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AirlineCritic
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:17 am

What do you mean? Cockpit failures are the most common accident cause. Or did you mean cockpit failure in otherwise entirely unimpeded situation (no weather, no fuel shortage, no equipment failures)?
 
Ammad
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:42 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
What do you mean? Cockpit failures are the most common accident cause. Or did you mean cockpit failure in otherwise entirely unimpeded situation (no weather, no fuel shortage, no equipment failures)?


Yes, i mean cockpit failure while unconstrained situation.
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:04 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiat ... 2020-06-22

Initial report out.
Presented in Pakistan "parliament " today.
Both pilot and ATC blamed.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:22 pm

What a bunch of BS. There is only ONE thing to blame in this event and that is the culture in the cockpit in PIA and those pilots (mostly Captains) who have kept this culture going. The real solution is to fire everyone in management positions in PIA flight operations and replace them with a younger generation with a more professional CRM orientated attitude. This will obviously also require bringing in foreigners to help as the culture is so ingrained that Pakistanis alone will not be able to do the job.

Anyone who has flown in this region knows exactly what its like. And unfortunately since Pakistan is essentially a Militaristic autocracy the chances of there being any positive changes in PIA or in any other industry is zero. The best hope is the opening up of a privately owned airline that would be free of the ex Military/Air Force guys. This is what has happened in India in the last 20 years with the opening up of rhe low costs. None of the old school at places like Air India and Jet would go there so they were able to foster a much more professional attitude within the pilots. Unfortunately for Pakistan their economy is in such a shambles there's no incentive or money to be made for investors in opening up a new airline.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:24 pm

maint123 wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/pia-flight-8303-crash-initial-probe-pilot-atc-fault-1691584-2020-06-22

Initial report out.
Presented in Pakistan "parliament " today.
Both pilot and ATC blamed.


ATC to blame?

"...the ATC should have been more forceful about the flight's unstable initial approach...."

WTF?
ATC did more than i would have expect from an ATC in that region ...

"more forecful" than giving the vectors for a new aproach?
what could that be?

AAMs?

ATC has not the responsibility for the aircraft
there was no objectiv reason to revoke the landing clearance

its the flight crews job to deside if the approach is stable
onle the flight crews
 
F9Animal
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:48 pm

maint123 wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/pia-flight-8303-crash-initial-probe-pilot-atc-fault-1691584-2020-06-22

Initial report out.
Presented in Pakistan "parliament " today.
Both pilot and ATC blamed.


WTF? ATC? Are you kidding me? That is just insanity. I suppose ATC should have known their gear was not down too, and told them not to attempt a go around after sliding across part of the runway. Let's just blame ATC for the crews incompetence! UGHHHHH.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
NIKV69
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:25 pm

F9Animal wrote:
maint123 wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/pia-flight-8303-crash-initial-probe-pilot-atc-fault-1691584-2020-06-22

Initial report out.
Presented in Pakistan "parliament " today.
Both pilot and ATC blamed.


WTF? ATC? Are you kidding me? That is just insanity. I suppose ATC should have known their gear was not down too, and told them not to attempt a go around after sliding across part of the runway. Let's just blame ATC for the crews incompetence! UGHHHHH.


Scary. I mean he just forgot his gear? Didn't hear the alarm?
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Antarius
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:30 pm

F9Animal wrote:
maint123 wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/pia-flight-8303-crash-initial-probe-pilot-atc-fault-1691584-2020-06-22

Initial report out.
Presented in Pakistan "parliament " today.
Both pilot and ATC blamed.


WTF? ATC? Are you kidding me? That is just insanity. I suppose ATC should have known their gear was not down too, and told them not to attempt a go around after sliding across part of the runway. Let's just blame ATC for the crews incompetence! UGHHHHH.


Clearly ATC should have worn a jetpack, launched up to the aircraft, opened the door and taken control and landed the plane.

Slackers were just sitting in the tower...
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
LTC8K6
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:44 pm

From ARY News:

Quote:
Aviation Division refutes PK-8303 reports aired on media, nothing released yet
On Jun 22, 2020 Last updated Jun 22, 2020

ISLAMABAD: Aviation Division of the country has refuted various news stories airing on media channels and social media as possible investigative report of PIA’s flight PK-8303 crash, ARY News reported on Monday.

