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N717TW
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 12:51 pm

LJ wrote:
klkla wrote:
I just don't see the point in this. If Delta wants 350's that bad I'm sure they could get them on their own without Qatar's help. Unless Qatar is paying Delta to take them, which doesn't make sense either. Qatar could just defer them.


Unless QR doesn't need them anymore and doesn't want to pay any cancellation fee (if there is any).


Airlines do this all the time--in some cases the airlines/leasing companies that ran quickly to lock in new aircraft delivery slots were buying for two reasons -- to have jets for expansion and have slots to sell to other airlines that need aircraft but weren't willing to commit to large orders.

Also we don't know the exact deal. This could be QR selling jet delivery slots for jets it doesn't foresee needing in the next 5-7 years or it could be Airbus cutting a deal with QR to delay the QR delivery slots and selling new aircraft to DL.

Lest we not all forget that DL spent the Aughts selling 737NG slots it had from its "Exclusive vendor agreement" with Boeing from the 90s; talking delivery of very few of the 737s it had on order post 9/11.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 1:12 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Uh, hello? If recipients of CARES Act Payroll Support can’t provide capital to their investments, how could they go commit $1B to airplanes they don’t need? I see a desperate attempt to create a narrative.

Purchasing aircraft is a normal part of business.

CARES suspends dividends and stock buybacks.

What we need to ask is when might these deliveries be? The 18 retired 777s will eventually be replaced.

Whomever orders aircraft now will probably receive the best deal. Probably saving hundreds of millions (euros or dollars).

Airlines that can buy should. But they shouldn't schedule deliveries before 2022.

Lightsaber
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 1:21 pm

lightsaber wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Uh, hello? If recipients of CARES Act Payroll Support can’t provide capital to their investments, how could they go commit $1B to airplanes they don’t need? I see a desperate attempt to create a narrative.

Purchasing aircraft is a normal part of business.

CARES suspends dividends and stock buybacks.

What we need to ask is when might these deliveries be? The 18 retired 777s will eventually be replaced.

Whomever orders aircraft now will probably receive the best deal. Probably saving hundreds of millions (euros or dollars).

Airlines that can buy should. But they shouldn't schedule deliveries before 2022.

Lightsaber

That said there are PR considerations that need to be made about when to announce any new orders.

CARES act funds may only be for payroll and in a separate account but it is not like the general public knows all that. You have to consider optics of taking a billion dollars of public money then ordering a bunch of new planes especially from a European manufacturer- it doesn’t matter if Airbus has a lot of US parts or US FALs, again most of the general public doesn’t know that.

So if this rumor ends up being true I would expect DL to be rather low key about the order for awhile. I also suspect that is one of the reasons why the LATAM A350 order transfer is under “undisclosed” and not Delta.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 1:53 pm

catiii wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
After receiving billions is US aid and then turns around and buys a European jet .... while we know that airlines should buy what’s best for them , the optics on this will be terrible. Hope Trump doesn’t get word , I can already see his twitter post ...

Except 100% of the funds are for payroll support. Payroll support through the CARES Act sits in a segregated account specific for just that, payroll support. It is also audited. There's no way to spend it on CAPEX.

Pure semantics. Putting money in the payroll account means you don't have to shift money into it from the remaining cash positive accounts and/or sell assets so you can use cash/assets to buy aircraft because CARES filled the payroll account. If Congress wanted to ban new capital spend as a condition of CARES they could have, but that would damage other industries.

IWMBH wrote:
Well I haven’t seen any legitimate source, so I don’t about this. This deal seem weird to me because of multiple reasons.

But, "the time to buy is when there's blood in the streets." DL might be using these bad times to improve their positions for when the market returns to normal. Cheap fuel efficient planes can help them with that.

The way I heard it was "Never waste a good crisis!".
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kiowa
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 2:01 pm

onwFan wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
It is a Rumour so not much is known. DL needs A350s so it can retire their B777s.It is best to buy those as Airbus' slots because if avoids conversion and refurbishment costs. QR might have theirs on a deliver schedule that is the best for DL and do not want them.

All very feasible but we will only know once it is formally published. Obviously UA's A350s are gone so no joy there. Who knows? Maybe Airbus broke this deal to avoid losing QR's ones?

