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zuckie13
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:58 am

Clearly to be the pilots had their heads up their rear ends, but I'm curious about the actual ATC communications - I see the terms "advised to take an orbit" and "advised repeatedly (twice to discontinue the approach and once cautioned) about excessive height". Obviously we don't know the exact words, but I have the question in my mind of how forceful ATC was. I'd like to imagine that in many places (here in the US for example) if I was on an approach like that, it would not be an "advisement" but a solid and forceful "instruction" to make an orbit, or fly some delay vectors, etc based on being well above the published procedure you should be following.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:05 am

zuckie13 wrote:
Clearly to be the pilots had their heads up their rear ends, but I'm curious about the actual ATC communications - I see the terms "advised to take an orbit" and "advised repeatedly (twice to discontinue the approach and once cautioned) about excessive height". Obviously we don't know the exact words, but I have the question in my mind of how forceful ATC was. I'd like to imagine that in many places (here in the US for example) if I was on an approach like that, it would not be an "advisement" but a solid and forceful "instruction" to make an orbit, or fly some delay vectors, etc based on being well above the published procedure you should be following.


Probably not here, either. ATC controllers aren’t pilots and aren’t tasked with making decisions for pilots. That might suggest a vector or ask if the approach can be made, but they wouldn’t issue “instructions”. I’ve been put into “slam dunk” arrivals and asked, “can you make it from there”. You give the controller an honest answer, yes or no.
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:13 am

I'm really shocked about the amount of people including ATC as a contributing factor to this accident. Moreover, I'm surprised at how many people do not understand the roll of air traffic. I guess that's why we're in a position where everyone needs the ATIS.
 
tcfc424
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:42 am

After reading the preliminary report, I am actually quite impressed with the comprehensive nature of the investigation. It appears the investigator in charge is handling things in a systematic and complete approach. Kudos to the investigative team for their diligence and thorough nature of their work.

That said...whisky tango foxtrot. What were these pilots thinking? Where was their mind? Being distracted by the COVID-19 pandemic is one thing, but it seems like they were not in sound mind to be operating a flight, as indicated by their lack of following established protocols and procedures.

My questions moving forward (as I am not a pilot) are:
1) Deployment of and retraction of the MLG...deployment seemed normal and expected, then retraction--while still seemingly in landing config--some have mentioned muscle memory. It was my understanding that to move the MLG to the down position would require a movement of a handle towards the rear of the aircraft, and a selection of gear up would require a movement to the front of the aircraft. If, in the normal course of action, I am deploying the MLG, I would move this lever to the rear. If it is already to the rear, it would not be intuitive to move this lever forward.
2) The selection of reverse thrust. It is my understanding that for reverse thrust to engage, there would need to be weight-on-wheels. Without this, even if selected, the reverse thrust would not activate. [If this happened, the system should be programmed so that W-O-W is required before reverse thrust is activated]
3) 1340m from the threshold. In layman's terms, or imperial units, that equates to roughly 4,000 feet, or 3/4 mile? They almost made it, despite their worst efforts at saving the plane.
4) Further investigation of the flight crews mental acuity is warranted. While not stated, it should be standard (i would think) that flight crew blood and tissue specimens were obtained as soon as possible. Additionally, depending upon the condition of their bodies, it's possible that additional pathological samples were obtained/retained such as stomach contents. Based on known factors, it should be possible to extrapolate with some certainty what their blood-glucose level was at the time of the incident.

As anticipated, through the extensive knowledge provided in this thread, the greatest and most impactful errors were caused/created by the flight crew. It seems to me that ATC, while following seemingly unusual steps, made their case and explained their concern quite clearly. The ultimate responsibility for the flight and the decisions made in respect to the flight, lie with the captain.

The loss of life in this incident is heartbreaking and tragic. It is important to make certain that another, similar, incident doesn't occur. Lessons are available here to be taught and learned. Failing to integrate this into lessons learned/training/culture, would be more tragic that this incident.
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:20 am

tcfc, what makes you think anything will change ?
This is the 4th crash in Pakistan in the last 10 years , with 400 dead.
The ceo is hiding somewhere, not answerable as he is a serving airforce officer. And you are aware the army runs Pakistan, with just a figurehead PM.
The ceo just blames the civilians and carries on.
 
pugman211
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:32 am

My take on this, I wonder if like others gave mentioned is task saturation. The crew extended the speed brakes and lowered the gear to create drag and get them down in order to achieve their end goal of landing. When the time came to retract the speed brakes they also retracted the gear because their mind had linked the speed brake and gear together. I.e. both speed brakes and gear extended at the same time, therefore I must retract both at the same time.