Spokesperson of the aviation division categorically stated that the institute has released no such investigative work on the national tragedy and termed the news stories being aired in their name by various news outlets as incorrect.

Multiple news media outlets of the country had run stories on the matter claiming that the investigative report compiled by the aviation division held the pilot and air traffic controller of the ill-fated PK-8303 crash responsible for the harrowing incident that engulfed 97 lives.

It must be noted that Prime Minister Imran Khan had asked the federal minister for aviation, Ghulam Sarwar Khan to produce the investigative report by Monday (today).

Ghulam Sarwar Khan had assured the prime minister of bringing forth the preliminary report and presenting it to the premier, sources privy to the development claimed in the past.

On May 22, flight PK-8303 crashed in Model Colony near the Jinnah International Airport in Karachi, two passengers miraculously survived out of the 99 onboard.
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:29 pm

Horrible quality, but photos have emerged of the aircraft's engines scraping the runway:

Image

What were these idiot pilots doing in a cockpit?!? And of an A320 no less!!

(Source: https://twitter.com/historyofpia1)
Last flown aircraft: DH8D OE-LGN < DH8D OE-LGI < E195 OE-LWE < DH8D OE-LGI < A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117
 
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:24 pm

delete
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
889091
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:51 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Horrible quality, but photos have emerged of the aircraft's engines scraping the runway:

Image

What were these idiot pilots doing in a cockpit?!? And of an A320 no less!!

(Source: https://twitter.com/historyofpia1)


I wonder why these images have only surfaced now?
 
pecevanne
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:27 am

Poor CRM?
Poor crew discipline?
What about training?
May be all.
 
NIKV69
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:29 am

889091 wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Horrible quality, but photos have emerged of the aircraft's engines scraping the runway:

Image

What were these idiot pilots doing in a cockpit?!? And of an A320 no less!!

(Source: https://twitter.com/historyofpia1)


I wonder why these images have only surfaced now?


Yikes! Incredible.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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klm617
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:37 am

At the very least the people in the tower should have advised the aircraft that the gear was retracted, Should someone in the tower not be responsible for watching the inbound aircraft that are landing and the outbound departures for any issue that should arise. If 8303 did not call a head that they were going to have to make a belly landing it should of gotten the attention of somebody in the tower that the gear were not down.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:43 am

klm617 wrote:
At the very least the people in the tower should have advised the aircraft that the gear was retracted, Should someone in the tower not be responsible for watching the inbound aircraft that are landing and the outbound departures for any issue that should arise. If 8303 did not call a head that they were going to have to make a belly landing it should of gotten the attention of somebody in the tower that the gear were not down.


Can't always see the gear. That thing aircraft manufacturers included with the airplane called a gear horn should have been a clue. Unlike the cup holders, gear horn is usually standard.
 
Dominion301
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:56 am

NIKV69 wrote:
889091 wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Horrible quality, but photos have emerged of the aircraft's engines scraping the runway:

Image

What were these idiot pilots doing in a cockpit?!? And of an A320 no less!!

(Source: https://twitter.com/historyofpia1)


I wonder why these images have only surfaced now?


Yikes! Incredible.


Yeah and if only they’d stayed on the ground with a gear up landing. 99% probability all lives would have been saved with probably no more than a few bumps and bruises...especially a couple of bruised egos up front. My first question would be “was pilot fatigue likely?”.
 
tcfc424
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:31 am

It's amazing to me that the aircraft was even able to get airborne again after that aborted "landing." It makes me think back to UA232. I know completely different situations, but IIRC, the information was loaded into the simulator and no one was able to accomplish what Captain Haynes did in regards of survivability. Would a sim even allow the aircraft to become airborne again? If not, what would the result be?

Outside of that curiosity, this seems to be a textbook example of poor airmanship, poor CRM, and a culture that is not beneficial to commercial aviation. It would be my hope that this crash will be a catalyst for change, though I am not at all convinced that it will be. I forget what the catalyst was for Korean, but that was relatively successful until the OZ crash in SFO.
 