But I think that the story ends here. Nothing to deal with fleecing QR to an Alliance it does not want to join (if they ever leave OW will be not to join any other alliance probably...) neither cosy them up in regards to DL's participation in LATAM (which will probably become a different monster once they are through their Chapter 11 process for their Chilean arm...)


Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.

Except UA does not fly ORD-HKG anymore.[/quote

HKG is a mess but none of the major airlines are flying much international right now. I hope China straightens out HKG relations and UAL starts ORD HKG up again.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 2:42 pm

I think the rumor is true DL needs to replace the 777-200LR with more A350s, the 777-200ER can be replaced with the A330-900
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 3:59 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
I smell DL trying to bring QR into their fold. Would not bode well for OneWorld.


Both together can buy majority stake in IAG, Delta(UK) would get control of LHR hub.


OK, I'll bite. Care to elaborate? Interesting fantasy at the very least.

chunhimlai wrote:
Is it a signal that QR takeovers DL and we will see Qatari American Airline


How do you see this unfolding? What does the scenario and sequence of events look like?
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n9801f
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 4:45 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
Delta(UK) would get control of LHR hub.


I think you underestimate BA.

Delta is tough, but I think BA would outmaneuver DL in a QR-BA-DL setup if needed.

If DL overplayed its hand, you might get Colonial BA before you got any Delta UK.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 5:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Uh, hello? If recipients of CARES Act Payroll Support can’t provide capital to their investments, how could they go commit $1B to airplanes they don’t need? I see a desperate attempt to create a narrative.

Purchasing aircraft is a normal part of business.

CARES suspends dividends and stock buybacks.

What we need to ask is when might these deliveries be? The 18 retired 777s will eventually be replaced.

Whomever orders aircraft now will probably receive the best deal. Probably saving hundreds of millions (euros or dollars).

Airlines that can buy should. But they shouldn't schedule deliveries before 2022.

Lightsaber


I’ve confirmed that neither purchasing aircraft nor providing additional capital into an investment are prohibited by the CARES Act Payroll Support. If Delta wanted to invest more in LATAM it could. Delta could also buy more wide bodies, which would certainly be a good deal. Both transactions are of dubious value and carry significant political risks.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 5:31 pm

phxa340 wrote:
After receiving billions is US aid and then turns around and buys a European jet .... while we know that airlines should buy what’s best for them , the optics on this will be terrible. Hope Trump doesn’t get word , I can already see his twitter post ...

Imagine the tweet when they canceled the 787 order in favor of the 359
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 6:49 pm

onwFan wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:


Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.

Except UA does not fly ORD-HKG anymore.


They dont fly a lot of routes right now. Does not mean it won't come back. IRC it was a profitable route with a lot of cargo.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm

Wouldn't surprise me too much as QR is a LATAM stakeholder, and also signed an agreement with them not a month before they dumped OW and went with DL, in-fact LATAM's executive board held their annual meeting in Doha at the time, that's how close they are.

Delta already deals with Ethiad since they have a stake in VA, as much as people want to make out the bad-3 or something, Emirates was also DL's caterer at DXB.

Full circle things.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 7:47 pm

Lootess wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me too much as QR is a LATAM stakeholder, and also signed an agreement with them not a month before they dumped OW and went with DL, in-fact LATAM's executive board held their annual meeting in Doha at the time, that's how close they are.


And just afterwards, it is the same QR that upped its stake in IAG to 25%, started a JV with BA on Europe-Australia, and announced a strategic partnership with AA. What is there to get carried away so much?
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 7:51 pm

DCA350 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.

Except UA does not fly ORD-HKG anymore.


They dont fly a lot of routes right now. Does not mean it won't come back. IRC it was a profitable route with a lot of cargo.