What would the survival rate of been if they had just stayed on the ground and did a belly landing? I understand that they were travelling in excess of 200 knots, but possibly more people might of survived?
 
spacecadet
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:12 am

zuckie13 wrote:
Clearly to be the pilots had their heads up their rear ends, but I'm curious about the actual ATC communications - I see the terms "advised to take an orbit" and "advised repeatedly (twice to discontinue the approach and once cautioned) about excessive height". Obviously we don't know the exact words, but I have the question in my mind of how forceful ATC was. I'd like to imagine that in many places (here in the US for example) if I was on an approach like that, it would not be an "advisement" but a solid and forceful "instruction" to make an orbit, or fly some delay vectors, etc based on being well above the published procedure you should be following.


There are certain instructions ATC can give you "forcefully" and others they really can't, or at least usually wouldn't, even in the US. Controllers don't know the performance characteristics of every plane they're controlling, or even any of them, so they only know what's explicitly legal and what other planes have done. If there wasn't a hard maximum altitude for a given fix on the approach chart, there's not a lot the controllers can really do except give advice based on what they've seen before. It's up to the pilots whether to take that advice or not.

I'm looking right now at the Nawabshah 2A arrival. On that arrival, the instructions just say "On NH R-205, intercept KC R-075 inbound to MAKLI, maintain ATC assigned FL/altitude." So there is no published altitude, and even though a pilot's supposed to tell ATC if they can't make an altitude they've been assigned, ATC will generally give deference to pilots and offer them some kind of alternative even if they don't. Again, the pilots know their plane better than the controller does. Hence the advice rather than the explicit instruction.

In fact, the ILS 25L Y approach, which it seems like is what they were on (there's also an ILS 25 Z, but that uses different fixes), the altitude listed for crossing MAKLI is 8,000 feet. Now, that's assuming a procedure turn outbound, but it is possible that that's what the pilots were expecting. To me, this bit of the report is a little concerning as far as ATC goes:

"The flight was later cleared at pilot’s discretion to report direct MAKLI (a waypoint 15 nautical miles at a radial of 075 from Karachi VOR) and descend to FL100, and later re-cleared for FL50. The aircraft changed over to “Karachi Approach” and was cleared to descend down further to 3000 ft, by the time it reaches MAKLI."

That is a difference of 7,000 feet over the same waypoint on a descent. That would be difficult or impossible under most circumstances, and it's not something that you're going to hear very often. Generally ATC knows that pilots are planning their descents at least somewhat in advance, and you can't just ask an airliner to be 7,000 feet lower in the span of a few minutes when they're already descending. That said, of course it's up to the pilots to simply say "unable".

It definitely seems like the pilots made some pretty major errors here, and it sure seems to me like ATC probably did too. But the errors that ATC made aren't in forcing the plane down faster, but just the opposite. The pilot's first error was in attempting to follow an ATC instruction that they could not. And it just got worse from there.

I'm kind of amazed that the pilots actually did end up intercepting the ILS. They were very fast, of course, but they got on the ILS despite everything. They could have probably made a successful landing if they hadn't retracted the gear, but I don't know the gear extended speed in an A320, and it's possible they knew they were going to be too fast for it. It doesn't seem like they did the landing checklist, so there was no final check on whether or not it ever got put down again.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
AAMDanny
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:05 am

glideslope wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
This happened right at the end of Ramadan, at circa 1440L, is it possible the pilots judgement was impaired by being hungry?

Or is there dispensations for safety critical roles like pilots? That they can have a small snack before operating.

I mean, when I'm hungry I am known to be irrational!



During this observance PIA crew are required to consume a "Sweet Drink and Snack " at pushback. I have always wondered about their blood glucose levels based on the seemingly oblivious communications. 3-4,000' above on approach , No Problem. 7,000' FPS descent, No Problem. Dropping the gear at 260+ kts, No Problem. Hitting TOGA while you're scraping along the pavement on your nacelles, No Problem. Did we ever find out if the PIC was EX Pakistan AF? That could explain some of his "I can do anything" attitude. Unfortunately we will never know their Blood Glucose levels.