KFTG
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:52 am

tcfc424 wrote:
It's amazing to me that the aircraft was even able to get airborne again after that aborted "landing."

Um, what? You're amazed that the two engine nacelles cannot support the weight of a loaded A320?
 
KingOrGod
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:18 am

F9Animal wrote:
maint123 wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/pia-flight-8303-crash-initial-probe-pilot-atc-fault-1691584-2020-06-22

Initial report out.
Presented in Pakistan "parliament " today.
Both pilot and ATC blamed.


WTF? ATC? Are you kidding me? That is just insanity. I suppose ATC should have known their gear was not down too, and told them not to attempt a go around after sliding across part of the runway. Let's just blame ATC for the crews incompetence! UGHHHHH.


The Approach ATC IMO shares no blame here, crew ignored him and kept saying they are comfortable. Our esteemed colleagues in the pointy end are the final say on that, not us radar guys. More forceful my ass.

The Tower ATC, however, should ensure each aircraft he clears to land has landing gear down. The TWR did not say anything that I can see from the reports. That is bad.
 
rrlopes
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:46 am

KFTG wrote:
tcfc424 wrote:
It's amazing to me that the aircraft was even able to get airborne again after that aborted "landing."

Um, what? You're amazed that the two engine nacelles cannot support the weight of a loaded A320?

mmm... I think what he's amazed with is that the engines had sufficient thrust and were in enough working condition to overcome the "rolling resistance" of two nacelles as opposed to the normal six free-spinning tires.

*Edited for clarity
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:52 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Image


Thanks for posting.

The images are slanted in different ways, but it seems that the nose is down a bit, not entirely level. Do others agree? If the nose is down a bit, that is natural of course when there's no nose gear down, and the engines are touching ground. But I wonder about the aerodynamics of this. Must have made it more difficult to get airborne again.
 
dacia123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:58 am

There is another update / summary on the captain mayday channel on YT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu69Lkf9BYc

It is a breakdown of the latest news and also some additional explanation of relevant warning systems during the A320 landing gear operation.
What I found very interesting is the theory that the pilots might have never heard the GPWS "too low gear" warning due to the high speed and the different GPWS modes (I think it is described in one of the last deep-dives if I remember correctly).
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:58 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
The images are slanted in different ways, but it seems that the nose is down a bit, not entirely level. Do others agree? If the nose is down a bit, that is natural of course when there's no nose gear down, and the engines are touching ground. But I wonder about the aerodynamics of this. Must have made it more difficult to get airborne again.


the nose is down because the nacelles slowed the plane and so it geht a nose down momentum

aerodynamics are no problem
they had a lotta speed
the gear was not down so the bus was in normal law, wasnt it?
the computers had control in the background ... they managed to lift the doomed plane of the runway again
 
AAMDanny
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:33 am

This happened right at the end of Ramadan, at circa 1440L, is it possible the pilots judgement was impaired by being hungry?

Or is there dispensations for safety critical roles like pilots? That they can have a small snack before operating.

I mean, when I'm hungry I am known to be irrational!
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:42 am

asdf wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
The images are slanted in different ways, but it seems that the nose is down a bit, not entirely level. Do others agree? If the nose is down a bit, that is natural of course when there's no nose gear down, and the engines are touching ground. But I wonder about the aerodynamics of this. Must have made it more difficult to get airborne again.


