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sxf24
Topic Author
Posts: 1000
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu May 28, 2020 12:34 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
The LATAM/AA JV was agreed apparently by the Brazilian Government but the Chilean one threw a spanner on it. Then it approved the JV with Delta.

The Brazilian Government seems to have provided a rescue package for LATAM (Brasil only... I presume...) but the Chilean Government did nothing so far.

DL has not helped on the situation (as they did (not) with VS in the UK) but QR is providing support.

LATAM (Chile and... let's say... their subsidiaries) applied for Chapter 11 in the US but LATAM (Brasil and... again... let's say... their subsidiaries) hav stayed out of it.

No complaints or critics but it does seem that LATAM was never really an airline but a set of two flying with the same name/livery and distinct partners.

I wonder if it would not do better if LATAM split into two where the LAN (Chilean side) could ditch Colombia and protect Equador (the only airline there now...) whilst TAM (Brazilian side) could let Argentina go and keep Paraguay (it old TAM Mercosur arm). DL would partner LAN with QR keeping their investment solely with TAM. Dunno where AA would come up to since it has already an agreement with GOL...

Wishful thinking but I feel that the LAN/TAM merger was never a really a good marriage in the end. Two great airlines that were not bound to merge


The Chileans and Brazilians would agree it was not a good marriage. All of the Brazilian management lost their jobs while the Chileans complain about the mess in Brazil they were saddled with. I don’t see the airlines separating as it’s been too long.
 
JJ777
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:27 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu May 28, 2020 1:21 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
The LATAM/AA JV was agreed apparently by the Brazilian Government but the Chilean one threw a spanner on it. Then it approved the JV with Delta.

The Brazilian Government seems to have provided a rescue package for LATAM (Brasil only... I presume...) but the Chilean Government did nothing so far.

DL has not helped on the situation (as they did (not) with VS in the UK) but QR is providing support.

LATAM (Chile and... let's say... their subsidiaries) applied for Chapter 11 in the US but LATAM (Brasil and... again... let's say... their subsidiaries) hav stayed out of it.

No complaints or critics but it does seem that LATAM was never really an airline but a set of two flying with the same name/livery and distinct partners.

I wonder if it would not do better if LATAM split into two where the LAN (Chilean side) could ditch Colombia and protect Equador (the only airline there now...) whilst TAM (Brazilian side) could let Argentina go and keep Paraguay (it old TAM Mercosur arm). DL would partner LAN with QR keeping their investment solely with TAM. Dunno where AA would come up to since it has already an agreement with GOL...

Wishful thinking but I feel that the LAN/TAM merger was never a really a good marriage in the end. Two great airlines that were not bound to merge


The Chileans and Brazilians would agree it was not a good marriage. All of the Brazilian management lost their jobs while the Chileans complain about the mess in Brazil they were saddled with. I don’t see the airlines separating as it’s been too long.


I think this idea will be floated at a certain point. Brazil's federal government seems to be willing to help LATAM Brazil due to it's nationalistic streak but may demand some form of renationalization of LATAM Brazil as a condition for that. If the federal government of Brazil is willing to pay for LATAM Brazil then I think the Chileans will be rejoicing.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu May 28, 2020 3:06 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
What about Europe? does Latam has lot of traffic? who's winning the most with their demise? LH? IB? AF? AZ?


Well, IB and AZ aren't flying to South America for a while.
Nowadays only BA, AF, KL, TP, LH and TK are regulars from Europe. Interesting that KL and LH never cancelled their GRU services for more than 4 days since the beginning of the crisis nor changed the metal or flight nbrs (KL 791/2-77W and LH506/7-748).
AD has been seen flying to LIS last weeks also.
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 768
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu May 28, 2020 4:44 pm

Just some additional information on DL/LA partnership in this Ch. 11 proceedings. https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-air ... ankruptcy/
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu May 28, 2020 6:22 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
What about Europe? does Latam has lot of traffic? who's winning the most with their demise? LH? IB? AF? AZ?


Excuse me, what demise? LATAM's not being liquidated.

Now, Sao Paulo GRU is the main hub to Europe for LATAM. LIM & SCL have 1-2 flights/day to MAD (SCL/LIM) and BCN (LIM). LATAM Chile was supposed to start flying non stop to FRA from SCL in June, but that flight may no longer be on the cards.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
n9801f
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 2:50 am

dcajet wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
What about Europe? does Latam has lot of traffic? who's winning the most with their demise? LH? IB? AF? AZ?


Excuse me, what demise? LATAM's not being liquidated.

Now, Sao Paulo GRU is the main hub to Europe for LATAM. LIM & SCL have 1-2 flights/day to MAD (SCL/LIM) and BCN (LIM). LATAM Chile was supposed to start flying non stop to FRA from SCL in June, but that flight may no longer be on the cards.


That's right, it's a reorganization and thankfully not a liquidation.

However the point remains that MAD is a better hub for Europe-South America flows than GRU. From MAD you have high affinity with Spanish-speaking South America so good local O-D. Also MAD's geography connects more big South America-Europe citypairs than GRU. So you can mount more intercontinental frequencies and spokes from MAD than you can GRU.

This is why IB is such a valuable partner for LATAM. IB-LA enables LA to fly more to MAD. Plus the two together can drive more traffic than either could alone.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 2:57 am

n9801f wrote:

This is why IB is such a valuable partner for LATAM. IB-LA enables LA to fly more to MAD. Plus the two together can drive more traffic than either could alone.


Well, not going to happen any longer. The IB-LA ship has sailed.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
onwFan
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 3:16 am

dcajet wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
What about Europe? does Latam has lot of traffic? who's winning the most with their demise? LH? IB? AF? AZ?


Excuse me, what demise? LATAM's not being liquidated.

Now, Sao Paulo GRU is the main hub to Europe for LATAM. LIM & SCL have 1-2 flights/day to MAD (SCL/LIM) and BCN (LIM). LATAM Chile was supposed to start flying non stop to FRA from SCL in June, but that flight may no longer be on the cards.