UA did not drop ORD-HKG ‘now’. They suspended it in Aug 2019 citing ‘low travel demand from Chicago’ and at the same time upping SFO-HKG to 2x daily. Not linked to covid.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 8:45 pm

cessna2 wrote:
Rumor from a reliable source says DL is set to acquire the 7 A350’s QR currently has on order. I’m sure more details will be released in the coming days. If true this would explain the $62 million paid to LATAM to let go of the 4 used frames. Ed has said it would’ve costed more to refurbish the jets than to order directly from Airbus. Thoughts?

yes! Delta would have saved the $62M and More in NOT buying those Jets and getting new ones off the line. First? They get them in their configuration with their choice of galleys Lavs and seat configuration. Second? they get the cockpit and cabin system to their liking as the jets have yet to be built. Third? they do not have to dispose of anyone else's trash in galleys Seats and sidewalls or even overhead Passenger service units or Bins, then? they don't have to transition the Maintenance program and research any Service bulletins nor AD notes. They start with a clean slate to their Maintenance program. Buying used jets is NOT for the feint of heart. You'd better know what you're doing and be ready for the expense and Pitfalls. I'm not even a Delta Fan and I can say they did OK.
 
Super88
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 8:48 pm

Didn't DL take over some of LATAM's A350 orders but has now canceled them due to the downturn. Then how can they take A350's from another airline, won't it be just as costly when airlines are doing everything they can to cut costs and keep out going cash as low as possible.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 8:57 pm

klkla wrote:
I just don't see the point in this. If Delta wants 350's that bad I'm sure they could get them on their own without Qatar's help. Unless Qatar is paying Delta to take them, which doesn't make sense either. Qatar could just defer them.

QR has already paid the down payment on the airplanes for Airbus to even slot them in . Delta is more than likely taking them minus the down payment so QR will not be on the hook for any progress payments on the building of the jets.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 9:02 pm

Super88 wrote:
Didn't DL take over some of LATAM's A350 orders but has now canceled them due to the downturn. Then how can they take A350's from another airline, won't it be just as costly when airlines are doing everything they can to cut costs and keep out going cash as low as possible.


Not really, to take LATAM frames DL has to lineup finances now, QR slots are in the future with potential to push them out with very little upfront cost.
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 9:07 pm

Super88 wrote:
Didn't DL take over some of LATAM's A350 orders but has now canceled them due to the downturn. Then how can they take A350's from another airline, won't it be just as costly when airlines are doing everything they can to cut costs and keep out going cash as low as possible.


DL has not cancelled any A350 orders. They have paid a penalty to not take four of LATAM’s delivered frames, but they have taken over 10 of LATAM’s undelivered frames.
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Thu May 28, 2020 11:41 pm

Skyliner Aviation has this: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

A7-AMA and A7-AMB to CNF and to Delta in Q3. Three other QR A350s also on the move (A7-AQA/B/C) but listed as not for DL.
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jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 12:03 am

scbriml wrote:
Super88 wrote:
Didn't DL take over some of LATAM's A350 orders but has now canceled them due to the downturn. Then how can they take A350's from another airline, won't it be just as costly when airlines are doing everything they can to cut costs and keep out going cash as low as possible.


DL has not cancelled any A350 orders. They have paid a penalty to not take four of LATAM’s delivered frames, but they have taken over 10 of LATAM’s undelivered frames.


Sorry if this sounds pedantic, but just to clarify there are no frames undelivered that DL is taking. DL assumed an order (using whatever legal mechanism DL, LATAM, and Airbus agreed upon) for A35Js and converted to A359s.
 
cessna2
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 12:30 am

gdg9 wrote:
Skyliner Aviation has this: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

A7-AMA and A7-AMB to CNF and to Delta in Q3. Three other QR A350s also on the move (A7-AQA/B/C) but listed as not for DL.

Q3 2020 is sooner than I expected. But perfect timing for when the 777s retire. The A350’s burn 20% less fuel than the 777s. Smart move to on the fleet planning department’s part.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 12:46 am

cessna2 wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
Skyliner Aviation has this: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

A7-AMA and A7-AMB to CNF and to Delta in Q3. Three other QR A350s also on the move (A7-AQA/B/C) but listed as not for DL.

Q3 2020 is sooner than I expected. But perfect timing for when the 777s retire. The A350’s burn 20% less fuel than the 777s. Smart move to on the fleet planning department’s part.


DL cancelled the 4 from LATAM so I don't think Skyliner is correct here - probably information didn't update because the cancellation just happened this week.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 1:55 am

gdg9 wrote:
Skyliner Aviation has this: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

A7-AMA and A7-AMB to CNF and to Delta in Q3. Three other QR A350s also on the move (A7-AQA/B/C) but listed as not for DL.


