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Polot
Posts: 10516
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Delta Pays $62m to Cancel purchase of 4 used A350s from LATAM

Wed May 27, 2020 4:43 pm

Antarius wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Actually no. The burden of proof lies with you, not someone asserting that someone who bought planes intends to use them.

Save for a lessor, that's true basically 100% of the time. So the absence of evidence does not need justification. Your theory does.


The old "burden of proof" diversion. First, I've already supported my argument to call the status quo into question and sent the ball into the other court. Second, the burden of proof here should be with those under a false premise that because DL agreed to purchase the airplanes, it means that they intended to operate them. Obviously that is not the only reason to acquire airplanes, particularly when engaging in an equity stake in a new partner under duress. So what we have here is a belief that has been turned into a pseudo-fact without the external supporting evidence to do so. So let's see your evidence supporting the belief that DL intended to operate them, and let's measure the two sides up.


Yes, the burden of proof argument. What stops us from just saying anything. For example, if I claimed you were Ted Bundy, wouldn't I need to prove it?

Please cite examples of non lessors who bought airplanes and did not operate them and never intended to. I can bury you in lists of people who did operate their purchases.

Your move, Ted.

While I do agree with you that DL intended to operate the used A350s, Delta has actually “bought” brand new 737-800s and used E190s that they never actually operated (in both cases planes were immediately sold to someone else after contractual delivery and never painted in DL livery). Delta also assumed the leases of some of Gol‘s 767 with no plan to use them (they were just parked for remainder of lease term) and have bought various airplanes solely for parts.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2160
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Delta Pays $62m to Cancel purchase of 4 used A350s from LATAM

Wed May 27, 2020 4:48 pm

Polot wrote:
Antarius wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

The old "burden of proof" diversion. First, I've already supported my argument to call the status quo into question and sent the ball into the other court. Second, the burden of proof here should be with those under a false premise that because DL agreed to purchase the airplanes, it means that they intended to operate them. Obviously that is not the only reason to acquire airplanes, particularly when engaging in an equity stake in a new partner under duress. So what we have here is a belief that has been turned into a pseudo-fact without the external supporting evidence to do so. So let's see your evidence supporting the belief that DL intended to operate them, and let's measure the two sides up.


Yes, the burden of proof argument. What stops us from just saying anything. For example, if I claimed you were Ted Bundy, wouldn't I need to prove it?

Please cite examples of non lessors who bought airplanes and did not operate them and never intended to. I can bury you in lists of people who did operate their purchases.

Your move, Ted.

While I do agree with you that DL intended to operate the used A350s, Delta has actually “bought” brand new 737-800s and used E190s that they never actually operated (in both cases planes were immediately sold to someone else after contractual delivery and never painted in DL livery). Delta also assumed the leases of some of Gol‘s 767 with no plan to use them (they were just parked for remainder of lease term) and have bought various airplanes solely for parts.


Exactly. They have done odd things with used frames in the past, but it's not their most common behavior following the acquisition of used birds and the sequence of events this time doesn't suggest that it was the plan here.
 
n9801f
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta Pays $62m to Cancel purchase of 4 used A350s from LATAM

Wed May 27, 2020 5:23 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta stubed their toe in buying these four A350s. Now Delta is trying to heal the owie. The fox outfoxed itself. I wonder if any heads will roll? :old:


You could also ask that question about the Delta investment of $2.3B in LATAM.

It's a lot of money to lose.

And the outcome is not unforeseeable.

SAS lost its investment in Continental in a bankruptcy, Swissair lost the whole company (liquidation) after making bad investments in other airlines, Iberia - Aerolineas, Air New Zealand - Ansett, and many others.

It's a long list.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta Pays $62m to Cancel purchase of 4 used A350s from LATAM

Wed May 27, 2020 5:46 pm

IADCA wrote:
Polot wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Yes, the burden of proof argument. What stops us from just saying anything. For example, if I claimed you were Ted Bundy, wouldn't I need to prove it?

Please cite examples of non lessors who bought airplanes and did not operate them and never intended to. I can bury you in lists of people who did operate their purchases.

Your move, Ted.

While I do agree with you that DL intended to operate the used A350s, Delta has actually “bought” brand new 737-800s and used E190s that they never actually operated (in both cases planes were immediately sold to someone else after contractual delivery and never painted in DL livery). Delta also assumed the leases of some of Gol‘s 767 with no plan to use them (they were just parked for remainder of lease term) and have bought various airplanes solely for parts.


Exactly. They have done odd things with used frames in the past, but it's not their most common behavior following the acquisition of used birds and the sequence of events this time doesn't suggest that it was the plan here.


Agree. The overwhelming odds are that they operate the fleet they purchase. If they weren't, we'd need clear evidence to show that.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
cessna2
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: Delta Pays $62m to Cancel purchase of 4 used A350s from LATAM

Wed May 27, 2020 5:57 pm

DL saved $500 million In this deal while providing money to LATAM that’ll help them through their bankruptcy.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Delta Pays $62m to Cancel purchase of 4 used A350s from LATAM

Thu May 28, 2020 12:48 am

If the rumor in this other thread Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350's from QR (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1446845) is true, we may know why DL wants to get rid of the 4 used A350s from LATAM.

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