Emerging from bankruptcy, LA’s network into Europe is going to be smaller & significantly weaker. I wouldn’t count on BCN with Vueling codeshare disappearing as well, especially if LV/UX launch more from BCN. Like DL, all roads will lead to CDG and AMS. They won’t even have a presence in a trunk route like EZE-MAD.
 
Josh76040
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Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 3:49 am

Many of us at Delta are furious about the failed investments, and know that the LATAM BK spells major trouble for Delta and for us. I wish people would quit trying to spin this as if it’s a positive.

Delta’s failed investments all over the world cost us cash we desperately need right now.
 
nonrevelite
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:44 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 4:28 am

dcajet wrote:
n9801f wrote:

This is why IB is such a valuable partner for LATAM. IB-LA enables LA to fly more to MAD. Plus the two together can drive more traffic than either could alone.


Well, not going to happen any longer. The IB-LA ship has sailed.


Not necessarily; DL controls about 25% of LATAM. Through bankruptcy the debtors and/or owners / investors of the remaining shares may see more value with IB and AA as partners and may have the company go in that direction. ATL, AMS, and CDG are not ideal gateways to South America.
Airlines : 6E 9W AA AC AI AM AQ AT B6 BA BR CI CM CO CX EA EK ET EY FL GF GF HA HP HX JQ K2 K6 KA KE KL KU LO MA MH N7 NH NW OV OZ PE PI QF QR RJ SG TG TK UA UH UL US VS WN YT ZK
Aircraft : Over 60 types including the B-17
Airports : Over 150
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 4:47 am

onwFan wrote:
Emerging from bankruptcy, LA’s network into Europe is going to be smaller & significantly weaker. I wouldn’t count on BCN with Vueling codeshare disappearing as well, especially if LV/UX launch more from BCN. Like DL, all roads will lead to CDG and AMS. They won’t even have a presence in a trunk route like EZE-MAD.


We don't know that their Euro network will be smaller post restructuring, do we? The only route that may be hanging from a thread is FRA on the LATAM Chile side, that lost the MAD-FRA leg and was going to get a non stop from SCL. LATAM Brasil has a robust network (LIS, MAD, BCN, CDG, LHR, FRA, MXP) and we could also include TLV from GRU. We can only speculate.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 5:19 am

nonrevelite wrote:
dcajet wrote:
n9801f wrote:

This is why IB is such a valuable partner for LATAM. IB-LA enables LA to fly more to MAD. Plus the two together can drive more traffic than either could alone.


Well, not going to happen any longer. The IB-LA ship has sailed.


Not necessarily; DL controls about 25% of LATAM. Through bankruptcy the debtors and/or owners / investors of the remaining shares may see more value with IB and AA as partners and may have the company go in that direction. ATL, AMS, and CDG are not ideal gateways to South America.


While stranger things have happened and we are in one of the most uncertain points in time for the airline industry, I highly doubt we will see a reversal of decisions, ie LATAM going back to the AA/IAG side. The Cueto-led team is still in control and I don't see them going back to a place they ran away from. What's done is done. The rest is speculation, pure and simple. And some of it with an axe to grind it seems.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
n9801f
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 6:36 am

Bankruptcy forces hard reckoning and objectivity.

If non-money factors were standing in the way of the most profitable choice, sometimes duress forces a new choice.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 7:01 am

dcajet wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Emerging from bankruptcy, LA’s network into Europe is going to be smaller & significantly weaker. I wouldn’t count on BCN with Vueling codeshare disappearing as well, especially if LV/UX launch more from BCN. Like DL, all roads will lead to CDG and AMS. They won’t even have a presence in a trunk route like EZE-MAD.


We don't know that their Euro network will be smaller post restructuring, do we? The only route that may be hanging from a thread is FRA on the LATAM Chile side, that lost the MAD-FRA leg and was going to get a non stop from SCL. LATAM Brasil has a robust network (LIS, MAD, BCN, CDG, LHR, FRA, MXP) and we could also include TLV from GRU. We can only speculate.


well... for sure the network won't increase post restructuring! every airline (maybe except the crazy FR) will have to restructure and reduce routes to avoid to burn cash flying empty planes. in a couple of years if the economic rout and the virus gone maybe the situation will be different. The fact is noone knows anything about the future, from me to the most paid CEO in the world.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 8:41 am

[code][/code]
flyinghippo wrote:
Just some additional information on DL/LA partnership in this Ch. 11 proceedings. https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-air ... ankruptcy/


You know what is interesting on this post? They show a photo of two LAN aircrafts and speak about Delta's Chilean Partner... What about the profitable Brazilian side?? Guess it just shows the split between them which should be considered...
 
Jomar777
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 8:44 am

Josh76040 wrote:
Many of us at Delta are furious about the failed investments, and know that the LATAM BK spells major trouble for Delta and for us. I wish people would quit trying to spin this as if it’s a positive.

Delta’s failed investments all over the world cost us cash we desperately need right now.


Delta's fault. You could start a thread about Delta's investments (failed and successful) elsewhere. I do know it is a pain but this is a LATAM's thread and we are seeing from LATAM's point of view.

But I somehow sympathize with you even more when I see Virgin Atlantic's plight. Going head on with BA on LHR only will damage them even further.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 8:50 am

sxf24 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
The LATAM/AA JV was agreed apparently by the Brazilian Government but the Chilean one threw a spanner on it. Then it approved the JV with Delta.

The Brazilian Government seems to have provided a rescue package for LATAM (Brasil only... I presume...) but the Chilean Government did nothing so far.

DL has not helped on the situation (as they did (not) with VS in the UK) but QR is providing support.

LATAM (Chile and... let's say... their subsidiaries) applied for Chapter 11 in the US but LATAM (Brasil and... again... let's say... their subsidiaries) hav stayed out of it.

No complaints or critics but it does seem that LATAM was never really an airline but a set of two flying with the same name/livery and distinct partners.