A7-AMA/A7-AMB are the frames originally built for LATAM. These are two of the four aircraft that Delta just paid the $60M cancellation fee to not take a few days ago; QR has been operating them on a leased basis for a while.

The planes Delta is rumored to be interested in are new build A350 orders that would shift from QR to DL before being manufactured by Airbus
 
Jomar777
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 8:35 am

DCA350 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
It is a Rumour so not much is known. DL needs A350s so it can retire their B777s.It is best to buy those as Airbus' slots because if avoids conversion and refurbishment costs. QR might have theirs on a deliver schedule that is the best for DL and do not want them.

All very feasible but we will only know once it is formally published. Obviously UA's A350s are gone so no joy there. Who knows? Maybe Airbus broke this deal to avoid losing QR's ones?

But I think that the story ends here. Nothing to deal with fleecing QR to an Alliance it does not want to join (if they ever leave OW will be not to join any other alliance probably...) neither cosy them up in regards to DL's participation in LATAM (which will probably become a different monster once they are through their Chapter 11 process for their Chilean arm...)


Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.


Good point but I wonder if they would not order the B777X instead gpoing opposite DL's way and consolidating with Boeing. They only ordered the A321XLR because Boeing had nothing to show against and because it was a caveat to be able to get rid of the A350 order.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 10:04 am

Jomar777 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
It is a Rumour so not much is known. DL needs A350s so it can retire their B777s.It is best to buy those as Airbus' slots because if avoids conversion and refurbishment costs. QR might have theirs on a deliver schedule that is the best for DL and do not want them.

All very feasible but we will only know once it is formally published. Obviously UA's A350s are gone so no joy there. Who knows? Maybe Airbus broke this deal to avoid losing QR's ones?

But I think that the story ends here. Nothing to deal with fleecing QR to an Alliance it does not want to join (if they ever leave OW will be not to join any other alliance probably...) neither cosy them up in regards to DL's participation in LATAM (which will probably become a different monster once they are through their Chapter 11 process for their Chilean arm...)


Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.


Good point but I wonder if they would not order the B777X instead gpoing opposite DL's way and consolidating with Boeing. They only ordered the A321XLR because Boeing had nothing to show against and because it was a caveat to be able to get rid of the A350 order.


A couple of things:

If the A321XLR order was a means to get out of the A350 order, why has it not been cancelled? Also: 50 XLRs won't compensate for the loss of 45 A350 orders for Airbus.
 
DCA350
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 11:34 am

Jomar777 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
It is a Rumour so not much is known. DL needs A350s so it can retire their B777s.It is best to buy those as Airbus' slots because if avoids conversion and refurbishment costs. QR might have theirs on a deliver schedule that is the best for DL and do not want them.

All very feasible but we will only know once it is formally published. Obviously UA's A350s are gone so no joy there. Who knows? Maybe Airbus broke this deal to avoid losing QR's ones?

But I think that the story ends here. Nothing to deal with fleecing QR to an Alliance it does not want to join (if they ever leave OW will be not to join any other alliance probably...) neither cosy them up in regards to DL's participation in LATAM (which will probably become a different monster once they are through their Chapter 11 process for their Chilean arm...)


Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.


Good point but I wonder if they would not order the B777X instead gpoing opposite DL's way and consolidating with Boeing. They only ordered the A321XLR because Boeing had nothing to show against and because it was a caveat to be able to get rid of the A350 order.


Possible but why order a larger aircraft. They already downsized from the A350K, 777X as a 777E replacement would be overkill.
 
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gdg9
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 12:19 pm

bcbhokie wrote:
gdg9 wrote:
Skyliner Aviation has this: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2

A7-AMA and A7-AMB to CNF and to Delta in Q3. Three other QR A350s also on the move (A7-AQA/B/C) but listed as not for DL.


A7-AMA/A7-AMB are the frames originally built for LATAM. These are two of the four aircraft that Delta just paid the $60M cancellation fee to not take a few days ago; QR has been operating them on a leased basis for a while.