Ahh thank you for that I was not aware they could have a small snack and a sugary drink, it was a theory of mine that they was distracted due to hunger/low blood sugar.

That being said, after reading the report 3 times over... I still can't fathom how they managed to get themselves into such a mess. I'm sure a lot of countries will now be evaluating if PIA are safe to be flying over their territories since they obviously have such poor CRM/Human Factors skills onboard.
 
mxaxai
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:11 am

pugman211 wrote:
What would the survival rate of been if they had just stayed on the ground and did a belly landing? I understand that they were travelling in excess of 200 knots, but possibly more people might of survived?

They were staying on the centerline quite well, and the touchdown was soft enough to not rip off the engines. They might have even stopped before the end of the runway, and if not, a potential overrun would have been at low velocity. The major danger would have been a post-crash fire, though the main fuel tanks were not ruptured so a massive fireball like the SSJ in Moscow would have been unlikely. Belly landings are surprisingly survivable (is there even one example that ended in total disaster?).

I think most, if not all people aboard would have survived the belly landing and subsequent evacuation, and the majority even without injuries.
 
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glideslope
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:13 am

AAMDanny wrote:
glideslope wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
This happened right at the end of Ramadan, at circa 1440L, is it possible the pilots judgement was impaired by being hungry?

Or is there dispensations for safety critical roles like pilots? That they can have a small snack before operating.

I mean, when I'm hungry I am known to be irrational!



During this observance PIA crew are required to consume a "Sweet Drink and Snack " at pushback. I have always wondered about their blood glucose levels based on the seemingly oblivious communications. 3-4,000' above on approach , No Problem. 7,000' FPS descent, No Problem. Dropping the gear at 260+ kts, No Problem. Hitting TOGA while you're scraping along the pavement on your nacelles, No Problem. Did we ever find out if the PIC was EX Pakistan AF? That could explain some of his "I can do anything" attitude. Unfortunately we will never know their Blood Glucose levels.


Ahh thank you for that I was not aware they could have a small snack and a sugary drink, it was a theory of mine that they was distracted due to hunger/low blood sugar.

That being said, after reading the report 3 times over... I still can't fathom how they managed to get themselves into such a mess. I'm sure a lot of countries will now be evaluating if PIA are safe to be flying over their territories since they obviously have such poor CRM/Human Factors skills onboard.


I would never, under ANY circumstances fly PIA.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
DH106
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:59 am

Antarius wrote:
An Airbus a320 does not let you forget. Even if you forget, you will be reminded repeatedly and loudly.


I never said they 'forgot' - just that the gear was inadvertently retracted after it's initial deployment. I suspect they were being subjected to many aural warnings which was perhaps why the gear state was overlooked/neglected.
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark by the Tanhauser Gate....
 
orca30
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:26 pm

tcfc424 wrote:
My questions moving forward (as I am not a pilot) are:
1) Deployment of and retraction of the MLG...deployment seemed normal and expected, then retraction--while still seemingly in landing config--some have mentioned muscle memory. It was my understanding that to move the MLG to the down position would require a movement of a handle towards the rear of the aircraft, and a selection of gear up would require a movement to the front of the aircraft. If, in the normal course of action, I am deploying the MLG, I would move this lever to the rear. If it is already to the rear, it would not be intuitive to move this lever forward.


Reminds me of some glider incidents we had in germany. I have heard at least of 1 incident where the pilot forgot to retract the gear after takeoff, flew around happily for 5 hours and then RETRACTED it during landing check.

During the landing preparation, he simply switched the gear to "the other" position without thinking about the direction of the movement.
 
Emirates773ER
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:04 pm

maint123 wrote:
tcfc, what makes you think anything will change ?
This is the 4th crash in Pakistan in the last 10 years , with 400 dead.
The ceo is hiding somewhere, not answerable as he is a serving airforce officer. And you are aware the army runs Pakistan, with just a figurehead PM.
The ceo just blames the civilians and carries on.