I wonder if it would not do better if LATAM split into two where the LAN (Chilean side) could ditch Colombia and protect Equador (the only airline there now...) whilst TAM (Brazilian side) could let Argentina go and keep Paraguay (it old TAM Mercosur arm). DL would partner LAN with QR keeping their investment solely with TAM. Dunno where AA would come up to since it has already an agreement with GOL...

Wishful thinking but I feel that the LAN/TAM merger was never a really a good marriage in the end. Two great airlines that were not bound to merge


The Chileans and Brazilians would agree it was not a good marriage. All of the Brazilian management lost their jobs while the Chileans complain about the mess in Brazil they were saddled with. I don’t see the airlines separating as it’s been too long.


The Chileans can say whatever they want but the fact remains that the Brazilians always carried more profit and benefited the most with the AA JV. There was not really a mess in Brazil; just a way to run an airline which the Chileans never got round to understand and/or absorb.

They should do like AF and KL and merge that way. Or not merge at all.

I think that the Brazilian Government might be just waiting for the Chilean arm to pop and bring the Brazilian arm to national ownership (not estate but maybe something initially like a mixed partnership at least until a Brazilian Management can be brought to run 100% privatized). It might be possible... as much as for example, a sudden increase of Azul's size towards plugging the gap LATAM will leave if they go under in the end.

Winter is starting in South America and COVID19 will still be there for a while.
 
nonrevelite
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:44 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 12:44 pm

dcajet wrote:
nonrevelite wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Well, not going to happen any longer. The IB-LA ship has sailed.


Not necessarily; DL controls about 25% of LATAM. Through bankruptcy the debtors and/or owners / investors of the remaining shares may see more value with IB and AA as partners and may have the company go in that direction. ATL, AMS, and CDG are not ideal gateways to South America.


While stranger things have happened and we are in one of the most uncertain points in time for the airline industry, I highly doubt we will see a reversal of decisions, ie LATAM going back to the AA/IAG side. The Cueto-led team is still in control and I don't see them going back to a place they ran away from. What's done is done. The rest is speculation, pure and simple. And some of it with an axe to grind it seems.


If they weren’t in Bankruptcy I would agree. If DL alignment was their most profitable path(which it isn’t) that would be the way forward. In bankruptcy everything is on the table.
Airlines : 6E 9W AA AC AI AM AQ AT B6 BA BR CI CM CO CX EA EK ET EY FL GF GF HA HP HX JQ K2 K6 KA KE KL KU LO MA MH N7 NH NW OV OZ PE PI QF QR RJ SG TG TK UA UH UL US VS WN YT ZK
Aircraft : Over 60 types including the B-17
Airports : Over 150
 
onwFan
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 1:16 pm

After all, in the current scenario, it is not even guaranteed that a DL/LA JV will be approved. The competitive landscape has changed significantly since AA/LA announced/filed their JV:-

1. Avianca Peru disappeared, making the AV group no longer a meaningful competitor outside of Colombia/Central america.
2. TAME Ecuador already liquidated. Fate of AV/Ecuador subsidiaries up in the air.
3. LA already was the only major player in Chile.
4. Argentina, although not part of the JV will have both carriers solely partners of DL.

It is probable that the competition to LA in most countries will only be in the form of LCCs with domestic flights. For the point of view of competition, there will be only one meaningful competitor in the form of AA from MIA, which is only one half of the story. DL/LA will have monopoly from JFK and LAX to most the countries. I don’t see how DL/LA will have a good case.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3312
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 7:19 pm

onwFan wrote:
After all, in the current scenario, it is not even guaranteed that a DL/LA JV will be approved. The competitive landscape has changed significantly since AA/LA announced/filed their JV:-

1. Avianca Peru disappeared, making the AV group no longer a meaningful competitor outside of Colombia/Central america.
2. TAME Ecuador already liquidated. Fate of AV/Ecuador subsidiaries up in the air.
3. LA already was the only major player in Chile.
4. Argentina, although not part of the JV will have both carriers solely partners of DL.

It is probable that the competition to LA in most countries will only be in the form of LCCs with domestic flights. For the point of view of competition, there will be only one meaningful competitor in the form of AA from MIA, which is only one half of the story. DL/LA will have monopoly from JFK and LAX to most the countries. I don’t see how DL/LA will have a good case.


The single biggest thing going for the DL-LA JV that killed the AA-LA tie-up is that MIA is easily the biggest U.S.-South America market, and that will remain competitive with a DL-LA JV where it would have been a very near monopoly with an AA-LA JV. The picture at LAX would be virtually the same regardless of which U.S. carrier LA tied up with since no LAX-South America route has more than one airline flying it. If anything, DL-LA would result in less market concentration than AA-LA since AA flies to GRU and EZE and DL doesn't fly to South America from LAX. JFK is also a slightly less concentrated market with DL-LA than it would have been with AA-LA.

So while it's feasible that Chile could still be worried about the share of the overall Chile-U.S. market that would be concentrated in the new JV, the tie up with DL only improves the chances of approval over the proposed JV with AA. The intra-South America dynamics should not matter much to the approval of an intercontinental JV.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
onwFan
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri May 29, 2020 10:15 pm

FSDan wrote:
onwFan wrote:
After all, in the current scenario, it is not even guaranteed that a DL/LA JV will be approved. The competitive landscape has changed significantly since AA/LA announced/filed their JV:-

1. Avianca Peru disappeared, making the AV group no longer a meaningful competitor outside of Colombia/Central america.
2. TAME Ecuador already liquidated. Fate of AV/Ecuador subsidiaries up in the air.
3. LA already was the only major player in Chile.
4. Argentina, although not part of the JV will have both carriers solely partners of DL.

It is probable that the competition to LA in most countries will only be in the form of LCCs with domestic flights. For the point of view of competition, there will be only one meaningful competitor in the form of AA from MIA, which is only one half of the story. DL/LA will have monopoly from JFK and LAX to most the countries. I don’t see how DL/LA will have a good case.


