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RvA
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:24 pm

Josh76040 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:


I don’t want them investing in foreign enterprises because they’ve gotten a free ride from the US taxpayer on payroll. If their foreign investments go bust, so be it.


Again, are you assuming they gave money to VS? Or what's the deal? Seems like you just have an axe to grind.


I’m a taxpayer. It’s my right to question. If there is the slightest chance of wrongdoing, we have a right to know. I don’t care if the loss of VS cripples Delta. If they have enough money to loan ailing foreign partners, it has money to pay its employees without the help of the taxpayer.


As long as you have all the facts (that I don’t have) I’m sure it makes sense.
 
moa999
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm

A loan forbearance/forgiveness would likely show up as a one-off $160m hit to profit at Delta, but no change in cash position.

These minority foreign investments certainly make things difficult when receiving government cash in the primary country.

We've seen a few move to the exit doors.
Qantas sold (or gave away) it's remaining stake in Jetstar Pacific (now Pacific Airlines) back to Vietnam Airlines.
Tata went to 84% ownership of Air Asia India with a small payment.

Jetstar Australia has taken A320s back from Jetstar Asia (49%) and now Jetstar Japan (33%).
 
SJPBR
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:54 pm

LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:08 pm

According to a message sent to workers LATAM will retire the A350. 7 will be retired today and 4 next week. The message was signed by the CEO.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 3083
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:14 pm

Looks to be true, wow. This seems very sudden and surprising. I guess they’re gonna build around the 787? https://www.aeroin.net/latam-anuncia-re ... ssion=true
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15619
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:16 pm

Likely it is to narrow their maintenance and crewing needs by cutting out a type of aircraft from their fleet, lower overall costs.
 
flymad
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:54 pm

I see some very unhappy lessors in their future. Do they operate the 787? Not as far as I know but am willing to be corrected
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5395
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:56 pm

flymad wrote:
I see some very unhappy lessors in their future. Do they operate the 787? Not as far as I know but am willing to be corrected


LATAM Chile has 22 787s.
 
dougbr2006
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:44 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:57 pm

Seems strange that they are disposing of these young birds and keeping their aging B777`s. Both the A350 & B777 fleets are lsd. Before this LATAM disposed of two lsd A350 which now languish at KVCV alone with some B787`s and A321`s.

Kind of reminds me of the era of Varig, they too started to get rid of their newer aircraft when things started to go wrong, eventually they were flying aircraft held together with band-aids. Let`s hope LATAM doesn`t end up the same.

There was a some news last year that Delta were going to take them off their hands as part of the cash injection, but that was before COVID.

Anyone want to start a long haul airline, sure these will be up for lease at reasonable prices.
 
sk736
Posts: 745
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:47 am

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:58 pm

I think it’s a bit misleading to describe this as retiring an aircraft. The type is being withdrawn, not retired.
 
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Polot
Posts: 11538
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:01 pm

dougbr2006 wrote:
Seems strange that they are disposing of these young birds and keeping their aging B777`s. Both the A350 & B777 fleets are lsd. Before this LATAM disposed of two lsd A350 which now languish at KVCV alone with some B787`s and A321`s.

Cost. Can probably negotiate better pricing on 77W, and possibly use same pilots for 777 and 787 in future.

sk736 wrote:
I think it’s a bit misleading to describe this as retiring an aircraft. The type is being withdrawn, not retired.

There is no difference between an airline “withdrawing” a type vs “retiring” the type. LATAM is apparently removing them from service with no intention of flying them again.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3784
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:10 pm

dougbr2006 wrote:
Seems strange that they are disposing of these young birds and keeping their aging B777`s. Both the A350 & B777 fleets are lsd. Before this LATAM disposed of two lsd A350 which now languish at KVCV alone with some B787`s and A321`s.

Kind of reminds me of the era of Varig, they too started to get rid of their newer aircraft when things started to go wrong, eventually they were flying aircraft held together with band-aids. Let`s hope LATAM doesn`t end up the same.

There was a some news last year that Delta were going to take them off their hands as part of the cash injection, but that was before COVID.

Anyone want to start a long haul airline, sure these will be up for lease at reasonable prices.


The A321s may return. The auction of those frames is conditional, depending on if a bankruptcy court approves lease restructuring. However, 4 B789s (CC-BGE/F/G/H) were given up and are off lease now, as are the former PR-XTA/B. It makes sense to hang onto the B777s as they can have a common pilot crew with the B787s.