the nose is down because the nacelles slowed the plane and so it gets a nose down momentum

aerodynamics are no problem
they had a lotta speed
the gear was not down so the bus was in normal law, wasnt it?
the computers had control in the background ... they managed to lift the doomed plane of the runway again
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:22 am

edit
 
asdf
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:23 am

edit
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:45 pm

Does Pakistan have its own pilot training and certification body or the pilots are trained and certified abroad ?
Because quite a few fatal accidents in pakistan in the last 10 years. And seeing the very low number of flughts , its not a encouraging sight
 
mxaxai
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:17 am

The AvHerald has excerpts from the preliminary report http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0. In brief:
Image
- The crew did not follow standard communication or CRM rules during the entire flight
- The aircraft maintained 240-250 kts until on the glideslope, dropped to 220 kts at 500 ft AGL and crossed the threshold at ~200 kts
- Speed brakes were extended shortly after passing MAKLI and open descent was selected
- Landing gear was extended 10 nm out and was retracted 5 nm out (alongside the speed brakes, when the aircraft intercepted the glideslope)
- multiple gear / ground proximity / overspeed alerts from 500 ft AGL to "touchdown"
- final impact was with gear down, slats extended 1, flaps retracted
 
T4thH
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:34 am

mxaxai wrote:
The AvHerald has excerpts from the preliminary report http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0. In brief:
Image
- The crew did not follow standard communication or CRM rules during the entire flight
- The aircraft maintained 240-250 kts until on the glideslope, dropped to 220 kts at 500 ft AGL and crossed the threshold at ~200 kts
- Speed brakes were extended shortly after passing MAKLI and open descent was selected
- Landing gear was extended 10 nm out and was retracted 5 nm out (alongside the speed brakes, when the aircraft intercepted the glideslope)
- multiple gear / ground proximity / overspeed alerts from 500 ft AGL to "touchdown"
- final impact was with gear down, slats extended 1, flaps retracted


"Controlled flight into belly landing".

Sorry there is no excuse for the cockpit crew, let us throw them under the train.

And after this, let us check, who of the PIA/officials/ responsible/training department e.g. has to follow under the train. Something went already wrong prior, pretty sure this was not the first time, this cockpit crew has made mess. The root cause has pretty sure already started earlier, wrong training, bad control of the crew, ignoring of prior failures of the crew by someone, mismanagement e.g.
 
hooverman
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:02 pm

Why did ATC not hand over the plane to the tower?

h) Since the approach to land was continued, “Karachi Approach” instead of changing over the aircraft to “Aerodrome Control”, sought telephonic landing clearance from the “Aerodrome Control”. The “Aerodrome Control” conveyed a landing clearance of the aircraft (without observing the abnormality that the landing gears were not extended) to “Karachi Approach”. Subsequently “Karachi Approach” cleared the aircraft to land.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:07 pm

Didn't PIA crash their inaugural flight back in 1965 at CAI? Maybe they need to start over.
Cornucopia
 
OMP777X
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:43 pm

RT is reporting the pilots were mainly distracted by talk about the coronavirus. Apparently some family members had it and it preoccupied their minds. I wonder if the pilots themselves may have been ill with COVID-19.

https://on.rt.com/ak90

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:44 pm

Preliminary report in full https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/AAIB-431.pdf

Am I reading this right? They deployed LG, later retracted it and continued the landing to the point of use engine reverse and braking while A/C was scrubbing the runway on its engine ? :eek:
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:58 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53162627
"What is Pakistan's safety record like?
Pakistan has a chequered aviation safety record, including a number of airliner crashes.
In 2010, an aircraft operated by private airline Airblue crashed near Islamabad, killing all 152 people on board - the deadliest air disaster in Pakistani history.
In 2012, a Boeing 737-200 operated by Pakistan's Bhoja Air crashed in bad weather on its approach to land in Rawalpindi, killing all 121 passengers and six crew.
And in 2016, a PIA plane burst into flames while travelling from northern Pakistan to Islamabad, killing 47 people."

Fire the CEO.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:01 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Preliminary report in full https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/AAIB-431.pdf

Am I reading this right? They deployed LG, later retracted it and continued the landing to the point of use engine reverse and braking while A/C was scrubbing the runway on its engine ? :eek:


Yes that is what I have heard from multiple sources.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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Theseus
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:35 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Preliminary report in full https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/AAIB-431.pdf

Am I reading this right? They deployed LG, later retracted it and continued the landing to the point of use engine reverse and braking while A/C was scrubbing the runway on its engine ? :eek:


This is so surprising to me. I did not think that taking off again was an option after reverse deploy, even when using properly the, hum, landing gear.
 