The single biggest thing going for the DL-LA JV that killed the AA-LA tie-up is that MIA is easily the biggest U.S.-South America market, and that will remain competitive with a DL-LA JV where it would have been a very near monopoly with an AA-LA JV. The picture at LAX would be virtually the same regardless of which U.S. carrier LA tied up with since no LAX-South America route has more than one airline flying it. If anything, DL-LA would result in less market concentration than AA-LA since AA flies to GRU and EZE and DL doesn't fly to South America from LAX. JFK is also a slightly less concentrated market with DL-LA than it would have been with AA-LA.

So while it's feasible that Chile could still be worried about the share of the overall Chile-U.S. market that would be concentrated in the new JV, the tie up with DL only improves the chances of approval over the proposed JV with AA. The intra-South America dynamics should not matter much to the approval of an intercontinental JV.

I didn’t mean that a DL/LA JV is more anti-competitive than AA/LA. What I meant is that the competitive landscape has changed significantly when compared to 2-2-3 years ago (or even a few months ago) that it is not justifiable that LA be granted a pan-American ATI with any carrier, especially with regards to Peru & Chile. LA will be the only relevant carrier in both these markets. Ecuador is yet to be seen.

And what with Argentina? They are going to partner with both Aerolineas and LATAM and block all competitive option even from a codeshare/FF point of view?

I am just saying that the factors that led to the AA/LA JV being blocked are not the only competitive concerns right now.

As for intra South America dynamics - It would certainly be a matter from the view of access/connections to domestic destinations within each country covered in the JV (as these will also be part of the JV). Clearly, it looks like there will only be LCCs left in most countries - how many of them even interline?
 
FSDan
Posts: 3312
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Sat May 30, 2020 12:24 am

onwFan wrote:
What I meant is that the competitive landscape has changed significantly when compared to 2-2-3 years ago (or even a few months ago) that it is not justifiable that LA be granted a pan-American ATI with any carrier, especially with regards to Peru & Chile. LA will be the only relevant carrier in both these markets. Ecuador is yet to be seen.


In the U.S.-Peru and U.S.-Chile markets, DL only adds one daily flight in each market above what LA offers (both to ATL, which is largely for connections to medium/small U.S. destinations). Even with AV Peru going away, U.S.-Peru would still have plenty of competition, with AA and UA each offering flights to multiple destinations (including the only service to TX), and B6 and NK also competing in the large Peru-South Florida market. In the U.S.-Chile market, AA would provide competition in the single most important market, with AA and UA offering 1-stop connections to the rest of the U.S. via IAH/DFW/MIA in line with what DL would add to LA's offering through ATL.

onwFan wrote:
And what with Argentina? They are going to partner with both Aerolineas and LATAM and block all competitive option even from a codeshare/FF point of view?


Judging by the rest of this thread up to this point, it sounds like the future of Latam Argentina is pretty uncertain. If they do make it, I would probably expect DL to reduce codesharing with AR. Even if DL ended up codesharing with both LA and AR, they would have 3 daily flights in MIA-EZE vs AA's 2, 1 daily flight in JFK-EZE vs AA's 1, and 1 daily flight in ATL-EZE vs AA's DFW flight and UA's IAH flight. AA also has the 3x weekly LAX-EZE. DL-LA would hardly "dominate" in any given market. Certainly no more than existing immunized JVs in other markets.

onwFan wrote:
As for intra South America dynamics - It would certainly be a matter from the view of access/connections to domestic destinations within each country covered in the JV (as these will also be part of the JV). Clearly, it looks like there will only be LCCs left in most countries - how many of them even interline?


Wouldn't the domestic dynamics be pretty much the same regardless of whether LA-DL get a JV or not? DL and LA surely wouldn't be sharing any costs/revenues on intra-country flights within South America... If you live in a 2nd/3rd tier South American city, you're going to have the same limited options for connections to the U.S. regardless of whether LA and DL are allowed to share revenues/costs on the intercontinental segment. If that's a concern, it seems like LA should be blocked from even codesharing with any U.S. airlines so as not to give an unfair competitive advantage to whichever airline it's codesharing with, no?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Sat May 30, 2020 1:02 am

onwFan wrote:
FSDan wrote:
onwFan wrote:
After all, in the current scenario, it is not even guaranteed that a DL/LA JV will be approved. The competitive landscape has changed significantly since AA/LA announced/filed their JV:-

1. Avianca Peru disappeared, making the AV group no longer a meaningful competitor outside of Colombia/Central america.
2. TAME Ecuador already liquidated. Fate of AV/Ecuador subsidiaries up in the air.
3. LA already was the only major player in Chile.
4. Argentina, although not part of the JV will have both carriers solely partners of DL.

It is probable that the competition to LA in most countries will only be in the form of LCCs with domestic flights. For the point of view of competition, there will be only one meaningful competitor in the form of AA from MIA, which is only one half of the story. DL/LA will have monopoly from JFK and LAX to most the countries. I don’t see how DL/LA will have a good case.


The single biggest thing going for the DL-LA JV that killed the AA-LA tie-up is that MIA is easily the biggest U.S.-South America market, and that will remain competitive with a DL-LA JV where it would have been a very near monopoly with an AA-LA JV. The picture at LAX would be virtually the same regardless of which U.S. carrier LA tied up with since no LAX-South America route has more than one airline flying it. If anything, DL-LA would result in less market concentration than AA-LA since AA flies to GRU and EZE and DL doesn't fly to South America from LAX. JFK is also a slightly less concentrated market with DL-LA than it would have been with AA-LA.

So while it's feasible that Chile could still be worried about the share of the overall Chile-U.S. market that would be concentrated in the new JV, the tie up with DL only improves the chances of approval over the proposed JV with AA. The intra-South America dynamics should not matter much to the approval of an intercontinental JV.