What does the CEO and being a past airforce offer have to do with 10 years of incompetence in PIA? These pilots were appointed by civilian governments themselves!
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
whiplash
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:31 pm

As an A320 pilot myself, I was absolutely dumbfounded to see the preliminary report on the PIA crash. Close to 10,000ft at 15NM at 245 knots seems quite excessive. For those who are not familiar with the flying methods and procedures of the Airbus, I am explaining a few things:

1. What's comfortable at 15NM (to touchdown) is probably 4500ft above ground level at 180knots. For runway 25L, the platform altitude for the ILS approach is 2000ft, which is 1900ft above ground level. Airbus recommends taking Flaps configuration 2 by 2000ft AGL, so the aircraft should have been at 160kts in configuration 2 by 6.1 ILS DME when if would have intercepted the glide-path. At 1800ft gear down and then Flaps 3 and Flaps Full. This way the aircraft would have been fully configured by 1500ft and decelerating towards planned approach speed (this is the time you also do your Landing checklist). Following this procedure, the aircraft will easily stabilize by 1000ft, which is usually the height above ground where airline SOPs want you to be stable.

2. The Flap speeds for the A320 are 230Kts for Flaps 1, 200kts for Flaps 2, 185kts for Flaps 3 and 177kts for Flaps Full. Considering they were at Flaps 3 with gear up at 500ft AGL (doing 220kts) sounds demented and completely insane.

3. The landing gear logic doesn't allow the landing gear to extend if indicated airspeed is above 260kts. The maximum extension speed of the gear is 250kts. There have been plenty of times when i have been super high on approach as the controller has changed our sequence in landing. The best way to descend is to reduce speed to 190kts, configure all the way up to Flaps 2, take the gear down and take the speedbrakes. This will give you a very comfortable 3000-3500 feet per minute descent depending on aircraft weight and prevailing weather conditions.

4. I believe someone posted a few comments ago that the pilots might have extended the gear to descend faster and might have mistakenly flipped the level back up when the did the landing checklist (i assume they did the checklist close to 500ft). When you are task overloaded with multiple bells and whistles going off, your hands might end up doing something you did not intend them to do. Usually, pilots catch such a mistake, but in this case, they obviously didn't. I also believe that since the runway at Karachi is long, they were probably doing a Flaps 3 landing, which would explain why they did not take Flaps Full and probably put the gear up while doing the checklist close to 500ft.

5. No, the reversers will not deploy if the landing gear struts are not compressed. However, the thrust levers are not locked in Idle detent and can be moved all the way back to the max reversers with no actual effect.

6. Considering they were descending at 2000fpm at 500ft, they would have still had excessive momentum and airspeed even at touch down. However, the engines would have been at idle the entire time. The engines can take a lot of time to spool up from idle, for this reason, the aircraft is designed to have a separate approach idle rpm. This keeps the idle thrust a little higher than ground idle thrust, which would make for quicker engine spool up in case of a go-around. Even so, the long scrape marks on the runway stand testament to the time it took for them to realize what had happened and the time it would have taken for the engines to spool up.

There are actually a thousand things in my head about the limited facts that have been presented. I still cannot believe these pilots carried on the approach with overspeed, terrain, and gear warnings while coming in that hot. But hey, credit where credit is due, they managed to only touch the engines while scraping on the ground with no damage to the tail section (as seen in pictures). On any other day, this would have been a great piece of gear up landing (if the gear was stuck in the up position), but this was not the day, In my personal opinion, if they would have just tried to stop the aircraft, everyone would have walked away from this accident.

Cheers!
A320 driver
 
Antarius
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:01 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Emirates773ER wrote:
maint123 wrote:
tcfc, what makes you think anything will change ?
This is the 4th crash in Pakistan in the last 10 years , with 400 dead.
The ceo is hiding somewhere, not answerable as he is a serving airforce officer. And you are aware the army runs Pakistan, with just a figurehead PM.
The ceo just blames the civilians and carries on.



What does the CEO and being a past airforce offer have to do with 10 years of incompetence in PIA? These pilots were appointed by civilian governments themselves!


Its not the CEO themselves, but the militaristic culture that permeates the country and airline. Korean Air had a similar issue with military hiererchies and culture wrecking true CRM.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:37 pm

Emirates773ER wrote:
maint123 wrote:
tcfc, what makes you think anything will change ?
This is the 4th crash in Pakistan in the last 10 years , with 400 dead.
The ceo is hiding somewhere, not answerable as he is a serving airforce officer. And you are aware the army runs Pakistan, with just a figurehead PM.
The ceo just blames the civilians and carries on.