The planes Delta is rumored to be interested in are new build A350 orders that would shift from QR to DL before being manufactured by Airbus


Interesting, thanks for the update. Well I suppose somebody will take these frames!
@dfwtower
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 1:35 pm

Polot wrote:
So if this rumor ends up being true I would expect DL to be rather low key about the order for awhile. I also suspect that is one of the reasons why the LATAM A350 order transfer is under “undisclosed” and not Delta.


It's no secret that DL had planned to take over a LATAM order for ten new A350 frames.

It was in Delta's first LATAM equity transaction press release in Sept. '19: https://news.delta.com/delta-and-latam- ... t-americas

It was repeatedly in the Annual report published 2/20, under details of the LATAM transaction, under details of equity investments, under equity method investments, under Commitments and Contingencies.

In the 1Q20 10Q filing they said they had done it: As part of our planned strategic alliance with LATAM, we have also
agreed to acquire four A350 aircraft from LATAM and have assumed ten of LATAM's A350 purchase commitments with Airbus for deliveries through 2025.


As a publicly-traded U.S. company one can't hide a $2 Billion capital commitment. DL hasn't tried. If DL commits to a bunch of A350s from QR (or anybody!), it will be disclosed in press releases and SEC filings on a timely basis.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 4:49 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Polot wrote:
So if this rumor ends up being true I would expect DL to be rather low key about the order for awhile. I also suspect that is one of the reasons why the LATAM A350 order transfer is under “undisclosed” and not Delta.


It's no secret that DL had planned to take over a LATAM order for ten new A350 frames.

It was in Delta's first LATAM equity transaction press release in Sept. '19: https://news.delta.com/delta-and-latam- ... t-americas

It was repeatedly in the Annual report published 2/20, under details of the LATAM transaction, under details of equity investments, under equity method investments, under Commitments and Contingencies.

In the 1Q20 10Q filing they said they had done it: As part of our planned strategic alliance with LATAM, we have also
agreed to acquire four A350 aircraft from LATAM and have assumed ten of LATAM's A350 purchase commitments with Airbus for deliveries through 2025.


As a publicly-traded U.S. company one can't hide a $2 Billion capital commitment. DL hasn't tried. If DL commits to a bunch of A350s from QR (or anybody!), it will be disclosed in press releases and SEC filings on a timely basis.


You are assuming it is a $2B capital commitment. Its very possible the deal was structured as a lease or some other financing mechanism, which would not be deemed information requiring an 8K.
 
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coronado
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 5:28 pm

jbs2886 wrote:


You are assuming it is a $2B capital commitment. Its very possible the deal was structured as a lease or some other financing mechanism, which would not be deemed information requiring an 8K.


Committing to acquire aircraft in the future whether paid in cash, or financed with a loan, or financed with a lease is still a capital commitment and is a material financial event which has to be disclosed.

In fact under the new accounting rules all leases are now above the line balance sheet items for US corporations, and it makes no difference if it is an operating lease greater than 1 year duration or a capital lease. Previously they had to be disclosed in a footnote, but now they are actual balance sheet items.
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jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 6:37 pm

coronado wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:


You are assuming it is a $2B capital commitment. Its very possible the deal was structured as a lease or some other financing mechanism, which would not be deemed information requiring an 8K.


Committing to acquire aircraft in the future whether paid in cash, or financed with a loan, or financed with a lease is still a capital commitment and is a material financial event which has to be disclosed.

In fact under the new accounting rules all leases are now above the line balance sheet items for US corporations, and it makes no difference if it is an operating lease greater than 1 year duration or a capital lease. Previously they had to be disclosed in a footnote, but now they are actual balance sheet items.


Note I specifically referenced an 8K. For example, United ordered additional 7 787s during Q1, but those orders were not disclosed until the quarter end.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Fri May 29, 2020 11:25 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
Imagine the tweet when they canceled the 787 order in favor of the 359

Then imagine the next day when the tweet is forgotten because there's been six more.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 12:43 am

DL should have a look at VN's A359, too.
I am wondering about those airframes role in VN's fleet, especially when the 78X is coming.

Not the whole fleet, just some of them. In other word, VN has a surplus number of A359.
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 1:09 am

Antaras wrote:
DL should have a look at VN's A359, too.
I am wondering about those airframes role in VN's fleet, especially when the 78X is coming.

Not the whole fleet, just some of them. In other word, VN has a surplus number of A359.