I didn’t mean that a DL/LA JV is more anti-competitive than AA/LA. What I meant is that the competitive landscape has changed significantly when compared to 2-2-3 years ago (or even a few months ago) that it is not justifiable that LA be granted a pan-American ATI with any carrier, especially with regards to Peru & Chile. LA will be the only relevant carrier in both these markets. Ecuador is yet to be seen.

And what with Argentina? They are going to partner with both Aerolineas and LATAM and block all competitive option even from a codeshare/FF point of view?

I am just saying that the factors that led to the AA/LA JV being blocked are not the only competitive concerns right now.

As for intra South America dynamics - It would certainly be a matter from the view of access/connections to domestic destinations within each country covered in the JV (as these will also be part of the JV). Clearly, it looks like there will only be LCCs left in most countries - how many of them even interline?


What you don’t seem to understand is that the JV is for each LA to US market. E.g. Chile to US, Brazil to US, etc. Not about the domestic markets in each. Hence the drastic difference in the combined market shares between LA+DL compared to LA+AA.

What also stumbles me is all the talk about CDG and AMS?! LA and IAG both stated the intent to continue their partnership. Also LA and LHG still have a relatively strong partnership (back from the TAM days). Nothing announced to change their to my knowledge.

Regarding the GRU to EU hub. What always stumbles me is the lack of non-Brazilian “B”-cities (non BUE in Argentina, non SCL in Chile). Those cities are tedious to reach from Europe (and also within SA).
 
onwFan
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Sat May 30, 2020 1:24 am

FSDan wrote:
Wouldn't the domestic dynamics be pretty much the same regardless of whether LA-DL get a JV or not? DL and LA surely wouldn't be sharing any costs/revenues on intra-country flights within South America... If you live in a 2nd/3rd tier South American city, you're going to have the same limited options for connections to the U.S. regardless of whether LA and DL are allowed to share revenues/costs on the intercontinental segment. If that's a concern, it seems like LA should be blocked from even codesharing with any U.S. airlines so as not to give an unfair competitive advantage to whichever airline it's codesharing with, no?


Let me put it this way - Would it be perfectly okay if DL was offered a JV with AF/KL/VS for US-Europe if IAG and LH were not there? Will DL not have an unfair advantage w.r.t secondary destinations in Germany, France, Spain, etc. even though both UA and AA will serve FRA and CDG? Given the current state of things, the only country I see where competitive concerns are minimal is Brazil.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Sat May 30, 2020 1:36 am

DUSZRH wrote:

Regarding the GRU to EU hub. What always stumbles me is the lack of non-Brazilian “B”-cities (non BUE in Argentina, non SCL in Chile). Those cities are tedious to reach from Europe (and also within SA).


COR in Argentina has direct service to Madrid on Air Europa, PUQ on AR, and pretty well covered from the PTY, GRU, SCL & LIM hubs, It just lost non stop service to MIA on AA. ROS supports service to LIM and PTY, MDZ to GRU, LIM & PTY, SLA to PTY. ROS could support direct service to Europe but given the constant yo yo that Argentina's economy is, I doubt it. Lack of profitable demand elsewhere in the country.

Chile's B tier cities don't have the demand.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
onwFan
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Sat May 30, 2020 1:40 am

DUSZRH wrote:
What you don’t seem to understand is that the JV is for each LA to US market. E.g. Chile to US, Brazil to US, etc. Not about the domestic markets in each. Hence the drastic difference in the combined market shares between LA+DL compared to LA+AA.

I am not talking about domestic markets in each. I am talking about flights from US to secondary destinations in Latin America. Isn't Cuzco-US a Peru to US market? LA is the only carrier that provides interline in most countries. And like today, LA's interline fares for UA and AA will not be favorable.

DUSZRH wrote:
What also stumbles me is all the talk about CDG and AMS?! LA and IAG both stated the intent to continue their partnership. Also LA and LHG still have a relatively strong partnership (back from the TAM days). Nothing announced to change their to my knowledge.

IB's codeshares on LA flights seem to be zeroed out beyond October, and only Avianca codeshares remain. I sincerely doubt LA's codeshare on IB flights will remain much longer - I take that relationship is coming to an end. Which is why I alluded an AF/KL partnership, which DL will probably secure for LA in the absence of IAG. In any case, I think the UX acquisition pretty much put an end to the LA partnership.

DUSZRH wrote:
Regarding the GRU to EU hub. What always stumbles me is the lack of non-Brazilian “B”-cities (non BUE in Argentina, non SCL in Chile). Those cities are tedious to reach from Europe (and also within SA).

[/quote]
Not sure I fully understand this statement - were you trying to say that GRU is good enough a hub for LA or not? The latter would support my point.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Sun May 31, 2020 2:59 pm

From Enrila’s thread. Looks like more cuts.

LA BEL-MIA JUL 0.3>0[0]
LA BOS-GRU JUL 0.7>0[0]
LA FOR-MIA JUL 0.7>0[0]
LA GRU-JFK JUL 1.0>0.4[0]
LA GRU-MCO JUL 1.4>0[0]
LA GRU-MIA JUL 2>1.0[0]
LA JFK-LIM JUL 1.0>0.5[1.0]
LA JFK-SCL JUL 1.0>0[1.0]
LA LAX-LIM JUL 1.7>0.2[1.7]
LA LAX-SCL JUL 1.0>0[0.7]
LA LIM-MCO JUL 1.0>0[1.0]
LA LIM-MIA JUL 3>0.5[2]
LA MIA-SCL JUL 1.4>1.0[1.7
 
FSDan
Posts: 3312
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:09 am

onwFan wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Wouldn't the domestic dynamics be pretty much the same regardless of whether LA-DL get a JV or not? DL and LA surely wouldn't be sharing any costs/revenues on intra-country flights within South America... If you live in a 2nd/3rd tier South American city, you're going to have the same limited options for connections to the U.S. regardless of whether LA and DL are allowed to share revenues/costs on the intercontinental segment. If that's a concern, it seems like LA should be blocked from even codesharing with any U.S. airlines so as not to give an unfair competitive advantage to whichever airline it's codesharing with, no?