Western727
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:27 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Preliminary report in full https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/SIBReports/AAIB-431.pdf

Am I reading this right? They deployed LG, later retracted it and continued the landing to the point of use engine reverse and braking while A/C was scrubbing the runway on its engine ? :eek:


Whiskey Foxtrot Tango, that preliminary report. WOW. Didn't do the standard callouts earlier? Disregarded ATC's request to do an orbit? Retracted the LG on final? Disregarded the warning horn? Briefly lowered the landing gear selector before raising it again while the engines were scraping the rwy? Simply mind-boggling.

As we all know, it's easy to be armchair pilots (and I'm only a private pilot myself), but that just seems egregious.
Jack @ AUS
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:41 pm

Would the thrust reverse have actually kicked in? I would have thought it would require weight to be present on the landing gear to allow it.
The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut.
 
o0OOO0oChris
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 pm

OMP777X wrote:
RT is reporting the pilots were mainly distracted by talk about the coronavirus. Apparently some family members had it and it preoccupied their minds. I wonder if the pilots themselves may have been ill with COVID-19.

https://on.rt.com/ak90

Best,

OMP777X

This is particularly interesting:
When air traffic control told the pilots the plane was at the wrong altitude to be making a landing, one replied, “I’ll manage,” and returned to discussing the pandemic, the minister said.

While we where discussing about forgetting lowering the landing gear due to total task saturation and being overwhelmed by the very high workload and alert signal galore, what really happend was that they where in a very unstable approach and still decided to continue their discussion about corona even after the controller tried to talk some sense into them.

Just when you think this crash can't get any more bizzare....
 
hinckley
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:04 pm

There's nothing about this event that isn't insane, but do you think that either the pilot or first officer or both thought they were going to go around since both the landing gear and the speed brakes were extended and then 5nm later, both were retracted? And then what?, they forgot about that and continued straight in? Crazy.
 
mxaxai
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:31 pm

hinckley wrote:
There's nothing about this event that isn't insane, but do you think that either the pilot or first officer or both thought they were going to go around since both the landing gear and the speed brakes were extended and then 5nm later, both were retracted? And then what?, they forgot about that and continued straight in? Crazy.

I think that one of them extended the gear for additional drag during the descent. Then when they intercepted the glide slope, a crew member - could be the same or the other one - went through the approach routine "lower the gear" and moved the lever again. Since this is a routine event, possibly even muscle memory, they would not have given it much attention. However, the gear was already extended at this point so instead of lowering the gear, it was unintentionally retracted. Having "lowered" the gear, the following warnings would have been interpreted as false alerts.

Clearly, following the checklists, proper CRM and a "sterile cockpit" philosophy would have prevented this tragedy.
 
hinckley
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:07 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I think that one of them extended the gear for additional drag during the descent. Then when they intercepted the glide slope, a crew member - could be the same or the other one - went through the approach routine "lower the gear" and moved the lever again. Since this is a routine event, possibly even muscle memory, they would not have given it much attention. However, the gear was already extended at this point so instead of lowering the gear, it was unintentionally retracted. Having "lowered" the gear, the following warnings would have been interpreted as false alerts.

That's actually a very logical explanation, although I hesitate to use the word "logical" in any way about this event.
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:16 pm

AAMDanny wrote:
This happened right at the end of Ramadan, at circa 1440L, is it possible the pilots judgement was impaired by being hungry?

Or is there dispensations for safety critical roles like pilots? That they can have a small snack before operating.

I mean, when I'm hungry I am known to be irrational!



During this observance PIA crew are required to consume a "Sweet Drink and Snack " at pushback. I have always wondered about their blood glucose levels based on the seemingly oblivious communications. 3-4,000' above on approach , No Problem. 7,000' FPS descent, No Problem. Dropping the gear at 260+ kts, No Problem. Hitting TOGA while you're scraping along the pavement on your nacelles, No Problem. Did we ever find out if the PIC was EX Pakistan AF? That could explain some of his "I can do anything" attitude. Unfortunately we will never know their Blood Glucose levels.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
DH106
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:32 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:21 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I think that one of them extended the gear for additional drag during the descent. Then when they intercepted the glide slope, a crew member - could be the same or the other one - went through the approach routine "lower the gear" and moved the lever again. Since this is a routine event, possibly even muscle memory, they would not have given it much attention. However, the gear was already extended at this point so instead of lowering the gear, it was unintentionally retracted. Having "lowered" the gear, the following warnings would have been interpreted as false alerts.

