATC sees a dangerous situation, they should not just sit there and let it happen. This was well beyond "coming in a little bit hot". At the very least, the controller should have been more insistent in the instruction to turn in order to increase the track miles.

The statement from PIA gives me the impression that they are throwing the crew under the bus.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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par13del
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:26 am

Starlionblue wrote:
ATC is not without blame IMHO.

It would be interesting to know if ATC saw the gear down on approach, that would clear up some of the speculation of the initial landing attempt.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:50 am

Starlionblue wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
I think this is new:
"Pakistani aviation authority says PIA pilot ignored air traffic control
Pakistani aviation authorities have told Pakistan International Airlines that the pilot of a passenger plane that crashed into a residential district of Karachi last month had ignored air traffic control’s instructions for landing, a PIA spokesman said on Wednesday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN23A2ZH


As far as we know, they were not given an instruction to go around, so saying they "ignored air traffic control" seem a bit... incomplete. From what I can tell, at best they disregarded some not very forceful hints.

ATC is not without blame IMHO. Given how extremely high and fast they were on profile, I personally think the controller should have just told them to go around. While pilots are responsible for flight path, if ATC sees a dangerous situation, they should not just sit there and let it happen. This was well beyond "coming in a little bit hot". At the very least, the controller should have been more insistent in the instruction to turn in order to increase the track miles.

The statement from PIA gives me the impression that they are throwing the crew under the bus.


Correct. But that comes back to the same core as before. ATC gave 2 hints I believe that were both overridden by the crew. It’s incredibly hard In this region for someone to stand their ground and so; “this/you are wrong”. They’ll rather do nothing or say yes and wait and see what happens. I’m sure the controller realized that what PIA did was something he had never seen a commercial jet do before. I’m also sure all alarm bells were ringing in his head. But he was never forceful and really spoke up. Same same as the FO.

I feel for the poor guy. I really do. All he had to do was keep saying; “PIA 8303, go-around. I say again go-around.” Or; “ negative, turn left heading xyz and maintain altitude 3,500ft.”

I also wonder if he was alone in the tower or there was a supervisor on shift too. I have a feeling no one was actually watching him out the window comeing in. Visibility can be a bit of an issue at times but this was a perfectly fine day.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:22 am

Avgeek21 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
I think this is new:
"Pakistani aviation authority says PIA pilot ignored air traffic control
Pakistani aviation authorities have told Pakistan International Airlines that the pilot of a passenger plane that crashed into a residential district of Karachi last month had ignored air traffic control’s instructions for landing, a PIA spokesman said on Wednesday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN23A2ZH


As far as we know, they were not given an instruction to go around, so saying they "ignored air traffic control" seem a bit... incomplete. From what I can tell, at best they disregarded some not very forceful hints.

ATC is not without blame IMHO. Given how extremely high and fast they were on profile, I personally think the controller should have just told them to go around. While pilots are responsible for flight path, if ATC sees a dangerous situation, they should not just sit there and let it happen. This was well beyond "coming in a little bit hot". At the very least, the controller should have been more insistent in the instruction to turn in order to increase the track miles.

The statement from PIA gives me the impression that they are throwing the crew under the bus.


Correct. But that comes back to the same core as before. ATC gave 2 hints I believe that were both overridden by the crew. It’s incredibly hard In this region for someone to stand their ground and so; “this/you are wrong”. They’ll rather do nothing or say yes and wait and see what happens. I’m sure the controller realized that what PIA did was something he had never seen a commercial jet do before. I’m also sure all alarm bells were ringing in his head. But he was never forceful and really spoke up. Same same as the FO.

I feel for the poor guy. I really do. All he had to do was keep saying; “PIA 8303, go-around. I say again go-around.” Or; “ negative, turn left heading xyz and maintain altitude 3,500ft.”

I also wonder if he was alone in the tower or there was a supervisor on shift too. I have a feeling no one was actually watching him out the window comeing in. Visibility can be a bit of an issue at times but this was a perfectly fine day.