What does the CEO and being a past airforce offer have to do with 10 years of incompetence in PIA? These pilots were appointed by civilian governments themselves!

Not past airforce officer . He is a serving airforce officer.
Responsibility must start from the top.
The civilian government is just a puppet government with no real powers.
If you have authority but no responsibility, these issues remain.
 
hinckley
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:12 pm

maint123 wrote:
Not past airforce officer . He is a serving airforce officer.
Responsibility must start from the top.
The civilian government is just a puppet government with no real powers.
If you have authority but no responsibility, these issues remain.

It's a bit unfair to call the civilian government a puppet. The current PM is trying desperately to reform the government. But Pakistan has a long history of military coups (the military has run the country for over half its existence). Every PM knows he or she has the military looking/lurking over their shoulder. So ultimately, any real reform will be slow and will have to have the backing of the military.
 
Ohdear
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:18 pm

Antarius wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
Emirates773ER wrote:
maint123 wrote:
tcfc, what makes you think anything will change ?
This is the 4th crash in Pakistan in the last 10 years , with 400 dead.
The ceo is hiding somewhere, not answerable as he is a serving airforce officer. And you are aware the army runs Pakistan, with just a figurehead PM.
The ceo just blames the civilians and carries on.



What does the CEO and being a past airforce offer have to do with 10 years of incompetence in PIA? These pilots were appointed by civilian governments themselves!


Its not the CEO themselves, but the militaristic culture that permeates the country and airline. Korean Air had a similar issue with military hiererchies and culture wrecking true CRM.


Respectfully, if you would ask most Pakistanis they would advise you that PIAs problems are a result of interference from the two main democratic political parties (PPP and PMLN) that are currently sitting in opposition.

In their prior stints in gov't they've pervasively forced undeserving and unqualified hires into PIA, making it a bloated, loss-making organization.

This current gov't (which comprises of the third main democratic party: PTI, and a relatively nascent one at that), has tried to clean up the historical mess somewhat by hiring a military Air force CEO recently.

If you need any proof to conclude this argument, just look at this news article from a year ago, where the opposition democratic party Senator said:

' “Terminating the service of staff is a drastic action. Nowhere does the Supreme Court order dismiss staff with fake degrees. The court’s directives are to follow procedure under the rules,” said the chairman of the Senate Standing Committee on Aviation, Senator Mushahidullah Khan of the Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N).

He argued that instead of terminating the service of staff possessing fake degrees, other disciplinary action should have been taken, such as demotion or stopping increments.'

https://www.dawn.com/news/1463504

So the need of the hour is to allow these newly appointed CEOs to clear up the mess from past 2-3 decades of undue influence in PIA from democratic parties, rather than what some posters here are suggesting (possibly due to lack of specific knowledge about PIA and Pakistan's democratic parties).

Incidentally the Pakistan military airforce is quite competent at its job, and has a stellar record of defending the country in all wars/confrontations (though obviously the job is different).
 
Texas77
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:43 pm

Thanks whiplash for the detailed explanation and first hand knowledge. I am with those here who have said "I can't believe they actually got the plane back up". Out of the dozens of errors these pilots made, that last one was the truly fatal one.
 
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mtzguerrero
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:02 pm

whiplash wrote:
As an A320 pilot myself, I was absolutely dumbfounded to see the preliminary report on the PIA crash. Close to 10,000ft at 15NM at 245 knots seems quite excessive. For those who are not familiar with the flying methods and procedures of the Airbus, I am explaining a few things:


If ANet's forums had reactions like FB, this post would have a huge ammounts of likes. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
 
o0OOO0oChris
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:05 pm

Texas77 wrote:
Thanks whiplash for the detailed explanation and first hand knowledge. I am with those here who have said "I can't believe they actually got the plane back up". Out of the dozens of errors these pilots made, that last one was the truly fatal one.

That wasn't the last one. Not doing a teardrop going right back and instead of flying back for 25L again. Or not putting it down somewhere else on flat land. Lowering the gear too early wasting few 100m gliding distance...
 
Chaostheory
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:35 pm

SOPs and professionalism aren't something I generally associate with Pakistani airlines or the Pakistani piloting community.