Clearly, following the checklists, proper CRM and a "sterile cockpit" philosophy would have prevented this tragedy.


Just as I surmised in replies #604 and #613 earlier in this thread.
The clues were all there - that the crew was obvioulsy expecting the gear to be down can be surmised from the extended & repeated scrapes. The gear was likely down earlier in the approach to facilitate the high rates of descent. So the gear must have been 'inadvertently' retracted.
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark by the Tanhauser Gate....
 
TSA125
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:40 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Didn't PIA crash their inaugural flight back in 1965 at CAI? Maybe they need to start over.


I hardly see how that is relevant to this case...

What's more relevant is their safety record in the 21st century--even within the 2010's. Startling to say the least.
No not that TSA.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2427
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:29 pm

DH106 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
I think that one of them extended the gear for additional drag during the descent. Then when they intercepted the glide slope, a crew member - could be the same or the other one - went through the approach routine "lower the gear" and moved the lever again. Since this is a routine event, possibly even muscle memory, they would not have given it much attention. However, the gear was already extended at this point so instead of lowering the gear, it was unintentionally retracted. Having "lowered" the gear, the following warnings would have been interpreted as false alerts.

Clearly, following the checklists, proper CRM and a "sterile cockpit" philosophy would have prevented this tragedy.


Just as I surmised in replies #604 and #613 earlier in this thread.
The clues were all there - that the crew was obvioulsy expecting the gear to be down can be surmised from the extended & repeated scrapes. The gear was likely down earlier in the approach to facilitate the high rates of descent. So the gear must have been 'inadvertently' retracted.


An Airbus a320 does not let you forget. Even if you forget, you will be reminded repeatedly and loudly.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:16 am

Antarius wrote:
An Airbus a320 does not let you forget. Even if you forget, you will be reminded repeatedly and loudly.

Humans can create strong illusions. We sometimes believe in them until the horrible screech of grinding metal and concrete wakes us from our dream, and we are forced to accept that, in fact, the gear is not down and that we did mistakenly select gear up and that the aircraft was correctly reminding us that we are heading into our doom.


Continuation Bias: The crew was dead set on completing the approach as planned despite being too high and fast, and despite multiple alerts https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Continuation_Bias
Expectation Bias: The crew believed that they had selected gear down because that's what they expected, and did not recognize conflicting cues such as aural warnings https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Fli ... ation_Bias
Cognitive Lockup: The crew was fully occupied with reaching the desired speed and altitude. They did not consider checking other essential parameters, such as the state of the gear. https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Cognitive_Lockup
Emergency Situation: The crew was confronted with high stress and high workload in a situation that didn't leave much time to begin with. With the runway already in sight, tunnel vision can easily occur https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Hum ... mergencies
...

Overall, a perfect example of Complacency https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Complacency:
Overconfidence
Self-satisfaction
Reduced awareness of danger
State of confidence plus contentment
Low index of suspicion
Unjustified assumption of satisfactory system state
Loss of situation awareness, and unpreparedness to react in timely manner when system fails
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:42 am

TSA125 wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
Didn't PIA crash their inaugural flight back in 1965 at CAI? Maybe they need to start over.


I hardly see how that is relevant to this case...

What's more relevant is their safety record in the 21st century--even within the 2010's. Startling to say the least.

True . They have had 4 passenger planes crashing since 2010 , with more than 400 dead.
Average of 40 passengers dying every year in crashes. Coupled with the low passenger traffic, its shocking.
This might explain it -https://www.brecorder.com/news/40000613/more-than-600-airline-staffers-including-pilots-possess-fake-degrees-reveals-sarwar
"Minister says almost 40 percent pilots have fake licenses and lack flying experience"

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