Let me put it this way - Would it be perfectly okay if DL was offered a JV with AF/KL/VS for US-Europe if IAG and LH were not there? Will DL not have an unfair advantage w.r.t secondary destinations in Germany, France, Spain, etc. even though both UA and AA will serve FRA and CDG? Given the current state of things, the only country I see where competitive concerns are minimal is Brazil.


I would argue that the secondary destinations of Peru and Chile are not nearly as important from a population, demographic, and economic perspective as the secondary destinations of Germany, Spain, and France are. Lima and Santiago each account for +/- a third of the entire population of their respective countries, and probably a much larger proportion of the economic output and wealth. As long as there's competition in these primate city markets (especially to the most important destination - Miami), I don't think there will be too many concerns about the JV being anti-competitive.

Also, even with three JVs in the transatlantic market, there are still plenty of secondary/tertiary destinations that are only served by one of the three.
There doesn't seem to have been a lot of concern about small German and Austrian markets like Paderborn, Munster, or Linz only being served by the LH-UA-AC JV.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:33 am

Boof02671 wrote:
From Enrila’s thread. Looks like more cuts.

LA BEL-MIA JUL 0.3>0[0]
LA BOS-GRU JUL 0.7>0[0]
LA FOR-MIA JUL 0.7>0[0]
LA GRU-JFK JUL 1.0>0.4[0]
LA GRU-MCO JUL 1.4>0[0]
LA GRU-MIA JUL 2>1.0[0]
LA JFK-LIM JUL 1.0>0.5[1.0]
LA JFK-SCL JUL 1.0>0[1.0]
LA LAX-LIM JUL 1.7>0.2[1.7]
LA LAX-SCL JUL 1.0>0[0.7]
LA LIM-MCO JUL 1.0>0[1.0]
LA LIM-MIA JUL 3>0.5[2]
LA MIA-SCL JUL 1.4>1.0[1.7


Looks like MCO and BOS are suspended for the time being as well as NE Brazil to MIA on the LATAM Brazil side, JFK and LAX from SCL and MCO from LIM. In any case keep in mind that most likely Peru will be closed until September, so all services from LIM may not operate until then.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:43 am

According to the court fillings and news articles online, LATAM is going to return 19 aircraft and renegotiate other 129 aircraft with the lessors:

Will be returned to the lessors:

Airbus A319
PR-MAL

Airbus A320
PR-MAZ

Airbus A321
PT-XPM, PT-XPN, PT-XPQ, PT-XPJ, PT-XPL, CC-BEE, CC-BEF, CC-BEG, CC-BEH, CC-BEI, CC-BEJ

Airbus A350XWB
PR-XTA, PR-XTB

Boeing 787-9
CC-BGE, CC-BGF, CC-BGG, CC-BGH

Will have the leasing renegotiated:

Airbus A319
PR-MAL, PT-TML, PT-MBV, PT-MZY, CC-COZ, CC-CPE, CC-CPJ, CC-CPL, CC-CPM, CC-CPO, CC-CPX

Airbus A320ceo
PR-TYD, PR-TYD, PR-TYI, PR-TYJ, PR-TYK, PR-TYL, PR-TYM, PR-TYN, PR-TYO, PR-TYO, PR-TYQ, PR-TYR, PR-MBT, PR-MBO, PR-MAK, PR-MAG, PR-MZY, PR-MZW, PR-MZZ, CC-BFR, CC-BFT, CC-BFU, CC-BFV, CC-BDA, CC-BDB, CC-BDC, CC-BAQ, CC-BAW, CC-BAX, CC-CCO, LV-BRA, LV-BSJ, LV-BRY, LV-GLP, LV-BOI, LV-BHU, LV-CQS, LV-BTM, LV-BFY, LV-BGI, LV-BGO

Airbus A320neo
PR-XBB, PR-XBC, PR-XBD, PR-XBE, PR-XBF, CC-BHE

Airbus A321
PT-MXN, PT-MXL, PT-MXO, PT-MXQ, PT-MXP, PT-XPA, PT-XPB, PT-XPH, PT-XPI, PT-XPC, PT-XPD, PT-XPE, PT-XPF, PT-XPG,PT-XPO, CC-BEA, CC-BEB, CC-BEC, CC-BED, CC-BEK, CC-BEM, CC-BEO, CC-BEL, CC-BEN, CC-BEP, CC-BEQ, CC-BER

Airbus A350XWB
PR-XTC, PR-XTD, PR-XTE, PR-XTI, PR-XTH, PR-XTM

Boeing 767-300ER
PT-MOA, PT-MOE, PT-MOF, PT-MSZ, CC-CXD, CC-CXE, CC-CXF, CC-CXG, CC-CXH

Boeing 767-300ERF
N418LA (Chile), PR-ABD

Boeing 777-300ER
PT-MUE, PT-MUG, PT-MUH

Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner
CC-BBA, CC-BBB, CC-BBC
 
solracfunk14
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:10 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:32 pm

ojjunior wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
What about Europe? does Latam has lot of traffic? who's winning the most with their demise? LH? IB? AF? AZ?


Well, IB and AZ aren't flying to South America for a while.
Nowadays only BA, AF, KL, TP, LH and TK are regulars from Europe. Interesting that KL and LH never cancelled their GRU services for more than 4 days since the beginning of the crisis nor changed the metal or flight nbrs (KL 791/2-77W and LH506/7-748).
AD has been seen flying to LIS last weeks also.