I've touched on this subject before when debating the "new" Pakistani aviation policy. Doesn't matter how old your aircraft are when the vast majority of pilots are deviating from and ignoring SOPs.
 
maint123
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:53 am

hinckley wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Not past airforce officer . He is a serving airforce officer.
Responsibility must start from the top.
The civilian government is just a puppet government with no real powers.
If you have authority but no responsibility, these issues remain.

It's a bit unfair to call the civilian government a puppet. The current PM is trying desperately to reform the government. But Pakistan has a long history of military coups (the military has run the country for over half its existence). Every PM knows he or she has the military looking/lurking over their shoulder. So ultimately, any real reform will be slow and will have to have the backing of the military.

That's what a puppet is . Someone in a prominent post but has negligible powers to do anything. In a normal country, the elected PM has the power over the army not vice versa . He is the puppet to project a soft face to the western world. The west knows it but goes along as Pakistan is a useful country, no questions asked. A democratic leader is not always amenable.
 
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Carlos01
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:06 am

The Twitter -account of PIA would be hilarious, if this topic wasn't dead serious.

https://twitter.com/Official_PIA/status ... 6510461958

So they practically admit that a lot of their pilots have official licenses obtained in corrupt ways. They must have known it already before, also if they have performed any sim-trainings for their pilots, they must have seen also what the pilots are "capable" of.

PIA should be blacklisted immediately everywhere in the world. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already - what is taking so long?
 
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glideslope
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:03 am

AAMDanny wrote:
glideslope wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
This happened right at the end of Ramadan, at circa 1440L, is it possible the pilots judgement was impaired by being hungry?

Or is there dispensations for safety critical roles like pilots? That they can have a small snack before operating.

I mean, when I'm hungry I am known to be irrational!



During this observance PIA crew are required to consume a "Sweet Drink and Snack " at pushback. I have always wondered about their blood glucose levels based on the seemingly oblivious communications. 3-4,000' above on approach , No Problem. 7,000' FPS descent, No Problem. Dropping the gear at 260+ kts, No Problem. Hitting TOGA while you're scraping along the pavement on your nacelles, No Problem. Did we ever find out if the PIC was EX Pakistan AF? That could explain some of his "I can do anything" attitude. Unfortunately we will never know their Blood Glucose levels.


Ahh thank you for that I was not aware they could have a small snack and a sugary drink, it was a theory of mine that they was distracted due to hunger/low blood sugar.

That being said, after reading the report 3 times over... I still can't fathom how they managed to get themselves into such a mess. I'm sure a lot of countries will now be evaluating if PIA are safe to be flying over their territories since they obviously have such poor CRM/Human Factors skills onboard.


One needs to remember that being required to follow a procedure does not equate to 100% compliance in PIA. So, it's possible they had no intake.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
TSA125
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:05 pm

glideslope wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
glideslope wrote:


During this observance PIA crew are required to consume a "Sweet Drink and Snack " at pushback. I have always wondered about their blood glucose levels based on the seemingly oblivious communications. 3-4,000' above on approach , No Problem. 7,000' FPS descent, No Problem. Dropping the gear at 260+ kts, No Problem. Hitting TOGA while you're scraping along the pavement on your nacelles, No Problem. Did we ever find out if the PIC was EX Pakistan AF? That could explain some of his "I can do anything" attitude. Unfortunately we will never know their Blood Glucose levels.


Ahh thank you for that I was not aware they could have a small snack and a sugary drink, it was a theory of mine that they was distracted due to hunger/low blood sugar.

That being said, after reading the report 3 times over... I still can't fathom how they managed to get themselves into such a mess. I'm sure a lot of countries will now be evaluating if PIA are safe to be flying over their territories since they obviously have such poor CRM/Human Factors skills onboard.


One needs to remember that being required to follow a procedure does not equate to 100% compliance in PIA. So, it's possible they had no intake.


Not to say for certain that this was not a factor, but it is not just PIA pilots who fast during the month of Ramadan. What I can say for certain is that there are pilots fasting throughout the world during that month. If this were such a major issue, wouldn't there be more known incidents of pilots getting into harms way due to their "blood glucose levels"...?
No not that TSA.
 
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par13del
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:32 pm

So can a potential outcome of this incident be that landing gear SHOULD NOT BE LOWERED to reduce speed and altitude if an approach is too high / fast?
Yes it has been done countless number of time safely, unfortunately, it only takes one.....with tragic consequences.
 
AAMDanny
Posts: 316
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:22 pm

TSA125 wrote:
glideslope wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:

Ahh thank you for that I was not aware they could have a small snack and a sugary drink, it was a theory of mine that they was distracted due to hunger/low blood sugar.

That being said, after reading the report 3 times over... I still can't fathom how they managed to get themselves into such a mess. I'm sure a lot of countries will now be evaluating if PIA are safe to be flying over their territories since they obviously have such poor CRM/Human Factors skills onboard.


One needs to remember that being required to follow a procedure does not equate to 100% compliance in PIA. So, it's possible they had no intake.


Not to say for certain that this was not a factor, but it is not just PIA pilots who fast during the month of Ramadan. What I can say for certain is that there are pilots fasting throughout the world during that month. If this were such a major issue, wouldn't there be more known incidents of pilots getting into harms way due to their "blood glucose levels"...?


Of course it's not just PIA Pilot's who fast, not just for Ramadan but for other reasons too. But it's a well known fact that blood glucose levels being low can impair judgement.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:05 pm

Texas77 wrote:
Thanks whiplash for the detailed explanation and first hand knowledge. I am with those here who have said "I can't believe they actually got the plane back up". Out of the dozens of errors these pilots made, that last one was the truly fatal one.


That was initially surprising to me, too, but it makes a lot more sense when reading that they were at 220 knots IAS at only 500 feet. Touchdown looks like it was around 200 knots computed airspeed on the chart in the report, and lift off at a little over 150 knots, for what I assume was a light aircraft (moderate passenger load, end of flight fuel load).

Carlos01 wrote:
PIA should be blacklisted immediately everywhere in the world. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already - what is taking so long?


I would normally view such a statement as a knee jerk reaction, but in this case, although the licenses are "issued by the competent authority," it does appear there is serious and compelling doubt about the reciprocally expected training and procedures behind the issuance of those licenses. Analogously, if an an aircraft defect had caused the crash, and if there was compelling evidence the same defect existed in other aircraft of the type, a grounding would be a high likelihood.

I would not be surprised if other nations start revoking their flight permissions soon.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1758
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:10 pm

par13del wrote:
So can a potential outcome of this incident be that landing gear SHOULD NOT BE LOWERED to reduce speed and altitude if an approach is too high / fast?
Yes it has been done countless number of time safely, unfortunately, it only takes one.....with tragic consequences.

No, that would be the wrong conclusion.
A pilot needs to use the available tools to fly safely. One such tool is a checklist to confirm that the current condition of the aircraft is as expected. Another tool is the SOP that demands a go-around if an approach is not stable at a certain altitude. A third tool is the flight management system to help you plan and execute your descent. Aural warnings and ECAM messages can also remind the pilot if something important is overlooked. Good CRM and ATC communications can help you distribute your workload and catch errors.

Using the gear as a speedbrake is safe as long as the crew knows its limits and utilizes their available options to reduce their workload. Reduced workload means more attention to flying the aircraft, which can prevent such simple mistakes. If you feel like you're getting behind the airplane, ask for assistance, fly a 360 or a missed approach, work the checklists, stabilise the aircraft and reset the situation.
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1607
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Re: PIA A320 (flight PK8303) crashes in Karachi

Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:51 pm

TSA125 wrote:
glideslope wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:

Ahh thank you for that I was not aware they could have a small snack and a sugary drink, it was a theory of mine that they was distracted due to hunger/low blood sugar.

That being said, after reading the report 3 times over... I still can't fathom how they managed to get themselves into such a mess. I'm sure a lot of countries will now be evaluating if PIA are safe to be flying over their territories since they obviously have such poor CRM/Human Factors skills onboard.


One needs to remember that being required to follow a procedure does not equate to 100% compliance in PIA. So, it's possible they had no intake.


Not to say for certain that this was not a factor, but it is not just PIA pilots who fast during the month of Ramadan. What I can say for certain is that there are pilots fasting throughout the world during that month. If this were such a major issue, wouldn't there be more known incidents of pilots getting into harms way due to their "blood glucose levels"...?


Depends on any enforcement of policy/procedure and monitoring I would assume. I was singling out PIA as IMO , they are very lackadaisical in all aspects of operational procedures.

The current issues with counterfeit licenses at PIA is typical. IMO.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu

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