I also see the remaining passenger B763s hanging around for a long time with no more conversions to freighters.
 
dougbr2006
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:44 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:17 pm

Polot wrote:
dougbr2006 wrote:
Seems strange that they are disposing of these young birds and keeping their aging B777`s. Both the A350 & B777 fleets are lsd. Before this LATAM disposed of two lsd A350 which now languish at KVCV alone with some B787`s and A321`s.

Cost. Can probably negotiate better pricing on 77W, and possibly use same pilots for 777 and 787 in future.

sk736 wrote:
I think it’s a bit misleading to describe this as retiring an aircraft. The type is being withdrawn, not retired.

There is no difference between an airline “withdrawing” a type vs “retiring” the type. LATAM is apparently removing them from service with no intention of flying them again.


Perhaps so, but with 4 out of the 10 B777`s parked up perhaps we might be seeing the end of LATAM long haul if COVID continues as it is in Brazil. Also most of the B787 fleet is lsd and 4 of them are also parked up.

It`s not just the long haul fleet that`s being cut back a lot of the A320NEOs have also gone back to lessors whilst taking on ex Avianca A320 CEO`s in LATAM Brazil also lsd and there are still quite a few A320`s still parked up throughout the LATAM fleets.

I always said that TAM merging with LAN was a potential demise of a once growing and profitable Brazilian airline.

Here`s hoping they can survive COVID even if they have to shrink back to just a national network.
Last edited by dougbr2006 on Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:22 pm

dougbr2006 wrote:
Polot wrote:
dougbr2006 wrote:
Seems strange that they are disposing of these young birds and keeping their aging B777`s. Both the A350 & B777 fleets are lsd. Before this LATAM disposed of two lsd A350 which now languish at KVCV alone with some B787`s and A321`s.

Cost. Can probably negotiate better pricing on 77W, and possibly use same pilots for 777 and 787 in future.

sk736 wrote:
I think it’s a bit misleading to describe this as retiring an aircraft. The type is being withdrawn, not retired.

There is no difference between an airline “withdrawing” a type vs “retiring” the type. LATAM is apparently removing them from service with no intention of flying them again.


Perhaps so, but with 4 out of the 10 B777`s parked up perhaps we might be seeing the end of LATAM long haul if COVID continues as it is in Brazil. Also most of the B787 fleet is lsd and 4 of them are also parked up.

I always said that TAM merging with LAN was a potential demise of a once growing and profitable Brazilian airline.

Here`s hoping they can survive COVID even if they have to shrink back to just a national network.

They won’t completely remove all the 787s, but they will be a much smaller airline


TAM did themselves no favor with the A350. They got greedy when Brazil was booming and ordered too many with way too aggressive of a delivery schedule.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:30 pm

dougbr2006 wrote:
There was a some news last year that Delta were going to take them off their hands as part of the cash injection, but that was before COVID.


Buying four used LATAM A350s was one of the series of obligations of DL's LATAM equity buy (along with taking over orders for ten new A350s). DL paid $62 million to get out of buying the four used. So, LATAM was angling to move away from A350s even before COVID.

https://onemileatatime.com/delta-latam-a350/
 
gsg013
Posts: 620
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Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:40 pm

Where are these A350 going? I would assume someone will buy/lease these practically new A350-900s?
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2243
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:41 pm

Isn't DL lined up to take them? If not, there is always UA :lol:
 
jayunited
Posts: 3366
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:49 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
Isn't DL lined up to take them? If not, there is always UA :lol:



Mlflyer12 stated DL paid $62 million dollars to get out of buying the 4 used LATAM A350s.

United is out of the question for now, we have no A350 simulators and United's situation with the PW 777s is still up in the air. If for some reason UA were to advance their A359 deliveries I think they would only move up the delivery date by 1 or 2 years max.

Perhaps EK could take them if I'm not mistaken aren't they schedule to start taking delivery of their A359s in 2022 or 2023?
 
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Revelation
Posts: 25793
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Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:00 pm

gsg013 wrote:
Where are these A350 going?

The desert, most likely.

gsg013 wrote:
I would assume someone will buy/lease these practically new A350-900s?

Eventually, perhaps.

For now, both A and B have white tail wide bodies and production holes they'd make some smoking deals on, and lessors have plenty of wide bodies in actual default or in de-facto default that could be harvested in an instant, and new delivery positions looking for takers.

It's an buyer's market.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2822
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:02 pm

jayunited wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
Isn't DL lined up to take them? If not, there is always UA :lol:



Mlflyer12 stated DL paid $62 million dollars to get out of buying the 4 used LATAM A350s.

United is out of the question for now, we have no A350 simulators and United's situation with the PW 777s is still up in the air. If for some reason UA were to advance their A359 deliveries I think they would only move up the delivery date by 1 or 2 years max.