Indeed.

It will be interesting to see what the report says about ATC actions, and lessons to be learned, if any.

par13del wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
I'd love to read the CVR transcript of their approach briefing...

...you think they had a briefing?


Ouch. 8-)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
MPadhi
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:45 pm

dacia123 wrote:
Hi all,

I found this video on youtube, which gives a good and uptodate summary of the currently know facts and open questions:

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76osJupy_P8
Channel: Captain Mayday

Best video concerning PK8303 I found so far on youtube. Its fact-based, highlights open questions and it is entertaining (depite the surely depressing topic).
Thought its worth sharing, while everybody is waiting for the official investigation results.

Best,


Thanks for the link, that was a really excellently made video. Shame there aren't more on the channel of a similar nature on other accidents - these visualisations really helped.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:38 pm

MPadhi wrote:
dacia123 wrote:
Hi all,

I found this video on youtube, which gives a good and uptodate summary of the currently know facts and open questions:

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76osJupy_P8
Channel: Captain Mayday

Best video concerning PK8303 I found so far on youtube. Its fact-based, highlights open questions and it is entertaining (depite the surely depressing topic).
Thought its worth sharing, while everybody is waiting for the official investigation results.

Best,


Thanks for the link, that was a really excellently made video. Shame there aren't more on the channel of a similar nature on other accidents - these visualisations really helped.


It is a well-produced video, and it covers the basic facts as we know them now. However, we are very far from knowing for certain what actually happened.

It does seem to me that the author is most likely neither an airline pilot nor more specifically an Airbus pilot.
- He disconnects the AP and AT by using the FCU pushbuttons. This is just wrong. You must always use the instinctive disconnect buttons on the stick and the thrust levers respectively.
- He calls it "the MCP". On the A320 (and the A330) it is "the FCU".
- He says the RAT powers both electrics and hydraulics. AFAIK A320 RAT only powers one hydraulic system. which in turn powers electrics.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Antarius
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:11 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
When you fly in this general area for a while you’ll understand why what happened, happened. And will happen again. Generalizing a bit but those that are around here will know.


But the question is why? Why is this something they don't want to fix? Why do they keep behaving/operating with this attitude? Why no regard for their life, moreover their PAXs' life?


It typically comes down to culture. It can be very difficult for a professional to break through his or her own cultural biases. Especially if his or her training does not actively promote "good aviation values".

To be clear, issues with culture in aviation are by no means limited to this region of the world. And multi-crew commercial operations are challenging for anyone to get used to regardless of background.

Apologies if I step on anyone's toes with the following very general remarks, which are not specifically about this society or this accident.
- The value of the authority gradient in society as a whole plays a part. If authority is seen as something that should not be challenged, this rapidly leads to poor CRM. On the other hand, if the authority gradient in society is very flat, like in Scandinavia for example, CRM tends not to create problems. The FO feels comfortable pointing out something that the CN has missed, and the captain is happy that he did so. The fact that something was missed by the CN is not seen as trying to make him lose face nor is it seen to detract from his authority. Contrast with a couple of notorious accidents in South Korea where the FO obviously saw that something was wrong but kept quiet even though it meant his own death not to say anything.
- The value of substance vs face in society as a whole plays a part. In Western Europe generally, for example, competence is seen as something to strive for in itself. So people motivate themselves and are, in general terms, evaluated based on competence. In other societies, for example Mainland China, image carries much more weight. Having a Harvard degree may be more important in a job interview than actually having the experience and competence to do the job.

Of course, people from any culture vary widely. So you can't just say, "pilots from culture x are bad pilots because of cultural trait y". Which is why accident investigations must look at specifics, not generalisations.

The importance of good training, which follows industry best practice, cannot be overstated. Industry best practice, in the form of ICAO recommendations and so forth, has been developed based on decades of scientific study and operational experience. Why many operators choose to "do their own thing" regardless is evidently also down to culture. Specifically "not invented here" syndrome.

But I digress.