They didn’t take LATAM’s due to reconfiguration cost, so I doubt they’ll take some from VN but never say never if the price is low enough.
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marcelh
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 3:38 am

Antaras wrote:
VN has a surplus number of A359.

Has VN also made this statement?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 6:27 am

Antaras wrote:
DL should have a look at VN's A359, too.
I am wondering about those airframes role in VN's fleet, especially when the 78X is coming.

Not the whole fleet, just some of them. In other word, VN has a surplus number of A359.


They only have 10, right? Would be strange to get rid of 3-4, surely better to just keep them all or get rid of them all? I reckon 2-3 are capable of being upgraded to 208T, which could be quite important.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 7:53 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Antaras wrote:
DL should have a look at VN's A359, too.
I am wondering about those airframes role in VN's fleet, especially when the 78X is coming.

Not the whole fleet, just some of them. In other word, VN has a surplus number of A359.


They only have 10, right? Would be strange to get rid of 3-4, surely better to just keep them all or get rid of them all? I reckon 2-3 are capable of being upgraded to 208T, which could be quite important.

They have fourteen.

Unknown if VN will upgrade those frames to ULR ver, but remember that VN leases all the 359 and VN might not want any expensive upgrade.
Last edited by Antaras on Sat May 30, 2020 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 7:54 am

marcelh wrote:
Antaras wrote:
VN has a surplus number of A359.

Has VN also made this statement?


VN put some A359 on lease even before the pandemic.
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Lootess
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 5:28 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Super88 wrote:
Didn't DL take over some of LATAM's A350 orders but has now canceled them due to the downturn. Then how can they take A350's from another airline, won't it be just as costly when airlines are doing everything they can to cut costs and keep out going cash as low as possible.


DL has not cancelled any A350 orders. They have paid a penalty to not take four of LATAM’s delivered frames, but they have taken over 10 of LATAM’s undelivered frames.


Sorry if this sounds pedantic, but just to clarify there are no frames undelivered that DL is taking. DL assumed an order (using whatever legal mechanism DL, LATAM, and Airbus agreed upon) for A35Js and converted to A359s.


There are two A350s being built for Delta in Toulouse right now. N514DN-N515DN
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sat May 30, 2020 8:19 pm

Antaras wrote:
Unknown if VN will upgrade those frames to ULR ver

....rather easily known, since that's not a service that's offered.

Would be pointless anyway even if it was, seeing as a standard 280T A359 could easy hit anywhere on the US/Canadian west coast from both SGN and HAN.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Sun May 31, 2020 1:23 am

Lootess wrote:
There are two A350s being built for Delta in Toulouse right now. N514DN-N515DN


I'm not sure what your point is. IIRC these are aircraft DL ordered as part of the original 25.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:16 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.


Good point but I wonder if they would not order the B777X instead gpoing opposite DL's way and consolidating with Boeing. They only ordered the A321XLR because Boeing had nothing to show against and because it was a caveat to be able to get rid of the A350 order.


A couple of things:

If the A321XLR order was a means to get out of the A350 order, why has it not been cancelled? Also: 50 XLRs won't compensate for the loss of 45 A350 orders for Airbus.


Why it has not been cancelled? Trend is that Airbus will always push hard to avoid order cancellation. Note that Emirates could not simply cancel their A380s when last time discussing. Ended up with some A350s and A330neos on the list. Add that United probably is looking to replace their old B757s and the only hting in the market that can provide what they might be looking for is the A321XLR... Airbus has not recovered all the losses on UA 350 cancellation but at leats mitigated the costs.

If Boeing had an alternative for the A321XLR, I believe that UA would have gone for it (maybe even as a launch partner) and canned the A350 for whatever fees Airbus would throw (probably with help of Boeing to do one over Airbus...)
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:52 am

Jomar777 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
It is a Rumour so not much is known. DL needs A350s so it can retire their B777s.It is best to buy those as Airbus' slots because if avoids conversion and refurbishment costs. QR might have theirs on a deliver schedule that is the best for DL and do not want them.

All very feasible but we will only know once it is formally published. Obviously UA's A350s are gone so no joy there. Who knows? Maybe Airbus broke this deal to avoid losing QR's ones?