Perhaps EK could take them if I'm not mistaken aren't they schedule to start taking delivery of their A359s in 2022 or 2023?


Crazier things have happened, but it would be quite the waste of $62M if DL were to then decide to acquire the aircraft. Unless we see a very unexpected demand recovery and/or *very* low cost to expedite 767-300ER retirement, I can't see it happening. I'm only leaving the door open because we aren't in normal times and the number of aircraft on the market is changing dynamics - otherwise I'd say absolutely no way.

This seems like a win for Boeing and LATAM will likely add 787s when the time comes. But, I hate to see it happen.

Are these leased (finance or operational)? I imagine LATAM can move to reject in bankruptcy. Edit: here are 7 the company moved to reject leases from Aercap on today - https://cases.primeclerk.com/LATAM/Home ... OA==&id2=0
 
MIflyer12
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:23 pm

Having all three - 77W, 787-9s, and A359s - would have been tough to rationalize for a carrier the size of LATAM in a weakened long-haul market. This is another win for fleet simplicity.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25268
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:30 pm

onwFan wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
17 LATAM aircraft to be sold on “as-is, where-is” basis via public auction to be held on April 14, 2021.

2 - A350-900
4 - 787-9
11 - A321

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/skyworks- ... c-auction/

I wonder why they don’t just retire all the A350s instead and harmonize the fleet across all the subsidiaries around Boeing wide-bodies.


Give this man a prize. You got your wish, and yes it makes business sense.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2822
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:45 pm

Josh76040 wrote:
I don’t care if the loss of VS cripples Delta.


Which would make the US taxpayer's money a complete waste. Interesting you would rather see the US waste money.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:52 pm

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Opus99
Posts: 1955
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:52 pm

jayunited wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
Isn't DL lined up to take them? If not, there is always UA :lol:



Mlflyer12 stated DL paid $62 million dollars to get out of buying the 4 used LATAM A350s.

United is out of the question for now, we have no A350 simulators and United's situation with the PW 777s is still up in the air. If for some reason UA were to advance their A359 deliveries I think they would only move up the delivery date by 1 or 2 years max.

Perhaps EK could take them if I'm not mistaken aren't they schedule to start taking delivery of their A359s in 2022 or 2023?

I agree. I see United steadily adding 787s as their 777s begin to age. Either 78X or 789. Up until the point the replacement number has actually been reached but jay you can correct me if My reasoning doesn’t make sense but if RR gets on the 797 United might pick them and then pull out of the 350 contract since it’s the engine contract that’s the problem. This way RR doesn’t have to lose business
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:54 pm

LATAM BK court docket rejecting A350 leases.

Looks like all are managed by AerCap Ireland Ltd.
https://cases.primeclerk.com/LATAM/Home ... OA==&id2=0
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2822
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:21 pm

LAXintl wrote:
LATAM BK court docket rejecting A350 leases.

Looks like all are managed by AerCap Ireland Ltd.
https://cases.primeclerk.com/LATAM/Home ... OA==&id2=0


I posted above but its only 7 of the aircraft. I think 2 are owned.
 
Antarius
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:22 pm

Why is LA keeping the 77Ws?

Can't the 787 suffice for the forseeable future?
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
SJPBR
Posts: 126
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:36 pm

Antarius wrote:
Why is LA keeping the 77Ws?

Can't the 787 suffice for the forseeable future?


I think that they need 77W for a few GRU routes (MIA, JFK, LHR and FRA).
 
PB26
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:16 am

There are rumors about LATAM Brazil to use B787. They asked to ANAC to fly them, not specially with brazilian registration or interchange with LATAM Chile.
Rio and all South America by Panair do Brasil’s jets.
 
dcajet
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:17 am

PB26 wrote:
There are rumors about LATAM Brazil to use B787. They asked to ANAC to fly them, not specially with brazilian registration or interchange with LATAM Chile.


Didn't ANAC ok'd a similar interchange scheme sometime ago (pre-COVID) with the CC-registered 767s? The 787 interchange should be similar plus training of Brazilian pilots and type certification by the ANAC.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 193
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Re: LATAM A350 Will be retired

Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:23 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Having all three - 77W, 787-9s, and A359s - would have been tough to rationalize for a carrier the size of LATAM in a weakened long-haul market. This is another win for fleet simplicity.



I fully agree. IMO in a few years down the road LATAM, like AM for instance, will be an all Boeing 787 operator. I think the type serves them perfectly and will allow LATAM to operate a very simplified fleet.
 