But this comes back to management. KE had a huge culture problem, with non existent CRM and former military hierarchies permeating their cockpits. That changed due to a top down effort to force it.

I agree some cultural aspects are more compatible with good CRM. But ultimately, it needs to get done. Everything else is an excuse.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
AT
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:16 pm

Antarius wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:

But the question is why? Why is this something they don't want to fix? Why do they keep behaving/operating with this attitude? Why no regard for their life, moreover their PAXs' life?


It typically comes down to culture. It can be very difficult for a professional to break through his or her own cultural biases. Especially if his or her training does not actively promote "good aviation values".

To be clear, issues with culture in aviation are by no means limited to this region of the world. And multi-crew commercial operations are challenging for anyone to get used to regardless of background.

Apologies if I step on anyone's toes with the following very general remarks, which are not specifically about this society or this accident.
- The value of the authority gradient in society as a whole plays a part. If authority is seen as something that should not be challenged, this rapidly leads to poor CRM. On the other hand, if the authority gradient in society is very flat, like in Scandinavia for example, CRM tends not to create problems. The FO feels comfortable pointing out something that the CN has missed, and the captain is happy that he did so. The fact that something was missed by the CN is not seen as trying to make him lose face nor is it seen to detract from his authority. Contrast with a couple of notorious accidents in South Korea where the FO obviously saw that something was wrong but kept quiet even though it meant his own death not to say anything.
- The value of substance vs face in society as a whole plays a part. In Western Europe generally, for example, competence is seen as something to strive for in itself. So people motivate themselves and are, in general terms, evaluated based on competence. In other societies, for example Mainland China, image carries much more weight. Having a Harvard degree may be more important in a job interview than actually having the experience and competence to do the job.

Of course, people from any culture vary widely. So you can't just say, "pilots from culture x are bad pilots because of cultural trait y". Which is why accident investigations must look at specifics, not generalisations.

The importance of good training, which follows industry best practice, cannot be overstated. Industry best practice, in the form of ICAO recommendations and so forth, has been developed based on decades of scientific study and operational experience. Why many operators choose to "do their own thing" regardless is evidently also down to culture. Specifically "not invented here" syndrome.

But I digress.


But this comes back to management. KE had a huge culture problem, with non existent CRM and former military hierarchies permeating their cockpits. That changed due to a top down effort to force it.

I agree some cultural aspects are more compatible with good CRM. But ultimately, it needs to get done. Everything else is an excuse.



Exactly. Korean Air is a good example. May be PIA can consult with KE (or with Emirates, who with a shorter history and a substantially more massive fleet hasn't had a single fatality and only one write off) and come up with a solid, enforceable and accountable plan of action. PIA trying to police itself is a losing battle.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:04 pm

AT wrote:
Exactly. Korean Air is a good example. May be PIA can consult with KE (or with Emirates, who with a shorter history and a substantially more massive fleet hasn't had a single fatality and only one write off) and come up with a solid, enforceable and accountable plan of action. PIA trying to police itself is a losing battle.

It appears that PIA is also strongly influenced by a military culture so I wouldn't hold your breath for any meaningful changes to PIA's culture whilst that remains the case. Now if PIA was blacklisted from the EU, UK & US then maybe some permanent changes might happen.... or maybe still not. Anyway this is somewhat off-topic.
 
AT
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:45 am

SamYeager2016 wrote:
AT wrote:
Exactly. Korean Air is a good example. May be PIA can consult with KE (or with Emirates, who with a shorter history and a substantially more massive fleet hasn't had a single fatality and only one write off) and come up with a solid, enforceable and accountable plan of action. PIA trying to police itself is a losing battle.

It appears that PIA is also strongly influenced by a military culture so I wouldn't hold your breath for any meaningful changes to PIA's culture whilst that remains the case. Now if PIA was blacklisted from the EU, UK & US then maybe some permanent changes might happen.... or maybe still not. Anyway this is somewhat off-topic.


yes that is exactly my point- if they have an external body NOT associated with current status quo directing them, that's the only way out of this. Allowing the military culture to continue is a recipe for (continuing) disaster.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:56 am

SamYeager2016 wrote:
AT wrote:
Exactly. Korean Air is a good example. May be PIA can consult with KE (or with Emirates, who with a shorter history and a substantially more massive fleet hasn't had a single fatality and only one write off) and come up with a solid, enforceable and accountable plan of action. PIA trying to police itself is a losing battle.

It appears that PIA is also strongly influenced by a military culture so I wouldn't hold your breath for any meaningful changes to PIA's culture whilst that remains the case. Now if PIA was blacklisted from the EU, UK & US then maybe some permanent changes might happen.... or maybe still not. Anyway this is somewhat off-topic.

PIA is not influenced as much as controlled by military personnel in higher positions. The present CEO is a serving airforce guy. And this setup is throughout Pakistan, with many industries and organizations manned at the top by mostly retired defence personnel. Issue is that incase of non performance, its always the junior civilians getting the blame or stick , while the top man is never held accountable. It's not going to change as the army will protect its turf and Pakistan is too important for western countries like uk ,usa , who prefer a pliant military regime in Pakistan than a non pliant messy democracy like India for example.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1272211
Now this link is for industries directly under the army , does not include the organizations which retired or serving officers head.
 
klkla
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:14 am

Starlionblue wrote:
The cameras in the inflight entertainment system show the outside, not the inside.


Not exactly:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/cath ... index.html
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:02 am

https://www.dawn.com/news/1561428/caa-a ... r-to-crash

Interesting is this -
"The release of the preliminary probe report on the Karachi incident would be followed by release of reports on the Chitral crash, Gilgit crash-landing, and crashes of the planes of Air Blue and Bhoja Air in Islamabad, he added."

Such old crashes still under wraps.
 
tvarad
Posts: 38
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:03 am

Avgeek21 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
I think this is new:
"Pakistani aviation authority says PIA pilot ignored air traffic control
Pakistani aviation authorities have told Pakistan International Airlines that the pilot of a passenger plane that crashed into a residential district of Karachi last month had ignored air traffic control’s instructions for landing, a PIA spokesman said on Wednesday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN23A2ZH


As far as we know, they were not given an instruction to go around, so saying they "ignored air traffic control" seem a bit... incomplete. From what I can tell, at best they disregarded some not very forceful hints.

ATC is not without blame IMHO. Given how extremely high and fast they were on profile, I personally think the controller should have just told them to go around. While pilots are responsible for flight path, if ATC sees a dangerous situation, they should not just sit there and let it happen. This was well beyond "coming in a little bit hot". At the very least, the controller should have been more insistent in the instruction to turn in order to increase the track miles.

The statement from PIA gives me the impression that they are throwing the crew under the bus.


Correct. But that comes back to the same core as before. ATC gave 2 hints I believe that were both overridden by the crew. It’s incredibly hard In this region for someone to stand their ground and so; “this/you are wrong”. They’ll rather do nothing or say yes and wait and see what happens. I’m sure the controller realized that what PIA did was something he had never seen a commercial jet do before. I’m also sure all alarm bells were ringing in his head. But he was never forceful and really spoke up. Same same as the FO.

I feel for the poor guy. I really do. All he had to do was keep saying; “PIA 8303, go-around. I say again go-around.” Or; “ negative, turn left heading xyz and maintain altitude 3,500ft.”

I also wonder if he was alone in the tower or there was a supervisor on shift too. I have a feeling no one was actually watching him out the window comeing in. Visibility can be a bit of an issue at times but this was a perfectly fine day.


From what I have read, the ATC cannot deny a pilot's insistence on going through with a landing unless he/she determines that there is something unsafe in the airport itself like a plane on the runway. The reasoning behind this is that the ATC does not know what is going on within the airplane itself and the pilots may be making split-second decisions so they cannot communicate all the details to the tower. Five minutes is an eternity in case of a airliner emergency. Maybe the ATC thought along these lines when he gave the OK for the landing event though he had asked them to go around previously.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19924
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:36 am

tvarad wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

As far as we know, they were not given an instruction to go around, so saying they "ignored air traffic control" seem a bit... incomplete. From what I can tell, at best they disregarded some not very forceful hints.

ATC is not without blame IMHO. Given how extremely high and fast they were on profile, I personally think the controller should have just told them to go around. While pilots are responsible for flight path, if ATC sees a dangerous situation, they should not just sit there and let it happen. This was well beyond "coming in a little bit hot". At the very least, the controller should have been more insistent in the instruction to turn in order to increase the track miles.

The statement from PIA gives me the impression that they are throwing the crew under the bus.


Correct. But that comes back to the same core as before. ATC gave 2 hints I believe that were both overridden by the crew. It’s incredibly hard In this region for someone to stand their ground and so; “this/you are wrong”. They’ll rather do nothing or say yes and wait and see what happens. I’m sure the controller realized that what PIA did was something he had never seen a commercial jet do before. I’m also sure all alarm bells were ringing in his head. But he was never forceful and really spoke up. Same same as the FO.

I feel for the poor guy. I really do. All he had to do was keep saying; “PIA 8303, go-around. I say again go-around.” Or; “ negative, turn left heading xyz and maintain altitude 3,500ft.”

I also wonder if he was alone in the tower or there was a supervisor on shift too. I have a feeling no one was actually watching him out the window comeing in. Visibility can be a bit of an issue at times but this was a perfectly fine day.


From what I have read, the ATC cannot deny a pilot's insistence on going through with a landing unless he/she determines that there is something unsafe in the airport itself like a plane on the runway. The reasoning behind this is that the ATC does not know what is going on within the airplane itself and the pilots may be making split-second decisions so they cannot communicate all the details to the tower. Five minutes is an eternity in case of a airliner emergency. Maybe the ATC thought along these lines when he gave the OK for the landing event though he had asked them to go around previously.


This was the first approach. They insisted they were "comfortable" but they had not declared mayday since there was no emergency. ATC could indeed tell them to make an orbit, go around or whatever. You can't disobey a clearance unless you have an emergency, which they did not at the time.

ATC can and will deny a "pilot's insistence on going through with a landing". For example, if you are too close to the preceding aircraft and they tell you to go around you can't insist and go ahead. Unless, again, you have an emergency.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
shez
Posts: 1
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:00 pm

Can someone check that this flight was never with Tower, only Approach, so he may never have seen the wheels up event if he was in front of the scope and not seeing the aircraft.
 
Airbii
Posts: 19
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:53 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
It is a well-produced video, and it covers the basic facts as we know them now. However, we are very far from knowing for certain what actually happened.

It does seem to me that the author is most likely neither an airline pilot nor more specifically an Airbus pilot.
- He disconnects the AP and AT by using the FCU pushbuttons. This is just wrong. You must always use the instinctive disconnect buttons on the stick and the thrust levers respectively.
- He calls it "the MCP". On the A320 (and the A330) it is "the FCU".
- He says the RAT powers both electrics and hydraulics. AFAIK A320 RAT only powers one hydraulic system. which in turn powers electrics.


1. I assume the author does this because in home computer flight simulators it is the easiest method to do. There's really no "must always." In practice we do turn the AP off by pushing the red AP Disc button on the sidestick. For the AT, many guys will match the thrust lever position with the thrust demanded and push the red AT disconnect button (match and smash). But if I'm descending and the power is at idle and I want AT off, I just bring the thrust levers all the way back to idle. That disconnects AT too. You could push the A/THR pushbutton on the FCU but that will result in a thrust lock caution and you'll have to take an additional step to disconnect them, so no one pushes the A/THR button on the FCU. However, it's probably effective and easy to do on a home computer flight simulator for simplicity purposes.