TP it's not regular
 
danipawa
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:53 pm

Boeing 767 ‑316 26329** 641 CC-BJA Latam ferried 09-10jun20 SCL-MIA-GYR, for SF Airlines as N239SA, for freighter conversion ex LV-BMR

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
 
danipawa
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:09 pm

LATAM Argentina closed: 13 A320 in fleet

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/economia/no ... nid2381063
Last edited by danipawa on Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:09 pm

LATAM just announced the cessation of the LATAM Argentina's operations, both for passengers and cargo, for an indefinite period

News article in English
https://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/lata ... he-country

Press release in Spanish:
https://www.latam.com/es_ar/prensa/comu ... terminado/

Not a surprising move by LATAM since LATAM Argentina was the biggest money in of the the LATAM group for a number of years.
 
danipawa
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:52 pm

Airbus A320 -232 1652 PR-MBQ Latam Brasil ferried 24/26jun20 RAO-CNF-BAQ on return to lessor ex N533JB
Airbus A320 -232 1802 PR-MBR Latam Brasil ferried 23/25jun20 GIG-CNF-BAQ on return to lessor ex N542JB
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:08 pm

LATAM announced today that the following LATAM Chile routes are being suspended:

Domestic

* Concepcion - Punta Arenas
* Antofagasta - Concepcion
* Antofagasta - La Serena
* La Serena - Calama
* Santiago - Osorno
* Santiago - Puerto Natales
* Santiago - Castro

International from Santiago SCL

* Brasilia
* Curitiba
* Florianopolis
* Rio de Janeiro
* Porto Alegre
* Mendoza
* Melbourne
* Punta Cana
* Cancun
* Cuzco
* Punta del Este
* Quito
* Papeete

From Lima

* Concepcion
* Calama

From Iquique

* Salta

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/lat ... esde-Chile
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14469
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:26 pm

dcajet wrote:
LATAM announced today that the following LATAM Chile routes are being suspended:

Domestic

* Concepcion - Punta Arenas
* Antofagasta - Concepcion
* Antofagasta - La Serena
* La Serena - Calama
* Santiago - Osorno
* Santiago - Puerto Natales
* Santiago - Castro

International from Santiago SCL

* Brasilia
* Curitiba
* Florianopolis
* Rio de Janeiro
* Porto Alegre
* Mendoza
* Melbourne
* Punta Cana
* Cancun
* Cuzco
* Punta del Este
* Quito
* Papeete

From Lima

* Concepcion
* Calama

From Iquique

* Salta

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/lat ... esde-Chile


So, this leaves MHC with no service and (combined with the elimination of 4M) MDZ, PNT, and ZOS with no LATAM service, right?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:44 pm

Albeit temporarily (one hopes), sad to see PPT go away. LAN Chile had been operating the route since the 70s. For years, it was the original route to Australia from South America, connecting with QANTAS at PPT, until the Southern Seas route was inaugurated by AR in the early 80s.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:50 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LATAM announced today that the following LATAM Chile routes are being suspended:

Domestic

* Concepcion - Punta Arenas
* Antofagasta - Concepcion
* Antofagasta - La Serena
* La Serena - Calama
* Santiago - Osorno
* Santiago - Puerto Natales
* Santiago - Castro

International from Santiago SCL

* Brasilia
* Curitiba
* Florianopolis
* Rio de Janeiro
* Porto Alegre
* Mendoza
* Melbourne
* Punta Cana
* Cancun
* Cuzco
* Punta del Este
* Quito
* Papeete

From Lima

* Concepcion
* Calama

From Iquique

* Salta

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/lat ... esde-Chile


So, this leaves MHC with no service and (combined with the elimination of 4M) MDZ, PNT, and ZOS with no LATAM service, right?


Re: MDZ, yes. at least temporarily. Interesting, now I can understand why SKY Airline said yesterday they have no plans to reduce or drop services to Argentina. They will have a monopoly on the route now.

Can't speak to Chile.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14469
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:56 pm

dcajet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LATAM announced today that the following LATAM Chile routes are being suspended:

Domestic

* Concepcion - Punta Arenas
* Antofagasta - Concepcion
* Antofagasta - La Serena
* La Serena - Calama
* Santiago - Osorno
* Santiago - Puerto Natales
* Santiago - Castro

International from Santiago SCL

* Brasilia
* Curitiba
* Florianopolis
* Rio de Janeiro
* Porto Alegre
* Mendoza
* Melbourne
* Punta Cana
* Cancun
* Cuzco
* Punta del Este
* Quito
* Papeete

From Lima

* Concepcion
* Calama

From Iquique

* Salta

https://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/lat ... esde-Chile


So, this leaves MHC with no service and (combined with the elimination of 4M) MDZ, PNT, and ZOS with no LATAM service, right?


Re: MDZ, yes. at least temporarily. Interesting, now I can understand why SKY Airline said yesterday they have no plans to reduce or drop services to Argentina. They will have a monopoly on the route now.

Can't speak to Chile.


It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out for H2. For the O&D passenger, SCL-MDZ is an easy (and scenic) bus ride; flying probably only saves most passengers a couple of hours at most. So it seems like the advantage LA should have had on the route was their powerful hub at SCL.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:15 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

So, this leaves MHC with no service and (combined with the elimination of 4M) MDZ, PNT, and ZOS with no LATAM service, right?


Re: MDZ, yes. at least temporarily. Interesting, now I can understand why SKY Airline said yesterday they have no plans to reduce or drop services to Argentina. They will have a monopoly on the route now.

Can't speak to Chile.


It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out for H2. For the O&D passenger, SCL-MDZ is an easy (and scenic) bus ride; flying probably only saves most passengers a couple of hours at most. So it seems like the advantage LA should have had on the route was their powerful hub at SCL.


The bus trip can be a bit problematic in the winter time when huge snow storms close down the Andes passes between Argentina and Chile; additionally there is the inconvenience of 2 immigration and customs checks at the border, so a 300 km ride can end up taking its sweet time. Sometimes the waiting time at the border can take hours, particularly if Argentinians descend "en masse" for weekend shopping trips in Santiago. Definitely the plane saves travelers precious time on this route - it is like a 30 minute flight.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:22 pm

LATAM received Court approval to return up to 111 aircraft to their lessors if it so chooses. The airline has to notify lessors 5 days in advance of its intentions over a rolling 30-day period. Aircraft included are (most likely includes all LATAM Argentina's fleet, which are the oldest A320s in the fleet, early 2000s builds).