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MatheusLPV
Posts: 41
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:25 am

We saw that coming ... not big deal here which makes me wonder what is next ?? I don't see LA(JJ) going out of business as some guys here seems to be thrilled about it .
They are fine and will arise from chapter 11 a little smaller but stronger , there is a thorough review that has to be done in the entire operation to make it return to be profitable as soon as possible and the A350 was the elephant in the room since the merger back in 2012. We always knew that JJ was super excited about the A350 but on the other hand the chileans never really wanted it . The A350 chapter has come to an end by now for LATAM and beggins a blank page that LA seems not to be sure how to fill it yet .
I see in the future all the remaing JJ fleet being eventually replaced by 787's , the question is will it be brand new orders or it will come from second hand market as there is some NTU and others frames available around the world .
The 787-8 will probably replace the 76W as the time goes by and some will be converted to freighter . Regarding the
A350-900 they will probably be replaced by the 787-9 and also by the smaller 787-8 but here starts the problem : Which model will replace the 77W ? Maybe with some refines in the 787-10 project it will be a solid cadidate as it is capable of operating GRU-Europe without penalities but is the 787-10 a good replacement for 77W in JJ operation ?(they will have to order the -10 as LA only operates de smaller variants -8 and -9.). Do they really need a plane as bigger as the 77W or a smaller airliner with similar capabilities will be work perfectly fine ?
I really dont see them ordering the 77X ,what are your thoughts?
LA has a brighter future if they manage to understand what they have to do in order to survive this crises , looks like they finally started doing something streamling the fleet , very good move but lets see what comes next ...
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9328
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:31 am

MatheusLPV wrote:
Regarding the
A350-900 they will probably be replaced by the 787-9 and also by the smaller 787-8 but here starts the problem : Which model will replace the 77W ? Maybe with some refines in the 787-10 project it will be a solid cadidate as it is capable of operating GRU-Europe without penalities but is the 787-10 a good replacement for 77W in JJ operation ?(they will have to order the -10 as LA only operates de smaller variants -8 and -9.). Do they really need a plane as bigger as the 77W or a smaller airliner with similar capabilities will be work perfectly fine ?
I really dont see them ordering the 77X ,what are your thoughts?


Anybody who wants to play armchair route planner and do some work might try this: Identify current (better yet: recent historic) 77W and A350 routes too long for a 787-10. Look at historic frequencies and plan how many frames it would would take to serve them.

I expect LA will just use 787-9s. They will increase frequencies where they can, and where they can't they will try to filter out the low fares/cheap freight and just learn to live with a smaller aircraft.
 
PB26
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:09 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:18 pm

dcajet wrote:
PB26 wrote:
There are rumors about LATAM Brazil to use B787. They asked to ANAC to fly them, not specially with brazilian registration or interchange with LATAM Chile.


Didn't ANAC ok'd a similar interchange scheme sometime ago (pre-COVID) with the CC-registered 767s? The 787 interchange should be similar plus training of Brazilian pilots and type certification by the ANAC.

Yes, for ANAC rules, AFAIK, the interchange is applicable for registration.

The 767 CC- were used to routes ex-GRU, like MIA-FOR and MIA-SSA.
Rio and all South America by Panair do Brasil’s jets.
 
onwFan
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:16 pm

This then leads to the question of what routes will be cut. GRU-BCN/MXP/TLV/JNB, LIM-BCN and MIA-FOR/SSA/MAO/REC/EZE are already gone. Is that already worth the 12 aircraft? If not, what next?

I think some of the frequency reductions/changes to the US will also be permanent.
1. LAX-LIM going to 1x daily (the afternoon flight from LAX was usually never full) but LAX-SCL upped to 1x daily
2. LIM-MIA will most likely become 2x daily. Now, they are operating 6x weekly vs AA’s 4x daily.
3. They might up SCL-MIA to 2x daily.
3. Will they cut the MIA-GRU daytime flight? Given that they are not operating it now, it will at least be pushed back for more seasons...
 
hannah9898
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:58 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:00 am

The reason why LA is retiring all A350 is because they are not just at CH11 Bankruptcy, the economy of Brazil etc is now getting much worst too even before the pandemic and it's much more worst now to me. They will be cutting more flights within Brazil right after ending operation in Argentina.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25268
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 07, 2021 3:55 pm

LATAM posted its Q1 numbers. Total revenues down 61.2% to US$913.2 million, with net loss of $430.9 million.

Related LATAM and Boeing entered into an agreement, whereby the parties agreed to terminate orders for four B787 and one B777F aircraft. LATAM will maintain its purchase orders in respect of two additional B787-9s, with proposed delivery dates in December 2021.

http://www.latamairlinesgroup.net/stati ... a5fe50f2fe
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