2. The RAT provides power to the emergency generator. Initially when you lose both engines you only have batteries which will power the AC Essential Bus and DC Essential Bus. Once the RAT is deployed, spinning, and energizing, (takes about 8 seconds total), then you'll get two more busses back online - the shed busses: AC Essential Shed bus and DC Essential Shed bus. It is also providing Blue hydraulic power.

Since it wasn't a fuel starvation, throwing the APU on would have absolutely helped them. Not sure if they did or not, time will tell.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:47 pm

shez wrote:
Can someone check that this flight was never with Tower, only Approach, so he may never have seen the wheels up event if he was in front of the scope and not seeing the aircraft.


I remember reading that very thing and thought it odd. Maybe he never handed him off to tower because he knew he would talking to them again in a second anyway after the Go Around. j/k .... (sort of).
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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Boeing757100
Posts: 166
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:50 pm

May we all pray for those who lost their lives in this accident that could have possibly been avoided.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:55 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
I think this is new:
"Pakistani aviation authority says PIA pilot ignored air traffic control
Pakistani aviation authorities have told Pakistan International Airlines that the pilot of a passenger plane that crashed into a residential district of Karachi last month had ignored air traffic control’s instructions for landing, a PIA spokesman said on Wednesday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-paki ... SKBN23A2ZH


As far as we know, they were not given an instruction to go around, so saying they "ignored air traffic control" seem a bit... incomplete. From what I can tell, at best they disregarded some not very forceful hints.

ATC is not without blame IMHO. Given how extremely high and fast they were on profile, I personally think the controller should have just told them to go around. While pilots are responsible for flight path, if ATC sees a dangerous situation, they should not just sit there and let it happen. This was well beyond "coming in a little bit hot". At the very least, the controller should have been more insistent in the instruction to turn in order to increase the track miles.

The statement from PIA gives me the impression that they are throwing the crew under the bus.


I work in the middle of Europe, and I have attempted this myself when seeing an approach profile that in my opinion would never be stabilized. I got an ear full on frequency from the pilots when I attempted to vector them to add track miles. They went around. I greeted them heartily on the missed and we did it all again.

What I am more interested in and to me is far more important than a dogleg vector, is why the TWR controller didn't notice there was no gear... I check every single flight on my final for wheels, without exception. That's my JOB. What annoys me is crews with wheels down and no NLG lights at night... It is so hard to see and timeously warn. I just ask for lights. But it's more workload.

That statement makes me think they know the crew screwed the pooch badly and it's gonna need a whitehouse spin doctor to deflect.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19924
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:51 pm

Airbii wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
It is a well-produced video, and it covers the basic facts as we know them now. However, we are very far from knowing for certain what actually happened.

It does seem to me that the author is most likely neither an airline pilot nor more specifically an Airbus pilot.
- He disconnects the AP and AT by using the FCU pushbuttons. This is just wrong. You must always use the instinctive disconnect buttons on the stick and the thrust levers respectively.
- He calls it "the MCP". On the A320 (and the A330) it is "the FCU".
- He says the RAT powers both electrics and hydraulics. AFAIK A320 RAT only powers one hydraulic system. which in turn powers electrics.


1. I assume the author does this because in home computer flight simulators it is the easiest method to do. There's really no "must always." In practice we do turn the AP off by pushing the red AP Disc button on the sidestick. For the AT, many guys will match the thrust lever position with the thrust demanded and push the red AT disconnect button (match and smash). But if I'm descending and the power is at idle and I want AT off, I just bring the thrust levers all the way back to idle. That disconnects AT too. You could push the A/THR pushbutton on the FCU but that will result in a thrust lock caution and you'll have to take an additional step to disconnect them, so no one pushes the A/THR button on the FCU. However, it's probably effective and easy to do on a home computer flight simulator for simplicity purposes.

2. The RAT provides power to the emergency generator. Initially when you lose both engines you only have batteries which will power the AC Essential Bus and DC Essential Bus. Once the RAT is deployed, spinning, and energizing, (takes about 8 seconds total), then you'll get two more busses back online - the shed busses: AC Essential Shed bus and DC Essential Shed bus. It is also providing Blue hydraulic power.

Since it wasn't a fuel starvation, throwing the APU on would have absolutely helped them. Not sure if they did or not, time will tell.


1. If you disconnect the AP or AT with the pushbutton on the FCU you get an ECAM warning so definitely not the way to do it. However, agreed in flight sim might be simpler.

2. I am fairly certain the RAT only powers the blue system, which in turn powers the emergency generator. The RAT does not directly power the electrics. Semantics but this is tech_ops. ;)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1854
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:31 am

dacia123 wrote:
Hi all,

I found this video on youtube, which gives a good and uptodate summary of the currently know facts and open questions:

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76osJupy_P8
Channel: Captain Mayday

Best video concerning PK8303 I found so far on youtube. Its fact-based, highlights open questions and it is entertaining (depite the surely depressing topic).
Thought its worth sharing, while everybody is waiting for the official investigation results.

Best,



Uh... are some of you paid by the poster to praise this video? I had to stop it after 30 seconds, its horrible. He at least owns up that its his first video and the sounds is too high in the background. You can barely hear the narration.

Hopefully they redo the video with better sound and editing.
xx
 
pecevanne
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:54 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:10 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Airbii wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
It is a well-produced video, and it covers the basic facts as we know them now. However, we are very far from knowing for certain what actually happened.

It does seem to me that the author is most likely neither an airline pilot nor more specifically an Airbus pilot.
- He disconnects the AP and AT by using the FCU pushbuttons. This is just wrong. You must always use the instinctive disconnect buttons on the stick and the thrust levers respectively.
- He calls it "the MCP". On the A320 (and the A330) it is "the FCU".
- He says the RAT powers both electrics and hydraulics. AFAIK A320 RAT only powers one hydraulic system. which in turn powers electrics.


1. I assume the author does this because in home computer flight simulators it is the easiest method to do. There's really no "must always." In practice we do turn the AP off by pushing the red AP Disc button on the sidestick. For the AT, many guys will match the thrust lever position with the thrust demanded and push the red AT disconnect button (match and smash). But if I'm descending and the power is at idle and I want AT off, I just bring the thrust levers all the way back to idle. That disconnects AT too. You could push the A/THR pushbutton on the FCU but that will result in a thrust lock caution and you'll have to take an additional step to disconnect them, so no one pushes the A/THR button on the FCU. However, it's probably effective and easy to do on a home computer flight simulator for simplicity purposes.

2. The RAT provides power to the emergency generator. Initially when you lose both engines you only have batteries which will power the AC Essential Bus and DC Essential Bus. Once the RAT is deployed, spinning, and energizing, (takes about 8 seconds total), then you'll get two more busses back online - the shed busses: AC Essential Shed bus and DC Essential Shed bus. It is also providing Blue hydraulic power.

Since it wasn't a fuel starvation, throwing the APU on would have absolutely helped them. Not sure if they did or not, time will tell.


1. If you disconnect the AP or AT with the pushbutton on the FCU you get an ECAM warning so definitely not the way to do it. However, agreed in flight sim might be simpler.

2. I am fairly certain the RAT only powers the blue system, which in turn powers the emergency generator. The RAT does not directly power the electrics. Semantics but this is tech_ops. ;)

There is not a a normal procedure to disconnect the A/THR or AP from the pushbutton on FCU.
Normal procedure is to disconnect A/ PILOT from the side stick red pushbutton and A/THR from the red pushbutton on THR thrust levers.
 
Airbii
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:48 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:33 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Airbii wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

1. If you disconnect the AP or AT with the pushbutton on the FCU you get an ECAM warning so definitely not the way to do it. However, agreed in flight sim might be simpler.

2. I am fairly certain the RAT only powers the blue system, which in turn powers the emergency generator. The RAT does not directly power the electrics. Semantics but this is tech_ops. ;)





The person I quoted said you "must always" use the instinctive pushbuttons. I told that person you are not prohibited from using the FCU to disconnect the autopilot, rather, the author of that film probably did it because it was easier to do so in the simulator. In real life, pushing the red AP disconnect button will trigger a momentary red master warning flash and a AP disconnect chime. The same thing with pushing the instinctive A/THR disconnect on the thrust levers, you get a master caution single chime. In normal hand flying the AP disconnect button is used on the sidestick. For the A/THR disconnect depending on the situation you can match the levers with the current thrust output and hit the A/THR instinctive disconnect button, or just bring the thrust levers all the way to idle and it will disconnect.

For the second point, no this is not the tech_ops forum. I just tried to keep it simple in layman terms for the RAT powering electrics. But to your point yes, deploying the RAT will pressurize the Blue Hyd system which will then power a hydraulic motor which runs the Emergency generator.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19924
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:19 am

Airbii wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Airbii wrote:





The person I quoted said you "must always" use the instinctive pushbuttons. I told that person you are not prohibited from using the FCU to disconnect the autopilot, rather, the author of that film probably did it because it was easier to do so in the simulator. In real life, pushing the red AP disconnect button will trigger a momentary red master warning flash and a AP disconnect chime. The same thing with pushing the instinctive A/THR disconnect on the thrust levers, you get a master caution single chime. In normal hand flying the AP disconnect button is used on the sidestick. For the A/THR disconnect depending on the situation you can match the levers with the current thrust output and hit the A/THR instinctive disconnect button, or just bring the thrust levers all the way to idle and it will disconnect.

For the second point, no this is not the tech_ops forum. I just tried to keep it simple in layman terms for the RAT powering electrics. But to your point yes, deploying the RAT will pressurize the Blue Hyd system which will then power a hydraulic motor which runs the Emergency generator.


Oops. It is indeed not tech_ops. Totally forgot. :oops:
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
889091
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:40 pm

https://www.airlive.net/french-bea-conf ... s-is-over/

With a pic of the FDR. The squarish casing on the left looks pretty charred up from the fire.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:36 pm

889091 wrote:
https://www.airlive.net/french-bea-confirms-technical-work-of-pia-pk8303-black-boxes-is-over/

With a pic of the FDR. The squarish casing on the left looks pretty charred up from the fire.


CVR?

https://www.airlive.net/breaking-the-co ... und-today/
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:28 am

usxguy wrote:
dacia123 wrote:
Hi all,

I found this video on youtube, which gives a good and uptodate summary of the currently know facts and open questions:

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76osJupy_P8
Channel: Captain Mayday

Best video concerning PK8303 I found so far on youtube. Its fact-based, highlights open questions and it is entertaining (depite the surely depressing topic).
Thought its worth sharing, while everybody is waiting for the official investigation results.

Best,



Uh... are some of you paid by the poster to praise this video? I had to stop it after 30 seconds, its horrible. He at least owns up that its his first video and the sounds is too high in the background. You can barely hear the narration.

Hopefully they redo the video with better sound and editing.


What exactly is wrong? Maybe you should have gone past 30 seconds
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
889091
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:21 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
889091 wrote:
https://www.airlive.net/french-bea-confirms-technical-work-of-pia-pk8303-black-boxes-is-over/

With a pic of the FDR. The squarish casing on the left looks pretty charred up from the fire.


CVR?

https://www.airlive.net/breaking-the-co ... und-today/


I stand corrected. The rectangular part of the device is longer for the FDR than it is for the CVR (assuming they are both manufactured by Honeywell)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsbcanada/16361613563
 
exfss
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:54 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:18 pm

Finally, the way I see it, is , pilot ego kill again...
No question is stupid.Only answers can be.
 
Ammad
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:10 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:06 am

exfss wrote:
Finally, the way I see it, is , pilot ego kill again...


Seems like pure cockpit failure. Clear weather, Fuel available, Engine power available before series of incidents starts happening, but Aircraft crashed. Very rare in Aviation history.

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