But I think that the story ends here. Nothing to deal with fleecing QR to an Alliance it does not want to join (if they ever leave OW will be not to join any other alliance probably...) neither cosy them up in regards to DL's participation in LATAM (which will probably become a different monster once they are through their Chapter 11 process for their Chilean arm...)


Interesting that UA's A350s are gone even though they have expanded the order 3 times.. Something will have to replace that huge fleet of 777ERs over the next decade. Sure 787s will replace some but it's very likely the A350s take over the heavy lifting routes that can't handle the capacity of the 777W, ORD to HKG for instance.


Good point but I wonder if they would not order the B777X instead gpoing opposite DL's way and consolidating with Boeing. They only ordered the A321XLR because Boeing had nothing to show against and because it was a caveat to be able to get rid of the A350 order.

In as much as I think the 777X is a great aircraft it might be a bit much for the needs of UA
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:05 am

Jomar777 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:

Good point but I wonder if they would not order the B777X instead gpoing opposite DL's way and consolidating with Boeing. They only ordered the A321XLR because Boeing had nothing to show against and because it was a caveat to be able to get rid of the A350 order.


A couple of things:

If the A321XLR order was a means to get out of the A350 order, why has it not been cancelled? Also: 50 XLRs won't compensate for the loss of 45 A350 orders for Airbus.


Why it has not been cancelled? Trend is that Airbus will always push hard to avoid order cancellation. Note that Emirates could not simply cancel their A380s when last time discussing. Ended up with some A350s and A330neos on the list. Add that United probably is looking to replace their old B757s and the only hting in the market that can provide what they might be looking for is the A321XLR... Airbus has not recovered all the losses on UA 350 cancellation but at leats mitigated the costs.

If Boeing had an alternative for the A321XLR, I believe that UA would have gone for it (maybe even as a launch partner) and canned the A350 for whatever fees Airbus would throw (probably with help of Boeing to do one over Airbus...)


If they’ve got an order as compensation then Airbus takes the cancellation and the fees... but that cancellation has not happened. If the order is the compensation then surely it should be cancelled. Not as if UA doesn’t have an excuse now.
 
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:05 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:

Good point but I wonder if they would not order the B777X instead gpoing opposite DL's way and consolidating with Boeing. They only ordered the A321XLR because Boeing had nothing to show against and because it was a caveat to be able to get rid of the A350 order.


A couple of things:

If the A321XLR order was a means to get out of the A350 order, why has it not been cancelled? Also: 50 XLRs won't compensate for the loss of 45 A350 orders for Airbus.


Why it has not been cancelled? Trend is that Airbus will always push hard to avoid order cancellation. Note that Emirates could not simply cancel their A380s when last time discussing. Ended up with some A350s and A330neos on the list. Add that United probably is looking to replace their old B757s and the only hting in the market that can provide what they might be looking for is the A321XLR... Airbus has not recovered all the losses on UA 350 cancellation but at leats mitigated the costs.

If Boeing had an alternative for the A321XLR, I believe that UA would have gone for it (maybe even as a launch partner) and canned the A350 for whatever fees Airbus would throw (probably with help of Boeing to do one over Airbus...)

One sticking point with switching the order from the A350 to A321XLR would be RR losing out £'s on the engines.
 
sxf24
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Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:14 pm

Breathe wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

A couple of things:

If the A321XLR order was a means to get out of the A350 order, why has it not been cancelled? Also: 50 XLRs won't compensate for the loss of 45 A350 orders for Airbus.


Why it has not been cancelled? Trend is that Airbus will always push hard to avoid order cancellation. Note that Emirates could not simply cancel their A380s when last time discussing. Ended up with some A350s and A330neos on the list. Add that United probably is looking to replace their old B757s and the only hting in the market that can provide what they might be looking for is the A321XLR... Airbus has not recovered all the losses on UA 350 cancellation but at leats mitigated the costs.

If Boeing had an alternative for the A321XLR, I believe that UA would have gone for it (maybe even as a launch partner) and canned the A350 for whatever fees Airbus would throw (probably with help of Boeing to do one over Airbus...)

One sticking point with switching the order from the A350 to A321XLR would be RR losing out £'s on the engines.


That’s why it hasn’t happened yet.

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