8 787-8
12 787-9
21 763ER
2 763F
3 773ER
17 A319
31 A320
9 A321
7 A350-900

https://simpleflying.com/latam-return-a ... lexibility
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
danipawa
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:29 pm

PUJ is a very strong market...
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:18 am

danipawa wrote:
PUJ is a very strong market...


They will still serve it from LIM. No need, with the present dismal demand, to serve it from SCL too.

All LATAM is doing here is concentrating traffic via the LIM hub (CUN/UIO/PUJ/CUZ) and via the GRU hub (all points within Brazil).

Too bad for MEL and PPT, but both were top of the list for the axe.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:51 am

Much as it was done at SCL, LATAM reduces all Argentina - Brazil flying to the Buenos Aires EZE - Sao Paulo GRU route.

Buenos Aires, 24 de junio de 2020 -- LATAM Airlines Group anuncian la suspension temporal de algunas rutas desde Brasil. Chile y Peru hacia Cordoba, Mendoza, Rosario, Salta y Tucuman como consecuencia de la caida de la demanda a raiz del COVID-19

Solo las rutas que operan desde Buenos Aires a Lima, San Pablo y Santiago proyectan su reanudacion sujeto a las restricciones de vuelo de cada pais


Goodbye GIG, BSB and a few other NE Brazil cities.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
guillelds
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:20 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:21 am

Which one is the next in queue? Your bets upon the table!!
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:24 am

dcajet wrote:
Much as it was done at SCL, LATAM reduces all Argentina - Brazil flying to the Buenos Aires EZE - Sao Paulo GRU route.

Buenos Aires, 24 de junio de 2020 -- LATAM Airlines Group anuncian la suspension temporal de algunas rutas desde Brasil. Chile y Peru hacia Cordoba, Mendoza, Rosario, Salta y Tucuman como consecuencia de la caida de la demanda a raiz del COVID-19

Solo las rutas que operan desde Buenos Aires a Lima, San Pablo y Santiago proyectan su reanudacion sujeto a las restricciones de vuelo de cada pais


Goodbye GIG, BSB and a few other NE Brazil cities.


Ooof, I was sort of expecting at least GIG-EZE to hold on given the importance of the two cities. It makes sense in the current conditions to consolidate international flying at the hubs I suppose. Though for the same reason I would have thought BSB might hold. Once the pandemic really begins to pass this could be a slight boon for Gol as they will have no direct competition on BSB-EZE and have to compete only with AR on GIG-EZE.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
dcajet
Posts: 4682
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:50 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Much as it was done at SCL, LATAM reduces all Argentina - Brazil flying to the Buenos Aires EZE - Sao Paulo GRU route.

Buenos Aires, 24 de junio de 2020 -- LATAM Airlines Group anuncian la suspension temporal de algunas rutas desde Brasil. Chile y Peru hacia Cordoba, Mendoza, Rosario, Salta y Tucuman como consecuencia de la caida de la demanda a raiz del COVID-19

Solo las rutas que operan desde Buenos Aires a Lima, San Pablo y Santiago proyectan su reanudacion sujeto a las restricciones de vuelo de cada pais


Goodbye GIG, BSB and a few other NE Brazil cities.


Ooof, I was sort of expecting at least GIG-EZE to hold on given the importance of the two cities. It makes sense in the current conditions to consolidate international flying at the hubs I suppose. Though for the same reason I would have thought BSB might hold. Once the pandemic really begins to pass this could be a slight boon for Gol as they will have no direct competition on BSB-EZE and have to compete only with AR on GIG-EZE.


Internationally speaking, LATAM had pretty much given up on Rio de Janeiro last year when they canned their remaining connections to MIA and MCO. Only EZE and SCL were left, so not really surprising. GIG-EZE should return when demand picks up; a no brainer. It may not be until well into 2021.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
User avatar
MatheusLPV
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:01 am

dcajet wrote:
LATAM received Court approval to return up to 111 aircraft to their lessors if it so chooses. The airline has to notify lessors 5 days in advance of its intentions over a rolling 30-day period. Aircraft included are (most likely includes all LATAM Argentina's fleet, which are the oldest A320s in the fleet, early 2000s builds).

8 787-8
12 787-9
21 763ER
2 763F
3 773ER
17 A319
31 A320
9 A321
7 A350-900

https://simpleflying.com/latam-return-a ... lexibility


LA should take advantage of this decision and try to standardize the JJ fleet removing the A350 and replacing with those 787 about to leave the fleet ...
I guess is quite tricky to return brand new aircrafts right away , we don't know how long to last all this pandemic and at the end you will have an aging fleet needing replacement .....better save the 787's and ditch the A350 ,777 and 767.
Anyone knows if it is possible to transfer the newly retrofitted interiores os the 777 to the 787 ?? They spend a lot of money on those birds and they have a pretty decent hard product .
 
Jomar777
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Updated: LATAM files for Bankruptcy

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:15 am

dcajet wrote:
LATAM received Court approval to return up to 111 aircraft to their lessors if it so chooses. The airline has to notify lessors 5 days in advance of its intentions over a rolling 30-day period. Aircraft included are (most likely includes all LATAM Argentina's fleet, which are the oldest A320s in the fleet, early 2000s builds).

8 787-8
12 787-9
21 763ER
2 763F
3 773ER
17 A319
31 A320
9 A321
7 A350-900

https://simpleflying.com/latam-return-a ... lexibility


Surely they will refrain from returning any B777-300ERs (???) it is the backbone for their international routes from GRU which, pre-COVID19 were quite profitable. I do believe the A359s on the list might go since that would cater for a reduction on their (Brazilian...) fleet as well as the fact that they've got some that never really flew with them (i.e. the 6 that spent quite a good time flying around for Qatar Airways...).
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos